Is CAC changing market opinion on dipping?
abitofthisabitofthat
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OK, I realize that CAC threads can get controversial. I am not looking to get into the pros and cons of CAC's business model, and certainly not the impact, if any, on PCGS. I just want to talk about dipping.
Dipping (if done properly) is not a reason that PCGS will not grade a coin. However, some prominent dealers almost never seemed to carry white coins in their inventory a few years ago- especially black and white proofs. Since CAC has been putting their sticker on coins, I see that some of these dealers now regularly carry white coins if they bear JAs approval. JA has said that he has no problem with dipping.
So, has anyone else noticed this? Is this really a change in market perception of white coins? Or just that certain dealers are expanding their range of inventory in response to CAC?
Dipping (if done properly) is not a reason that PCGS will not grade a coin. However, some prominent dealers almost never seemed to carry white coins in their inventory a few years ago- especially black and white proofs. Since CAC has been putting their sticker on coins, I see that some of these dealers now regularly carry white coins if they bear JAs approval. JA has said that he has no problem with dipping.
So, has anyone else noticed this? Is this really a change in market perception of white coins? Or just that certain dealers are expanding their range of inventory in response to CAC?
merse
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I know here in the mid west there has always been a thing for white coins. I used to be one of them. The first dealer I delt with dipped most of his silver coin inventory before it went into his cases because that's what sold. (1977)
I have been converted, to liking them the way they come, but I continue to purchase white coins along with others. I prefer unmolested coins, but sometimes you just have to go with the flow.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
I agree.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If a coin is overdipped or looks striped, it will not command nearly as much.
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<< <i>I have not seen any change over the last several years. Dipping is market acceptable, and some folks prefer dipped coins. I do not believe that PCGS or CAC approval has had any impact. >>
I agree.
<< <i>I have not seen any change over the last several years. Dipping is market acceptable, and some folks prefer dipped coins. I do not believe that PCGS or CAC approval has had any impact. >>
I agree. And I can't see any reason for rejecting a coin out of hand because it's been dipped.
Yes, I profer pieces that look original, but I've got a few dipped pieces in my collection to don't bother me at all. I paid a price X that was a bit less than I would have paid for the "perfect" original piece, and in the context of what I'm doing that's okay. Not all type coins are equal in my mind, and there are some I simply don't want own at an "all outdoors" price.
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<< <i>I see The Big One™ as having a bigger impact on dipping and general "loss of originality" going forward than CAC. >>
Has it been determined that the sniffer will detect acetone and render a coin ungradeable? I've yet to hear a definitive answer.
<< <i>
<< <i>I see The Big One™ as having a bigger impact on dipping and general "loss of originality" going forward than CAC. >>
Has it been determined that the sniffer will detect acetone and render a coin ungradeable? I've yet to hear a definitive answer. >>
What's wrong with acetone? Collectors have been using it for years to remove grime, which is very different from cleaning. It's also be used to detect glued on mint marks. What's worse? A little acetone or buying a coin as genuine with a glued on mint mark?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I see The Big One™ as having a bigger impact on dipping and general "loss of originality" going forward than CAC. >>
Has it been determined that the sniffer will detect acetone and render a coin ungradeable? I've yet to hear a definitive answer. >>
What's wrong with acetone? Collectors have been using it for years to remove grime, which is very different from cleaning. It's also be used to detect glued on mint marks. What's worse? A little acetone or buying a coin as genuine with a glued on mint mark? >>
I agree. Acetone is fine. Just wondering how the 'sniffer' is going to treat it.
Remember that a layer gets stripped away with each dip. Eventually if a coin has been dipped several times or is in the dip to long, the coin loses all luster/reflectivity and no longer would qualify for a cac sticker.
<< <i>Dipping is acceptable to all except 'purists', who, like any fundamentalist in any sector of human activity, accept only one, rigid, unviolable set of criteria. They are the extreme minority, and deserve to be so. The market opinion is not changing, it has been a constant, in spite of the screeching, harping, nattering of a few individuals. Cheers, RickO >>
"Nattering nabobs?" LoL!!
Remember that phrase?
<< <i>Dipping is acceptable to all except 'purists', who, like any fundamentalist in any sector of human activity, accept only one, rigid, unviolable set of criteria. They are the extreme minority, and deserve to be so. The market opinion is not changing, it has been a constant, in spite of the screeching, harping, nattering of a few individuals. Cheers, RickO >>
I am disappointed in you, RickO, and had hoped to read better.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I just get frustrated with the constant commentary that produces nothing new. True, there are collectors who do not just follow 'the pack' like a bunch of lemmings, but today, the lemmings rule. Dipping, in solutions that remove grime, gunk, grease, is not affecting the metals surface. If anything more aggressive is applied - such as solutions that remove tarnish, then certainly some silver will be removed as well. Aggressive dipping should not be done on coins. My frustration comes with the uninformed and lazy group - too lazy to learn about metals, chemicals etc that affect the hobby they choose and simply follow the gibberish posted by other uninformed but vociferous individuals. No one, it seems, bothers to read your excellent posting of years ago on tarnish, the process, the progression and results of this chemical phenomena. That posting is what prompted me to learn all I could about tarnish, dipping etc. Most here are like the blind men and the elephant, groping around something they cannot understand and merely try to sound intelligent and informed by repeating messages they read. People are entitled to collect whatever interests them, but tarnish interests many because it is 'in' and can be flipped profitably.
Enough.
Cheers, RickO
<< <i>
<< <i>I see The Big One™ as having a bigger impact on dipping and general "loss of originality" going forward than CAC. >>
Has it been determined that the sniffer will detect acetone and render a coin ungradeable? I've yet to hear a definitive answer. >>
Well, PURE Acetone will not leave a residue, not sure about the cheap stuff from Home Depot (That I use...)
Regardless, using acetone is not doctoring, acetone will not alter surfaces of a non-copper/bronze coin.
Has it been determined that the sniffer will detect acetone and render a coin ungradeable? I've yet to hear a definitive answer.
Canadanz, to answer your question here which has been touched upon before, acetone does not remove silver atoms from the surface and is considered an acceptable method of coin conservation. As long as hairlines are not applied in the process of using acetone, there should be no issue with the Secure + or standard grading with our host. I think I have summarized posts about this from Don as well as information elsewhere on the PCGS site.
And for the record I am opposed to using any sort of substance that removes metal atoms from the surface of a coin. Thus I am also not a fan of dipping.
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Thus the premiums offered for each in its own time frame will oscillate. We be fickle
folks indeed.
Camelot
<< <i>
<< <i>Dipping is acceptable to all except 'purists', who, like any fundamentalist in any sector of human activity, accept only one, rigid, unviolable set of criteria. They are the extreme minority, and deserve to be so. The market opinion is not changing, it has been a constant, in spite of the screeching, harping, nattering of a few individuals. Cheers, RickO >>
"Nattering nabobs?" LoL!!
Remember that phrase?
Old timey conservatives...
Wow Rick, they maybe us minorities deserve a break too, why don't you suggest to Heritage they give us a 20% discount because the coins are damaged by corrosion?
But I'm with RYK, no diff with the CAC.
Good point jhdfla.... just like art from entry level artists sells for cheap prices compared to work of established artists... or wine that has not aged that is so much cheaper.... (do not point out that new cars sell for more than used cars).
Cheers, RickO
Coins that have been dipped decades ago will retone naturally just due to atmospheric conditions if they are not 'slabbed'.
Slabbing preserves the coins in whatever condition our forefathers left them in.
...all that said I feel that dirty undipped GOLD should command a market premium, but only in circulated grades.
<< <i>...all that said I feel that dirty undipped GOLD should command a market premium, but only in circulated grades. >>
ambro, why shouldn't undipped uncirculated gold coins command a market premium as well?
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>'market opinion' on dipping has always been in a state of change. 100-150 years ago the great collectors of the day done this as a routine measure to keep their coins clean. Sanford Saltus probably wished it was not so acceptable.....
Coins that have been dipped decades ago will retone naturally just due to atmospheric conditions if they are not 'slabbed'.
Slabbing preserves the coins in whatever condition our forefathers left them in.
...all that said I feel that dirty undipped GOLD should command a market premium, but only in circulated grades. >>
Due to their increased reactivity, dipped coins often/usually (re)tone differently than undipped ones tone. And the fact that coins are slabbed doesn't even begin to guarantee that undipped ones wont tone or that dipped ones wont re-tone. Lastly, why should undipped circulated gold command a premium, but not undipped uncirculated gold?
Far too many U.S coins have been destructivly cleaned over the past 200 years , dipping is just another form of cleaning
<< <i>"Nattering nabobs?" LoL!!
Remember that phrase?
Nix on Agnew
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!