So someone pays you and you decide that they must be a scammer? You then only refund them 2 of their payments with the 3rd in limbo and then demand that they pay you directly via Paypal rather than through the eBay system for all 3 items. They again attempt to pay you via eBay and you reject their payments but because you don't have any funds in your paypal account they now have 2 refunds pending from you.
Honestly how does the eBay buyer know the refunds will actually be processed? They should trust you? Especially after all the trust you showed them? With two pending refunds you then demand payment for all three items via a direct Paypal invoice rather than through eBay so that the items will be delivered by Christmas.
Pretty amazing to paint the buyer as the potential scammer in this scenario.
For all the trouble you caused the buyer I would expect the items to be shipped priority mail on Monday morning so they are guaranteed to get them before Christmas. They apparently just wanted to pay quickly so you would ship quickly to get the items in time for Christmas. Instead you created an enormous headache for the buyer when you didn't have the funds in your account (I guess because you don't trust Paypal even though you allow them direct access to your bank account) by trying to go "off eBay" with direct Paypal invoices. The reality is that not many people understand that eBay and Paypal are owned by the same company. Perhaps the buyer has heard enough horror stories about all the scam artist sellers that they only do the eBay payment via Paypal so they are sure to get buyer protection?
Now if you had been able to have all the refunds processed at the same time it is a different story. Instead you have now created one of those convoluted mazes that typically ends up in the buyer getting screwed.
The title Much Ado about Nothing comes to mind...unless we are talking big ticket items here, or the buyer has low or less than desirable feedback, I don't see why the need for all this drama. Geez, if the buyer really wants to scam you, all they need to do is open a SNAD claim and send back to you a box of nothing to get their money back. All you're doing here by refunding all these payments and sending e-mail reprimands is opening yourself up to three neuts or negs, IMO..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Instead you created an enormous headache for the buyer when you didn't have the funds in your account (I guess because you don't trust Paypal even though you allow them direct access to your bank account) by trying to go "off eBay" with direct Paypal invoices. The reality is that not many people understand that eBay and Paypal are owned by the same company. Perhaps the buyer has heard enough horror stories about all the scam artist sellers that they only do the eBay payment via Paypal so they are sure to get buyer protection?
Now if you had been able to have all the refunds processed at the same time it is a different story. Instead you have now created one of those convoluted mazes that typically ends up in the buyer getting screwed.
Robb >>
Yeah, I created an enormous headache for the buyer. I guess the buyer should get a free pass for the enormous headache she created for me by not waiting for a combined invoice.
My whole point here is that PAYPAL is the reason the funds were not in the account, because PayPal STOLE part of the money, which was not my fault. They do not have access to my main bank account. This is a secondary account that I use only for PayPal, precisely because I don't trust them.
Sending a direct PayPal invoice is how it was done before ebay bought PayPal and for several years afterwards. This new merged system has only been in place for a couple years, and it still has many problems. There's no protection provided by ebay that buyers don't already get from PayPal and their credit card chargeback protection.
I did not create a convoluted maze, PayPal did by not allowing sellers to accept multiple payments for a single shipment.
No, I do not trust the buyer, and there's no indication she insisted on sending the 4th and 5th payments because she doesn't trust me. She only said she was "confused" after the first round of refunds, and instead of asking a question and patiently waiting 15-20 minutes for clarification, she just did exactly what I told her not to do.
<< <i>The title Much Ado about Nothing comes to mind...unless we are talking big ticket items here, or the buyer has low or less than desirable feedback, I don't see why the need for all this drama. Geez, if the buyer really wants to scam you, all they need to do is open a SNAD claim and send back to you a box of nothing to get their money back. All you're doing here by refunding all these payments and sending e-mail reprimands is opening yourself up to three neuts or negs, IMO.. >>
You're 100% correct, which is why I've informed the buyer that her money is no good to me, and I'm not going to do business with her.
You created the headache and yet you decide to blame Paypal. You rejected the payments and you failed to have enough money in your account to cover the refunds that you initiated. Of course none of it is actually your fault.
All you had to do was simply ASK your buyer if they would like a combine invoice in order to save money on shipping. Instead you jumped the gun and tried to issue refunds that you couldn't in the end afford. In the future perhaps you should keep a few dollars in your Paypal account so you don't inconvenience your buyers.
You seem to be incapable of seeing this from the buyer's perspective. Given the enormous amount of trust you have shown your buyer I imagine if you paid for 3 items and received a refund for 2, a pending refund for the last along with a note indicating that "I assure you this will clear and you will get a full refund of the third payment by Wednesday" then you would absolutely jump at the chance to pay for all three items again directly via Paypal.
< The title Much Ado about Nothing comes to mind...unless we are talking big ticket items here, or the buyer has low or less than desirable feedback, I don't see why the need for all this drama. Geez, if the buyer really wants to scam you, all they need to do is open a SNAD claim and send back to you a box of nothing to get their money back. All you're doing here by refunding all these payments and sending e-mail reprimands is opening yourself up to three neuts or negs, IMO.. >>
You're 100% correct, which is why I've informed the buyer that her money is no good to me, and I'm not going to do business with her.
You may very well wind up getting three negs in the end regardless of whether you choose to do business with her or not.
Maybe you should just list one thing at a time to avoid all this stress in the future...that way you won't have to worry about combining invoices.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
You're 100% correct, which is why I've informed the buyer that her money is no good to me, and I'm not going to do business with her.
You act as if this person was intentionally trying to screw you. She clearly isn't a savvy ebayer, but you treated her as if she is a bad person which is a total dick move. I understand you were trying to protect yourself in the case of a paypal claim, but this person clearly didn't get it (and neither did half this board of ebay vets on the first read). Just because you've thought out all the loopholes doesn't mean you should expect that everyone else has. Hell, I have 1900+ 100% feedback and it never occurred to me that paying for multiple items separately could be the setting up of a scam.
You never know who is on the other end of a deal- could be a scammer, or a 90 year old lady buying toys for her grandkids that doesn't fully understand buying online. Telling someone to f-off before finding out is a great way to handle the situation. You should be really proud of yourself.
<< <i>you failed to have enough money in your account to cover the refunds that you initiated >>
NOT TRUE! The way this new policy is set up, anyone who wants to screw with a seller can just send multiple payments to that seller for no reason, planning all along to file an INR claim for each one. Since there are no actual items to send, the buyer is guaranteed to win every dispute. When the refunds gets processed, the seller loses 30 cents on each and every payment. It is no longer possible to simply reverse a payment to create a situation in which it's as if it never happened. PayPal's greed is to blame. Any other opinion is very much toeing the company line.
<< <i>Instead you jumped the gun and tried to issue refunds that you couldn't in the end afford. In the future perhaps you should keep a few dollars in your Paypal account so you don't inconvenience your buyers. >>
They take enough from me. I'm not letting any of my money sit there and leave it at risk just to make it more convenient for them to steal even more of it. I'm not the one who jumped the gun. The buyer is the one who was impatient and couldn't wait 20 minutes for a stupid invoice. Instead of leaving money in there, I will use a disclaimer saying that 31 cents of every payment is non-refundable. That way I'm covered in the future, sort of. It would have been nice if I'd known how the system was changed beforehand instead of learning the hard way. After having used PayPal for 9 years, suddenly having the rules changes and all my past experience become irrelevant was like a punch in the face.
<< <i>You seem to be incapable of seeing this from the buyer's perspective. Given the enormous amount of trust you have shown your buyer I imagine if you paid for 3 items and received a refund for 2, a pending refund for the last along with a note indicating that "I assure you this will clear and you will get a full refund of the third payment by Wednesday" then you would absolutely jump at the chance to pay for all three items again directly via Paypal. >>
I see it perfectly from every possible perspective imaginable. Like CDsNuts said, I've thought out all the loopholes and possibilities, and I actually buy more on ebay than I sell. There's a presumption of trust in the seller. That's why it's standard for the buyer to send payment before the seller sends the item. This is the way it was even with cash, checks, and money orders. With substantial feedback as a seller, I expect my buyers to put some trust in me. With no ability for me to retaliate if a buyer scams me, I don't trust my buyers, nor do I expect to be trusted when I am a buyer. THE BUYER HAS ALL THE POWER NOW.
<< <i>You act as if this person was intentionally trying to screw you. She clearly isn't a savvy ebayer, but you treated her as if she is a bad person which is a total dick move. I understand you were trying to protect yourself in the case of a paypal claim, but this person clearly didn't get it (and neither did half this board of ebay vets on the first read). Just because you've thought out all the loopholes doesn't mean you should expect that everyone else has. Hell, I have 1900+ 100% feedback and it never occurred to me that paying for multiple items separately could be the setting up of a scam.
You never know who is on the other end of a deal- could be a scammer, or a 90 year old lady buying toys for her grandkids that doesn't fully understand buying online. Telling someone to f-off before finding out is a great way to handle the situation. You should be really proud of yourself. >>
Maybe it was a dick move, but I don't know who this person is or which scenario is closer to the truth. The biggest reason I decided not to send her any stuff is precisely because I'm afraid she'll file a series of SNAD claims merely in retaliation for this entire fiasco. If she's a scammer, screw her. If she's a non-savvy 90-year old ebayer, she should learn to be more patient and follow simple instructions, rather than acting out of ignorance when she's "confused." Like I said earlier, people like her should get eaten by sharks, and I feel that way regardless of which scenario above is closer to the truth.
I can certainly understand when someone pays the agreed price and shipping charges immediately it would upset any seller. I must admit I have been guilty of this. In the future I will wait a week or two before I pay so as to alleviate any suspicion the seller may have about me.
"I will use a disclaimer saying that 31 cents of every payment is non-refundable."
Which I can only imagine will cost you sales.
But lets be honest, the 30 cents, was for a service that you did use. The fact the payment/s got refunded, does not change the fact you used their service.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>NOT TRUE! The way this new policy is set up, anyone who wants to screw with a seller can just send multiple payments to that seller for no reason, planning all along to file an INR claim for each one. Since there are no actual items to send, the buyer is guaranteed to win every dispute. >>
Yes people just send money for NO reason. And, how can someone file an INR when there are no actual items to send?
Inquiring minds would love to know...................
<< <i>I can certainly understand when someone pays the agreed price and shipping charges immediately it would upset any seller. I must admit I have been guilty of this. In the future I will wait a week or two before I pay so as to alleviate any suspicion the seller may have about me. >>
<< <i>how can someone file an INR when there are no actual items to send?
Inquiring minds would love to know...................
WTF? >>
Because...... it's a SCAM! It's not a scam the scammer will actually benefit from, but it will cause a huge headache for the other person and ultimately cost the other person money.
Let's say you hate me, and you decide to screw with me. You get my registered PayPal e-mail from someone here who doesn't realize you only want it to hurt me. You send me 100 unique credit card funded PayPal payments for $1.50 each and in each one, you list a different common card, with a note saying, "Hi, this is $1.50 for the 1987 Topps Wayne Tolleson card including shipping."
There's no Wayne Tolleson card. Two weeks later you file 100 INR disputes. Since I never sent you anything, I have no tracking numbers to provide PayPal to investigate. You win all the disputes, and I'm out $0.30 x 100 = $30.00. If for some reason the PayPal investigator finds two brain cells to rub together and realizes what happened, you'll still be protected by doing 100 chargebacks. Such activity on your credit card will look highly suspicious, and when you claim unauthorized fraud/multiple charges in error, your credit card issuer will have no problem refunding the total $150.00, which is chump change to them.
<< <i>Yeah, I created an enormous headache for the buyer. I guess the buyer should get a free pass for the enormous headache she created for me by not waiting for a combined invoice.
My whole point here is that PAYPAL is the reason the funds were not in the account, because PayPal STOLE part of the money, which was not my fault. They do not have access to my main bank account. This is a secondary account that I use only for PayPal, precisely because I don't trust them.
Sending a direct PayPal invoice is how it was done before ebay bought PayPal and for several years afterwards. This new merged system has only been in place for a couple years, and it still has many problems. There's no protection provided by ebay that buyers don't already get from PayPal and their credit card chargeback protection.
I did not create a convoluted maze, PayPal did by not allowing sellers to accept multiple payments for a single shipment.
No, I do not trust the buyer, and there's no indication she insisted on sending the 4th and 5th payments because she doesn't trust me. She only said she was "confused" after the first round of refunds, and instead of asking a question and patiently waiting 15-20 minutes for clarification, she just did exactly what I told her not to do.
Nice job trying to toe the company line though. >>
Why did you package up the items together in the same box, before sending a combined invoice?
<< <i>how can someone file an INR when there are no actual items to send?
Inquiring minds would love to know...................
WTF? >>
Because...... it's a SCAM! It's not a scam the scammer will actually benefit from, but it will cause a huge headache for the other person and ultimately cost the other person money.
Let's say you hate me, and you decide to screw with me. You get my registered PayPal e-mail from someone here who doesn't realize you only want it to hurt me. You send me 100 unique credit card funded PayPal payments for $1.50 each and in each one, you list a different common card, with a note saying, "Hi, this is $1.50 for the 1987 Topps Wayne Tolleson card including shipping."
There's no Wayne Tolleson card. Two weeks later you file 100 INR disputes. Since I never sent you anything, I have no tracking numbers to provide PayPal to investigate. You win all the disputes, and I'm out $0.30 x 100 = $30.00. If for some reason the PayPal investigator finds two brain cells to rub together and realizes what happened, you'll still be protected by doing 100 chargebacks. Such activity on your credit card will look highly suspicious, and when you claim unauthorized fraud/multiple charges in error, your credit card issuer will have no problem refunding the total $150.00, which is chump change to them. >>
You have to change your pay pal settings to an accept all option to have this happen. Meaning, if this completely made of case is of concern to you, just change your settings.
There are a lot of scams out there to protect yourself from. No need to make up one.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
This thread remind me of that Seinfeld episode "Bizarro World."
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I'm not in my own world because I refuse to accept PayPal's unfair consumer practices just because "that's the way it is." I looked up the history of user agreement changes, and this policy was just changed effective August 10 of this year. You might not share my outrage and bitterness, but that doesn't mean I'm stupid.
Such characterizations are the precise reason why corrupt corporations like PayPal can get away with this crap. Remember the golden rule: He who has the gold, rules. That doesn't make it right, and maybe you're willing to accept it, but I'm not.
You think a guy this paranoid would share the link to any of his auctions, thereby exposing his ebay identity to us potential scammers? Not a chance. He's too busy stocking his bomb shelter with bottled water and spam, and making tinfoil helmets so the government can't read his mind.
<< <i>you failed to have enough money in your account to cover the refunds that you initiated >>
NOT TRUE! The way this new policy is set up, anyone who wants to screw with a seller can just send multiple payments to that seller for no reason, planning all along to file an INR claim for each one. Since there are no actual items to send, the buyer is guaranteed to win every dispute. When the refunds gets processed, the seller loses 30 cents on each and every payment. It is no longer possible to simply reverse a payment to create a situation in which it's as if it never happened. PayPal's greed is to blame. Any other opinion is very much toeing the company line.
<< <i>Instead you jumped the gun and tried to issue refunds that you couldn't in the end afford. In the future perhaps you should keep a few dollars in your Paypal account so you don't inconvenience your buyers. >>
They take enough from me. I'm not letting any of my money sit there and leave it at risk just to make it more convenient for them to steal even more of it. I'm not the one who jumped the gun. The buyer is the one who was impatient and couldn't wait 20 minutes for a stupid invoice. Instead of leaving money in there, I will use a disclaimer saying that 31 cents of every payment is non-refundable. That way I'm covered in the future, sort of. It would have been nice if I'd known how the system was changed beforehand instead of learning the hard way. After having used PayPal for 9 years, suddenly having the rules changes and all my past experience become irrelevant was like a punch in the face.
<< <i>You seem to be incapable of seeing this from the buyer's perspective. Given the enormous amount of trust you have shown your buyer I imagine if you paid for 3 items and received a refund for 2, a pending refund for the last along with a note indicating that "I assure you this will clear and you will get a full refund of the third payment by Wednesday" then you would absolutely jump at the chance to pay for all three items again directly via Paypal. >>
I see it perfectly from every possible perspective imaginable. Like CDsNuts said, I've thought out all the loopholes and possibilities, and I actually buy more on ebay than I sell. There's a presumption of trust in the seller. That's why it's standard for the buyer to send payment before the seller sends the item. This is the way it was even with cash, checks, and money orders. With substantial feedback as a seller, I expect my buyers to put some trust in me. With no ability for me to retaliate if a buyer scams me, I don't trust my buyers, nor do I expect to be trusted when I am a buyer. THE BUYER HAS ALL THE POWER NOW.
<< <i>You act as if this person was intentionally trying to screw you. She clearly isn't a savvy ebayer, but you treated her as if she is a bad person which is a total dick move. I understand you were trying to protect yourself in the case of a paypal claim, but this person clearly didn't get it (and neither did half this board of ebay vets on the first read). Just because you've thought out all the loopholes doesn't mean you should expect that everyone else has. Hell, I have 1900+ 100% feedback and it never occurred to me that paying for multiple items separately could be the setting up of a scam.
You never know who is on the other end of a deal- could be a scammer, or a 90 year old lady buying toys for her grandkids that doesn't fully understand buying online. Telling someone to f-off before finding out is a great way to handle the situation. You should be really proud of yourself. >>
Maybe it was a dick move, but I don't know who this person is or which scenario is closer to the truth. The biggest reason I decided not to send her any stuff is precisely because I'm afraid she'll file a series of SNAD claims merely in retaliation for this entire fiasco. If she's a scammer, screw her. If she's a non-savvy 90-year old ebayer, she should learn to be more patient and follow simple instructions, rather than acting out of ignorance when she's "confused." Like I said earlier, people like her should get eaten by sharks, and I feel that way regardless of which scenario above is closer to the truth. >>
It took a long time to write this up and I didn't read it.
OK, so never send items together if they were paid for separately......I never would have known that if I had not read this thread. The stuff I got to watch out for. It is harder to be a seller now than a few years back. But back then, those retaliatory negs from sellers were so unfair.
CrazyMind,
Corporations act in their self interest and I understand what you mean about their scheming ways they utilize to separate you from your money using the law and a pen. I am not disputing that. However, keep in mind that it was not obvious your customer was a scam artist. It could have been someone not ebay savy who needed their items before Christmas. The opinion of most here is that more tact was needed when dealing with that customer. Also, you are being put on defense on too many of these posts, so its a clear indication that something is not right--overdoing it on damage control is counterproductive. Anyway, you did alert all of us on scenarios we have never even thought of to protect ourselves.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
DeutscherGeist, I fully understand and for the most part, agree, with everything you've said, and I thank you for bringing some calm back into the discussion.
However, based on the circumstances, I don't think that my initial reaction (sending back the first 3 payments and then assuring the buyer using only my word that the third refund would be processed by Wednesday) was out of line. As I've already stated, I didn't realize the third refund would not be instant, and once I fully understood the situation, it was too late and I was stuck. Everything spiraled out of control after that point.
About all I could have done better, and again, hindsight is 20/20, is that I should have explained (in that first message specifically) the situation to the buyer in more detail and written more explicit instructions to not send any additional individual payments.
I suppose it just made too much sense to ME that anyone else would react by thinking, "hey, the seller just sent back all my individual payments, and I might not be sure why he did that, but it probably wouldn't be a good idea for me to redo the exact thing that he just undid." It doesn't really take ebay savvy to think in those terms, so I never stopped to contemplate the possibility (rare for me) that another person might not think that way at all.
As I commented in the third post on page 2 of this thread, "I would never scam another person, but I find that more and more of the time I spend on the ebay website is devoted to finding ways that I can circumvent some fee or regulation like a common criminal. It's such a shame that it has become such a big business that forgot its roots long ago." Most of the time, I try to see all the angles, all the different possibilities, and adjust my reaction accordingly to stay one step ahead of both the system and incompetent/ignorant individuals who don't understand the system as well as I do and get caught in the wheels of the machine because of it.
I suppose I failed to see all the possibilities in this case, and I suppose the reason for that is I went ballistic when I got blindsided by the non-instant refund that I didn't anticipate. Again, having 9 years of experience using PayPal suddenly become irrelevant was like taking a punch to the face. Based on what I've learned from this, I already have a plan to get money out of my checking account instantly, should that be necessary, the next time something like this happens, and that's what's important and shouldn't get lost in all this. I hope I haven't come across as too defensive in this post. My earlier defensiveness can be attributed to what I perceived to be people here criticizing just for the sake of criticizing, and in my humble opinion, they're as guilty of being tactless with me as I was with my buyer. So I thank you again for injecting some calm into this thread.
You think a guy this paranoid would share the link to any of his auctions, thereby exposing his ebay identity to us potential scammers? Not a chance. He's too busy stocking his bomb shelter with bottled water and spam, and making tinfoil helmets so the government can't read his mind. >>
If you're really determined, I've left enough of a trail for you to find my ebay ID rather easily. Seems to me that Steve is not only nosy, but also a bit lazy as well! If you search the B/S/T board over the past week or two, you'll find exactly what you're looking for, and then by deduction, you'll be able to figure out exactly which three items are the ebay listings involved here. Think of it as a scavenger hunt! Then you can come back here and report!
I think you need to relook at the sitatition if what you learned was how to pull money out of pay pal to avoid $0.30 charges.
Pay Pal/ebay gets about $700-900 a month from me, and maybe $2-3 a year more with this (no-so) new policity. Of all the many problems I have with them and the system, $0.30 for a service they did provide is not an issue.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
I think you need to relook at the situation if you really still think this is about 30 cents.
It's about being able to issue a refund instantly even when I have no other funds in my PayPal balance instead of waiting 5 freakin' days for a stupid e-check to clear from my own bank account.
I might be the most stubborn person on the face of the earth, but I'm not dense. I'm very perceptive and I know what's going on. Sometimes I just don't care!
Read your bold statement and your last reply....it is about the $0.30, which again, was for a service you used. Maybe to you it is the principle of the $0.30, which means you are completely wrong. There are no free rides in life, you used their service, they changed a fair $0.30 plus a percent. Yes, you did not understand they would hold that last refund, we understand that. But that is where the problem happened....YOU did not understand. Not that you did not use their service, or that they did not provide the service.
And yet, you continue to blame, ebay, pay pal and the customer, and still, the strangest thing I have ever heard from a seller, demand a second payment because you didn't have $1.00 in your account. You know, maybe the postman and your internet provider is also to blaime.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Whoever mentioned about the Fees with Paypal was right!! The Frickin Crooks refunded the Fees for the first 10-12 transactions and then no Fee refunds after that.......................F$Ckin' Mafia!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
It's nonsense like this that makes me find it morally excusable or even justifiable to circumvent ebay/paypal fees, or to just stiff them altogether. Now they stifle communication and make it nearly impossible to even get someone's real e-mail address, and bottom feeders want everything for free, then complain (by using the pointless new 5-star system) about lack of communication just because I didn't compose a personalized message with their tracking number after they paid and I shipped. I would never scam another person, but I find that more and more of the time I spend on the ebay website is devoted to finding ways that I can circumvent some fee or regulation like a common criminal. It's such a shame that it has become such a big business that forgot its roots long ago.
>>
Wow, very well said, I, like you, am basically an honest person, but my Sordid dealings with E-Bay and Paypal have led me down the path to Perdition!!!
I try and do as much of my dealings outside of E-Bay as possible, for all the reasons above, and the 12%-20% of every sale they expect is userous and tandamount to a Monopoly. If somebody contacts me and offers me anything reasonable...My answer is He!! Yes!! E-Pig and PigPal!! can KMA!!
YeeHah
Neil
>>
If ebay is so terrible, then why not find another avenue to sell? It is completely wrong to place an item on ebay, then sell it off of ebay to someone that initially found it on ebay. You are using the service for free that most people pay for. Why not sell it on craigslist? They have free listings. The reason you don't sell it on craigslist is because you won't get the same results as on ebay. Therefore, ebay charges more than craigslist, yet more people sell through ebay than craigslist because they get better results.
<< <i>Read your bold statement and your last reply....it is about the $0.30, which again, was for a service you used. Maybe to you it is the principle of the $0.30, which means you are completely wrong. There are no free rides in life, you used their service, they changed a fair $0.30 plus a percent. Yes, you did not understand they would hold that last refund, we understand that. But that is where the problem happened....YOU did not understand. Not that you did not use their service, or that they did not provide the service.
And yet, you continue to blame, ebay, pay pal and the customer, and still, the strangest thing I have ever heard from a seller, demand a second payment because you didn't have $1.00 in your account. You know, maybe the postman and your internet provider is also to blaime. >>
You are making this a black and white issue, which it most certainly is not. It is a multi-layered problem, and when analyzed from a consequentialist perspective, is apparently too complex for you to conceptualize. Yes I have a problem with the change in policy, not only because it is greedy, but because the precedent had been set over the past 10 years that payments were 100% reversible. No longer is this the case. I understand it's a free market and I don't have to use their service, and what they're doing is probably legal. That doesn't make it fair, just, or right. My favorite line from the movie 8MM comes to mind: "He did it because he could."
The first domino that fell was this change in policy, which is similar to the scam in Office Space - taking pennies at a time from those who won't really notice they're gone. PayPal's decision to take 30 cents on each refund is 100% wrong in my opinion, but not really a big deal on its own. The real problem is that it has unintended consequences, so in addition to being exploited for 30 cents (again, not a big deal, but worth noting due to the principle of the matter), the customer is also severely inconvenienced by having to wait for an e-check to clear in order to issue a refund. This is the real problem. How you can fail to see that this is a multi-layered issue is incomprehensible to me.
You blame me for not having $1.00 in my PayPal balance, but what if this had been the first payment I'd received in months? What if these were the only three items I had listed on ebay? I'm not really that active a seller on ebay. You blame me for not having the foresight to be prepared for the situation I found myself in, yet there was no way for me to predict what was going to happen because I was in unchartered waters. The policy change is relatively recent (August of this year), and while I knew the 90 cents I was short on the third refund would come from my bank account, there was no warning message indicating that the transfer/refund would not be instant. Only after I clicked to issue the refund did I see a notification that the funds would not clear until December 22. I then immediately tried to pull back this refund, since is was "pending," and I found no option allowing me to do that.
PayPal is able to send instant payments from bank accounts. I don't see why they can't also send instant refunds from bank accounts. And since they don't, they should at least indicate such on the screen that shows the refund button, so I can choose not to click it if I don't like the terms. They never afforded me that courtesy or opportunity.
It's not really about the 30 cents. It's about the greed that PayPal has for the 30 cents and the domino effect of unintended consequences. They obviously don't care about their own customers, and it's vile.
This forum REALLY needs a 'block poster' option, although the comedic value has been pretty nice.
Let me explain. No, it's too long, let me sum up:
1) Buyers who pay right away are scum and not to be trusted. 2) Buyers must take and pass the advanced EBay buyers test in order to be sure and not make any mistakes. 3) The internet rule that says anyone who complains about the spelling/grammatical skills of another had better double- and triple-check their own posts is proven once again. 4) People who rant about greedy corporations making money for providing services really need to go full-on Luddite and leave the internet.
Did I miss any details?
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>3) The internet rule that says anyone who complains about the spelling/grammatical skills of another had better double- and triple-check their own posts is proven once again. >>
Please elaborate by citing specific examples, thank you.
<< <i>3) The internet rule that says anyone who complains about the spelling/grammatical skills of another had better double- and triple-check their own posts is proven once again. >>
Please elaborate by citing specific examples, thank you. >>
Snipped from your letter to the buyer:
Because the ebay system is complete messed up, it won't allow me to combine all three auctions into a single invoice, because that last refund hasn't yet been finalized.
That's without picking on the "Wizard of Oz"-like usage of "because, ,because" in there.
EDIT: I'm generally not one to start picking on grammar or spelling in an informal message board setting, but I'll darn sure pick on "someone picking on someone's grammar". Hence the reference to the internet rule.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>EDIT: I'm generally not one to start picking on grammar or spelling in an informal message board setting, but I'll darn sure pick on "someone picking on someone's grammar". Hence the reference to the internet rule. >>
Dude what the hell are you talking about? When did I ever complain about anyone else's grammar or spelling?
Comments
Honestly how does the eBay buyer know the refunds will actually be processed? They should trust you? Especially after all the trust you showed them? With two pending refunds you then demand payment for all three items via a direct Paypal invoice rather than through eBay so that the items will be delivered by Christmas.
Pretty amazing to paint the buyer as the potential scammer in this scenario.
For all the trouble you caused the buyer I would expect the items to be shipped priority mail on Monday morning so they are guaranteed to get them before Christmas. They apparently just wanted to pay quickly so you would ship quickly to get the items in time for Christmas. Instead you created an enormous headache for the buyer when you didn't have the funds in your account (I guess because you don't trust Paypal even though you allow them direct access to your bank account) by trying to go "off eBay" with direct Paypal invoices. The reality is that not many people understand that eBay and Paypal are owned by the same company. Perhaps the buyer has heard enough horror stories about all the scam artist sellers that they only do the eBay payment via Paypal so they are sure to get buyer protection?
Now if you had been able to have all the refunds processed at the same time it is a different story. Instead you have now created one of those convoluted mazes that typically ends up in the buyer getting screwed.
Robb
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Instead you created an enormous headache for the buyer when you didn't have the funds in your account (I guess because you don't trust Paypal even though you allow them direct access to your bank account) by trying to go "off eBay" with direct Paypal invoices. The reality is that not many people understand that eBay and Paypal are owned by the same company. Perhaps the buyer has heard enough horror stories about all the scam artist sellers that they only do the eBay payment via Paypal so they are sure to get buyer protection?
Now if you had been able to have all the refunds processed at the same time it is a different story. Instead you have now created one of those convoluted mazes that typically ends up in the buyer getting screwed.
Robb >>
Yeah, I created an enormous headache for the buyer.
My whole point here is that PAYPAL is the reason the funds were not in the account, because PayPal STOLE part of the money, which was not my fault. They do not have access to my main bank account. This is a secondary account that I use only for PayPal, precisely because I don't trust them.
Sending a direct PayPal invoice is how it was done before ebay bought PayPal and for several years afterwards. This new merged system has only been in place for a couple years, and it still has many problems. There's no protection provided by ebay that buyers don't already get from PayPal and their credit card chargeback protection.
I did not create a convoluted maze, PayPal did by not allowing sellers to accept multiple payments for a single shipment.
No, I do not trust the buyer, and there's no indication she insisted on sending the 4th and 5th payments because she doesn't trust me. She only said she was "confused" after the first round of refunds, and instead of asking a question and patiently waiting 15-20 minutes for clarification, she just did exactly what I told her not to do.
Nice job trying to toe the company line though.
<< <i>The title Much Ado about Nothing comes to mind...unless we are talking big ticket items here, or the buyer has low or less than desirable feedback, I don't see why the need for all this drama. Geez, if the buyer really wants to scam you, all they need to do is open a SNAD claim and send back to you a box of nothing to get their money back. All you're doing here by refunding all these payments and sending e-mail reprimands is opening yourself up to three neuts or negs, IMO.. >>
You're 100% correct, which is why I've informed the buyer that her money is no good to me, and I'm not going to do business with her.
You created the headache and yet you decide to blame Paypal. You rejected the payments and you failed to have enough money in your account to cover the refunds that you initiated. Of course none of it is actually your fault.
All you had to do was simply ASK your buyer if they would like a combine invoice in order to save money on shipping. Instead you jumped the gun and tried to issue refunds that you couldn't in the end afford. In the future perhaps you should keep a few dollars in your Paypal account so you don't inconvenience your buyers.
You seem to be incapable of seeing this from the buyer's perspective. Given the enormous amount of trust you have shown your buyer I imagine if you paid for 3 items and received a refund for 2, a pending refund for the last along with a note indicating that "I assure you this will clear and you will get a full refund of the third payment by Wednesday" then you would absolutely jump at the chance to pay for all three items again directly via Paypal.
Anyways best of luck resolving your situation.
Robb
You're 100% correct, which is why I've informed the buyer that her money is no good to me, and I'm not going to do business with her.
You may very well wind up getting three negs in the end regardless of whether you choose to do business with her or not.
Maybe you should just list one thing at a time to avoid all this stress in the future...that way you won't have to worry about combining invoices.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
You act as if this person was intentionally trying to screw you. She clearly isn't a savvy ebayer, but you treated her as if she is a bad person which is a total dick move. I understand you were trying to protect yourself in the case of a paypal claim, but this person clearly didn't get it (and neither did half this board of ebay vets on the first read). Just because you've thought out all the loopholes doesn't mean you should expect that everyone else has. Hell, I have 1900+ 100% feedback and it never occurred to me that paying for multiple items separately could be the setting up of a scam.
You never know who is on the other end of a deal- could be a scammer, or a 90 year old lady buying toys for her grandkids that doesn't fully understand buying online. Telling someone to f-off before finding out is a great way to handle the situation. You should be really proud of yourself.
<< <i>you failed to have enough money in your account to cover the refunds that you initiated >>
NOT TRUE! The way this new policy is set up, anyone who wants to screw with a seller can just send multiple payments to that seller for no reason, planning all along to file an INR claim for each one. Since there are no actual items to send, the buyer is guaranteed to win every dispute. When the refunds gets processed, the seller loses 30 cents on each and every payment. It is no longer possible to simply reverse a payment to create a situation in which it's as if it never happened. PayPal's greed is to blame. Any other opinion is very much toeing the company line.
<< <i>Instead you jumped the gun and tried to issue refunds that you couldn't in the end afford. In the future perhaps you should keep a few dollars in your Paypal account so you don't inconvenience your buyers. >>
They take enough from me. I'm not letting any of my money sit there and leave it at risk just to make it more convenient for them to steal even more of it. I'm not the one who jumped the gun. The buyer is the one who was impatient and couldn't wait 20 minutes for a stupid invoice. Instead of leaving money in there, I will use a disclaimer saying that 31 cents of every payment is non-refundable. That way I'm covered in the future, sort of. It would have been nice if I'd known how the system was changed beforehand instead of learning the hard way. After having used PayPal for 9 years, suddenly having the rules changes and all my past experience become irrelevant was like a punch in the face.
<< <i>You seem to be incapable of seeing this from the buyer's perspective. Given the enormous amount of trust you have shown your buyer I imagine if you paid for 3 items and received a refund for 2, a pending refund for the last along with a note indicating that "I assure you this will clear and you will get a full refund of the third payment by Wednesday" then you would absolutely jump at the chance to pay for all three items again directly via Paypal. >>
I see it perfectly from every possible perspective imaginable. Like CDsNuts said, I've thought out all the loopholes and possibilities, and I actually buy more on ebay than I sell. There's a presumption of trust in the seller. That's why it's standard for the buyer to send payment before the seller sends the item. This is the way it was even with cash, checks, and money orders. With substantial feedback as a seller, I expect my buyers to put some trust in me. With no ability for me to retaliate if a buyer scams me, I don't trust my buyers, nor do I expect to be trusted when I am a buyer. THE BUYER HAS ALL THE POWER NOW.
<< <i>You act as if this person was intentionally trying to screw you. She clearly isn't a savvy ebayer, but you treated her as if she is a bad person which is a total dick move. I understand you were trying to protect yourself in the case of a paypal claim, but this person clearly didn't get it (and neither did half this board of ebay vets on the first read). Just because you've thought out all the loopholes doesn't mean you should expect that everyone else has. Hell, I have 1900+ 100% feedback and it never occurred to me that paying for multiple items separately could be the setting up of a scam.
You never know who is on the other end of a deal- could be a scammer, or a 90 year old lady buying toys for her grandkids that doesn't fully understand buying online. Telling someone to f-off before finding out is a great way to handle the situation. You should be really proud of yourself. >>
Maybe it was a dick move, but I don't know who this person is or which scenario is closer to the truth. The biggest reason I decided not to send her any stuff is precisely because I'm afraid she'll file a series of SNAD claims merely in retaliation for this entire fiasco. If she's a scammer, screw her. If she's a non-savvy 90-year old ebayer, she should learn to be more patient and follow simple instructions, rather than acting out of ignorance when she's "confused." Like I said earlier, people like her should get eaten by sharks, and I feel that way regardless of which scenario above is closer to the truth.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
Which I can only imagine will cost you sales.
But lets be honest, the 30 cents, was for a service that you did use. The fact the payment/s got refunded, does not change the fact you used their service.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>NOT TRUE! The way this new policy is set up, anyone who wants to screw with a seller can just send multiple payments to that seller for no reason, planning all along to file an INR claim for each one. Since there are no actual items to send, the buyer is guaranteed to win every dispute. >>
Yes people just send money for NO reason. And, how can someone file an INR when there are no actual items to send?
Inquiring minds would love to know...................
WTF?
<< <i>I can certainly understand when someone pays the agreed price and shipping charges immediately it would upset any seller. I must admit I have been guilty of this. In the future I will wait a week or two before I pay so as to alleviate any suspicion the seller may have about me. >>
<< <i>Anyone else see the irony here? >>
kinda.
but, i definitely get the meaning behind the name.
<< <i>how can someone file an INR when there are no actual items to send?
Inquiring minds would love to know...................
WTF? >>
Because...... it's a SCAM! It's not a scam the scammer will actually benefit from, but it will cause a huge headache for the other person and ultimately cost the other person money.
Let's say you hate me, and you decide to screw with me. You get my registered PayPal e-mail from someone here who doesn't realize you only want it to hurt me. You send me 100 unique credit card funded PayPal payments for $1.50 each and in each one, you list a different common card, with a note saying, "Hi, this is $1.50 for the 1987 Topps Wayne Tolleson card including shipping."
There's no Wayne Tolleson card. Two weeks later you file 100 INR disputes. Since I never sent you anything, I have no tracking numbers to provide PayPal to investigate. You win all the disputes, and I'm out $0.30 x 100 = $30.00. If for some reason the PayPal investigator finds two brain cells to rub together and realizes what happened, you'll still be protected by doing 100 chargebacks. Such activity on your credit card will look highly suspicious, and when you claim unauthorized fraud/multiple charges in error, your credit card issuer will have no problem refunding the total $150.00, which is chump change to them.
<< <i>Yeah, I created an enormous headache for the buyer.
My whole point here is that PAYPAL is the reason the funds were not in the account, because PayPal STOLE part of the money, which was not my fault. They do not have access to my main bank account. This is a secondary account that I use only for PayPal, precisely because I don't trust them.
Sending a direct PayPal invoice is how it was done before ebay bought PayPal and for several years afterwards. This new merged system has only been in place for a couple years, and it still has many problems. There's no protection provided by ebay that buyers don't already get from PayPal and their credit card chargeback protection.
I did not create a convoluted maze, PayPal did by not allowing sellers to accept multiple payments for a single shipment.
No, I do not trust the buyer, and there's no indication she insisted on sending the 4th and 5th payments because she doesn't trust me. She only said she was "confused" after the first round of refunds, and instead of asking a question and patiently waiting 15-20 minutes for clarification, she just did exactly what I told her not to do.
Nice job trying to toe the company line though. >>
Why did you package up the items together in the same box, before sending a combined invoice?
PS You picked the perfect user name
<< <i>Why did you package up the items together in the same box, before sending a combined invoice?
PS You picked the perfect user name >>
So I could get an exact shipping weight and look up the exact shipping cost to buyer's zip code.
<< <i>Because...... it's a SCAM! It's not a scam the scammer will actually benefit from >>
If the 'scammer' gets 150.00 from PP or CC did he/she not benefit?
<< <i>If the 'scammer' gets 150.00 from PP or CC did he/she not benefit? >>
The net is zero. It's not really a "scam" as much as it's like shoving a lit smoke bomb up someone's rear end.
<< <i>
<< <i>how can someone file an INR when there are no actual items to send?
Inquiring minds would love to know...................
WTF? >>
Because...... it's a SCAM! It's not a scam the scammer will actually benefit from, but it will cause a huge headache for the other person and ultimately cost the other person money.
Let's say you hate me, and you decide to screw with me. You get my registered PayPal e-mail from someone here who doesn't realize you only want it to hurt me. You send me 100 unique credit card funded PayPal payments for $1.50 each and in each one, you list a different common card, with a note saying, "Hi, this is $1.50 for the 1987 Topps Wayne Tolleson card including shipping."
There's no Wayne Tolleson card. Two weeks later you file 100 INR disputes. Since I never sent you anything, I have no tracking numbers to provide PayPal to investigate. You win all the disputes, and I'm out $0.30 x 100 = $30.00. If for some reason the PayPal investigator finds two brain cells to rub together and realizes what happened, you'll still be protected by doing 100 chargebacks. Such activity on your credit card will look highly suspicious, and when you claim unauthorized fraud/multiple charges in error, your credit card issuer will have no problem refunding the total $150.00, which is chump change to them. >>
You have to change your pay pal settings to an accept all option to have this happen. Meaning, if this completely made of case is of concern to you, just change your settings.
There are a lot of scams out there to protect yourself from. No need to make up one.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
You said you put all three items in a box so you could weigh them?
Did you have to tape the box shut to accomplish that?
Lastly, do you have a link to these auctions?
Why do you want links?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Such characterizations are the precise reason why corrupt corporations like PayPal can get away with this crap. Remember the golden rule: He who has the gold, rules. That doesn't make it right, and maybe you're willing to accept it, but I'm not.
You think a guy this paranoid would share the link to any of his auctions, thereby exposing his ebay identity to us potential scammers? Not a chance. He's too busy stocking his bomb shelter with bottled water and spam, and making tinfoil helmets so the government can't read his mind.
<< <i>
<< <i>you failed to have enough money in your account to cover the refunds that you initiated >>
NOT TRUE! The way this new policy is set up, anyone who wants to screw with a seller can just send multiple payments to that seller for no reason, planning all along to file an INR claim for each one. Since there are no actual items to send, the buyer is guaranteed to win every dispute. When the refunds gets processed, the seller loses 30 cents on each and every payment. It is no longer possible to simply reverse a payment to create a situation in which it's as if it never happened. PayPal's greed is to blame. Any other opinion is very much toeing the company line.
<< <i>Instead you jumped the gun and tried to issue refunds that you couldn't in the end afford. In the future perhaps you should keep a few dollars in your Paypal account so you don't inconvenience your buyers. >>
They take enough from me. I'm not letting any of my money sit there and leave it at risk just to make it more convenient for them to steal even more of it. I'm not the one who jumped the gun. The buyer is the one who was impatient and couldn't wait 20 minutes for a stupid invoice. Instead of leaving money in there, I will use a disclaimer saying that 31 cents of every payment is non-refundable. That way I'm covered in the future, sort of. It would have been nice if I'd known how the system was changed beforehand instead of learning the hard way. After having used PayPal for 9 years, suddenly having the rules changes and all my past experience become irrelevant was like a punch in the face.
<< <i>You seem to be incapable of seeing this from the buyer's perspective. Given the enormous amount of trust you have shown your buyer I imagine if you paid for 3 items and received a refund for 2, a pending refund for the last along with a note indicating that "I assure you this will clear and you will get a full refund of the third payment by Wednesday" then you would absolutely jump at the chance to pay for all three items again directly via Paypal. >>
I see it perfectly from every possible perspective imaginable. Like CDsNuts said, I've thought out all the loopholes and possibilities, and I actually buy more on ebay than I sell. There's a presumption of trust in the seller. That's why it's standard for the buyer to send payment before the seller sends the item. This is the way it was even with cash, checks, and money orders. With substantial feedback as a seller, I expect my buyers to put some trust in me. With no ability for me to retaliate if a buyer scams me, I don't trust my buyers, nor do I expect to be trusted when I am a buyer. THE BUYER HAS ALL THE POWER NOW.
<< <i>You act as if this person was intentionally trying to screw you. She clearly isn't a savvy ebayer, but you treated her as if she is a bad person which is a total dick move. I understand you were trying to protect yourself in the case of a paypal claim, but this person clearly didn't get it (and neither did half this board of ebay vets on the first read). Just because you've thought out all the loopholes doesn't mean you should expect that everyone else has. Hell, I have 1900+ 100% feedback and it never occurred to me that paying for multiple items separately could be the setting up of a scam.
You never know who is on the other end of a deal- could be a scammer, or a 90 year old lady buying toys for her grandkids that doesn't fully understand buying online. Telling someone to f-off before finding out is a great way to handle the situation. You should be really proud of yourself. >>
Maybe it was a dick move, but I don't know who this person is or which scenario is closer to the truth. The biggest reason I decided not to send her any stuff is precisely because I'm afraid she'll file a series of SNAD claims merely in retaliation for this entire fiasco. If she's a scammer, screw her. If she's a non-savvy 90-year old ebayer, she should learn to be more patient and follow simple instructions, rather than acting out of ignorance when she's "confused." Like I said earlier, people like her should get eaten by sharks, and I feel that way regardless of which scenario above is closer to the truth. >>
It took a long time to write this up and I didn't read it.
CrazyMind,
Corporations act in their self interest and I understand what you mean about their scheming ways they utilize to separate you from your money using the law and a pen. I am not disputing that. However, keep in mind that it was not obvious your customer was a scam artist. It could have been someone not ebay savy who needed their items before Christmas. The opinion of most here is that more tact was needed when dealing with that customer. Also, you are being put on defense on too many of these posts, so its a clear indication that something is not right--overdoing it on damage control is counterproductive.
Anyway, you did alert all of us on scenarios we have never even thought of to protect ourselves.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
However, based on the circumstances, I don't think that my initial reaction (sending back the first 3 payments and then assuring the buyer using only my word that the third refund would be processed by Wednesday) was out of line. As I've already stated, I didn't realize the third refund would not be instant, and once I fully understood the situation, it was too late and I was stuck. Everything spiraled out of control after that point.
About all I could have done better, and again, hindsight is 20/20, is that I should have explained (in that first message specifically) the situation to the buyer in more detail and written more explicit instructions to not send any additional individual payments.
I suppose it just made too much sense to ME that anyone else would react by thinking, "hey, the seller just sent back all my individual payments, and I might not be sure why he did that, but it probably wouldn't be a good idea for me to redo the exact thing that he just undid." It doesn't really take ebay savvy to think in those terms, so I never stopped to contemplate the possibility (rare for me) that another person might not think that way at all.
As I commented in the third post on page 2 of this thread, "I would never scam another person, but I find that more and more of the time I spend on the ebay website is devoted to finding ways that I can circumvent some fee or regulation like a common criminal. It's such a shame that it has become such a big business that forgot its roots long ago." Most of the time, I try to see all the angles, all the different possibilities, and adjust my reaction accordingly to stay one step ahead of both the system and incompetent/ignorant individuals who don't understand the system as well as I do and get caught in the wheels of the machine because of it.
I suppose I failed to see all the possibilities in this case, and I suppose the reason for that is I went ballistic when I got blindsided by the non-instant refund that I didn't anticipate. Again, having 9 years of experience using PayPal suddenly become irrelevant was like taking a punch to the face. Based on what I've learned from this, I already have a plan to get money out of my checking account instantly, should that be necessary, the next time something like this happens, and that's what's important and shouldn't get lost in all this. I hope I haven't come across as too defensive in this post. My earlier defensiveness can be attributed to what I perceived to be people here criticizing just for the sake of criticizing, and in my humble opinion, they're as guilty of being tactless with me as I was with my buyer. So I thank you again for injecting some calm into this thread.
<< <i>I take it you don't want to share the link?
You think a guy this paranoid would share the link to any of his auctions, thereby exposing his ebay identity to us potential scammers? Not a chance. He's too busy stocking his bomb shelter with bottled water and spam, and making tinfoil helmets so the government can't read his mind. >>
If you're really determined, I've left enough of a trail for you to find my ebay ID rather easily. Seems to me that Steve is not only nosy, but also a bit lazy as well! If you search the B/S/T board over the past week or two, you'll find exactly what you're looking for, and then by deduction, you'll be able to figure out exactly which three items are the ebay listings involved here. Think of it as a scavenger hunt! Then you can come back here and report!
Pay Pal/ebay gets about $700-900 a month from me, and maybe $2-3 a year more with this (no-so) new policity. Of all the many problems I have with them and the system, $0.30 for a service they did provide is not an issue.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
It's about being able to issue a refund instantly even when I have no other funds in my PayPal balance instead of waiting 5 freakin' days for a stupid e-check to clear from my own bank account.
I might be the most stubborn person on the face of the earth, but I'm not dense. I'm very perceptive and I know what's going on. Sometimes I just don't care!
And yet, you continue to blame, ebay, pay pal and the customer, and still, the strangest thing I have ever heard from a seller, demand a second payment because you didn't have $1.00 in your account. You know, maybe the postman and your internet provider is also to blaime.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Whoever mentioned about the Fees with Paypal was right!! The Frickin Crooks refunded the Fees for the first 10-12 transactions and then no Fee refunds after that.......................F$Ckin' Mafia!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>
It's nonsense like this that makes me find it morally excusable or even justifiable to circumvent ebay/paypal fees, or to just stiff them altogether. Now they stifle communication and make it nearly impossible to even get someone's real e-mail address, and bottom feeders want everything for free, then complain (by using the pointless new 5-star system) about lack of communication just because I didn't compose a personalized message with their tracking number after they paid and I shipped. I would never scam another person, but I find that more and more of the time I spend on the ebay website is devoted to finding ways that I can circumvent some fee or regulation like a common criminal. It's such a shame that it has become such a big business that forgot its roots long ago.
>>
Wow, very well said, I, like you, am basically an honest person, but my Sordid dealings with E-Bay and Paypal have led me down the path to Perdition!!!
I try and do as much of my dealings outside of E-Bay as possible, for all the reasons above, and the 12%-20% of every sale they expect is userous and tandamount to a Monopoly. If somebody contacts me and offers me anything reasonable...My answer is He!! Yes!! E-Pig and PigPal!! can KMA!!
YeeHah
Neil
If ebay is so terrible, then why not find another avenue to sell? It is completely wrong to place an item on ebay, then sell it off of ebay to someone that initially found it on ebay. You are using the service for free that most people pay for. Why not sell it on craigslist? They have free listings. The reason you don't sell it on craigslist is because you won't get the same results as on ebay. Therefore, ebay charges more than craigslist, yet more people sell through ebay than craigslist because they get better results.
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<< <i>Read your bold statement and your last reply....it is about the $0.30, which again, was for a service you used. Maybe to you it is the principle of the $0.30, which means you are completely wrong. There are no free rides in life, you used their service, they changed a fair $0.30 plus a percent. Yes, you did not understand they would hold that last refund, we understand that. But that is where the problem happened....YOU did not understand. Not that you did not use their service, or that they did not provide the service.
And yet, you continue to blame, ebay, pay pal and the customer, and still, the strangest thing I have ever heard from a seller, demand a second payment because you didn't have $1.00 in your account. You know, maybe the postman and your internet provider is also to blaime. >>
You are making this a black and white issue, which it most certainly is not. It is a multi-layered problem, and when analyzed from a consequentialist perspective, is apparently too complex for you to conceptualize. Yes I have a problem with the change in policy, not only because it is greedy, but because the precedent had been set over the past 10 years that payments were 100% reversible. No longer is this the case. I understand it's a free market and I don't have to use their service, and what they're doing is probably legal. That doesn't make it fair, just, or right. My favorite line from the movie 8MM comes to mind: "He did it because he could."
The first domino that fell was this change in policy, which is similar to the scam in Office Space - taking pennies at a time from those who won't really notice they're gone. PayPal's decision to take 30 cents on each refund is 100% wrong in my opinion, but not really a big deal on its own. The real problem is that it has unintended consequences, so in addition to being exploited for 30 cents (again, not a big deal, but worth noting due to the principle of the matter), the customer is also severely inconvenienced by having to wait for an e-check to clear in order to issue a refund. This is the real problem. How you can fail to see that this is a multi-layered issue is incomprehensible to me.
You blame me for not having $1.00 in my PayPal balance, but what if this had been the first payment I'd received in months? What if these were the only three items I had listed on ebay? I'm not really that active a seller on ebay. You blame me for not having the foresight to be prepared for the situation I found myself in, yet there was no way for me to predict what was going to happen because I was in unchartered waters. The policy change is relatively recent (August of this year), and while I knew the 90 cents I was short on the third refund would come from my bank account, there was no warning message indicating that the transfer/refund would not be instant. Only after I clicked to issue the refund did I see a notification that the funds would not clear until December 22. I then immediately tried to pull back this refund, since is was "pending," and I found no option allowing me to do that.
PayPal is able to send instant payments from bank accounts. I don't see why they can't also send instant refunds from bank accounts. And since they don't, they should at least indicate such on the screen that shows the refund button, so I can choose not to click it if I don't like the terms. They never afforded me that courtesy or opportunity.
It's not really about the 30 cents. It's about the greed that PayPal has for the 30 cents and the domino effect of unintended consequences. They obviously don't care about their own customers, and it's vile.
Let me explain. No, it's too long, let me sum up:
1) Buyers who pay right away are scum and not to be trusted.
2) Buyers must take and pass the advanced EBay buyers test in order to be sure and not make any mistakes.
3) The internet rule that says anyone who complains about the spelling/grammatical skills of another had better double- and triple-check their own posts is proven once again.
4) People who rant about greedy corporations making money for providing services really need to go full-on Luddite and leave the internet.
Did I miss any details?
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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<< <i>3) The internet rule that says anyone who complains about the spelling/grammatical skills of another had better double- and triple-check their own posts is proven once again. >>
Please elaborate by citing specific examples, thank you.
<< <i>
<< <i>3) The internet rule that says anyone who complains about the spelling/grammatical skills of another had better double- and triple-check their own posts is proven once again. >>
Please elaborate by citing specific examples, thank you. >>
Snipped from your letter to the buyer:
Because the ebay system is complete messed up, it won't allow me to combine all three auctions into a single invoice, because that last refund hasn't yet been finalized.
That's without picking on the "Wizard of Oz"-like usage of "because, ,because" in there.
EDIT: I'm generally not one to start picking on grammar or spelling in an informal message board setting, but I'll darn sure pick on "someone picking on someone's grammar". Hence the reference to the internet rule.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
Just doing my part in getting this thread to 100.
I'd send the shipment with signature required in case it is a scam. You'll then have your proof that it was received.
wouldnt you have to send each item separately? he could just file a claim and say only one package arrived?
<< <i>EDIT: I'm generally not one to start picking on grammar or spelling in an informal message board setting, but I'll darn sure pick on "someone picking on someone's grammar". Hence the reference to the internet rule. >>
Dude what the hell are you talking about? When did I ever complain about anyone else's grammar or spelling?