suppose I bought the coin ........then took it out of the flip , then accidentally dropped it on the carpet , then unfortunately got a couple slide marks sliding it into
a stiff 2 X 2 and sent it off to PCGS where it kind of got squished in a sorting machine via the Post Office .......then the guy that put it in a slab to sonically seal it had french fries for lunch and didn't
have time to wash up because of the tremendous back log , and he was under the gun to " getter' done " .
Then I get the coin back - don't really like the grade/designation , and I try to strong arm the seller to take it back for a refund because it wasn't a DCAM 68 that he described it as ........
how many of you fellers here on these boards are gonna side with me ?
Sending a particular coin in for certification is completely disconnected with the return policy that that particular coin came with when originally purchased by the (now) submitter & has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on one's ability to return it (& doesn't impede one's ability in any way) IF AND ONLY IF one can still return it within the (seller's) timeframe originally specified AND in the seller's original holder. Period.
<< <i>Sending a particular coin in for certification is completely disconnected with the return policy that that particular coin came with when originally purchased by the (now) submitter & has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on one's ability to return it (& doesn't impede one's ability in any way) IF one can still return it within the (seller's) timeframe originally specified AND in the seller's original holder. Period. >>
That only works if the seller's terms permit you to remove the coin from the holder prior to a return. I can see where some sellers might not want to allow this option.
<< <i>Sending a coin in for certification has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on one's ability to return it (& doesn't impede one's ability in any way) IF one can still return it within the (seller's) timeframe originally specified AND in the seller's original holder. Period. >>
Not to argue semantics, but would PCGS really grade a coin in the holder it was sent out in via a seller on ebay or some other venue? Is there an additional charge to holder stapled 2x2s? ))) *giggle* Just messin' with ya.
that would be quite a trick ,to have it certified and then get it back into the sellers holder (which 95% of the time is sealed ), and returned in 3 days .
This scenario places a big dark cloud over the whole return priv. process ;
if a buyer can disregard the return window time frame by claiming the coin was not as described or not the grade the seller thought it was ,
via a C.C charge back with the support of Paypal - then the integrity of the whole process come's into jeopardy as any buyer could ship off any
bought coin to a TPG and if unsatisfied with the results, irregardless of the return details of the sale , ..then return the coin for a refund ?
<< <i>no - this can not be future of buying on eBay >>
Of course it's not the future. It's the here-and-now reality. How many threads get posted here where somebody thinks they see something special in an eBay auction that they think nobody else does? And then decides to make a bid, with the comment "If it's not what I think it is, I'll just file a PayPal claim and get my money back."
<< <i>no - this can not be future of buying on eBay >>
Of course it's not the future. It's the here-and-now reality. How many threads get posted here where somebody thinks they see something special in an eBay auction that they think nobody else does? And then decides to make a bid, with the comment "If it's not what I think it is, I'll just file a PayPal claim and get my money back." >>
IMHO the buyer's "clean hands" claim ended when he believed it was not as described and decided to submit it anyway.
To claim a refund (via PayPal, cc co., or whatever) after THIS point is dishonest IMO.
fwiw:
Definitions of paradigm:
•systematic arrangement of all the inflected forms of a word •prototype: a standard or typical example; "he is the prototype of good breeding"; "he provided America with an image of the good father" •substitution class: the class of all items that can be substituted into the same position (or slot) in a grammatical sentence (are in paradigmatic relation with one another) •the generally accepted perspective of a particular discipline at a given time; "he framed the problem within the psychoanalytic paradigm"
<< <i>I am surprised you sent it to PCGS vice back to the seller.
I think a return will become much harder after this.... if you received it, examined it, chose to have PCGS grade it, then claim it is not as described, I don't know..... The seller can say you had a return privelidge and if the coin was not as described you should have used it. Understand the PCGS grade will help say it is not as described, but your risk has gone up in my opinion. >>
From the item description:
I WILL OFFER A FULL MONEY BACK 4 DAY RETURN ON THIS COIN.
I'm afraid that this will be a $745 (+ grading fees) lesson! >>
I dont think neither paypal nor amex will honor a 4 day return privileged - if it deviates from what he (or she) described it to be... >>
I've been through a few paypal disputes and won them all. I always played by the rules of the auction and the rules of paypal. Paypal will look at the 4 day return window. Unless the seller screws up, I don't fancy your chances good. --Jerry
New Paradigm, I am sorry to hear that the coin does not look like you expected. If it does not look like the coin I posted on page 3, I would have sent it back under the terms of the auction. You are gambling with alot of money (at least to most people) and letting the seller off of the hook by submitting it to PCGS.
I wish you luck at PCGS - and even more luck in future coin deals.
Please let us know how PCGS grades the coin. You will be doing a valuable service to those that visit these boards.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
If you're buying raw cameo Franklin halves eBay from someone who has a huge inventory but doesn't sell ANY slabbed ones, you need to be able to have confidence in your grading so that you can exercise the return policy when needed, because chances are it will be needed. Sending it to a grading service to mitigate the downside of you not knowing what you bought is not going to go over well.
I think the OP is going to get $$$ education on this purchase.
Not a coin but what happened was simililar in a way. I sold a 700 dollar sub woofer on Ebay, a few weeks goes by and the seller claims it has an issue and wants 250 back. I did not respond right away and 4 hours later i get the next email. The buyer said he took the sub woofer to a store and they took it apart and it had a issue that would cost 250 to fix. I called paypal at this point and they said he could file whatever he wanted but since i did not give him permission to take the unit apart they would not find in his favor. In the end i won and he lost.
Had he not taken the item apart i would expect he would have won. He could have blown it up after he recieved it and he would have most likely won his dispute, BUT when he said he took it apart, he was cooked as far as paypal was concerned.
If you cn not decide wether you want to keep something after looking at it for 3 to 7 days, you should not buy off of ebay.
What the OP is trying to do is just plain wrong, most people learn that at a very young age.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>I think the OP is going to get $$$ education on this purchase.
Not a coin but what happened was simililar in a way. I sold a 700 dollar sub woofer on Ebay, a few weeks goes by and the seller claims it has an issue and wants 250 back. I did not respond right away and 4 hours later i get the next email. The buyer said he took the sub woofer to a store and they took it apart and it had a issue that would cost 250 to fix. I called paypal at this point and they said he could file whatever he wanted but since i did not give him permission to take the unit apart they would not find in his favor. In the end i won and he lost.
Had he not taken the item apart i would expect he would have won. He could have blown it up after he recieved it and he would have most likely won his dispute, BUT when he said he took it apart, he was cooked as far as paypal was concerned.
If you cn not decide wether you want to keep something after looking at it for 3 to 7 days, you should not buy off of ebay.
What the OP is trying to do is just plain wrong, most people learn that at a very young age. >>
Your analogy is an inaccurate assessment.
Let me educate you.
A correct analogy would be:
If you sold him a "BOSE" sub woofer, then, when he opens the box, it is a BOSE box but a Pioneer speaker is inserted instead. Suspicious, he, then, goes to a specialty audio store to an accurate assessment of the item he purchased.
NewParadigm: There may still be time for you to "do the right thing"? If you contact PCGS on Monday morning and make arrangements for the immediate return of your coin ungraded, perhaps you might still qualify for the easy ebay return? Good luck with your decision.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Should we do a poll to see how many people know what "paradigm"means? >>
insulting the board will not endear you to the members, you brought the whole thing up to the board, members tried and are still trying to help you, best of luck.
New Paragigm, I think the forum members would all side with you in a return of a coin that is not as described. the routine way to do this is to just package it up and return it. But it seems almost unanimous that they don't think sending it to PCGS is a good idea. Some seem to be turning on you as the bad guy which I don't think they would do if they thought it through more carefully. Wondercoin's advice above is good. As I recognize you as a past customer of mine, I would be glad to help in any way I can. --Jerry
If you sold him a "BOSE" sub woofer, then, when he opens the box, it is a BOSE box but a Pioneer speaker is inserted instead. Suspicious, he, then, goes to a specialty audio store to an accurate assessment of the item he purchased. >>
The auction was for a 1959 proof Franklin half dollar. Are you saying you received something other than a 1959 proof Franklin half dollar?
Just logged on and saw that this thread became active again and that the buyer has received the coin.
Too bad that the coin in hand is not the DCAM 1959 shown in the seller's ebay auction pictures [as the buyer stated, the coin he received may not even be the coin shown in the seller's picture; if so, shame on the seller unless he disclosed that he was using a stock picture and that the coin up for auction is not the coin shown in the stock picture]. I was hoping that the coin in the auction was the "real deal". Alas, the line "there in no Santa Claus in numismatics" is true in the case of this auction.
This thread is very interesting.
The posts to the thread that predate the buyer's post indicating that he received the coin contain a great discussion about various topics, including ebay auctions; coin photos and how misleading they can be; incredulity that the seller would not have the auctioned coin slabbed by a TPG if the coin is really as the seller describes it [PF68 DCAM]; suspicions about the coin and the auction; hopes that the coin actually is as it is described, etc..
The posts to the thread after the buyer's post indicating that he received the coin contains an even better discussion of interesting topics and that discussion may be ongoing for a while.
I do not understand why the buyer, if he is truly unsatisfied with the coin, would not simply send it back immediately to the seller in the seller's packaging to obtain a refund of his bid price within the 4 day return period.
I find it astonishing that a buyer, knowing that the auction includes a 4 day return period, would choose to send the coin to a TPG for slabbing and then [after the expiration of the 4 day return period and after receiving the coin in a slab at a grade unacceptable to him, i.e. less than a 68DCAM] seek to unwind the deal and get his bid price [plus slabbing and mailing fees?] back from the buyer on the basis that the coin was not as represented.
Commercial law [article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code] and general contract law would apply to this auction. I can not see the buyer having any success in legally getting out of the contract by arguing misrepresentation by the seller of the coin. I can not see misrepresentation [aka fraud] coming into play in this auction. "Caveat Emptor" [let the buyer beware] still has validity in the law.
If, on the facts presented [receiving the coin, not returning it within the 4 day return period and submitting it for slabbing with a TPG grade less than what the buyer expected] the buyer successfully gets his money back through action by the credit card company and/or Paypal, that is wrong. If that becomes the norm [the buyer goes forward with a purchase expecting to be able to unwind the deal if he is not happy with it], then we are in a mess.
There is this concept in the law of the "Sanctity Of Contracts", which provides that contracts should be upheld, performed and enforced by all parties thereto. The subject auction is a contract which should be upheld and performed by the buyer and the seller according to the terms of same [sale to the highest bidder with a 4 day return period]. The upholding and enforcement of contracts by the parties thereto is a cornerstone of our free market capitalistic society and it should remain so.
In certain respects this deal reminds me of real estate loan disputes that I deal with on a regular basis. You would not believe how many times I come face to face with people [including some who are dumb as a stump, some who are wise and very sophisticated and some who are somewhere between these two extremes] who willingly, eagerly, anxiously, desparately, voluntarily and freely borrowed money to purchase or refinance real estate under loan terms that are hideous [negative amortization, variable rate, pick your payment, etc.] and destructive. After obtaining these trashy loans [many times putting substantial dollars into their pockets via cash out refinances], they find that they either can not pay the loan back or simply decide that they do not want to pay it back. After default under the loans, the lender seeks to collect and the borrower is shocked, appalled and grabs for their "I am a victim" cloak. Inevitably the borrower sues the lender claiming that the "lender did them wrong" by illegally and wrongfully "forcing" the borrower to borrow the money. As such the evil lender must pay the borrower for the damages that the lender has inflicted upon them and the lender must rewrite the loan to reduce the interest rate and waive a big chunk of the principle owed. When the borrower is shown all of the loan disclosure forms signed by them when they borrowed the money acknowledging that they were told everything about the loan in advance, they ignore same, refuse to acknowledge their own culpability for the situation they are in and insist that they are the victim of wrongdoing by others [of course there are also lenders and loan brokers who wrongfully made horrible loans to people who never should have qualified for same simply to make fees and commissions in making the loans; and these persons should be punished].
All in all, the auction of this 1959 proof half dollar, this thread and the posts contained herein make a very good case study of human nature and ebay coin auctions.
Maybe, just maybe the seller will find out about this thread and contribute his own posts to same.
In any event, let the posts to this thread continue.
<< <i>If that becomes the norm [the buyer goes forward with a purchase expecting to be able to unwind the deal if he is not happy with it, then we are in a mess. >>
Unfortunately, eBay appears to be actively cultivating this mindset among buyers- even though they still allow sellers to list items with "no returns" as a valid term of sale.
For a majority of the eBay drama posted about here, a simple reading of the auction terms along with a reasonable amount of investigation on the part of the bidder before bidding would result in an easy avoidance of many of the problems presented.
If you sold him a "BOSE" sub woofer, then, when he opens the box, it is a BOSE box but a Pioneer speaker is inserted instead. Suspicious, he, then, goes to a specialty audio store to an accurate assessment of the item he purchased.
if he sent you a Kennedy half instead of a Franklin ; I could see your point .....
also , if you believed you were sent a coin that was not the one pictured - why in the world wouldn't you have returned it without delay ?
now it would seem you have sent in a coin for grading that's not even the one that was described
Never mind....this whole thing is a trainwreck that reeks of something......something mighty strange is going on, and as soon as I see that feedback for the transaction, he's on MY blocked bidder list...and I believe that 'New Paradigm' is going to be on ALOT of blocked bidders list. Good thing the auction wasn't private.
<< <i>Never mind....this whole thing is a trainwreck that reeks of something......something mighty strange is going on, and as soon as I see that feedback for the transaction, he's on MY blocked bidder list...and I believe that 'New Paradigm' is going to be on ALOT of blocked bidders list. Good thing the auction wasn't private. >>
I know it really takes "a leap of faith" to figure out who bought it.... Considering it has been mentioned here about 30 times
I just don't understand your not immediately returning the coin. You don't need PCGS to say it is not DCAM to have a reson to return under the return priveledge that was part of the auction terms.
My good nature side wants to say "Good Luck in getting your money back if you pursue that route later", but the logical side says "If he thinks it is not the coin pictured, or as advertised, he should have returned it immediately and the seller should use that arguement to counter any attempted charge back."
So I will say neither and listen with interest to the outcome.
<< <i>I know it really takes "a leap of faith" to figure out who bought it.... Considering it has been mentioned here about 30 times >>
And if eBay didn't obfuscate userIDs in the item bidding history, no one would have to ask, but as it stands your userID is unfortunately hidden from everyone.
<< <i>Never mind....this whole thing is a trainwreck that reeks of something......something mighty strange is going on, and as soon as I see that feedback for the transaction, he's on MY blocked bidder list...and I believe that 'New Paradigm' is going to be on ALOT of blocked bidders list. Good thing the auction wasn't private. >>
I know it really takes "a leap of faith" to figure out who bought it.... Considering it has been mentioned here about 30 times >>
30 times? Show me where you gave it ONCE. Perhaps your forum name, but, as has been said by others, you have yet to give out your ebay ID (and we know you won't, now that you have opened this 50 gal drum of worms)....but as I said, once feedback is left.........BLOCKED! If you don't leave feedback, I'll cancel bids from Valencia, CA bidders, just to make sure (my deepest apologies to those from Valencia, it's nothing personal....I just don't need the aggravation from a bidder like this one). At least if I have something on the BST, I can be certain I won't have to be subjected to this nonsense.
I don't see a problem if NewParadigm actually is the owner of the coin, he must be happy with it to send to PCGS
and I do not see anything in the description claiming grade/designation just the sellers opinion I am thinking you could get those top grades at NTC or something
sellers description->
TIME TO FREE UP SOME MONEY.
1959 PROOF FRANKLIN HALF DOLLAR. ULTRA DEEP CAMEO. COIN HAS A SOLID DEEP MILK WHITE CAMEO CONTRAST THAT IS EVEN ON BOTH SIDES, JET BLACK FIELDS. COIN IS AN ABSOLOUTE MONSTER AND I WILL GAURANTEE IT. I WILL OFFER A FULL MONEY BACK 4 DAY RETURN ON THIS COIN.
I WOULD GRADE THIS COIN A PF68 DEEP CAMEO.
Pristine! 100% Original! I PURCHASED THIS COIN OVER TWENTY YEARS AGO,AND IT IS TIME FOR ME TO FREE UP SOME MONEY. MY RESERVE IS SET AT ALOT LESS,THAN I THINK THE COIN IS WORTH, THANK YOU AND GOOD LUCK.
"INSURANCE IS INCLUDED WITH PRIORITY MAIL SHIPPING CHARGE"
You will be amazed at the condition of this coin. The coin hase been left undisturbed for 51 years. This is a 100% original. Coin has not been tampered with at all. The coin appears to have all exceptional quality, the coin set pictured is the one you will get. SUPER SIZED pictures, provided on this coin for your inspection. ANY ODD LINT OR LIGHT REFLECTIONS ARE FROM THE PICTURING PROCESS, NOT ON THE COIN.
<< <i>The HUBRIS of the forum members....trying to fill their insatiable appetite for drama. >>
What is it called when you originally think a coin grades '62 or 63', not 68DCAM, as described, then run the bid to $750 on it, then get it in hand, then think it's 'PR, let alone CAM', then think it's not the same coin, then ship it to our hosts instead of simply returning it for a refund, and now hope for a DCAM????? You NEED that to come back at least 67 CAM, cause you owned the coin once you put it in the flip to send to PCGS. I'll say this, if it comes back as you originally thought, 62 or 63....nah, you'll be saying it yourself.
As far as drama, you started it when you just HAD to have it, and bid $750 for a coin which you, yourself, said on page 1, and I quote:
"No way PR68
I would say 62-63.
That scrape on the cheek is going to weigh heavily on the grade"
edited to add.....that will be my last contribution to this thread.....you've made it entertaining enough when you thought it wasn't the same coin, yet still submitted it. You've been around long enough to know if the coin was 'all there', it would already be graded by our hosts or ATS.
If you mean "I hope," as "it clearly states dcam," then what you say is sound. If you read the entire thread, which I doubt, it has noting to do with the numerical grade 60,61,62,63 etc... I would be happy with a 62dcam - even a 60.
The naivety is pervasive here, especially to the above member.
Wow...whenever I hear "the coin I received doesn't match the photo" on a big ticket purchase my heart skips a beat. I purchased a 1951 Proof Set off of Ebay many years ago....the half looked solid DCAM based on the pictures. The set arrives and when I removed the box from my mail box I could hear loose coins rattling around inside. Opened the set and unbelivably the proof set was sent loose in a small box. The entire set was completely hosed as you can imagine and the half obviously was never CAM let alone DCAM but in its condition after shipping it wouldn't have mattered if it was. Returned the set (this was pre-Paypal...paid with MO) and the seller accused me of pulling a switch and not returning what he sent. It got pretty nasty after that. I ended up getting a partial refund after several months of complete hell and deciding it wasn't worth pursuing the rest. Worst transaction I ever had on Ebay by a large margin. After that I just don't lay out big bucks on raw anything on Ebay. I hope this transaction works out to the buyers satisfaction but raw coins, especially proofs are a big risk when you don't know the seller.
"Somewhere in a lonely hotel room There's a guy starting to realize That eternal fate has turned his back on him...
It's 2 A.M. the fear has gone He's sitting there waiting the keyboard still warm Maybe his connection is tired of taking chances
Help I'm stepping into the twilight zone Place is a madhouse feels like being cloned My beacon's been moved under moon and star Where am I to go now that I've gone too far Help I'm stepping into the twilight zone... "
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
Just checked the Ebay listings for auctions of Cameo proof Franklin half dollars.
Curious.
The seller of the coin which is the subject of this post has no raw proof Franklin auctions currently pending.
When I started this thread last week the seller had multiple auctions of raw proof Franklins pending. I have also seen the seller's Ebay auction listings for raw proof Franklins in the past.
Anyone want to guess as to what PCGS will do with the submitted coin? I suspect it will not come back a DCAM and will not come back with a PF68 grade.
Comments
a stiff 2 X 2 and sent it off to PCGS where it kind of got squished in a sorting machine via the Post Office .......then the guy that put it in a slab to sonically seal it had french fries for lunch and didn't
have time to wash up because of the tremendous back log , and he was under the gun to " getter' done " .
Then I get the coin back - don't really like the grade/designation , and I try to strong arm the seller to take it back for a refund because it wasn't a DCAM 68 that he described it as ........
how many of you fellers here on these boards are gonna side with me ?
<< <i>Sending a particular coin in for certification is completely disconnected with the return policy that that particular coin came with when originally purchased by the (now) submitter & has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on one's ability to return it (& doesn't impede one's ability in any way) IF one can still return it within the (seller's) timeframe originally specified AND in the seller's original holder. Period. >>
That only works if the seller's terms permit you to remove the coin from the holder prior to a return. I can see where some sellers might not want to allow this option.
<< <i>Sending a coin in for certification has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on one's ability to return it (& doesn't impede one's ability in any way) IF one can still return it within the (seller's) timeframe originally specified AND in the seller's original holder. Period. >>
Not to argue semantics, but would PCGS really grade a coin in the holder it was sent out in via a seller on ebay or some other venue? Is there an additional charge to holder stapled 2x2s?
This scenario places a big dark cloud over the whole return priv. process ;
if a buyer can disregard the return window time frame by claiming the coin was not as described or not the grade the seller thought it was ,
via a C.C charge back with the support of Paypal - then the integrity of the whole process come's into jeopardy as any buyer could ship off any
bought coin to a TPG and if unsatisfied with the results, irregardless of the return details of the sale , ..then return the coin for a refund ?
no - this can not be future of buying on eBay
<< <i>no - this can not be future of buying on eBay >>
Of course it's not the future. It's the here-and-now reality. How many threads get posted here where somebody thinks they see something special in an eBay auction that they think nobody else does? And then decides to make a bid, with the comment "If it's not what I think it is, I'll just file a PayPal claim and get my money back."
<< <i>
<< <i>no - this can not be future of buying on eBay >>
Of course it's not the future. It's the here-and-now reality. How many threads get posted here where somebody thinks they see something special in an eBay auction that they think nobody else does? And then decides to make a bid, with the comment "If it's not what I think it is, I'll just file a PayPal claim and get my money back." >>
It's the "NewParadigm"!
To claim a refund (via PayPal, cc co., or whatever) after THIS point is dishonest IMO.
fwiw:
Definitions of paradigm:
•systematic arrangement of all the inflected forms of a word
•prototype: a standard or typical example; "he is the prototype of good breeding"; "he provided America with an image of the good father"
•substitution class: the class of all items that can be substituted into the same position (or slot) in a grammatical sentence (are in paradigmatic relation with one another)
•the generally accepted perspective of a particular discipline at a given time; "he framed the problem within the psychoanalytic paradigm"
20 cents
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Did you take pics???
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I am surprised you sent it to PCGS vice back to the seller.
I think a return will become much harder after this.... if you received it, examined it, chose to have PCGS grade it, then claim it is not as described, I don't know..... The seller can say you had a return privelidge and if the coin was not as described you should have used it. Understand the PCGS grade will help say it is not as described, but your risk has gone up in my opinion. >>
From the item description:
I WILL OFFER A FULL MONEY BACK 4 DAY RETURN ON THIS COIN.
I'm afraid that this will be a $745 (+ grading fees) lesson!
I dont think neither paypal nor amex will honor a 4 day return privileged - if it deviates from what he (or she) described it to be... >>
I've been through a few paypal disputes and won them all. I always played by the rules of the auction and the rules of paypal. Paypal will look at the 4 day return window. Unless the seller screws up, I don't fancy your chances good. --Jerry
I am sorry to hear that the coin does not look like you expected.
If it does not look like the coin I posted on page 3, I would have sent it back under the terms of the auction.
You are gambling with alot of money (at least to most people) and letting the seller off of the hook by submitting it to PCGS.
I wish you luck at PCGS - and even more luck in future coin deals.
Please let us know how PCGS grades the coin. You will be doing a valuable service to those that visit these boards.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Not a coin but what happened was simililar in a way. I sold a 700 dollar sub woofer on Ebay, a few weeks goes by and the seller claims it has an issue and wants 250 back. I did not respond right away and 4 hours later i get the next email. The buyer said he took the sub woofer to a store and they took it apart and it had a issue that would cost 250 to fix. I called paypal at this point and they said he could file whatever he wanted but since i did not give him permission to take the unit apart they would not find in his favor. In the end i won and he lost.
Had he not taken the item apart i would expect he would have won. He could have blown it up after he recieved it and he would have most likely won his dispute, BUT when he said he took it apart, he was cooked as far as paypal was concerned.
If you cn not decide wether you want to keep something after looking at it for 3 to 7 days, you should not buy off of ebay.
What the OP is trying to do is just plain wrong, most people learn that at a very young age.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>I think the OP is going to get $$$ education on this purchase.
Not a coin but what happened was simililar in a way. I sold a 700 dollar sub woofer on Ebay, a few weeks goes by and the seller claims it has an issue and wants 250 back. I did not respond right away and 4 hours later i get the next email. The buyer said he took the sub woofer to a store and they took it apart and it had a issue that would cost 250 to fix. I called paypal at this point and they said he could file whatever he wanted but since i did not give him permission to take the unit apart they would not find in his favor. In the end i won and he lost.
Had he not taken the item apart i would expect he would have won. He could have blown it up after he recieved it and he would have most likely won his dispute, BUT when he said he took it apart, he was cooked as far as paypal was concerned.
If you cn not decide wether you want to keep something after looking at it for 3 to 7 days, you should not buy off of ebay.
What the OP is trying to do is just plain wrong, most people learn that at a very young age. >>
Your analogy is an inaccurate assessment.
Let me educate you.
A correct analogy would be:
If you sold him a "BOSE" sub woofer, then, when he opens the box, it is a BOSE box but a Pioneer speaker is inserted instead. Suspicious, he, then, goes to a specialty audio store to an accurate assessment of the item he purchased.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Should we do a poll to see how many people know what "paradigm"means? >>
insulting the board will not endear you to the members,
you brought the whole thing up to the board,
members tried and are still trying to help you,
best of luck.
I think the forum members would all side with you in a return of a coin that is not as described. the routine way to do this is to just package it up and return it. But it seems almost unanimous that they don't think sending it to PCGS is a good idea. Some seem to be turning on you as the bad guy which I don't think they would do if they thought it through more carefully. Wondercoin's advice above is good. As I recognize you as a past customer of mine, I would be glad to help in any way I can. --Jerry
<< <i>A correct analogy would be:
If you sold him a "BOSE" sub woofer, then, when he opens the box, it is a BOSE box but a Pioneer speaker is inserted instead. Suspicious, he, then, goes to a specialty audio store to an accurate assessment of the item he purchased. >>
The auction was for a 1959 proof Franklin half dollar. Are you saying you received something other than a 1959 proof Franklin half dollar?
Too bad that the coin in hand is not the DCAM 1959 shown in the seller's ebay auction pictures [as the buyer stated, the coin he received may not even be the coin shown in the seller's picture; if so, shame on the seller unless he disclosed that he was using a stock picture and that the coin up for auction is not the coin shown in the stock picture]. I was hoping that the coin in the auction was the "real deal". Alas, the line "there in no Santa Claus in numismatics" is true in the case of this auction.
This thread is very interesting.
The posts to the thread that predate the buyer's post indicating that he received the coin contain a great discussion about various topics, including ebay auctions; coin photos and how misleading they can be; incredulity that the seller would not have the auctioned coin slabbed by a TPG if the coin is really as the seller describes it [PF68 DCAM]; suspicions about the coin and the auction; hopes that the coin actually is as it is described, etc..
The posts to the thread after the buyer's post indicating that he received the coin contains an even better discussion of interesting topics and that discussion may be ongoing for a while.
I do not understand why the buyer, if he is truly unsatisfied with the coin, would not simply send it back immediately to the seller in the seller's packaging to obtain a refund of his bid price within the 4 day return period.
I find it astonishing that a buyer, knowing that the auction includes a 4 day return period, would choose to send the coin to a TPG for slabbing and then [after the expiration of the 4 day return period and after receiving the coin in a slab at a grade unacceptable to him, i.e. less than a 68DCAM] seek to unwind the deal and get his bid price [plus slabbing and mailing fees?] back from the buyer on the basis that the coin was not as represented.
Commercial law [article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code] and general contract law would apply to this auction. I can not see the buyer having any success in legally getting out of the contract by arguing misrepresentation by the seller of the coin. I can not see misrepresentation [aka fraud] coming into play in this auction. "Caveat Emptor" [let the buyer beware] still has validity in the law.
If, on the facts presented [receiving the coin, not returning it within the 4 day return period and submitting it for slabbing with a TPG grade less than what the buyer expected] the buyer successfully gets his money back through action by the credit card company and/or Paypal, that is wrong. If that becomes the norm [the buyer goes forward with a purchase expecting to be able to unwind the deal if he is not happy with it], then we are in a mess.
There is this concept in the law of the "Sanctity Of Contracts", which provides that contracts should be upheld, performed and enforced by all parties thereto. The subject auction is a contract which should be upheld and performed by the buyer and the seller according to the terms of same [sale to the highest bidder with a 4 day return period]. The upholding and enforcement of contracts by the parties thereto is a cornerstone of our free market capitalistic society and it should remain so.
In certain respects this deal reminds me of real estate loan disputes that I deal with on a regular basis. You would not believe how many times I come face to face with people [including some who are dumb as a stump, some who are wise and very sophisticated and some who are somewhere between these two extremes] who willingly, eagerly, anxiously, desparately, voluntarily and freely borrowed money to purchase or refinance real estate under loan terms that are hideous [negative amortization, variable rate, pick your payment, etc.] and destructive. After obtaining these trashy loans [many times putting substantial dollars into their pockets via cash out refinances], they find that they either can not pay the loan back or simply decide that they do not want to pay it back. After default under the loans, the lender seeks to collect and the borrower is shocked, appalled and grabs for their "I am a victim" cloak. Inevitably the borrower sues the lender claiming that the "lender did them wrong" by illegally and wrongfully "forcing" the borrower to borrow the money. As such the evil lender must pay the borrower for the damages that the lender has inflicted upon them and the lender must rewrite the loan to reduce the interest rate and waive a big chunk of the principle owed. When the borrower is shown all of the loan disclosure forms signed by them when they borrowed the money acknowledging that they were told everything about the loan in advance, they ignore same, refuse to acknowledge their own culpability for the situation they are in and insist that they are the victim of wrongdoing by others [of course there are also lenders and loan brokers who wrongfully made horrible loans to people who never should have qualified for same simply to make fees and commissions in making the loans; and these persons should be punished].
All in all, the auction of this 1959 proof half dollar, this thread and the posts contained herein make a very good case study of human nature and ebay coin auctions.
Maybe, just maybe the seller will find out about this thread and contribute his own posts to same.
In any event, let the posts to this thread continue.
My two cents worth.
<< <i>If that becomes the norm [the buyer goes forward with a purchase expecting to be able to unwind the deal if he is not happy with it, then we are in a mess. >>
Unfortunately, eBay appears to be actively cultivating this mindset among buyers- even though they still allow sellers to list items with "no returns" as a valid term of sale.
For a majority of the eBay drama posted about here, a simple reading of the auction terms along with a reasonable amount of investigation on the part of the bidder before bidding would result in an easy avoidance of many of the problems presented.
if he sent you a Kennedy half instead of a Franklin ; I could see your point .....
also , if you believed you were sent a coin that was not the one pictured - why in the world wouldn't you have returned it without delay ?
now it would seem you have sent in a coin for grading that's not even the one that was described
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I hate to say I told you so...
Russ, NCNE >>
Admittedly, you are right.
See what you started.
<< <i>Never mind....this whole thing is a trainwreck that reeks of something......something mighty strange is going on, and as soon as I see that feedback for the transaction, he's on MY blocked bidder list...and I believe that 'New Paradigm' is going to be on ALOT of blocked bidders list. Good thing the auction wasn't private. >>
I know it really takes "a leap of faith" to figure out who bought it.... Considering it has been mentioned here about 30 times
I just don't understand your not immediately returning the coin. You don't need PCGS to say it is not DCAM to have a reson to return under the return priveledge that was part of the auction terms.
My good nature side wants to say "Good Luck in getting your money back if you pursue that route later", but the logical side says "If he thinks it is not the coin pictured, or as advertised, he should have returned it immediately and the seller should use that arguement to counter any attempted charge back."
So I will say neither and listen with interest to the outcome.
<< <i>Give Blood (Red Bags) & Platelets (Yellow Bags)! >>
Unless you are A+ or B+ which in that case, don't bother. 85% of our blood ends up being destroyed.
You O- people, you are lucky the new Healthcare law doesn't require you folks to cough up. Wait. maybe it does. . . . . .
<< <i>I know it really takes "a leap of faith" to figure out who bought it.... Considering it has been mentioned here about 30 times >>
And if eBay didn't obfuscate userIDs in the item bidding history, no one would have to ask, but as it stands your userID is unfortunately hidden from everyone.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>
<< <i>Never mind....this whole thing is a trainwreck that reeks of something......something mighty strange is going on, and as soon as I see that feedback for the transaction, he's on MY blocked bidder list...and I believe that 'New Paradigm' is going to be on ALOT of blocked bidders list. Good thing the auction wasn't private. >>
I know it really takes "a leap of faith" to figure out who bought it.... Considering it has been mentioned here about 30 times >>
30 times? Show me where you gave it ONCE. Perhaps your forum name, but, as has been said by others, you have yet to give out your ebay ID (and we know you won't, now that you have opened this 50 gal drum of worms)....but as I said, once feedback is left.........BLOCKED! If you don't leave feedback, I'll cancel bids from Valencia, CA bidders, just to make sure (my deepest apologies to those from Valencia, it's nothing personal....I just don't need the aggravation from a bidder like this one). At least if I have something on the BST, I can be certain I won't have to be subjected to this nonsense.
if NewParadigm actually is the owner of the coin, he must be happy with it to send to PCGS
and I do not see anything in the description claiming grade/designation just the sellers opinion
I am thinking you could get those top grades at NTC or something
sellers description->
TIME TO FREE UP SOME MONEY.
1959 PROOF FRANKLIN HALF DOLLAR. ULTRA DEEP CAMEO. COIN HAS A SOLID DEEP MILK WHITE CAMEO CONTRAST THAT IS EVEN ON BOTH SIDES, JET BLACK FIELDS. COIN IS AN ABSOLOUTE MONSTER AND I WILL GAURANTEE IT. I WILL OFFER A FULL MONEY BACK 4 DAY RETURN ON THIS COIN.
I WOULD GRADE THIS COIN A PF68 DEEP CAMEO.
Pristine! 100% Original! I PURCHASED THIS COIN OVER TWENTY YEARS AGO,AND IT IS TIME FOR ME TO FREE UP SOME MONEY. MY RESERVE IS SET AT ALOT LESS,THAN I THINK THE COIN IS WORTH, THANK YOU AND GOOD LUCK.
"INSURANCE IS INCLUDED WITH PRIORITY MAIL SHIPPING CHARGE"
You will be amazed at the condition of this coin. The coin hase been left undisturbed for 51 years. This is a 100% original. Coin has not been tampered with at all. The coin appears to have all exceptional quality, the coin set pictured is the one you will get. SUPER SIZED pictures, provided on this coin for your inspection.
ANY ODD LINT OR LIGHT REFLECTIONS ARE FROM THE PICTURING PROCESS, NOT ON THE COIN.
<< <i>The HUBRIS of the forum members....trying to fill their insatiable appetite for drama. >>
What is it called when you originally think a coin grades '62 or 63', not 68DCAM, as described, then run the bid to $750 on it, then get it in hand, then think it's 'PR, let alone CAM', then think it's not the same coin, then ship it to our hosts instead of simply returning it for a refund, and now hope for a DCAM????? You NEED that to come back at least 67 CAM, cause you owned the coin once you put it in the flip to send to PCGS. I'll say this, if it comes back as you originally thought, 62 or 63....nah, you'll be saying it yourself.
As far as drama, you started it when you just HAD to have it, and bid $750 for a coin which you, yourself, said on page 1, and I quote:
"No way PR68
I would say 62-63.
That scrape on the cheek is going to weigh heavily on the grade"
edited to add.....that will be my last contribution to this thread.....you've made it entertaining enough when you thought it wasn't the same coin, yet still submitted it. You've been around long enough to know if the coin was 'all there', it would already be graded by our hosts or ATS.
The naivety is pervasive here, especially to the above member.
I would guess this thread will play into your paypal dispute. I am sure the seller will have a copy soon if not already.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
So, what's the problem?
"Somewhere in a lonely hotel room
There's a guy starting to realize
That eternal fate has turned his back on him...
It's 2 A.M. the fear has gone
He's sitting there waiting the keyboard still warm
Maybe his connection is tired of taking chances
Help I'm stepping into the twilight zone
Place is a madhouse feels like being cloned
My beacon's been moved under moon and star
Where am I to go now that I've gone too far
Help I'm stepping into the twilight zone... "
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Curious.
The seller of the coin which is the subject of this post has no raw proof Franklin auctions currently pending.
When I started this thread last week the seller had multiple auctions of raw proof Franklins pending. I have also seen the seller's Ebay auction listings for raw proof Franklins in the past.
Anyone want to guess as to what PCGS will do with the submitted coin? I suspect it will not come back a DCAM and will not come back with a PF68 grade.
let's hope PCGS gives it at least a CAM !
<< <i>Buyer has left positive feedback. Interesting. >>
Where's "The Rest of the Story"
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Russ, NCNE
maybe we will never know what PCGS said about it - or even if he really submitted it ...........