Wow busy night! This was Partially my fault. Seller did produce a recipt of mailing, but assumed that some insurance was automatically included which is incorrect. Item was said to be mailed on 10/13 via priority. As for my rep or whatever board members call it, I have done deals with many of you with no issues. If I did mess up, I try to be straight about it as I care what board members here think. I've also dome business with many of you in person. Hopefully that has shown that I am not a low life or thief.
And As a seller on the bst, I always include insurance for anything over $50. And delivery conf to protect myself. I will not out him until he replied and is given a chance to make things right. The only thing that irked me is he felt he made no mistake. But lesson learned. Thankfully it was a small purchase. And I can no longer assume all bst sellers are honest.
Paypal +/- 3% or nothing unless I know the seller. AJ
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
If the seller was close, I'd take it to small claims court. If not, there isn't a lot you can do for that amount. In either case they need to be outed so at least others can be warned about doing business with people like this.
<< <i>Thankfully it was a small purchase. And I can no longer assume all bst sellers are honest. >>
Based on the info you provided on the transaction, can't see where you can rightfully call the seller dishonest. Unless of course there is something more that you haven't presented. Unless insurance was included in the agreement, seller lived up to his part of the deal. Failure to include insurance is just as much your fault as his. Assuming insurance was included, by either party, was an error in judgement. Seller was actually quite generous with his refund, consider yourself lucky to have picked him to buy from.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
<< <i>Wow busy night! This was Partially my fault. Seller did produce a recipt of mailing, but assumed that some insurance was automatically included which is incorrect. Item was said to be mailed on 10/13 via priority. As for my rep or whatever board members call it, I have done deals with many of you with no issues. If I did mess up, I try to be straight about it as I care what board members here think. I've also dome business with many of you in person. Hopefully that has shown that I am not a low life or thief.
And As a seller on the bst, I always include insurance for anything over $50. And delivery conf to protect myself. I will not out him until he replied and is given a chance to make things right. The only thing that irked me is he felt he made no mistake. But lesson learned. Thankfully it was a small purchase. And I can no longer assume all bst sellers are honest.
Paypal +/- 3% or nothing unless I know the seller. AJ >>
If it was mailed on 10/13 it will probably show up. We are talking about 7 business days with 2 weekends. I had a Priority packaged get mixed up with Parcel Post.
Here in MA Priority goes to Nashua, NH and then out to destination city. Parcel Post goes to Springfield MA First Class usually goes to Boston or Providence RI
When buyer asked me about package I saw it was scanned in Springfield MA. I asked PO clerk why Springfield and she told me that is where Parcel Post mail goes. It was there for over a week before it was sent on.
Well..let me face the firing squad! Guess I missed out last night by watching the Mizzou game instead of reading the boards.........the seller of this item were none other then MYSELF!!! Let me start by saying i have 100% feedback on ebay as "shortstopmezz" and have ZER0 negative run-ins on this forum..other then being scammed out of $850 about a month ago on the BST. So, for any of you on this forum that want to hide behind a computer and call me a scammer or a rip off artist..feel free to PM me and i'll be glad to send you my home address and we can talk about it. Ankur sent me a check for $220 for (5) 1 gram gold bars "shipped". His check took about 10 days to arrive....when it did, i cashed the check, and mailed the bars the NEXT day. It was shipped 10/13 at noon from my local post office USPS Priority Mail. Not Insured( again this might be a screw up on my part, but i never have assumed it i purchase something shipped it will be insured unless it has said so). So, Ankur and i have been in contact EVERYDAY the last week...i haven't dodged his emails or just told him to screw off.. i have emailed or PM'd him everyday asking if the bars have showed up...i emailed him a copy of the reciept showing priority mail delivered to his city and zip. So, fast forward to yesterday...he emailed me and said still nothing.....he wanted a refund because he couldn't have this money tied up so long, and he wanted to know my plans. I told him my plan was to file a "lost mail form" monday with the post office...he said no, go ahead and refund my money thru paypal, and if they show up he would keep them and send the money back. I told him i did not believe it was all my fault or his fault and that neither of us should take the full hit.....i offered to send him back $170. He would be out $50 and i was out the gold.....VERY FAIR in my opinion. Fast forward to now......this is where we stand, he got his paypal refund of the money, and i'm out the gold.......as for anyone that thinks this was a quick way to make $50.....give me a break, i have a real job, a real family, and a real life outside these forums.....if i were going to rip someone off for $50, i'd find a way to do it without being out 5g of gold and $5 worth of shipping.
"When someone tells you nothing is impossible, ask them to dribble a football"
<< <i>Well..let me face the firing squad! Guess I missed out last night by watching the Mizzou game instead of reading the boards.........the seller of this item were none other then MYSELF!!! Let me start by saying i have 100% feedback on ebay as "shortstopmezz" and have ZER0 negative run-ins on this forum..other then being scammed out of $850 about a month ago on the BST. So, for any of you on this forum that want to hide behind a computer and call me a scammer or a rip off artist..feel free to PM me and i'll be glad to send you my home address and we can talk about it. Ankur sent me a check for $220 for (5) 1 gram gold bars "shipped". His check took about 10 days to arrive....when it did, i cashed the check, and mailed the bars the NEXT day. It was shipped 10/13 at noon from my local post office USPS Priority Mail. Not Insured( again this might be a screw up on my part, but i never have assumed it i purchase something shipped it will be insured unless it has said so). So, Ankur and i have been in contact EVERYDAY the last week...i haven't dodged his emails or just told him to screw off.. i have emailed or PM'd him everyday asking if the bars have showed up...i emailed him a copy of the reciept showing priority mail delivered to his city and zip. So, fast forward to yesterday...he emailed me and said still nothing.....he wanted a refund because he couldn't have this money tied up so long, and he wanted to know my plans. I told him my plan was to file a "lost mail form" monday with the post office...he said no, go ahead and refund my money thru paypal, and if they show up he would keep them and send the money back. I told him i did not believe it was all my fault or his fault and that neither of us should take the full hit.....i offered to send him back $170. He would be out $50 and i was out the gold.....VERY FAIR in my opinion. Fast forward to now......this is where we stand, he got his paypal refund of the money, and i'm out the gold.......as for anyone that thinks this was a quick way to make $50.....give me a break, i have a real job, a real family, and a real life outside these forums.....if i were going to rip someone off for $50, i'd find a way to do it without being out 5g of gold and $5 worth of shipping. >>
other side of the story!
Too bad that you are out the 5g gold Plus $170 if the priority mail does not show up. At the very least I always add delivery confirm or sig confirmation because in my apt complex my mail gets put in the wrong box frequently.
<< <i>Thankfully it was a small purchase. And I can no longer assume all bst sellers are honest. >>
Based on the info you provided on the transaction, can't see where you can rightfully call the seller dishonest. Unless of course there is something more that you haven't presented. Unless insurance was included in the agreement, seller lived up to his part of the deal. Failure to include insurance is just as much your fault as his. Assuming insurance was included, by either party, was an error in judgement. Seller was actually quite generous with his refund, consider yourself lucky to have picked him to buy from. >>
<< <i>Well..let me face the firing squad! Guess I missed out last night by watching the Mizzou game instead of reading the boards.........the seller of this item were none other then MYSELF!!! Let me start by saying i have 100% feedback on ebay as "shortstopmezz" and have ZER0 negative run-ins on this forum..other then being scammed out of $850 about a month ago on the BST. So, for any of you on this forum that want to hide behind a computer and call me a scammer or a rip off artist..feel free to PM me and i'll be glad to send you my home address and we can talk about it. Ankur sent me a check for $220 for (5) 1 gram gold bars "shipped". His check took about 10 days to arrive....when it did, i cashed the check, and mailed the bars the NEXT day. It was shipped 10/13 at noon from my local post office USPS Priority Mail. Not Insured( again this might be a screw up on my part, but i never have assumed it i purchase something shipped it will be insured unless it has said so). So, Ankur and i have been in contact EVERYDAY the last week...i haven't dodged his emails or just told him to screw off.. i have emailed or PM'd him everyday asking if the bars have showed up...i emailed him a copy of the reciept showing priority mail delivered to his city and zip. So, fast forward to yesterday...he emailed me and said still nothing.....he wanted a refund because he couldn't have this money tied up so long, and he wanted to know my plans. I told him my plan was to file a "lost mail form" monday with the post office...he said no, go ahead and refund my money thru paypal, and if they show up he would keep them and send the money back. I told him i did not believe it was all my fault or his fault and that neither of us should take the full hit.....i offered to send him back $170. He would be out $50 and i was out the gold.....VERY FAIR in my opinion. Fast forward to now......this is where we stand, he got his paypal refund of the money, and i'm out the gold.......as for anyone that thinks this was a quick way to make $50.....give me a break, i have a real job, a real family, and a real life outside these forums.....if i were going to rip someone off for $50, i'd find a way to do it without being out 5g of gold and $5 worth of shipping. >>
Thank you for posting your side of the strory. Without saying outright who is right or wrong, I would not refund a buyer this quickly for a Priority Mail item. USPS does not consider an item lost until 21 days after mailing. I would have sent the OP the mailing receipt and asked him to wait a while longer.
If you want something sent insured, ask that it be sent insured and then expect to pay for it.
As Robert Heinlein used to say: TANSTAAFL! There ain't no such thing as a free lunch!
Stepping off the soapbox now.
TD
PS: Mail service really sucks these days. The package might yet show up.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
As a buyer, i don't tell the seller how to do his business. If he wants to insure it, ok. If he has 3rd party insurance, I don't inquire about that. if he wants to self insure, I support that. I don't feel the need to tell him to insure it.
As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed.
In this case, the package has been declared lost by the participants prematurely. the fact that the seller is so quick to assume it is lost makes me suspicious but he has a receipt so that calms my concerns.
<< <i>If the seller was close, I'd take it to small claims court. If not, there isn't a lot you can do for that amount. In either case they need to be outed so at least others can be warned about doing business with people like this. >>
I am not sure where you live but the last time i filed a small claims case i think it was around 200 dollars with service. Even after you have your day in court it does not mean you are going to collect. It has been the opposite for me, i have won every time only to have to spend another 125 dollars to get the judgement recorded or pay to have enforcement action. On the bright side, everytime i have filed a small claims court case i have had my day in court in about 21 days. From start to finish i can get my evictions done in 26 days or slighty less. The last few have taken a day or 2 longer to verify no one is in the military. I talked the last one into moving for 125 cash. Save me 2 weeks and 100 bucks.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>Well..let me face the firing squad! Guess I missed out last night by watching the Mizzou game instead of reading the boards.........the seller of this item were none other then MYSELF!!! Let me start by saying i have 100% feedback on ebay as "shortstopmezz" and have ZER0 negative run-ins on this forum..other then being scammed out of $850 about a month ago on the BST. So, for any of you on this forum that want to hide behind a computer and call me a scammer or a rip off artist..feel free to PM me and i'll be glad to send you my home address and we can talk about it. Ankur sent me a check for $220 for (5) 1 gram gold bars "shipped". His check took about 10 days to arrive....when it did, i cashed the check, and mailed the bars the NEXT day. It was shipped 10/13 at noon from my local post office USPS Priority Mail. Not Insured( again this might be a screw up on my part, but i never have assumed it i purchase something shipped it will be insured unless it has said so). So, Ankur and i have been in contact EVERYDAY the last week...i haven't dodged his emails or just told him to screw off.. i have emailed or PM'd him everyday asking if the bars have showed up...i emailed him a copy of the reciept showing priority mail delivered to his city and zip. So, fast forward to yesterday...he emailed me and said still nothing.....he wanted a refund because he couldn't have this money tied up so long, and he wanted to know my plans. I told him my plan was to file a "lost mail form" monday with the post office...he said no, go ahead and refund my money thru paypal, and if they show up he would keep them and send the money back. I told him i did not believe it was all my fault or his fault and that neither of us should take the full hit.....i offered to send him back $170. He would be out $50 and i was out the gold.....VERY FAIR in my opinion. Fast forward to now......this is where we stand, he got his paypal refund of the money, and i'm out the gold.......as for anyone that thinks this was a quick way to make $50.....give me a break, i have a real job, a real family, and a real life outside these forums.....if i were going to rip someone off for $50, i'd find a way to do it without being out 5g of gold and $5 worth of shipping. >>
If you just got scammed 850 bucks a month ago, you are a slow learner. You have now crossed the 1000 dollar mark. Protect yourself and pass that cost to the buyer or just eat it if you have to. In this global deal you do not really know who you are dealing with, i just assume the worst, and go from there. I have been burnt in the past and trust no one. Those that pound their chest claiming they are saints or well respected have caused me the most grief. Not everyone is as good as coinguy1.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>If the seller was close, I'd take it to small claims court. If not, there isn't a lot you can do for that amount. In either case they need to be outed so at least others can be warned about doing business with people like this. >>
Small claims court over a $50 dispute? Dang, your time must be worth close to nothing!
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>If the seller was close, I'd take it to small claims court. If not, there isn't a lot you can do for that amount. In either case they need to be outed so at least others can be warned about doing business with people like this. >>
Small claims court over a $50 dispute? Dang, your time must be worth close to nothing! >>
And that doesn't even consider the fact that the two parties apparently failed to discuss insurance in advance and incorporate it into their agreement. This was not an Ebay transaction, so different rules apply. I think that the buyer was fortunate to have gotten what he did.
<< <i>If the seller was close, I'd take it to small claims court. If not, there isn't a lot you can do for that amount. In either case they need to be outed so at least others can be warned about doing business with people like this. >>
Small claims court over a $50 dispute? Dang, your time must be worth close to nothing! >>
And that doesn't even consider the fact that the two parties apparently failed to discuss insurance in advance and incorporate it into their agreement. This was not an Ebay transaction, so different rules apply. I think that the buyer was fortunate to have gotten what he did. >>
Seller is to be applauded for making sure buyer was fortunate.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
<< <i>As a buyer, i don't tell the seller how to do his business. If he wants to insure it, ok. If he has 3rd party insurance, I don't inquire about that. if he wants to self insure, I support that. I don't feel the need to tell him to insure it.
As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed.
In this case, the package has been declared lost by the participants prematurely. the fact that the seller is so quick to assume it is lost makes me suspicious but he has a receipt so that calms my concerns.
--Jerry >>
Finally somebody got it right. If you pay a delivered price for anything to be mailed to you you have the right to receive it or get a refund.
<< <i>As a buyer, i don't tell the seller how to do his business. If he wants to insure it, ok. If he has 3rd party insurance, I don't inquire about that. if he wants to self insure, I support that. I don't feel the need to tell him to insure it.
As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed.
In this case, the package has been declared lost by the participants prematurely. the fact that the seller is so quick to assume it is lost makes me suspicious but he has a receipt so that calms my concerns.
--Jerry >>
Finally somebody got it right. If you pay a delivered price for anything to be mailed to you you have the right to receive it or get a refund. >>
Unfortunately most transactions include a provision for "shipping" and no provision for "delivery." One involves guaranteeing item is delivered to the shipper and the other involves guranteeing the item is delivered to the buyer. Insurance, not the seller, gurantees delivery to the buyer. Who pays for the insurance and whether are not it is used should be determined by the two, not by forum discussion.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
If this went to court in my state, the judge would call the docket and send everyone to the hall to see if they can work it out. From what I understand as far as facts, that have been posted, this should never go to court. The judge would be ticked and no one would walk away as a winner. I feel the sellers offer was fair based on what has been posted on both sides of this deal. I would almost bet that the package will show up and the USPS will be the bad guy.
What we have here is a failure to communicate. Buyers beware. The law is clear. The Uniform Commercial Code applies to transactions involving "goods". That Code has been adopted in most if not all states. Under the Uniform Commercial Code the law regarding risk of loss in mail is clear. Here it is:
"(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier
(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation; but
(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination and the goods are there duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are there duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery. "
The issue is whether delivery at a particular location was a term of the contract. If it was "shipped" only, then delivery to a particular location was not required. So in most instances, unless "delivery" is separately stated, then the title to the goods passes when shipped and therefore the risk of loss is on the buyer.
I know Ebay has rules to prevent this. However, when purchasing outside of Ebay, all buyers should be aware of this and request "delivery" be guaranteed or request insurance!
Hats off to the seller here for going far beyond what is required of him legally.
Hope this clears up any confusion. This really was a simple misunderstanding by the parties involved with no real wrongdoing by either. However, the legal result would leave the buyer with no remedy.
Buyer and seller should always have a clear understanding about delivery confirmation and insurance before the transaction takes place. Both are responsible for that part. I wouldn't buy something over $200 without a clear understanding that I'd be getting DC and insurance.
That said, it's the seller's responsibility to get the item to the buyer. Part of that is ensuring that he can obtain proof of delivery if there's a problem. If the seller didn't buy insurance, he's still "self-insuring" if he's ethical. Seller owes a full refund.
<< <i>Well..let me face the firing squad! Guess I missed out last night by watching the Mizzou game instead of reading the boards.........the seller of this item were none other then MYSELF!!! Let me start by saying i have 100% feedback on ebay as "shortstopmezz" and have ZER0 negative run-ins on this forum..other then being scammed out of $850 about a month ago on the BST. So, for any of you on this forum that want to hide behind a computer and call me a scammer or a rip off artist..feel free to PM me and i'll be glad to send you my home address and we can talk about it. Ankur sent me a check for $220 for (5) 1 gram gold bars "shipped". His check took about 10 days to arrive....when it did, i cashed the check, and mailed the bars the NEXT day. It was shipped 10/13 at noon from my local post office USPS Priority Mail. Not Insured( again this might be a screw up on my part, but i never have assumed it i purchase something shipped it will be insured unless it has said so). So, Ankur and i have been in contact EVERYDAY the last week...i haven't dodged his emails or just told him to screw off.. i have emailed or PM'd him everyday asking if the bars have showed up...i emailed him a copy of the reciept showing priority mail delivered to his city and zip. So, fast forward to yesterday...he emailed me and said still nothing.....he wanted a refund because he couldn't have this money tied up so long, and he wanted to know my plans. I told him my plan was to file a "lost mail form" monday with the post office...he said no, go ahead and refund my money thru paypal, and if they show up he would keep them and send the money back. I told him i did not believe it was all my fault or his fault and that neither of us should take the full hit.....i offered to send him back $170. He would be out $50 and i was out the gold.....VERY FAIR in my opinion. Fast forward to now......this is where we stand, he got his paypal refund of the money, and i'm out the gold.......as for anyone that thinks this was a quick way to make $50.....give me a break, i have a real job, a real family, and a real life outside these forums.....if i were going to rip someone off for $50, i'd find a way to do it without being out 5g of gold and $5 worth of shipping. >>
i emailed him a copy of the reciept showing priority mail delivered to his city and zip.
Did you send proof that it was sent or proof that it was delivered? If you purchased neither insurance nor DC how do you know that it was delivered?
<< <i>What we have here is a failure to communicate. Buyers beware. The law is clear. The Uniform Commercial Code applies to transactions involving "goods". That Code has been adopted in most if not all states. Under the Uniform Commercial Code the law regarding risk of loss in mail is clear. Here it is:
"(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier
(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation; but
(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination and the goods are there duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are there duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery. "
The issue is whether delivery at a particular location was a term of the contract. If it was "shipped" only, then delivery to a particular location was not required. So in most instances, unless "delivery" is separately stated, then the title to the goods passes when shipped and therefore the risk of loss is on the buyer.
I know Ebay has rules to prevent this. However, when purchasing outside of Ebay, all buyers should be aware of this and request "delivery" be guaranteed or request insurance!
Hats off to the seller here for going far beyond what is required of him legally.
Hope this clears up any confusion. This really was a simple misunderstanding by the parties involved with no real wrongdoing by either. However, the legal result would leave the buyer with no remedy. >>
Thank you. That appears to be the key to this particular transaction.
Under the circumstances, the seller went above and beyond, in reimbursing the buyer in the amount that he did. Yet/and, many posters (who seem to be blind to any contract law, other than rules imposed by Ebay) were unfair to him.
proof it was sent USPS Priority mail to his city and state.....thats the problem here and its why he posted....he's saying it hasn't been delivered. Thanks! CJ
"When someone tells you nothing is impossible, ask them to dribble a football"
<< <i>proof it was sent USPS Priority mail to his city and state.....thats the problem here and its why he posted....he's saying it hasn't been delivered. Thanks! CJ >>
Proof that something was mailed is not proof that same was delivered. If no form of tracking was purchased you have no proof it was received?
<< <i>proof it was sent USPS Priority mail to his city and state.....thats the problem here and its why he posted....he's saying it hasn't been delivered. Thanks! CJ >>
Please use this as a lesson to address the insurance issue with buyers in advance, next time. And remember, these days, far more buyers are familiar with Ebay rules (which, in essence, require that the seller insure the item and get it to the buyer) than they are UCC ones.
<< <i>What we have here is a failure to communicate. Buyers beware. The law is clear. The Uniform Commercial Code applies to transactions involving "goods". That Code has been adopted in most if not all states. Under the Uniform Commercial Code the law regarding risk of loss in mail is clear. Here it is:
"(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier
(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation; but
(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination and the goods are there duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are there duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery. "
The issue is whether delivery at a particular location was a term of the contract. If it was "shipped" only, then delivery to a particular location was not required. So in most instances, unless "delivery" is separately stated, then the title to the goods passes when shipped and therefore the risk of loss is on the buyer.
I know Ebay has rules to prevent this. However, when purchasing outside of Ebay, all buyers should be aware of this and request "delivery" be guaranteed or request insurance!
Hats off to the seller here for going far beyond what is required of him legally.
Hope this clears up any confusion. This really was a simple misunderstanding by the parties involved with no real wrongdoing by either. However, the legal result would leave the buyer with no remedy. >>
Thank you. That appears to be the key to this particular transaction.
Under the circumstances, the seller went above and beyond, in reimbursing the buyer in the amount that he did. Yet/and, many posters (who seem to be blind to any contract law, other than rules imposed by Ebay) were unfair to him. >>
Is a mailing address not considered to be a specific destination? 1234 jones street anytown, xx how could that not be a specific destination? It isn't like he just said ship it to milwaukee, wisconsin
LESSON LEARNED.....i'm not trying to run to the forum and have people take sides, i know it wasn't the smartest idea on my part when i shipped the bars without insurance or dc......but, i also believe i could of just told him to screw off because there is no proof the bars weren't delivered. I know he is a good member here (just like myself) so I don't have any real reason to believe he would try to "scam" me. So, I made, what I thought was a fair offer, and he accepted. I then come to the fourm and have 50 people here calling for my head! Again, lesson learned and I can guarantee you won't ever see another thread here calling me a "fraud" or "scammer"........which is the LAST thing I am! CJ
"When someone tells you nothing is impossible, ask them to dribble a football"
<< <i>LESSON LEARNED.....i'm not trying to run to the forum and have people take sides, i know it wasn't the smartest idea on my part when i shipped the bars without insurance or dc......but, i also believe i could of just told him to screw off because there is no proof the bars weren't delivered. I know he is a good member here (just like myself) so I don't have any real reason to believe he would try to "scam" me. So, I made, what I thought was a fair offer, and he accepted. I then come to the fourm and have 50 people here calling for my head! Again, lesson learned and I can guarantee you won't ever see another thread here calling me a "fraud" or "scammer"........which is the LAST thing I am! CJ >>
It is interesting for discussion for the fact that it brings out many misconceptions that folks have and to reinforce being specific about terms and obligations of deals. While insurance mite be a PITA it covers the seller against loss and also provides a means of proving delivery/receipt. The wise seller provides for it and includes it in his cost. A seller's ability to make a buyer whole in the event of loss, damage or theft ensures that that buyer will likely be a repeat customer.
I certainly hope the bars show up late for the sake of buyer and seller. Then we'd be left with lessons about communication and about not jumping to conclusions!
<< <i>Last time I send a check to a bst seller. It's paypal or nothing! >>
Has the level of quality of doing business with persons on the BST dropped in the last year or two ?
Seems I am hearing several times from coin club friend where buyers agree to buy a coin only to back out of the deal . or just never pay for the coins without any additional communication
Having an address to ship it to does not equate to a delivery guarantee. Every shipping requires an address. The issue is whether the contract or agreement called for "shipping" or called for "delivery". I very seldom see deals made on BST or ebay that call for "delivery". The facts presented in this instance appear to have called for "shipping". In that event, the seller's obligation is finished when he "ships". Title to the goods passes and they are then the responsibility of the buyer. So don't confuse having an address to "ship" to as guaranteeing delivery.
<< <i> As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed.
>>
The right thing...according to the Uniform Commerical Code and 300 years of maritime law...is to offer the BUYER the OPTION of purchasing insurance with the warning that uninsured items are shipped at the buyer's risk.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i> As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed.
>>
The right thing...according to the Uniform Commerical Code and 300 years of maritime law...is to offer the BUYER the OPTION of purchasing insurance with the warning that uninsured items are shipped at the buyer's risk. >>
I'll do it my way and you do it the UCC way and lets see who attracts more buyers. --Jerry
I personally feel that the seller who I believe is a good guy should take full responsibility and refund the full amount, here it is only $50, but a lesson learned I am sure....it is the principle that counts and not the money.
I concur regardless of the legal opinions and commercial codes already offered up. It's basically doing what's right when you did wrong (ie shipped uninsured). Seems to be the unwritten law around here is that seller pays for insurance unless he gets the buyer to pay for it. Most items on the BST clearly delineate either "price delivered" or "buyer pays shipping." It is pretty rare to see nothing stated. Had I been the seller, I'd have forked over the $220.
One last comment that most of you know about, but some may not.
Anybody with a PayPal account can buy discounted postage online with 19 cents for Delivery Confirmation and up to $500 in insurance if desired.
Use PayPal "Merchant Services" and "Multi-Order Shipping". You don't need a Merchant Account and can ship single orders; regardless of how payment was received. Just enter the info and pay. You will need a scale to weigh the packages and of course, a printer to print out the shipping label.
It's fast, cheaper than the P.O., and reliable. The 19 cent tracking info is a must.
<< <i> As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed.
>>
The right thing...according to the Uniform Commerical Code and 300 years of maritime law...is to offer the BUYER the OPTION of purchasing insurance with the warning that uninsured items are shipped at the buyer's risk. >>
I'll do it my way and you do it the UCC way and lets see who attracts more buyers. --Jerry >>
Ebay doesn't allow it. They have policies that changed the long standing rules simply to force sellers to include the shipping and insurance in the cost of the item thus giving ebay a 9% cut of the insurance charges that, when charged separately, were not subject to ebay's seller fees.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i> As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed. >>
The right thing...according to the Uniform Commerical Code and 300 years of maritime law...is to offer the BUYER the OPTION of purchasing insurance with the warning that uninsured items are shipped at the buyer's risk. >>
I'll do it my way and you do it the UCC way and lets see who attracts more buyers. --Jerry >>
Ebay doesn't allow it. They have policies that changed the long standing rules simply to force sellers to include the shipping and insurance in the cost of the item thus giving ebay a 9% cut of the insurance charges that, when charged separately, were not subject to ebay's seller fees. >>
Frank, I agree with you that ebay is trying to do that and I fully share your ire for their intent. I have refused to let them win. I still charge shipping on almost every sale. Customers don't seem to mind. But they are masters of mass psychology and they seem to be winning with many sellers and the 4 to 9 percent cut of the shipping/handling is making them millions.
Off ebay, growing up in rural MO I've seen lots of off-ebay mail order in the last 50 year and I've never seen sears, a seed company, or even a bubble gum wrapper toy company say "Sorry, I shipped it. USPS lost it. Not my problem." --Jerry
Priority Mail shipping? The ONLY way I ship is 'small box' Priority, with DC and insurance (and for the extra few cents, I ALWAYS use the USPS's ). Both stickers fit nicely on the left side of the box. When shipping 'small box', NEVER, absolutely NEVER has a package gone missing, let alone even past the 2-3 days it's expected to take. I have many transactions with fellow forum members where this can be verified, and I use the same practice on ebay. I have no problem charging the $5 Priority on ebay, and I cover DC and insurance out of pocket, and never had a complaint, because it gets there fast, and thats all ebay buyers care about. As soon as the USPS takes that package with their DC, it's logged in, and can be looked up that day. Paypal's DC can be overlooked by the USPS, and that's fact, just like their sig conf.
If shipping Priority in a padded mailer, might as well ship first class.
When an item is described as shipped, thats it, shipped....thats when DC and insurance should ALWAYS be discussed before a payment is made. If buyer declines, c'est la vie, but a seller should never assume something is covered.
When buying, I'll NEVER send a check, and when using Paypal, I'll always offer the 3%, unless gifting, and to gift, I've either dealt with the individual prior, or know the seller's reputation is stellar.
And since when, as has been brought up here numerous times, does one's post count mean anything other than that person has posted alot? Does posting alot mean he/she is more trustworthy than someone who hasn't posted alot? Post counts have nothing to do with trustworthiness. You take a chance on a poster with 5 posts the same way you do with 5,000 posts...and again, the post count thing has been discussed more than once. How many of those could possibly be '+1'? There can be just as many forum members looking for a first class envelope (or Priority) with no tracking #'s at ALL as do on ebay (and it's rampant on ebay). When shipping, the shipper has to cover ALL his/her bases, as, just like in baseball, an error can be costly, however simple the error is.
And not to stir the pot, but the OP has not been in everyone's good graces 100% of the time. Not calling him out on this one, as I haven't been perfect either (I've had to make apologies, as a real man does) but mega-posting doesn't mean jack.
I've purchased many coins from "trustworthy" forum members. Signature confirmation is worth the incidental charge we pay to ship and nobody feels worse for those who get scammed than a victim of such scams . I recommend exchanging 'contact' information when dealing with others. Some elements of our society are unable or unwilling to be above board. They don't feel right if they cannot lie, cheat, steal, wound, or maim, in some fashion.
I know I'm a late comer to this conversation but I'm going to add my 2 cents anyway...
I have sold quite a few items on Ebay. I feel it is my personal responsibility to make sure an item bought has been delivered to the buyer. Maybe that's just me. That said it is up to me to decide how to get it there and to confirm that it did arrive. Delivery confirmation is perfect for that. If I feel it needs insurance that fine but that's MY decision. As soon as I confirm the item arrived at its destination and was delivered I move on.
Another thought.....I did a personal study a while back regarding First Class vs. Priority Mail and found ZERO difference with delivery times. Why pay the money for Priority (under 13 oz.) when you can insure the 1st class package for the same cost as uninsured Priority ??? Tracking is KEY and the bare minimum and if I see the package did not get delivered then the buyer is entitled to a FULL refund or an agreed on substitute replacement item.
I consider it seller integrity and part of doing business.
Comments
I have done deals with many of you with no issues. If I did mess up, I try to be straight about it as I care what board members here think. I've also dome business with many of you in person. Hopefully that has shown that I am not a low life or thief.
And As a seller on the bst, I always include insurance for anything over $50. And delivery conf to protect myself.
I will not out him until he replied and is given a chance to make things right. The only thing that irked me is he felt he made no mistake.
But lesson learned. Thankfully it was a small purchase. And I can no longer assume all bst sellers are honest.
Paypal +/- 3% or nothing unless I know the seller.
AJ
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
<< <i>Thankfully it was a small purchase. And I can no longer assume all bst sellers are honest. >>
Based on the info you provided on the transaction, can't see where you can rightfully call the seller dishonest. Unless of course there is something more that you haven't presented. Unless insurance was included in the agreement, seller lived up to his part of the deal. Failure to include insurance is just as much your fault as his. Assuming insurance was included, by either party, was an error in judgement. Seller was actually quite generous with his refund, consider yourself lucky to have picked him to buy from.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
<< <i>Wow busy night! This was Partially my fault. Seller did produce a recipt of mailing, but assumed that some insurance was automatically included which is incorrect. Item was said to be mailed on 10/13 via priority. As for my rep or whatever board members call it,
I have done deals with many of you with no issues. If I did mess up, I try to be straight about it as I care what board members here think. I've also dome business with many of you in person. Hopefully that has shown that I am not a low life or thief.
And As a seller on the bst, I always include insurance for anything over $50. And delivery conf to protect myself.
I will not out him until he replied and is given a chance to make things right. The only thing that irked me is he felt he made no mistake.
But lesson learned. Thankfully it was a small purchase. And I can no longer assume all bst sellers are honest.
Paypal +/- 3% or nothing unless I know the seller.
AJ >>
If it was mailed on 10/13 it will probably show up. We are talking about 7 business days with 2 weekends. I had a Priority packaged get mixed up with Parcel Post.
Here in MA Priority goes to Nashua, NH and then out to destination city.
Parcel Post goes to Springfield MA
First Class usually goes to Boston or Providence RI
When buyer asked me about package I saw it was scanned in Springfield MA.
I asked PO clerk why Springfield and she told me that is where Parcel Post mail goes.
It was there for over a week before it was sent on.
It may show up and all will be ok.
Joe
Let me start by saying i have 100% feedback on ebay as "shortstopmezz" and have ZER0 negative run-ins on this forum..other then being scammed out of $850 about a month ago on the BST. So, for any of you on this forum that want to hide behind a computer and call me a scammer or a rip off artist..feel free to PM me and i'll be glad to send you my home address and we can talk about it.
Ankur sent me a check for $220 for (5) 1 gram gold bars "shipped". His check took about 10 days to arrive....when it did, i cashed the check, and mailed the bars the NEXT day. It was shipped 10/13 at noon from my local post office USPS Priority Mail. Not Insured( again this might be a screw up on my part, but i never have assumed it i purchase something shipped it will be insured unless it has said so).
So, Ankur and i have been in contact EVERYDAY the last week...i haven't dodged his emails or just told him to screw off.. i have emailed or PM'd him everyday asking if the bars have showed up...i emailed him a copy of the reciept showing priority mail delivered to his city and zip.
So, fast forward to yesterday...he emailed me and said still nothing.....he wanted a refund because he couldn't have this money tied up so long, and he wanted to know my plans. I told him my plan was to file a "lost mail form" monday with the post office...he said no, go ahead and refund my money thru paypal, and if they show up he would keep them and send the money back. I told him i did not believe it was all my fault or his fault and that neither of us should take the full hit.....i offered to send him back $170. He would be out $50 and i was out the gold.....VERY FAIR in my opinion.
Fast forward to now......this is where we stand, he got his paypal refund of the money, and i'm out the gold.......as for anyone that thinks this was a quick way to make $50.....give me a break, i have a real job, a real family, and a real life outside these forums.....if i were going to rip someone off for $50, i'd find a way to do it without being out 5g of gold and $5 worth of shipping.
MANY positive BST Transactions
<< <i>Well..let me face the firing squad! Guess I missed out last night by watching the Mizzou game instead of reading the boards.........the seller of this item were none other then MYSELF!!!
Let me start by saying i have 100% feedback on ebay as "shortstopmezz" and have ZER0 negative run-ins on this forum..other then being scammed out of $850 about a month ago on the BST. So, for any of you on this forum that want to hide behind a computer and call me a scammer or a rip off artist..feel free to PM me and i'll be glad to send you my home address and we can talk about it.
Ankur sent me a check for $220 for (5) 1 gram gold bars "shipped". His check took about 10 days to arrive....when it did, i cashed the check, and mailed the bars the NEXT day. It was shipped 10/13 at noon from my local post office USPS Priority Mail. Not Insured( again this might be a screw up on my part, but i never have assumed it i purchase something shipped it will be insured unless it has said so).
So, Ankur and i have been in contact EVERYDAY the last week...i haven't dodged his emails or just told him to screw off.. i have emailed or PM'd him everyday asking if the bars have showed up...i emailed him a copy of the reciept showing priority mail delivered to his city and zip.
So, fast forward to yesterday...he emailed me and said still nothing.....he wanted a refund because he couldn't have this money tied up so long, and he wanted to know my plans. I told him my plan was to file a "lost mail form" monday with the post office...he said no, go ahead and refund my money thru paypal, and if they show up he would keep them and send the money back. I told him i did not believe it was all my fault or his fault and that neither of us should take the full hit.....i offered to send him back $170. He would be out $50 and i was out the gold.....VERY FAIR in my opinion.
Fast forward to now......this is where we stand, he got his paypal refund of the money, and i'm out the gold.......as for anyone that thinks this was a quick way to make $50.....give me a break, i have a real job, a real family, and a real life outside these forums.....if i were going to rip someone off for $50, i'd find a way to do it without being out 5g of gold and $5 worth of shipping. >>
other side of the story!
Too bad that you are out the 5g gold Plus $170 if the priority mail does not show up. At the very least I always add delivery confirm or sig confirmation because in my apt complex my mail gets put in the wrong box frequently.
Good Luck!
<< <i>
<< <i>Thankfully it was a small purchase. And I can no longer assume all bst sellers are honest. >>
Based on the info you provided on the transaction, can't see where you can rightfully call the seller dishonest. Unless of course there is something more that you haven't presented. Unless insurance was included in the agreement, seller lived up to his part of the deal. Failure to include insurance is just as much your fault as his. Assuming insurance was included, by either party, was an error in judgement. Seller was actually quite generous with his refund, consider yourself lucky to have picked him to buy from. >>
Well said.
<< <i>Well..let me face the firing squad! Guess I missed out last night by watching the Mizzou game instead of reading the boards.........the seller of this item were none other then MYSELF!!!
Let me start by saying i have 100% feedback on ebay as "shortstopmezz" and have ZER0 negative run-ins on this forum..other then being scammed out of $850 about a month ago on the BST. So, for any of you on this forum that want to hide behind a computer and call me a scammer or a rip off artist..feel free to PM me and i'll be glad to send you my home address and we can talk about it.
Ankur sent me a check for $220 for (5) 1 gram gold bars "shipped". His check took about 10 days to arrive....when it did, i cashed the check, and mailed the bars the NEXT day. It was shipped 10/13 at noon from my local post office USPS Priority Mail. Not Insured( again this might be a screw up on my part, but i never have assumed it i purchase something shipped it will be insured unless it has said so).
So, Ankur and i have been in contact EVERYDAY the last week...i haven't dodged his emails or just told him to screw off.. i have emailed or PM'd him everyday asking if the bars have showed up...i emailed him a copy of the reciept showing priority mail delivered to his city and zip.
So, fast forward to yesterday...he emailed me and said still nothing.....he wanted a refund because he couldn't have this money tied up so long, and he wanted to know my plans. I told him my plan was to file a "lost mail form" monday with the post office...he said no, go ahead and refund my money thru paypal, and if they show up he would keep them and send the money back. I told him i did not believe it was all my fault or his fault and that neither of us should take the full hit.....i offered to send him back $170. He would be out $50 and i was out the gold.....VERY FAIR in my opinion.
Fast forward to now......this is where we stand, he got his paypal refund of the money, and i'm out the gold.......as for anyone that thinks this was a quick way to make $50.....give me a break, i have a real job, a real family, and a real life outside these forums.....if i were going to rip someone off for $50, i'd find a way to do it without being out 5g of gold and $5 worth of shipping. >>
Thank you for posting your side of the strory. Without saying outright who is right or wrong, I would not refund a buyer this quickly for a Priority Mail item. USPS does not consider an item lost until 21 days after mailing. I would have sent the OP the mailing receipt and asked him to wait a while longer.
merse
HE>I
<< <i>Insurance is designed to keep things like this from happening. >>
Not quite. Insurance is designed to make the USPS money. Ethics is designed to keep this type of thing from happening. --Jerry
<< <i>Last time I send a check to a bst seller. It's paypal or nothing! >>
I can't believe you will find many BST sellers just sending a piece first class mail.
Clarify your terms, everybody, and stick to them.
If you want something sent insured, ask that it be sent insured and then expect to pay for it.
As Robert Heinlein used to say: TANSTAAFL! There ain't no such thing as a free lunch!
Stepping off the soapbox now.
TD
PS: Mail service really sucks these days. The package might yet show up.
As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed.
In this case, the package has been declared lost by the participants prematurely. the fact that the seller is so quick to assume it is lost makes me suspicious but he has a receipt so that calms my concerns.
--Jerry
Please mail insured to:
This protects you in a dispute even if the seller doesn't buy insurance, as you have proof that the
seller did not fulfill the terms of the sale.
<< <i>If the seller was close, I'd take it to small claims court. If not, there isn't a lot you can do for that amount. In either case they need to be outed so at least others can be warned about doing business with people like this. >>
I am not sure where you live but the last time i filed a small claims case i think it was around 200 dollars with service. Even after you have your day in court it does not mean you are going to collect. It has been the opposite for me, i have won every time only to have to spend another 125 dollars to get the judgement recorded or pay to have enforcement action. On the bright side, everytime i have filed a small claims court case i have had my day in court in about 21 days. From start to finish i can get my evictions done in 26 days or slighty less. The last few have taken a day or 2 longer to verify no one is in the military. I talked the last one into moving for 125 cash. Save me 2 weeks and 100 bucks.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Well..let me face the firing squad! Guess I missed out last night by watching the Mizzou game instead of reading the boards.........the seller of this item were none other then MYSELF!!!
Let me start by saying i have 100% feedback on ebay as "shortstopmezz" and have ZER0 negative run-ins on this forum..other then being scammed out of $850 about a month ago on the BST. So, for any of you on this forum that want to hide behind a computer and call me a scammer or a rip off artist..feel free to PM me and i'll be glad to send you my home address and we can talk about it.
Ankur sent me a check for $220 for (5) 1 gram gold bars "shipped". His check took about 10 days to arrive....when it did, i cashed the check, and mailed the bars the NEXT day. It was shipped 10/13 at noon from my local post office USPS Priority Mail. Not Insured( again this might be a screw up on my part, but i never have assumed it i purchase something shipped it will be insured unless it has said so).
So, Ankur and i have been in contact EVERYDAY the last week...i haven't dodged his emails or just told him to screw off.. i have emailed or PM'd him everyday asking if the bars have showed up...i emailed him a copy of the reciept showing priority mail delivered to his city and zip.
So, fast forward to yesterday...he emailed me and said still nothing.....he wanted a refund because he couldn't have this money tied up so long, and he wanted to know my plans. I told him my plan was to file a "lost mail form" monday with the post office...he said no, go ahead and refund my money thru paypal, and if they show up he would keep them and send the money back. I told him i did not believe it was all my fault or his fault and that neither of us should take the full hit.....i offered to send him back $170. He would be out $50 and i was out the gold.....VERY FAIR in my opinion.
Fast forward to now......this is where we stand, he got his paypal refund of the money, and i'm out the gold.......as for anyone that thinks this was a quick way to make $50.....give me a break, i have a real job, a real family, and a real life outside these forums.....if i were going to rip someone off for $50, i'd find a way to do it without being out 5g of gold and $5 worth of shipping. >>
If you just got scammed 850 bucks a month ago, you are a slow learner. You have now crossed the 1000 dollar mark. Protect yourself and pass that cost to the buyer or just eat it if you have to. In this global deal you do not really know who you are dealing with, i just assume the worst, and go from there. I have been burnt in the past and trust no one. Those that pound their chest claiming they are saints or well respected have caused me the most grief.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>If the seller was close, I'd take it to small claims court. If not, there isn't a lot you can do for that amount. In either case they need to be outed so at least others can be warned about doing business with people like this. >>
Small claims court over a $50 dispute? Dang, your time must be worth close to nothing!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i>If the seller was close, I'd take it to small claims court. If not, there isn't a lot you can do for that amount. In either case they need to be outed so at least others can be warned about doing business with people like this. >>
Small claims court over a $50 dispute? Dang, your time must be worth close to nothing!
And that doesn't even consider the fact that the two parties apparently failed to discuss insurance in advance and incorporate it into their agreement. This was not an Ebay transaction, so different rules apply. I think that the buyer was fortunate to have gotten what he did.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If the seller was close, I'd take it to small claims court. If not, there isn't a lot you can do for that amount. In either case they need to be outed so at least others can be warned about doing business with people like this. >>
Small claims court over a $50 dispute? Dang, your time must be worth close to nothing!
And that doesn't even consider the fact that the two parties apparently failed to discuss insurance in advance and incorporate it into their agreement. This was not an Ebay transaction, so different rules apply. I think that the buyer was fortunate to have gotten what he did. >>
Seller is to be applauded for making sure buyer was fortunate.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
<< <i>As a buyer, i don't tell the seller how to do his business. If he wants to insure it, ok. If he has 3rd party insurance, I don't inquire about that. if he wants to self insure, I support that. I don't feel the need to tell him to insure it.
As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed.
In this case, the package has been declared lost by the participants prematurely. the fact that the seller is so quick to assume it is lost makes me suspicious but he has a receipt so that calms my concerns.
--Jerry >>
Finally somebody got it right.
If you pay a delivered price for anything to be mailed to you you have the right to receive it or get a refund.
<< <i>
<< <i>As a buyer, i don't tell the seller how to do his business. If he wants to insure it, ok. If he has 3rd party insurance, I don't inquire about that. if he wants to self insure, I support that. I don't feel the need to tell him to insure it.
As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed.
In this case, the package has been declared lost by the participants prematurely. the fact that the seller is so quick to assume it is lost makes me suspicious but he has a receipt so that calms my concerns.
--Jerry >>
Finally somebody got it right.
If you pay a delivered price for anything to be mailed to you you have the right to receive it or get a refund. >>
Unfortunately most transactions include a provision for "shipping" and no provision for "delivery." One involves guaranteeing item is delivered to the shipper and the other involves guranteeing the item is delivered to the buyer. Insurance, not the seller, gurantees delivery to the buyer. Who pays for the insurance and whether are not it is used should be determined by the two, not by forum discussion.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
What we have here is a failure to communicate. Buyers beware. The law is clear. The Uniform Commercial Code applies to transactions involving "goods". That Code has been adopted in most if not all states. Under the Uniform Commercial Code the law regarding risk of loss in mail is clear. Here it is:
"(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier
(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation; but
(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination and the goods are there duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are there duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery. "
The issue is whether delivery at a particular location was a term of the contract. If it was "shipped" only, then delivery to a particular location was not required. So in most instances, unless "delivery" is separately stated, then the title to the goods passes when shipped and therefore the risk of loss is on the buyer.
I know Ebay has rules to prevent this. However, when purchasing outside of Ebay, all buyers should be aware of this and request "delivery" be guaranteed or request insurance!
Hats off to the seller here for going far beyond what is required of him legally.
Hope this clears up any confusion. This really was a simple misunderstanding by the parties involved with no real wrongdoing by either. However, the legal result would leave the buyer with no remedy.
That said, it's the seller's responsibility to get the item to the buyer. Part of that is ensuring that he can obtain proof of delivery if there's a problem. If the seller didn't buy insurance, he's still "self-insuring" if he's ethical. Seller owes a full refund.
<< <i>Well..let me face the firing squad! Guess I missed out last night by watching the Mizzou game instead of reading the boards.........the seller of this item were none other then MYSELF!!!
Let me start by saying i have 100% feedback on ebay as "shortstopmezz" and have ZER0 negative run-ins on this forum..other then being scammed out of $850 about a month ago on the BST. So, for any of you on this forum that want to hide behind a computer and call me a scammer or a rip off artist..feel free to PM me and i'll be glad to send you my home address and we can talk about it.
Ankur sent me a check for $220 for (5) 1 gram gold bars "shipped". His check took about 10 days to arrive....when it did, i cashed the check, and mailed the bars the NEXT day. It was shipped 10/13 at noon from my local post office USPS Priority Mail. Not Insured( again this might be a screw up on my part, but i never have assumed it i purchase something shipped it will be insured unless it has said so).
So, Ankur and i have been in contact EVERYDAY the last week...i haven't dodged his emails or just told him to screw off.. i have emailed or PM'd him everyday asking if the bars have showed up...i emailed him a copy of the reciept showing priority mail delivered to his city and zip.
So, fast forward to yesterday...he emailed me and said still nothing.....he wanted a refund because he couldn't have this money tied up so long, and he wanted to know my plans. I told him my plan was to file a "lost mail form" monday with the post office...he said no, go ahead and refund my money thru paypal, and if they show up he would keep them and send the money back. I told him i did not believe it was all my fault or his fault and that neither of us should take the full hit.....i offered to send him back $170. He would be out $50 and i was out the gold.....VERY FAIR in my opinion.
Fast forward to now......this is where we stand, he got his paypal refund of the money, and i'm out the gold.......as for anyone that thinks this was a quick way to make $50.....give me a break, i have a real job, a real family, and a real life outside these forums.....if i were going to rip someone off for $50, i'd find a way to do it without being out 5g of gold and $5 worth of shipping. >>
i emailed him a copy of the reciept showing priority mail delivered to his city and zip.
Did you send proof that it was sent or proof that it was delivered? If you purchased neither insurance nor DC how do you know that it was delivered?
<< <i>What we have here is a failure to communicate. Buyers beware. The law is clear. The Uniform Commercial Code applies to transactions involving "goods". That Code has been adopted in most if not all states. Under the Uniform Commercial Code the law regarding risk of loss in mail is clear. Here it is:
"(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier
(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation; but
(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination and the goods are there duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are there duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery. "
The issue is whether delivery at a particular location was a term of the contract. If it was "shipped" only, then delivery to a particular location was not required. So in most instances, unless "delivery" is separately stated, then the title to the goods passes when shipped and therefore the risk of loss is on the buyer.
I know Ebay has rules to prevent this. However, when purchasing outside of Ebay, all buyers should be aware of this and request "delivery" be guaranteed or request insurance!
Hats off to the seller here for going far beyond what is required of him legally.
Hope this clears up any confusion. This really was a simple misunderstanding by the parties involved with no real wrongdoing by either. However, the legal result would leave the buyer with no remedy. >>
Thank you. That appears to be the key to this particular transaction.
Under the circumstances, the seller went above and beyond, in reimbursing the buyer in the amount that he did. Yet/and, many posters (who seem to be blind to any contract law, other than rules imposed by Ebay) were unfair to him.
Thanks!
CJ
MANY positive BST Transactions
<< <i>proof it was sent USPS Priority mail to his city and state.....thats the problem here and its why he posted....he's saying it hasn't been delivered.
Thanks!
CJ >>
Proof that something was mailed is not proof that same was delivered. If no form of tracking was purchased you have no proof it was received?
<< <i>proof it was sent USPS Priority mail to his city and state.....thats the problem here and its why he posted....he's saying it hasn't been delivered.
Thanks!
CJ >>
Please use this as a lesson to address the insurance issue with buyers in advance, next time. And remember, these days, far more buyers are familiar with Ebay rules (which, in essence, require that the seller insure the item and get it to the buyer) than they are UCC ones.
<< <i>
<< <i>What we have here is a failure to communicate. Buyers beware. The law is clear. The Uniform Commercial Code applies to transactions involving "goods". That Code has been adopted in most if not all states. Under the Uniform Commercial Code the law regarding risk of loss in mail is clear. Here it is:
"(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier
(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation; but
(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination and the goods are there duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are there duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery. "
The issue is whether delivery at a particular location was a term of the contract. If it was "shipped" only, then delivery to a particular location was not required. So in most instances, unless "delivery" is separately stated, then the title to the goods passes when shipped and therefore the risk of loss is on the buyer.
I know Ebay has rules to prevent this. However, when purchasing outside of Ebay, all buyers should be aware of this and request "delivery" be guaranteed or request insurance!
Hats off to the seller here for going far beyond what is required of him legally.
Hope this clears up any confusion. This really was a simple misunderstanding by the parties involved with no real wrongdoing by either. However, the legal result would leave the buyer with no remedy. >>
Thank you. That appears to be the key to this particular transaction.
Under the circumstances, the seller went above and beyond, in reimbursing the buyer in the amount that he did. Yet/and, many posters (who seem to be blind to any contract law, other than rules imposed by Ebay) were unfair to him. >>
Is a mailing address not considered to be a specific destination? 1234 jones street anytown, xx how could that not be a specific destination? It isn't like he just said ship it to milwaukee, wisconsin
Again, lesson learned and I can guarantee you won't ever see another thread here calling me a "fraud" or "scammer"........which is the LAST thing I am!
CJ
MANY positive BST Transactions
<< <i>LESSON LEARNED.....i'm not trying to run to the forum and have people take sides, i know it wasn't the smartest idea on my part when i shipped the bars without insurance or dc......but, i also believe i could of just told him to screw off because there is no proof the bars weren't delivered. I know he is a good member here (just like myself) so I don't have any real reason to believe he would try to "scam" me. So, I made, what I thought was a fair offer, and he accepted. I then come to the fourm and have 50 people here calling for my head!
Again, lesson learned and I can guarantee you won't ever see another thread here calling me a "fraud" or "scammer"........which is the LAST thing I am!
CJ >>
It is interesting for discussion for the fact that it brings out many misconceptions that folks have and to reinforce being specific about terms and obligations of deals. While insurance mite be a PITA it covers the seller against loss and also provides a means of proving delivery/receipt. The wise seller provides for it and includes it in his cost. A seller's ability to make a buyer whole in the event of loss, damage or theft ensures that that buyer will likely be a repeat customer.
<< <i>Last time I send a check to a bst seller. It's paypal or nothing! >>
Has the level of quality of doing business with persons on the BST dropped in the last year or two ?
Seems I am hearing several times from coin club friend where buyers agree to buy a coin only to back out of the deal . or just never pay for the coins without any additional communication
<< <i>
As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed.
>>
The right thing...according to the Uniform Commerical Code and 300 years of maritime law...is to offer the BUYER the OPTION of purchasing insurance with the
warning that uninsured items are shipped at the buyer's risk.
<< <i>
<< <i>
As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed.
>>
The right thing...according to the Uniform Commerical Code and 300 years of maritime law...is to offer the BUYER the OPTION of purchasing insurance with the
warning that uninsured items are shipped at the buyer's risk. >>
I'll do it my way and you do it the UCC way and lets see who attracts more buyers. --Jerry
I concur regardless of the legal opinions and commercial codes already offered up. It's basically doing what's right when you did wrong (ie shipped uninsured). Seems to be the unwritten law around here is that seller pays for insurance unless he gets the buyer to pay for it. Most items on the BST clearly delineate either "price delivered" or "buyer pays shipping." It is pretty rare to see nothing stated. Had I been the seller, I'd have forked over the $220.
roadrunner
Anybody with a PayPal account can buy discounted postage online with 19 cents for Delivery Confirmation and up to $500 in insurance if desired.
Use PayPal "Merchant Services" and "Multi-Order Shipping". You don't need a Merchant Account and can ship single orders; regardless of how payment was received. Just enter the info and pay. You will need a scale to weigh the packages and of course, a printer to print out the shipping label.
It's fast, cheaper than the P.O., and reliable. The 19 cent tracking info is a must.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed.
>>
The right thing...according to the Uniform Commerical Code and 300 years of maritime law...is to offer the BUYER the OPTION of purchasing insurance with the
warning that uninsured items are shipped at the buyer's risk. >>
I'll do it my way and you do it the UCC way and lets see who attracts more buyers. --Jerry >>
Ebay doesn't allow it. They have policies that changed the long standing rules simply to force sellers to include the shipping and insurance in the cost of the item
thus giving ebay a 9% cut of the insurance charges that, when charged separately, were not subject to ebay's seller fees.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> As a seller, I want to retain the right to make my own decisions about insurance. However, I feel it is my job as a seller to deliver. If it doesn't show up, it is my responsibility. That my be an ebay rule but it was the right thing before ebay existed. >>
The right thing...according to the Uniform Commerical Code and 300 years of maritime law...is to offer the BUYER the OPTION of purchasing insurance with the warning that uninsured items are shipped at the buyer's risk. >>
I'll do it my way and you do it the UCC way and lets see who attracts more buyers. --Jerry >>
Ebay doesn't allow it. They have policies that changed the long standing rules simply to force sellers to include the shipping and insurance in the cost of the item thus giving ebay a 9% cut of the insurance charges that, when charged separately, were not subject to ebay's seller fees. >>
Frank,
I agree with you that ebay is trying to do that and I fully share your ire for their intent. I have refused to let them win. I still charge shipping on almost every sale. Customers don't seem to mind. But they are masters of mass psychology and they seem to be winning with many sellers and the 4 to 9 percent cut of the shipping/handling is making them millions.
Off ebay, growing up in rural MO I've seen lots of off-ebay mail order in the last 50 year and I've never seen sears, a seed company, or even a bubble gum wrapper toy company say "Sorry, I shipped it. USPS lost it. Not my problem." --Jerry
If shipping Priority in a padded mailer, might as well ship first class.
When an item is described as shipped, thats it, shipped....thats when DC and insurance should ALWAYS be discussed before a payment is made. If buyer declines, c'est la vie, but a seller should never assume something is covered.
When buying, I'll NEVER send a check, and when using Paypal, I'll always offer the 3%, unless gifting, and to gift, I've either dealt with the individual prior, or know the seller's reputation is stellar.
And since when, as has been brought up here numerous times, does one's post count mean anything other than that person has posted alot? Does posting alot mean he/she is more trustworthy than someone who hasn't posted alot? Post counts have nothing to do with trustworthiness. You take a chance on a poster with 5 posts the same way you do with 5,000 posts...and again, the post count thing has been discussed more than once. How many of those could possibly be '+1'? There can be just as many forum members looking for a first class envelope (or Priority) with no tracking #'s at ALL as do on ebay (and it's rampant on ebay). When shipping, the shipper has to cover ALL his/her bases, as, just like in baseball, an error can be costly, however simple the error is.
And not to stir the pot, but the OP has not been in everyone's good graces 100% of the time. Not calling him out on this one, as I haven't been perfect either (I've had to make apologies, as a real man does) but mega-posting doesn't mean jack.
See "Coin Doctors" as an example.
HE>I
I have sold quite a few items on Ebay. I feel it is my personal responsibility to make sure an item bought has been delivered to the buyer. Maybe that's just me. That said it is up to me to decide how to get it there and to confirm that it did arrive. Delivery confirmation is perfect for that. If I feel it needs insurance that fine but that's MY decision. As soon as I confirm the item arrived at its destination and was delivered I move on.
Another thought.....I did a personal study a while back regarding First Class vs. Priority Mail and found ZERO difference with delivery times. Why pay the money for Priority (under 13 oz.) when you can insure the 1st class package for the same cost as uninsured Priority ??? Tracking is KEY and the bare minimum and if I see the package did not get delivered then the buyer is entitled to a FULL refund or an agreed on substitute replacement item.
I consider it seller integrity and part of doing business.
how was it packaged?
don't you think you could get it in next few days?
gold + mail - insurance = trouble