<< <i>Cartwheel luster is a product of two things : die wear, like you said, but also planchet expansion.
Proof-finish coins are struck two or more times because the first strike raises the relief and causes planchet expansion (flow), while the second strike wipes out the flow lines (luster) and imparts the polished finish.
I can take a fresh fully-polished die, stamp once with it, and there will be some flow lines visible if any planchet expansion occurs. I can take a freshly sand-blasted (matte) die, stamp once with it, and there will also be some flow lines visible if any planchet expansion occurs.
After use, a die will develop luster on it's surface. That luster will transfer to coins struck by it. But if struck more than once, with the planchet expansion contained after the first strike, the second strike will REDUCE the cartwheel luster, even if the die face has cartwheel luster on it. >>
Thanks for the explanation Daniel. It's good to learn about lustre, how different finishes are created and related to the number of strikes.
<< <i>(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government." >>
The problem with using this argument for this issue is that this definition requires an original numismatic item to be actionable and the 1964-D Peace dollar may not qualify as an original numismatic item using the definition in section (f). If there is no original numismatic item, there cannot be an imitation numismatic item using the definitions put forth.
Where will it end? If this issue is accepted, then anyone with means should be allowed to produce and market any coin likeness that they want, as long as it's overstamped on an original example and the date or mintmark is different.
How can this be good for the hobby? >>
The Chinese have already been making (low-quality) "fantasy" date fake coins for a while now, like 1888-CC Morgan dollars and such. There are a lot of them out there. Most are not marked "copy" or "replica". And they are made out of junk metal - not even stamped over genuine coins. So I guess it won't end - untill the Chinese are made to stop (unlikely).
> How can this be good for the hobby?
Damage has already been done. When the really high-quality Middle-Eastern counterfeits of US gold coins hit the market in the 1960's, many people were really afraid. But the hobby survived as it always has and always will. One thing for sure, though, coin certification companies will continue to have business.
I wonder how this coin affects a "real" 64 Peace Dollar if there are any. I doubt there are. In the case of the '33 Gold Eagle they were sold out in the open for a few years. There was the Farouk paperwork from the export license, etc.
In the years since the 64 Peace Dollar there seems to be nothing. Of course maybe people got their education from the '33 debacle.
But suppose there is a 64 Peace Dollar. Suppose there is a handful of them.
What just happened to their trading value when a very high quality fantasy piece hits the streets in a quantity of 2000? I mean, you can't get the original slabbed or anything to prove authenticity. So something potentially priceless suddenly becomes almost impossible to trade with the scrutiny that would be placed on it from a potential buyer.
And this makes me wonder about some of the stronger dissent here. The actual law being broken here would be somebody holding or selling a real one.
<< <i>are the first 200 sold out ...if we havent got a confirmation of shipment does that mean we wont get one of the matte proof version??? >>
Order numbers up through 5303 were filled with coins from the first batch of 200. Order numbers higher than that will get coins from the second batch. As I mentioned previously, there might be differences in each run. So it is unknown if the first batch of 200 will be the lowest-mintage subtype or not. I do think that the later they are in the minting, the better they will look. At some point, who knows, it might be neccessary to replace one or both dies. For now, perhaps people should just consider them early die state vs middle die state, like any issue ? >>
////
I'm under that order number. Now I need to get type 2. Marketing genius by DC or obsessive compulsive by R95?
I have been trying to explain the same thing to others on another thread whom are adamant that lustre equals colour (were discussing copper coins). On my last statement I said "But Lustre IS NOT colour. If you dip or clean a toned coin back to a red colour it wont have lustre. I agree an Uncirculated BU coin should have lustre and colour but they are both different. "
I also drew this to try and explain it:
but they are sticking to what they perceive to be the meaning of lustre.
I hadn't thought about lustre appearing on a die though and how it would transfer to a coin.
<< <i>I wonder how this coin affects a "real" 64 Peace Dollar if there are any. I doubt there are. In the case of the '33 Gold Eagle they were sold out in the open for a few years. There was the Farouk paperwork from the export license, etc.
In the years since the 64 Peace Dollar there seems to be nothing. Of course maybe people got their education from the '33 debacle.
But suppose there is a 64 Peace Dollar. Suppose there is a handful of them.
What just happened to their trading value when a very high quality fantasy piece hits the streets in a quantity of 2000? I mean, you can't get the original slabbed or anything to prove authenticity. So something potentially priceless suddenly becomes almost impossible to trade with the scrutiny that would be placed on it from a potential buyer.
And this makes me wonder about some of the stronger dissent here. The actual law being broken here would be somebody holding or selling a real one.
John >>
I don't know how the potential market value of a hypothetical (as far as we know) orignal 1964-D Peace dollar would be affected by this fantasy issue. But, as stated before, I did intentionally put a definite marker on mine (multi-punched mint mark). So there would be a way to differentiate one from the other (in the unlikely event the other exists).
<< <i>The dollars you struck today Dan on the Die Pair 2, would be the one's shipping out at this point forward??
Miles >>
Yes, but only 90 of those were made (struck over Die Pair 2). The next run I do will be on "virgin" Peace dollars, so they won't have the rim issues that the run of 90 had. But future runs will have the stronger luster.
Note that a significant quantity of those 90 from run 2 have visible rim issues (due to the high rims of the Die Pair 2 host coins). I'll have to cull a bunch of them out. I may give them a simulated circulated finish and sell at a discount, or maybe just scrap them and mint replacements - not sure yet. >>
<< <i>are the first 200 sold out ...if we havent got a confirmation of shipment does that mean we wont get one of the matte proof version??? >>
Order numbers up through 5303 were filled with coins from the first batch of 200. Order numbers higher than that will get coins from the second batch. As I mentioned previously, there might be differences in each run. So it is unknown if the first batch of 200 will be the lowest-mintage subtype or not. I do think that the later they are in the minting, the better they will look. At some point, who knows, it might be neccessary to replace one or both dies. For now, perhaps people should just consider them early die state vs middle die state, like any issue ? >>
////
I'm under that order number. Now I need to get type 2. Marketing genius by DC or obsessive compulsive by R95? >>
Thanks for your quick and thoughtful responses to the thread Daniel!
I too, Renman, will have the "early strike" and "second strike" versions of Daniel's 1964 Peace and am quite happy about that.....
<< <i>The dollars you struck today Dan on the Die Pair 2, would be the one's shipping out at this point forward??
Miles >>
Yes, but only 90 of those were made (struck over Die Pair 2). The next run I do will be on "virgin" Peace dollars, so they won't have the rim issues that the run of 90 had. But future runs will have the stronger luster.
Note that a significant quantity of those 90 from run 2 have visible rim issues (due to the high rims of the Die Pair 2 host coins). I'll have to cull a bunch of them out. I may give them a simulated circulated finish and sell at a discount, or maybe just scrap them and mint replacements - not sure yet. >>
What die pair? What was die pair 5? >>
From Daniel, page 38:
The first 200 minted from Die Pair 5, and all the ones before that, were all stamped multiple times (usually 4 times). The reason for that is the additional stampings helped bring up the relief while eradicating the host coin's design as much as possible (but never 100%). Before the first strike, the modified host coin fits in the collar with about a quarter of a millimeter of space all the way around. The first strike causes the host coin to expand until it is contained by the collar. This expansion (flow) creates significant "cartwheel" luster on the coin. However, during subsequent strikes, there is no room for radial expansion, and thus, no radial flow. So the subsequent strikes, while having the effect of bringing up the relief, also have the effect of wiping out the luster. So the answer is to stamp once, but very hard.
Today I made 95 more pieces. 90 of those were Peace Dollars that I had already struck with Die Pair 2, which had very high rims. These high rims caused problems. It was much harder to flatten them out, and there was always a trough left just inside the rims which was nearly impossible to strike out. The visible result is a concentric line seen inside the rim in some places. These 90 are the only ones that I'll ever be "recycling" like that - the rest of this issue will be struck on "virgin" Peace Dollars. But, to get to the point, I cranked up the pressue and today I struck them only one time, rather than multiple times at a lower pressure like before. From now on, for the rest of this issue, I'll be stamping only once (at higher pressure).
The first picture below is of one of the first 200 from Die Pair 5. The picture after that, is one that was struck (once) today, on top of a Peace Dollar I had already struck with Die Pair 2. Since the host coin was already significatly work-hardened from so many prior stampings, there are frost-fade patches on Liberty's hair and Eagle's body. This actually looks a lot like original Peace Dollars since they had similar frost fade on the highest points. Both sets of pictures were taken with the same lighting and camera settings.
<< <i>The dollars you struck today Dan on the Die Pair 2, would be the one's shipping out at this point forward??
Miles >>
Yes, but only 90 of those were made (struck over Die Pair 2). The next run I do will be on "virgin" Peace dollars, so they won't have the rim issues that the run of 90 had. But future runs will have the stronger luster.
Note that a significant quantity of those 90 from run 2 have visible rim issues (due to the high rims of the Die Pair 2 host coins). I'll have to cull a bunch of them out. I may give them a simulated circulated finish and sell at a discount, or maybe just scrap them and mint replacements - not sure yet. >>
What die pair? What was die pair 5? >>
The second batch of 90 was struck using Die Pair 5, on top of high-rim coins previously struck by Die Pair 2. I'm not striking any coins with Die Pair 2, since that die pair was destroyed quite a while ago. The only coins being released are those struck (last) by Die Pair 5. If an unexpected failure of Die Pair 5 occurs, a Die Pair 6 might be made.
<< <i>are the first 200 sold out ...if we havent got a confirmation of shipment does that mean we wont get one of the matte proof version??? >>
Order numbers up through 5303 were filled with coins from the first batch of 200. Order numbers higher than that will get coins from the second batch. As I mentioned previously, there might be differences in each run. So it is unknown if the first batch of 200 will be the lowest-mintage subtype or not. I do think that the later they are in the minting, the better they will look. At some point, who knows, it might be neccessary to replace one or both dies. For now, perhaps people should just consider them early die state vs middle die state, like any issue ? >>
I just realized there is one exception. A few orders, higher than # 5303 were filled with coins from the first batch of 200, IF the order ALSO included some other coin(s) in addition to a "1964-D" fantasy Peace Dollar (like a Hard Times Token or something).
I had a request to post more information about the "rim issues" with striking Die Pair 5 over high-rim coins that were previously struck by Die Pair 2.
The effect is thin curved slivers or flaps of silver metal that get folded over and struck-through, then can peel away leaving struck-through indentations. I've defined three severity levels of this effect - Heavy, Medium, and Mild (see pictures below). The "mild" pieces will probably be shipped out as-is. The "medium" and "heavy" pieces will either be destroyed, or will be given a simulated circulated fininsh (possibly with "rejects" from other runs) and then sold at a discount. I haven't sorted them out yet, and it is possible that the "light" version might be less than 30.
I assume the electrical process of shrinking the diameter of coins takes a lot of set-up time to do one coin, and the electrical windings are basically destroyed every time it is done ? If you could shrink a lof of coins efficiently like that, I might use the process. >>
From what I've read and seen on youtube, it is apparently the case. Also, sometimes the copper windings blow up onto the coin and get fused, or whatever. It can get messy.
<< <i>to be a copy doesn't an original have to exist? >>
I don't believe that an original has to exist - have you read the language from the Hobby Protection Act >>
I do believe an original has to exist. Additionally, I don't believe the 1964-D Peace dollar qualifies as an original numismatic item according to my reading of 304.1.(f)
<< <i>(f) Original numismatic item means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person, object, place, or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals. >>
My reading is that the Mint created 1964-D Peace dollar was never used in exchange or used to commemorate a person, object, place, or event. Because of this, even a Mint-issued one may not qualify as an original numismatic item according to the law as written. >>
Huh?
The U.S. Mint never made 1923-D or 1930-D dimes, but the ones out there are universally considered as counterfeits.
The U.S. Mint never made 1944 Jefferson nickels in copper-nickel without mint marks, but the ones out there are universally considered as counterfeits.
Do you consider there to exist some legal difference between Hennings 1944 no mint mark counterfeit nickels, which never existed, and his counterfeit nickels of other dates which did exist? If so, prithee explain this wondrous difference to us mere mortals.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>guess im not lucky - ordered 9/16 mid afternoon - thought you were only around 158 sold then....per the post
by my number is about 30 orders and the second - 50 orders above the 5303 number.....
arrgggghhhh >>
>>
me to im 22 over it ...man this sucks i wanted the first strike ...i figured i was in for sure who wants to sell one of theres ??? >>
I didn't make the cut as well, but you will still recieve a beautiful coin with a mintage of 2000.
wait, is the mintage going to be about 2000? (sorry if this was posted already) >>
The final total mintage for all types combined will be 2,000 or less. I think the later they are in the production run, the better (more authentic) they will look, due to die wear. The last batch at the end, should I try making a polished "DMPL" version? Or not. (Those wouldn't look very "authentic", though).
i guess you could make a few hundred at the end proof or proof-like with alittle elbow-grease on the fields of those dies. that would really be a fantasy coin huh?
<< <i>I can swear on a stack of Constitutions that I have witnessed with my own eyes a peace dollar, bearing a 1964 date, leave the minting room at the Denver mint. There are several living witnesses besides myself. It was not removed clandestinely, nor under the circumstances described by Mr. DeLorey involving purchase at the mint cashier. I have no reason to believe it was ever returned to the mint. >>
I'm surprised nobody here inquired about this statement ?
<< <i>I can swear on a stack of Constitutions that I have witnessed with my own eyes a peace dollar, bearing a 1964 date, leave the minting room at the Denver mint. There are several living witnesses besides myself. It was not removed clandestinely, nor under the circumstances described by Mr. DeLorey involving purchase at the mint cashier. I have no reason to believe it was ever returned to the mint. >>
I'm surprised nobody here inquired about this statement ? >>
I noticed that; however, I wasn't sure what information that added to the discussion. This is because I did not equate "leave the minting room" with "leave the mint." If they left the minting room, but not the mint, then there would be no coins that needed to be"returned to the mint."
This is interesting as is, but it would be more interesting if he could further swear that the coins in question left the mint. Did he ever do that?
<< <i>I can swear on a stack of Constitutions that I have witnessed with my own eyes a peace dollar, bearing a 1964 date, leave the minting room at the Denver mint. There are several living witnesses besides myself. It was not removed clandestinely, nor under the circumstances described by Mr. DeLorey involving purchase at the mint cashier. I have no reason to believe it was ever returned to the mint. >>
I'm surprised nobody here inquired about this statement ? >>
I think it's a moot point. For one thing it is just hearsay. For another an actual 64 Peace Dollar would be illegal to own and would be subject to confiscation. Same as the 33 Double Eagle. However since there is no documentation like the Farouk Export License there would be no hope of getting the 64 Peace Dollar back. Same as the other confiscated Double Eagle owners found out.
That's the legal aspect of it. My reality would be that if one existed and were confiscated, rather than be destroyed it should be housed in the Smithsonian available for all to see.
<< <i>My reality would be that if one existed and were confiscated, rather than be destroyed it should be housed in the Smithsonian available for all to see. >>
I agree; however, if there is an order for their destruction, that order may need to be rescinded.
<< <i>ANACS and Daniel Carr announce a new program to certify all coins, tokens, and medals designed and minted by Daniel Carr and Moonlight Mint. Qualifying items are listed in the Daniel Carr catalog, which is available at: http://www.moonlightmint.com/coin_catalog.htm . submitted items must not be larger than 40.6mm in diameter. all collectors and dealers can submit qualifying items directly to anacs. >>
Do these coins, 64-D Fantasy Strike, fall under this category?
"Well here's another nice mess you have gotten me into" Oliver Hardy 1930
<< <i>I can swear on a stack of Constitutions that I have witnessed with my own eyes a peace dollar, bearing a 1964 date, leave the minting room at the Denver mint. There are several living witnesses besides myself. It was not removed clandestinely, nor under the circumstances described by Mr. DeLorey involving purchase at the mint cashier. I have no reason to believe it was ever returned to the mint. >>
I'm surprised nobody here inquired about this statement ? >>
I did notice that; however, I wasn't sure what information that added. I didn't think it necessary added useful information to the discussion because I did not equate "leave the minting room" with "leave the mint." If they left the minting room, but not the mint, then there would be no coins that needed to be"returned to the mint." >>
I didn't see any previous replies to that, I obviously missed them.
I brought it up because I'm familiar with that (true) story. And yes, the coin not only left the "minting room", but also left the Mint entirely, never to return.
Ok, here is the story.
A couple years ago my local coin club arranged a VIP "floor tour" of the Denver Mint for the membership. This is the tour where you get to see stuff up close, hold dies in your hand, etc. You have to apply ahead of time and go through a background check long before you can get in. In other words, this is not the ordinary public tour. You have to go through strict security screening on the way in and out.
On the day of the tour, I had forgotten that I was carrying a pocket piece "1964-D" overstruck Peace Dollar (Die Pair 2) in a compartment in my wallet. On the way in, visitors are told to leave coins and such behind, and they are screened for large metallic objects (weapons). My coin didn't register on the detectors. Once inside, I remembered. Oops, what should I do now !? I knew that on the way out, the security screening is different and will detect any coins attempting to leave. So my options were: 1) ditch the coin somewhere inside the mint; 2) walk out with it and have some explaining to do ! I chose the latter. Shoes, wallets, etc are all x-rayed on the way out (like at the airport). Anything that looks like a coin is inspected. The security gaurd says "let me see what's in your wallet". I pull out the pocket piece. He looks at it. "Ah, 1964, ok". He gives it back and I leave. Whew !
<< <i>ANACS and Daniel Carr announce a new program to certify all coins, tokens, and medals designed and minted by Daniel Carr and Moonlight Mint. Qualifying items are listed in the Daniel Carr catalog, which is available at: http://www.moonlightmint.com/coin_catalog.htm . submitted items must not be larger than 40.6mm in diameter. all collectors and dealers can submit qualifying items directly to anacs. >>
Do these coins, 64-D Fantasy Strike, fall under this category? >>
DC, if you do a DMPL (might as well go all the way) you may want to make an announcement just so there's a fair chance for the buyers(?)
I must say that some comments have been on the verge of hysteria. It's as if the Mint just announced 2010 W Buffalo "fractionals" in both Proof and MS with a total mintage of 2,000 or less. Maybe it's the "modern" pent up demand.
I see the 1964-D(C) Peace $1 as curious fantasy piece that are well made with historic equipment. Heck, it's a lot more exciting than the medal I bought at the Carson City Mint made on an old CC press fifteen years ago. I thought that was cool, still do. And so is this. This coin is what it is and I have a feeling it will be historic, good, bad or indifferent. Meanwhile, I am having some fun and feeling fortunate enough to have some disposable income during these times to play along.
On a curious note, is this just a CU phenom? Do the collectors across the street know about this overstrike?
So, my order, which was placed on the 15th and email confirmed (I am literally a mere handful of orders higher than the 5303), which I placed when the 'coin' imaged on the website looked like a matte finish, will not be the same coin I ordered???? Don't get me wrong, I like some of your products, but to up and change it like that, then change the image on the website is somewhat disheartening. I'd much rather have the one that looked like the one I ordered. Now, instead of a solid mintage number, there are going to be 'games' with 'subtype' mintages?
Off track of the current subject matter but I need to clarify a photo I posted earlier.
The photo with the title Milk Spot was not really a milk spot. A little prodding with a tooth pick proved it to be something which had been struck into the coins surface.
Daniel, please, no more eating while your working. OK?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I can swear on a stack of Constitutions that I have witnessed with my own eyes a peace dollar, bearing a 1964 date, leave the minting room at the Denver mint. There are several living witnesses besides myself. It was not removed clandestinely, nor under the circumstances described by Mr. DeLorey involving purchase at the mint cashier. I have no reason to believe it was ever returned to the mint. >>
I'm surprised nobody here inquired about this statement ? >>
I did notice that; however, I wasn't sure what information that added. I didn't think it necessary added useful information to the discussion because I did not equate "leave the minting room" with "leave the mint." If they left the minting room, but not the mint, then there would be no coins that needed to be"returned to the mint." >>
I didn't see any previous replies to that, I obviously missed them.
I brought it up because I'm familiar with that (true) story. And yes, the coin not only left the "minting room", but also left the Mint entirely, never to return.
Ok, here is the story.
A couple years ago my local coin club arranged a VIP "floor tour" of the Denver Mint for the membership. This is the tour where you get to see stuff up close, hold dies in your hand, etc. You have to apply ahead of time and go through a background check long before you can get in. In other words, this is not the ordinary public tour. You have to go through strict security screening on the way in and out.
On the day of the tour, I had forgotten that I was carrying a pocket piece "1964-D" overstruck Peace Dollar (Die Pair 2) in a compartment in my wallet. On the way in, visitors are told to leave coins and such behind, and they are screened for large metallic objects (weapons). My coin didn't register on the detectors. Once inside, I remembered. Oops, what should I do now !? I knew that on the way out, the security screening is different and will detect any coins attempting to leave. So my options were: 1) ditch the coin somewhere inside the mint; 2) walk out with it and have some explaining to do ! I chose the latter. Shoes, wallets, etc are all x-rayed on the way out (like at the airport). Anything that looks like a coin is inspected. The security gaurd says "let me see what's in your wallet". I pull out the pocket piece. He looks at it. "Ah, 1964, ok". He gives it back and I leave. Whew ! >>
I didn't respond to that so you didn't miss a response of mine.
<< <i> A couple years ago my local coin club arranged a VIP "floor tour" of the Denver Mint for the membership. This is the tour where you get to see stuff up close, hold dies in your hand, etc. You have to apply ahead of time and go through a background check long before you can get in. In other words, this is not the ordinary public tour. You have to go through strict security screening on the way in and out.
On the day of the tour, I had forgotten that I was carrying a pocket piece "1964-D" overstruck Peace Dollar (Die Pair 2) in a compartment in my wallet. On the way in, visitors are told to leave coins and such behind, and they are screened for large metallic objects (weapons). My coin didn't register on the detectors. Once inside, I remembered. Oops, what should I do now !? I knew that on the way out, the security screening is different and will detect any coins attempting to leave. So my options were: 1) ditch the coin somewhere inside the mint; 2) walk out with it and have some explaining to do ! I chose the latter. Shoes, wallets, etc are all x-rayed on the way out (like at the airport). Anything that looks like a coin is inspected. The security gaurd says "let me see what's in your wallet". I pull out the pocket piece. He looks at it. "Ah, 1964, ok". He gives it back and I leave. Whew ! >>
Now that is a good story! Makes one wonder, if there are any old treasures hidden around the building, there is a way for them to escape, even with scrutiny by the guards ...
Comments
<< <i>Cartwheel luster is a product of two things : die wear, like you said, but also planchet expansion.
Proof-finish coins are struck two or more times because the first strike raises the relief and causes planchet expansion (flow),
while the second strike wipes out the flow lines (luster) and imparts the polished finish.
I can take a fresh fully-polished die, stamp once with it, and there will be some flow lines visible if any planchet expansion occurs.
I can take a freshly sand-blasted (matte) die, stamp once with it, and there will also be some flow lines visible if any planchet expansion occurs.
After use, a die will develop luster on it's surface. That luster will transfer to coins struck by it. But if struck more than once, with the planchet
expansion contained after the first strike, the second strike will REDUCE the cartwheel luster, even if the die face has cartwheel luster on it. >>
Thanks for the explanation Daniel. It's good to learn about lustre, how different finishes are created and related to the number of strikes.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I say that a 1964 peace dollar is not a "Numismatic Item" because none exist. Those who believe they exist, would not agree with me.
The line you quoted would keep DCarr from making 1913 V nickels or 1933 saints. And I think he would agree.
--Jerry >>
Just because someone believes they exist does not make it so as a legal matter in my book. It has to be documented. >>
It is documented. Official government records indicate that none exist! >>
I was saying that those who believe they exist must prove it or show strong evidence at least. >>
This is my feeling as well.
<< <i>(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government." >>
The problem with using this argument for this issue is that this definition requires an original numismatic item to be actionable and the 1964-D Peace dollar may not qualify as an original numismatic item using the definition in section (f). If there is no original numismatic item, there cannot be an imitation numismatic item using the definitions put forth.
<< <i>Maybe the bigger question is this -
Where will it end? If this issue is accepted, then anyone with means should be allowed to produce and market any coin likeness that they want, as long as it's overstamped on an original example and the date or mintmark is different.
How can this be good for the hobby? >>
The Chinese have already been making (low-quality) "fantasy" date fake coins for a while now, like 1888-CC Morgan dollars and such. There are a lot of them out there.
Most are not marked "copy" or "replica". And they are made out of junk metal - not even stamped over genuine coins. So I guess it won't end - untill the Chinese are made to stop (unlikely).
> How can this be good for the hobby?
Damage has already been done. When the really high-quality Middle-Eastern counterfeits of US gold coins hit the market in the 1960's, many people were really afraid. But the hobby survived as it always has and always will. One thing for sure, though, coin certification companies will continue to have business.
In the years since the 64 Peace Dollar there seems to be nothing. Of course maybe people got their education from the '33 debacle.
But suppose there is a 64 Peace Dollar. Suppose there is a handful of them.
What just happened to their trading value when a very high quality fantasy piece hits the streets in a quantity of 2000? I mean, you can't get the original slabbed or anything to prove authenticity. So something potentially priceless suddenly becomes almost impossible to trade with the scrutiny that would be placed on it from a potential buyer.
And this makes me wonder about some of the stronger dissent here. The actual law being broken here would be somebody holding or selling a real one.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
<< <i>
<< <i>are the first 200 sold out ...if we havent got a confirmation of shipment does that mean we wont get one of the matte proof version??? >>
Order numbers up through 5303 were filled with coins from the first batch of 200. Order numbers higher than that will get coins from the second batch.
As I mentioned previously, there might be differences in each run. So it is unknown if the first batch of 200 will be the lowest-mintage subtype or not.
I do think that the later they are in the minting, the better they will look. At some point, who knows, it might be neccessary to replace one or both dies.
For now, perhaps people should just consider them early die state vs middle die state, like any issue ? >>
////
I'm under that order number. Now I need to get type 2. Marketing genius by DC or obsessive compulsive by R95?
<< <i>when will you ship the post 200 out? >>
Monday, most likely.
<< <i>I wonder if Dansco will now create a slot for this Peace Dollar?
I doubt it, but I will place one in my 7070 for the fun of it....and maybe see how it tones.
<< <i>Order numbers up through 5303 were filled with coins from the first batch of 200. >>
"FIRST STRIKE" qualifying
BST successful dealings with:MsMorrisine, goldman86
I have been trying to explain the same thing to others on another thread whom are adamant that lustre equals colour (were discussing copper coins). On my last statement I said "But Lustre IS NOT colour. If you dip or clean a toned coin back to a red colour it wont have lustre. I agree an Uncirculated BU coin should have lustre and colour but they are both different. "
I also drew this to try and explain it:
but they are sticking to what they perceive to be the meaning of lustre.
I hadn't thought about lustre appearing on a die though and how it would transfer to a coin.
<< <i>I wonder how this coin affects a "real" 64 Peace Dollar if there are any.
I wonder if those rumors that the space aliens caught in Area 51 were carrying a few were true. Some how I doubt it.
<< <i>I wonder how this coin affects a "real" 64 Peace Dollar if there are any. I doubt there are. In the case of the '33 Gold Eagle they were sold out in the open for a few years. There was the Farouk paperwork from the export license, etc.
In the years since the 64 Peace Dollar there seems to be nothing. Of course maybe people got their education from the '33 debacle.
But suppose there is a 64 Peace Dollar. Suppose there is a handful of them.
What just happened to their trading value when a very high quality fantasy piece hits the streets in a quantity of 2000? I mean, you can't get the original slabbed or anything to prove authenticity. So something potentially priceless suddenly becomes almost impossible to trade with the scrutiny that would be placed on it from a potential buyer.
And this makes me wonder about some of the stronger dissent here. The actual law being broken here would be somebody holding or selling a real one.
John >>
I don't know how the potential market value of a hypothetical (as far as we know) orignal 1964-D Peace dollar would be affected by this fantasy issue. But, as stated before, I did intentionally put a definite marker on mine (multi-punched mint mark). So there would be a way to differentiate one from the other (in the unlikely event the other exists).
by my number is about 30 orders and the second - 50 orders above the 5303 number.....
arrgggghhhh
<< <i>It would be great if this issue smoked out some real ones that were in hiding. >>
Now those with real ones can openly display them
<< <i>guess im not lucky - ordered 9/16 mid afternoon - thought you were only around 158 sold then....per the post
by my number is about 30 orders and the second - 50 orders above the 5303 number.....
arrgggghhhh >>
<< <i>
<< <i>The dollars you struck today Dan on the Die Pair 2, would be the one's shipping out at this point forward??
Miles >>
Yes, but only 90 of those were made (struck over Die Pair 2). The next run I do will be on "virgin" Peace dollars, so they won't have the rim issues that the run of 90 had. But future runs will have the stronger luster.
Note that a significant quantity of those 90 from run 2 have visible rim issues (due to the high rims of the Die Pair 2 host coins). I'll have to cull a bunch of them out. I may give them a simulated circulated finish and sell at a discount, or maybe just scrap them and mint replacements - not sure yet. >>
What die pair? What was die pair 5?
<< <i>
<< <i>guess im not lucky - ordered 9/16 mid afternoon - thought you were only around 158 sold then....per the post
by my number is about 30 orders and the second - 50 orders above the 5303 number.....
arrgggghhhh >>
me to im 22 over it ...man this sucks i wanted the first strike ...i figured i was in for sure who wants to sell one of theres ???
gdavis70,Musky1011,cohodk,cucamongacoin,robkool,chumley, drei3ree, Rampage,jmski52, commoncents05, dimples, dcarr, Grouchy, holeinone1972, JonMN34, mission16,meltdown,Omega,PQpeace, SeaEagleCoins, WaterSport, whatsup,Wizard1,WinLoseWin,MMR,49thStateofMind,SamByrd,Ahrensdad,BAJJERFAN,timrutnat,TWQG,CarlWohlforth,Ciccio,PreTurb,NumisMe,Patches,NotSure,luvcoins123,piecesofme,perryhall,nibanny,atarian,airplanenut
The Stamp forum....the stamp forum? I once posted a question there, and it was so lonely, there was an echo!!!!
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>are the first 200 sold out ...if we havent got a confirmation of shipment does that mean we wont get one of the matte proof version??? >>
Order numbers up through 5303 were filled with coins from the first batch of 200. Order numbers higher than that will get coins from the second batch.
As I mentioned previously, there might be differences in each run. So it is unknown if the first batch of 200 will be the lowest-mintage subtype or not.
I do think that the later they are in the minting, the better they will look. At some point, who knows, it might be neccessary to replace one or both dies.
For now, perhaps people should just consider them early die state vs middle die state, like any issue ? >>
////
I'm under that order number. Now I need to get type 2. Marketing genius by DC or obsessive compulsive by R95?
Thanks for your quick and thoughtful responses to the thread Daniel!
I too, Renman, will have the "early strike" and "second strike" versions of Daniel's 1964 Peace and am quite happy about that.....
Miles
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The dollars you struck today Dan on the Die Pair 2, would be the one's shipping out at this point forward??
Miles >>
Yes, but only 90 of those were made (struck over Die Pair 2). The next run I do will be on "virgin" Peace dollars, so they won't have the rim issues that the run of 90 had. But future runs will have the stronger luster.
Note that a significant quantity of those 90 from run 2 have visible rim issues (due to the high rims of the Die Pair 2 host coins). I'll have to cull a bunch of them out. I may give them a simulated circulated finish and sell at a discount, or maybe just scrap them and mint replacements - not sure yet. >>
What die pair? What was die pair 5? >>
From Daniel, page 38:
The first 200 minted from Die Pair 5, and all the ones before that, were all stamped multiple times (usually 4 times). The reason for that is the additional stampings helped bring up the relief while eradicating the host coin's design as much as possible (but never 100%). Before the first strike, the modified host coin fits in the collar with about a quarter of a millimeter of space all the way around. The first strike causes the host coin to expand until it is contained by the collar. This expansion (flow) creates significant "cartwheel" luster on the coin. However, during subsequent strikes, there is no room for radial expansion, and thus, no radial flow. So the subsequent strikes, while having the effect of bringing up the relief, also have the effect of wiping out the luster. So the answer is to stamp once, but very hard.
Today I made 95 more pieces. 90 of those were Peace Dollars that I had already struck with Die Pair 2, which had very high rims. These high rims caused problems. It was much harder to flatten them out, and there was always a trough left just inside the rims which was nearly impossible to strike out. The visible result is a concentric line seen inside the rim in some places. These 90 are the only ones that I'll ever be "recycling" like that - the rest of this issue will be struck on "virgin" Peace Dollars. But, to get to the point, I cranked up the pressue and today I struck them only one time, rather than multiple times at a lower pressure like before. From now on, for the rest of this issue, I'll be stamping only once (at higher pressure).
The first picture below is of one of the first 200 from Die Pair 5. The picture after that, is one that was struck (once) today, on top of a Peace Dollar I had already struck with Die Pair 2. Since the host coin was already significatly work-hardened from so many prior stampings, there are frost-fade patches on Liberty's hair and Eagle's body. This actually looks a lot like original Peace Dollars since they had similar frost fade on the highest points. Both sets of pictures were taken with the same lighting and camera settings.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The dollars you struck today Dan on the Die Pair 2, would be the one's shipping out at this point forward??
Miles >>
Yes, but only 90 of those were made (struck over Die Pair 2). The next run I do will be on "virgin" Peace dollars, so they won't have the rim issues that the run of 90 had. But future runs will have the stronger luster.
Note that a significant quantity of those 90 from run 2 have visible rim issues (due to the high rims of the Die Pair 2 host coins). I'll have to cull a bunch of them out. I may give them a simulated circulated finish and sell at a discount, or maybe just scrap them and mint replacements - not sure yet. >>
What die pair? What was die pair 5? >>
The second batch of 90 was struck using Die Pair 5, on top of high-rim coins previously struck by Die Pair 2. I'm not striking any coins with Die Pair 2, since that die pair was destroyed quite a while ago. The only coins being released are those struck (last) by Die Pair 5. If an unexpected failure of Die Pair 5 occurs, a Die Pair 6 might be made.
<< <i>
<< <i>are the first 200 sold out ...if we havent got a confirmation of shipment does that mean we wont get one of the matte proof version??? >>
Order numbers up through 5303 were filled with coins from the first batch of 200. Order numbers higher than that will get coins from the second batch.
As I mentioned previously, there might be differences in each run. So it is unknown if the first batch of 200 will be the lowest-mintage subtype or not.
I do think that the later they are in the minting, the better they will look. At some point, who knows, it might be neccessary to replace one or both dies.
For now, perhaps people should just consider them early die state vs middle die state, like any issue ? >>
I just realized there is one exception. A few orders, higher than # 5303 were filled with coins from the first batch of 200, IF the order ALSO included
some other coin(s) in addition to a "1964-D" fantasy Peace Dollar (like a Hard Times Token or something).
<< <i>
<< <i>Order numbers up through 5303 were filled with coins from the first batch of 200. >>
"FIRST STRIKE" qualifying
Order Number: 5233
Order Date: 9/14/2010 2:11 PM
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
The effect is thin curved slivers or flaps of silver metal that get folded over and struck-through, then can peel away leaving struck-through indentations.
I've defined three severity levels of this effect - Heavy, Medium, and Mild (see pictures below). The "mild" pieces will probably be shipped out as-is.
The "medium" and "heavy" pieces will either be destroyed, or will be given a simulated circulated fininsh (possibly with "rejects" from other runs)
and then sold at a discount. I haven't sorted them out yet, and it is possible that the "light" version might be less than 30.
Heavy:
Medium:
Light:
<< <i>
<< <i>
I assume the electrical process of shrinking the diameter of coins takes a lot of set-up time to do one coin, and the electrical windings are basically destroyed every time it is done ? If you could shrink a lof of coins efficiently like that, I might use the process. >>
From what I've read and seen on youtube, it is apparently the case. Also, sometimes the copper windings blow up onto the coin and get fused, or whatever. It can get messy.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>to be a copy doesn't an original have to exist? >>
I don't believe that an original has to exist - have you read the language from the Hobby Protection Act >>
I do believe an original has to exist. Additionally, I don't believe the 1964-D Peace dollar qualifies as an original numismatic item according to my reading of 304.1.(f)
<< <i>(f) Original numismatic item means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person, object, place, or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals. >>
My reading is that the Mint created 1964-D Peace dollar was never used in exchange or used to commemorate a person, object, place, or event. Because of this, even a Mint-issued one may not qualify as an original numismatic item according to the law as written. >>
Huh?
The U.S. Mint never made 1923-D or 1930-D dimes, but the ones out there are universally considered as counterfeits.
The U.S. Mint never made 1944 Jefferson nickels in copper-nickel without mint marks, but the ones out there are universally considered as counterfeits.
Do you consider there to exist some legal difference between Hennings 1944 no mint mark counterfeit nickels, which never existed, and his counterfeit nickels of other dates which did exist? If so, prithee explain this wondrous difference to us mere mortals.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>guess im not lucky - ordered 9/16 mid afternoon - thought you were only around 158 sold then....per the post
by my number is about 30 orders and the second - 50 orders above the 5303 number.....
arrgggghhhh >>
me to im 22 over it ...man this sucks i wanted the first strike ...i figured i was in for sure who wants to sell one of theres ??? >>
I didn't make the cut as well, but you will still recieve a beautiful coin with a mintage of 2000.
wait, is the mintage going to be about 2000?
(sorry if this was posted already)
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>guess im not lucky - ordered 9/16 mid afternoon - thought you were only around 158 sold then....per the post
by my number is about 30 orders and the second - 50 orders above the 5303 number.....
arrgggghhhh >>
me to im 22 over it ...man this sucks i wanted the first strike ...i figured i was in for sure who wants to sell one of theres ??? >>
I didn't make the cut as well, but you will still recieve a beautiful coin with a mintage of 2000.
wait, is the mintage going to be about 2000?
(sorry if this was posted already) >>
The final total mintage for all types combined will be 2,000 or less. I think the later they are in the production run, the better (more authentic) they will look, due to die wear.
The last batch at the end, should I try making a polished "DMPL" version? Or not. (Those wouldn't look very "authentic", though).
with alittle elbow-grease on the fields of those dies.
that would really be a fantasy coin huh?
<< <i>I can swear on a stack of Constitutions that I have witnessed with my own eyes a peace dollar, bearing a 1964 date, leave the minting room at the Denver mint. There are several living witnesses besides myself. It was not removed clandestinely, nor under the circumstances described by Mr. DeLorey involving purchase at the mint cashier. I have no reason to believe it was ever returned to the mint. >>
I'm surprised nobody here inquired about this statement ?
<< <i>
<< <i>I can swear on a stack of Constitutions that I have witnessed with my own eyes a peace dollar, bearing a 1964 date, leave the minting room at the Denver mint. There are several living witnesses besides myself. It was not removed clandestinely, nor under the circumstances described by Mr. DeLorey involving purchase at the mint cashier. I have no reason to believe it was ever returned to the mint. >>
I'm surprised nobody here inquired about this statement ? >>
I noticed that; however, I wasn't sure what information that added to the discussion. This is because I did not equate "leave the minting room" with "leave the mint." If they left the minting room, but not the mint, then there would be no coins that needed to be"returned to the mint."
This is interesting as is, but it would be more interesting if he could further swear that the coins in question left the mint. Did he ever do that?
<< <i>
<< <i>I can swear on a stack of Constitutions that I have witnessed with my own eyes a peace dollar, bearing a 1964 date, leave the minting room at the Denver mint. There are several living witnesses besides myself. It was not removed clandestinely, nor under the circumstances described by Mr. DeLorey involving purchase at the mint cashier. I have no reason to believe it was ever returned to the mint. >>
I'm surprised nobody here inquired about this statement ? >>
I think it's a moot point. For one thing it is just hearsay. For another an actual 64 Peace Dollar would be illegal to own and would be subject to confiscation. Same as the 33 Double Eagle. However since there is no documentation like the Farouk Export License there would be no hope of getting the 64 Peace Dollar back. Same as the other confiscated Double Eagle owners found out.
That's the legal aspect of it. My reality would be that if one existed and were confiscated, rather than be destroyed it should be housed in the Smithsonian available for all to see.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
<< <i>My reality would be that if one existed and were confiscated, rather than be destroyed it should be housed in the Smithsonian available for all to see. >>
I agree; however, if there is an order for their destruction, that order may need to be rescinded.
<< <i>ANACS and Daniel Carr announce a new program to certify all coins, tokens, and medals designed and minted by Daniel Carr and Moonlight Mint. Qualifying items are listed in the Daniel Carr catalog, which is available at: http://www.moonlightmint.com/coin_catalog.htm . submitted items must not be larger than 40.6mm in diameter. all collectors and dealers can submit qualifying items directly to anacs. >>
Do these coins, 64-D Fantasy Strike, fall under this category?
BST successful dealings with:MsMorrisine, goldman86
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I can swear on a stack of Constitutions that I have witnessed with my own eyes a peace dollar, bearing a 1964 date, leave the minting room at the Denver mint. There are several living witnesses besides myself. It was not removed clandestinely, nor under the circumstances described by Mr. DeLorey involving purchase at the mint cashier. I have no reason to believe it was ever returned to the mint. >>
I'm surprised nobody here inquired about this statement ? >>
I did notice that; however, I wasn't sure what information that added. I didn't think it necessary added useful information to the discussion because I did not equate "leave the minting room" with "leave the mint." If they left the minting room, but not the mint, then there would be no coins that needed to be"returned to the mint." >>
I didn't see any previous replies to that, I obviously missed them.
I brought it up because I'm familiar with that (true) story. And yes, the coin not only left the "minting room", but also left the Mint entirely, never to return.
Ok, here is the story.
A couple years ago my local coin club arranged a VIP "floor tour" of the Denver Mint for the membership. This is the tour where you get to see stuff up close, hold dies in your hand, etc. You have to apply ahead of time and go through a background check long before you can get in. In other words, this is not the ordinary public tour. You have to go through strict security screening on the way in and out.
On the day of the tour, I had forgotten that I was carrying a pocket piece "1964-D" overstruck Peace Dollar (Die Pair 2) in a compartment in my wallet. On the way in, visitors are told to leave coins and such behind, and they are screened for large metallic objects (weapons). My coin didn't register on the detectors. Once inside, I remembered. Oops, what should I do now !? I knew that on the way out, the security screening is different and will detect any coins attempting to leave. So my options were: 1) ditch the coin somewhere inside the mint; 2) walk out with it and have some explaining to do ! I chose the latter. Shoes, wallets, etc are all x-rayed on the way out (like at the airport). Anything that looks like a coin is inspected. The security gaurd says "let me see what's in your wallet". I pull out the pocket piece. He looks at it. "Ah, 1964, ok". He gives it back and I leave. Whew !
<< <i>Taken from DCarr's website:
<< <i>ANACS and Daniel Carr announce a new program to certify all coins, tokens, and medals designed and minted by Daniel Carr and Moonlight Mint. Qualifying items are listed in the Daniel Carr catalog, which is available at: http://www.moonlightmint.com/coin_catalog.htm . submitted items must not be larger than 40.6mm in diameter. all collectors and dealers can submit qualifying items directly to anacs. >>
Do these coins, 64-D Fantasy Strike, fall under this category? >>
Maybe. Decision soon.
I must say that some comments have been on the verge of hysteria. It's as if the Mint just announced 2010 W Buffalo "fractionals" in both Proof and MS with a total mintage of 2,000 or less. Maybe it's the "modern" pent up demand.
I see the 1964-D(C) Peace $1 as curious fantasy piece that are well made with historic equipment. Heck, it's a lot more exciting than the medal I bought at the Carson City Mint made on an old CC press fifteen years ago. I thought that was cool, still do. And so is this. This coin is what it is and I have a feeling it will be historic, good, bad or indifferent. Meanwhile, I am having some fun and feeling fortunate enough to have some disposable income during these times to play along.
On a curious note, is this just a CU phenom? Do the collectors across the street know about this overstrike?
r95
<< <i>Mine, 1st strike with order #5317, because I ordered other items.
My order # is lower than this, yet I get 'seconds'.
The photo with the title Milk Spot was not really a milk spot. A little prodding with a tooth pick proved it to be something which had been struck into the coins surface.
Daniel, please, no more eating while your working. OK?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I can swear on a stack of Constitutions that I have witnessed with my own eyes a peace dollar, bearing a 1964 date, leave the minting room at the Denver mint. There are several living witnesses besides myself. It was not removed clandestinely, nor under the circumstances described by Mr. DeLorey involving purchase at the mint cashier. I have no reason to believe it was ever returned to the mint. >>
I'm surprised nobody here inquired about this statement ? >>
I did notice that; however, I wasn't sure what information that added. I didn't think it necessary added useful information to the discussion because I did not equate "leave the minting room" with "leave the mint." If they left the minting room, but not the mint, then there would be no coins that needed to be"returned to the mint." >>
I didn't see any previous replies to that, I obviously missed them.
I brought it up because I'm familiar with that (true) story. And yes, the coin not only left the "minting room", but also left the Mint entirely, never to return.
Ok, here is the story.
A couple years ago my local coin club arranged a VIP "floor tour" of the Denver Mint for the membership. This is the tour where you get to see stuff up close, hold dies in your hand, etc. You have to apply ahead of time and go through a background check long before you can get in. In other words, this is not the ordinary public tour. You have to go through strict security screening on the way in and out.
On the day of the tour, I had forgotten that I was carrying a pocket piece "1964-D" overstruck Peace Dollar (Die Pair 2) in a compartment in my wallet. On the way in, visitors are told to leave coins and such behind, and they are screened for large metallic objects (weapons). My coin didn't register on the detectors. Once inside, I remembered. Oops, what should I do now !? I knew that on the way out, the security screening is different and will detect any coins attempting to leave. So my options were: 1) ditch the coin somewhere inside the mint; 2) walk out with it and have some explaining to do ! I chose the latter. Shoes, wallets, etc are all x-rayed on the way out (like at the airport). Anything that looks like a coin is inspected. The security gaurd says "let me see what's in your wallet". I pull out the pocket piece. He looks at it. "Ah, 1964, ok". He gives it back and I leave. Whew ! >>
I didn't respond to that so you didn't miss a response of mine.
But...
that story is hilarious.
Thanks for sharing that true story!
<< <i>
A couple years ago my local coin club arranged a VIP "floor tour" of the Denver Mint for the membership. This is the tour where you get to see stuff up close, hold dies in your hand, etc. You have to apply ahead of time and go through a background check long before you can get in. In other words, this is not the ordinary public tour. You have to go through strict security screening on the way in and out.
On the day of the tour, I had forgotten that I was carrying a pocket piece "1964-D" overstruck Peace Dollar (Die Pair 2) in a compartment in my wallet. On the way in, visitors are told to leave coins and such behind, and they are screened for large metallic objects (weapons). My coin didn't register on the detectors. Once inside, I remembered. Oops, what should I do now !? I knew that on the way out, the security screening is different and will detect any coins attempting to leave. So my options were: 1) ditch the coin somewhere inside the mint; 2) walk out with it and have some explaining to do ! I chose the latter. Shoes, wallets, etc are all x-rayed on the way out (like at the airport). Anything that looks like a coin is inspected. The security gaurd says "let me see what's in your wallet". I pull out the pocket piece. He looks at it. "Ah, 1964, ok". He gives it back and I leave. Whew ! >>
Now that is a good story! Makes one wonder, if there are any old treasures hidden around the building, there is a way for them to escape, even with scrutiny by the guards ...
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards