Fake Seated Dollars in Fake PCGS slabs
RichieURich
Posts: 8,523 ✭✭✭✭✭
Since there is a similar thread about Fake Morgan Dollars in Fake PCGS Slabs, I decided to post this article, originally published in my October 11, 2010 newsletter, copyright 2010 Rich Uhrich Rare U. S. Coins Inc.:
Recently, I ordered two Liberty Seated dollars, sight unseen, from a company in Burnsville, Minnesota. The coins they sent were two counterfeit Liberty Seated dollars in counterfeit PCGS slabs: an 1856 Seated Dollar, PCGS XF40 (#13498242), and an 1845 Seated Dollar, PCGS VF30 (#22107035). To see pictures of the coins and slabs, Click here
I returned the two coins to the company and stated that they are counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs. Although they insisted they were genuine, they sent an e-mail stating they would be returning them to Heritage, where they came from. They later sent me another e-mail stating that Heritage received the coins and dertermined "the 1856 is genuine, but cleaned and in a counterfeit holder. The 1845 is a counterfeit coin in a genuine holder."
I forwarded this e-mail to my contact at Heritage, who subsequently e-mailed me: "we have received no such coins from them and in fact did not sell them coins in cft [counterfeit] PCGFS slabs. They are completely mistaken. The coins do not match the ones sold at auction years ago."
Heritage's auction archives show that the two slab numbers are identical to coins that Heritage sold. However, the coins inside the slabs when Heritage sold them are NOT the coins they sent me. The coins and the slabs are of sufficient quality that a collector who is not familiar with seated dollars could be fooled. The experienced seated dollar collector will recognize these as counterfeit coins, because of the date style. I provided information and images of these coins to both Heritage and PCGS. I was able to obtain a refund but only after I sent an extremely forceful e-mail to the company.
There are several things taking place about the above, which I cannot disclose at this time.
Recently, I ordered two Liberty Seated dollars, sight unseen, from a company in Burnsville, Minnesota. The coins they sent were two counterfeit Liberty Seated dollars in counterfeit PCGS slabs: an 1856 Seated Dollar, PCGS XF40 (#13498242), and an 1845 Seated Dollar, PCGS VF30 (#22107035). To see pictures of the coins and slabs, Click here
I returned the two coins to the company and stated that they are counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs. Although they insisted they were genuine, they sent an e-mail stating they would be returning them to Heritage, where they came from. They later sent me another e-mail stating that Heritage received the coins and dertermined "the 1856 is genuine, but cleaned and in a counterfeit holder. The 1845 is a counterfeit coin in a genuine holder."
I forwarded this e-mail to my contact at Heritage, who subsequently e-mailed me: "we have received no such coins from them and in fact did not sell them coins in cft [counterfeit] PCGFS slabs. They are completely mistaken. The coins do not match the ones sold at auction years ago."
Heritage's auction archives show that the two slab numbers are identical to coins that Heritage sold. However, the coins inside the slabs when Heritage sold them are NOT the coins they sent me. The coins and the slabs are of sufficient quality that a collector who is not familiar with seated dollars could be fooled. The experienced seated dollar collector will recognize these as counterfeit coins, because of the date style. I provided information and images of these coins to both Heritage and PCGS. I was able to obtain a refund but only after I sent an extremely forceful e-mail to the company.
There are several things taking place about the above, which I cannot disclose at this time.
0
Comments
Please update when matter is fully resolved.
A few years ago, I would have been fooled,
today I would be very suspicious as I am becoming a better grader, but many newbies would be stuck when they tried to sell
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I've oftern wondered if the coins in fake slabs were fakes themselves, or just problem coins.
The 1845 is pretty amateurish esp with the date numerals.
Thanks for the heads up.
roadrunner
<< <i>There are several things taking place about the above, which I cannot disclose at this time. >>
Thx for the update, will look forward to hearing the rest of it.
Can you confirm that you were indeed made whole, as previously indicated?
Tom
<< <i>It is becoming even more than scary now.... Cheers, RickO >>
I'm in accord. This makes me quite hesitant to purchase coins other than moderns.
<< <i>
<< <i>There are several things taking place about the above, which I cannot disclose at this time. >>
Thx for the update, will look forward to hearing the rest of it.
Can you confirm that you were indeed made whole, as previously indicated? >>
I did receive and deposit two refund checks totaling the amount of my order. Such checks have cleared my bank and have not been reversed. If that company's bank decides to reverse the checks at this late date, that bank will be taking a huge risk that in my opinion would be ill-advised.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I would like to thank you for your post. It has educated me greatly in this field of growing concern for counterfeits. I truly appreciate this opportunity to learn and thus, better myself in this regard.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I could see dealers and collectors at small shows readily buying them as authentic coins and slabs. I'm guessing there are many of them already out there, unfortunately.
Here's the coins they sent me. They are all key date Barber halves. The second I rec'd them I knew they were counterfeit. When I called them they ignored me. There is a very long story that maybe someday I can tell.
Here's the fake 1893-S Barber they first sent me:
Notice the bad date which is the first giveaway it's fake along with the denticles:
More pics, including the whole lot:
This just absolutely disgusts me. I still get upset about it. I knew they were fake and they totally blew me off . They also told me after I told them they were fake they bought them from Heritage or something to that extent!! Similiar MO used on Rich......
No stamps about "copy" on the coins.
and the email address inside the "Dasco" is jinghuashei@yahoo.com
I bet he could point you in the right direction for some more goodies.
http://www.jinghuashei.com/
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>the email address inside the "Dasco" is jinghuashei@yahoo.com
http://www.jinghuashei.com/ >>
....gross....
<< <i>I don't understand the necessity for all the secrecy regarding identifying the Perpetrator here. It might keep others from being screwed. >>
Rich stated
<< <i>...from a company in Burnsville, Minnesota >>
How many coin dealers can there be there?
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't understand the necessity for all the secrecy regarding identifying the Perpetrator here. It might keep others from being screwed. >>
Rich stated
<< <i>...from a company in Burnsville, Minnesota >>
How many coin dealers can there be there?
Zackly. I'd like to know if it's AMS. Yeah or nay?
http://www.jinghuashei.com/ >>
I guess that answers my question about if there are any real coins in the fake holders. A "coin plant." Amazing! With presses, dies, the whole nine yards. Check their Products list: (C&P"ed from their site)
· Gold
· $20 Double Eagle
· $10 Eagle
· $5 Half Eagle
· $2.50 Quarter Eagle
· mixture date
· Dollars
· Peace (1921-35)
· Morgan (1878-1921)
· Seated Liberty (1840-73)
· Gobrecht
· Early Dollars (1794-1804)
· Commemorative
· Halves
· Liberty Walking (1916-47)
· Barber (1892-1915)
· Seated Liberty (1839-91)
· Early Halves (1794-1839)
· Quarters
· Washington (1932-98)
· Standing Liberty (1916-30)
· Barber (1892-1916)
· Seated Liberty (1838-91)
· Bust (1796-1838)
· Twenty Cents
· Dimes
· Mercury (1916-45)
· Barber (1892-1916)
· Seated Liberty (1837-91)
· Bust (1796-1837)
· Half Dimes
· Seated (1837-1873)
· Early (1792-1837)
· Nickels
· Buffalo (1913-38)
· Liberty (1883-1913)
· Shield (1866-83)
· Three Cents
· 3c Silvers
· 3c Nickels
· Two Cents
· Small Cents
· Lincoln Wheat (1909-1958)
· Indian Head (1859-1909)
· Flying Eagle (1856-58)
· Large Cent
· Braided Hair (1840-57)
· Coronet Head (1816-39)
· Classic Head (1808-14)
· Draped Bust (1796-1807)
· Early (1793-96)
· Half Cents
· collection book
<< <i>I agree, what else can be fake? >>
We could pay him with fake money?
I asked Roger regarding this and he noted such a book might benefit the counterfeiters--hadn't thought of that. It truly is becoming frightening when you must be completely proficient in every aspect of coin identification and the holder it comes in just to buy a coin. I know of the adage, buy the coin not the plastic, but now that has become even more accurate than ever.
I am afraid that this may very well be a long term cancer to our hobby, that will not easily be rectified. One aspect of these counterfeit coins may very well be that even those who knowingly buy them for their own reasons may inadvertently pass them on after their death or in crisis to unsuspecting buyers. I do not think that anyone who buys from jinghuashei is in the dark about the coin's genuineness and they have been selling on ebay for four years with nearly 10K sales. Therefore, many individuals have counterfeit coins that are not marked copy and will undoubtedly eventually dupe buyers. This is just one seller. Hopefully, our dealer/collector network will find a cure to this disease that will benefit all.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< I do not think that anyone who buys from jinghuashei is in the dark about the coin's genuineness and they have been selling on ebay for four years with nearly 10K sales. >>
I was. I wouldn't have known if that link hadn't been posted. Everybody knows that most of the Trade Dollars on eBay are fake but I had no clue half of everything else was too.
<< <i>I wonder if anyone is currently working on a book explaining methods of discovery for counterfeit coins and their holders? I do not mean a basic "Look out" book but one that explains the various methods of identifying fakes in each of the many coin series(such as various differences in dates, mintmarks, stars, liberty's, font styles, holder variations from genuine). I realize this is all available from the many great books available on each series(not to include holders), but to have it all together in one source-be it print, disc, or online, would be so beneficial to the collecting hobby as a whole. I have most of the books lacking only a few of the earliest coins, but if someone could even start a sysem for online and have the many different experts add their knowledge. I do not think that it would steal anyone's thunder, but would truly benefit everyone in the industry alike--sellers and buyers.
I asked Roger regarding this and he noted such a book might benefit the counterfeiters--hadn't thought of that. It truly is becoming frightening when you must be completely proficient in every aspect of coin identification and the holder it comes in just to buy a coin. I know of the adage, buy the coin not the plastic, but now that has become even more accurate than ever.
I am afraid that this may very well be a long term cancer to our hobby, that will not easily be rectified. One aspect of these counterfeit coins may very well be that even those who knowingly buy them for their own reasons may inadvertently pass them on after their death or in crisis to unsuspecting buyers. I do not think that anyone who buys from jinghuashei is in the dark about the coin's genuineness and they have been selling on ebay for four years with nearly 10K sales. Therefore, many individuals have counterfeit coins that are not marked copy and will undoubtedly eventually dupe buyers. This is just one seller. Hopefully, our dealer/collector network will find a cure to this disease that will benefit all.
Jim >>
A book, a video, even a live course will tend to get a person to where crude fakes and maybe mid-level fakes will be weeded out, depending on the student. At the apex, the pro-quality fakes, it takes a pro level expert that has had years of training and is devoted to constant updates on the latest fakes. Once the book is published, many of the first customers will be those making the fakes, so yes, it will help them more than anyone.
The story in the original post is very scary. Be careful out there. Again, I am about at the point, where I only plan to buy from reputable dealers, preferably those who have top flight authentication skills (definitely less than 20% of bourse dealers, maybe less than 5%). That means Ebay is for the most part out of the picture for me. This goes for raw or slabbed. Slabbed means next to nothing now from unknown sellers, because of the explosion in the reports of fake slabs.
I tend to believe that there are literally thousands of fake slabs already in collections, that the buyers paid millions of dollars for, since many of the fake slabs target high value coins. The buyers don't even know they have been ripped off yet. It is going to be a very sad day of reckoning for those buyers. Many of them may try to sell their fakes without knowing what they have. That is where the danger gets multiplied. They may sell online, or at the local coin club, or flea market, or at the local show. If the next person isn't an expert, the fake gets passed again, in what used to be a "safe" venue.
<< <i>jesbroken
<< I do not think that anyone who buys from jinghuashei is in the dark about the coin's genuineness and they have been selling on ebay for four years with nearly 10K sales. >>
I was. I wouldn't have known if that link hadn't been posted. Everybody knows that most of the Trade Dollars on eBay are fake but I had no clue half of everything else was too. >>
Dog, you were absent for the last few years.....this counterfeiter was discussed on the boards and in CW.....and everything is counterfeitable....kind of like 1964 Peace Dollars. Why, I even bet, as Jesbroken states, that his buyers knew they were fakes.......so, according to some in their way of thining, it may be ok for him not to have "copy" on them as they have the providence known of not being real...just like some 1964 Peace Dollars. You can even get "fantasy pieces" from the counterfeiters (dates that didn't exist with that design or at all....and the counterfeiters have them or will do them........just ask a non-coin collecting friend of mine who bought a US "silver dollar" from 1906.....with a walking liberty design to book.....but, some will say he should have known better and should be more informed. Luckily, he was only out about $10-$12, but I say no 'fantasy piece' of a real coin should be allowed and anyone that acts like a professional minter should know better).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
It's only going to get worse until there's a system in place to legitimize a product.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
even if PCGS changes things frequently, there will always be PCGS slabs from 10-15 years ago
and they could be counterfeited as well - until the certification look-up report states date of grading/reholdering and a link to the style slab used at that time
cert numbers to check if slab is legit, is rather useless
maybe Heritage should start their own search by cert # as it seems that is a good source of numbers for counterfeiters
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< I do not think that anyone who buys from jinghuashei is in the dark about the coin's genuineness and they have been selling on ebay for four years with nearly 10K sales. >>
I was. I wouldn't have known if that link hadn't been posted. Everybody knows that most of the Trade Dollars on eBay are fake but I had no clue half of everything else was too. >>
Dog, you were absent for the last few years.....this counterfeiter was discussed on the boards and in CW.....and everything is counterfeitable.... >>
That's good. Even though I hadn't posted lately I still called myself hip to what was going on with coins. I thought AT & coin doctors were still public enemy #1. Jeeze...just think about the millions & millions of average collectors that don't read this board or CW. Hell, look at the previous posters that do and still got burned.
<< <i>I disagree with Leos post
even if PCGS changes things frequently, there will always be PCGS slabs from 10-15 years ago
and they could be counterfeited as well - until the certification look-up report states date of grading/reholdering and a link to the style slab used at that time
cert numbers to check if slab is legit, is rather useless
maybe Heritage should start their own search by cert # as it seems that is a good source of numbers for counterfeiters >>
I was thinking along the lines of what's been done with our paper currency.
While I don't have the answers, I can make a few suggestions. And I would like to think that there are solutions in the works to solve this problem. Coins that have been certified 10-15 years ago could simply be reholdered.
Perhaps the coin needs to be sealed within the insert that holds the coin inside the holder. A tamper-proof type of seal.
Or the use of barcodes could be given to each insert and whenever a coin changes hands, that coin would be registered to the new owner through the use of a credit type card. The same way funds are entered back onto your debit or credit card when you return something. The card is swiped and the coin gets scanned and the number on the insert is entered into your coin account. no-one knows the numbers on the insert and no-one knows your card number or a possible password.
The sale of certified coins could be policed as well. Before a coin exchanges hands, it would need to make a pit stop at some kind of inspection station so it can be determined if the coin or holder has been tampered with while in possession of the last owner before it moves on to the next owner. Of course, this would on be for coins of substantial value.
The inserts could carry different holigraphic labels for certain length of times.
If there is no solution to where a collector can safely take possession of his coins, then I can see where all coins of substantial value would need to be gathered and entered into a large holding bank or institution. You can buy, own and sell the coins, they just never physically change hands. If you wanted to see them, you would have to visit where they are being held.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Leo >>
>>
Leo, does that mean the "holding bank or institution" would be located approximately in the geographical center of the US?
Could you not even take your valuable coins to shows or coin clubs?
I, for one, wouldn't buy a coin susceptible to these rules, thus making it less valuable.
There are many unanswered questions besides these. I'll let someone else ask them.
"And that's all I have to say about that". Forrest Gump.
JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
And an added note. We have collectors who have inferior coins in their registry sets. Right here in front of everyone's eyes and they don't care about the quality coin they're buying. There are millions of collectors out there who could care less about having their coins certified...........
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
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<< <i>I disagree with Leos post
even if PCGS changes things frequently, there will always be PCGS slabs from 10-15 years ago
and they could be counterfeited as well - until the certification look-up report states date of grading/reholdering and a link to the style slab used at that time
cert numbers to check if slab is legit, is rather useless
maybe Heritage should start their own search by cert # as it seems that is a good source of numbers for counterfeiters >>