<< <i>Yes, and we COULD be invaded by Canada any day now. Hey, It could happen. >>
It is a known fact that Canada has amassed 90% of its population within 100 miles of the U.S. border. Be afraid of the peril from the great white north!
Me at the Springfield coin show: 60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i><<I thought that Goldfinger took the gold.>>
He was going to nuke it and make it radioactive and useless. >>
This Goldfinger you speak of. Was he a former Fed Chairman? MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Why shouldn't I be allowed to know how much gold is actually in Ft. Knox? After all it belongs to you and me. Just because the government says it's there doesn't mean it is. America has slowly been sold and undermined for the last few decades. Remember this is the same government that tested atomic weapons in the atmosphere in the 50's to see what effect it would have on the population and how it would spread. I for one don't really trust them.
I realize it is better than what most of the rest of the world wakes up to every morning but keep them on their toes.
Ron
Collect for the love of the hobby, the beauty of the coins, and enjoy the ride.
I tell you what....the govt should set up tours of the vaults at fort knox...maybe $20.00 a head.I only want 50 cents a head for coming up with the idea.
<< <i> I trust gold. Most other things not so much................
Hmmm....so, perhaps you want to change the motto on our coins to:
In Gold We Trust >>
Nope. That would perhaps be you again.
edited to add- FYI- that was pretty clever on your part. touche'
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The gold is either there or it is not. Unless one is trying to deflect discussion on the topic, the identity of the person (or persons) asking for an accounting has no bearing on that question.
<< I trust gold. Most other things not so much................ Hmmm....so, perhaps you want to change the motto on our coins to: In Gold We Trust >> Nope. That would perhaps be you again. MJ
No, I don't have share your loyalty to the value of gold. I actually liked what free-market economist Milton Friedman said about gold. He said that it doesn't make sense for society to spend resources to take gold from the ground through mining, and then put that same gold back into the ground in bank vaults.
And, I do believe that this issue about Fort Knox is really about politics and the election cycle. It's a silly issue.
With all due respect to Milton Friedman, society doesn't spend resources taking gold from the ground (if that's what he did say)- people do. And it's not everybody- as with many things on which resources are spent, it's only those who choose to. Whose place is it to say what makes sense anyway, aside from the people spending the resources?
I don't know if gold will always be considered valuable by society (or some members of society)... even though it has been considered such through most, if not all, of recorded history...
I don't know why people insist on believing information being provided through the media or from politicians (with their own agenda) or so-called experts... or believe so-called "independant" agencies staffed by people they have never met who might just be blowing smoke to feed their own personal agenda...
I don't know why folks are so flat out naive...
I am not picking sides in this horse race... just amazed at how self assured folks can be when they have no direct way of confirming what they vehemently believe in
I don't really even know why coins are considered valuable... other than a bunch of folks agreeing that they are... and that's the real bottom line IMHO... value is not pre-determined... it is an agreement based on trust... and as fragile or strong as the trust that binds any relationship or relationships...
And last but not least... I don't know why this thread is on the US Coin Forum rather than the PM Forum...
one more thing... I don't know why I wrote all this... I guess I just felt like it...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>Yes, and we COULD be invaded by Canada any day now. Hey, It could happen. >>
It is a known fact that Canada has amassed 90% of its population within 100 miles of the U.S. border. Be afraid of the peril from the great white north! >>
Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that the Canadian Mint/Government came up short a significant number of ounces of gold after an audit? Was that ever reconciled?
<< <i>The gold is either there or it is not. Unless one is trying to deflect discussion on the topic, the identity of the person (or persons) asking for an accounting has no bearing on that question. >>
Where would one go to get a truthful accounting of the social security fund?
Wow, so many here have issues with reading comprehension. Ron Paul is not talking about auditing Fort Knox, he is talking about and has been talking about for many years auditing the FED. It is one of his very passionate ideologies. Congress does not want this although I believe most Americans would support an audit. The Fort Knox comment was an off-hand comment that was taken out of context. The reality is, as someone else pointed out, "who cares if there is any gold in Fort Knox". We have not been on the gold standard for quite some time and if all the gold in Fort Knox were sold, it wouldn't even dent the national debt.
BAJJERFAN, I could tell you where our government would tell you to go, but might get bammed, so I'll pass. As to the original post, why would anyone believe anything a foreign company who has no restraints nor checks and balances as to their actions, such as the "federal reserve"?Just exactly what gives them any truth bearing credentials? We have no TRUE information that gold is at Fort Knox or not, only suppositions by those who cannot be substantiated, either in a positive or negative way. It no longer matters, once our government is crooked from the top down to the dog catcher their is no cure. Elections are merely bought and sold like so much gold. If no checks and balances exist for any agency that handles funds in any form, it will become crooked--nature of the beast. No reason to complain as we allowed it to happen. JMO Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) said he plans to introduce legislation next year to force an audit of U.S. holdings of gold.
if he paints himself as a Patriot, why would he want a law passed which could possibly place the Country in jeapordy and financial chaos?? can anybody say Grand-standing??
When Milton Friedman used the term "resources" he meant labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship. These inputs into production are what economists--such as Friedman--call "resources." And Friedman's point is that is somewhat odd that we as a society use labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship to dig up the gold and then we turn around and use labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship to bury the (refined) gold.
But you could have the most thorough, in-depth, digitally weighed, core-boring aqua regia spectrum analysis performed by the most scrupulous third party and the conspiracy theorists would still claim the scales were rigged, the results were faked, etc.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
<< <i>Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that the Canadian Mint/Government came up short a significant number of ounces of gold after an audit? Was that ever reconciled? >>
Yes, it was an accounting error. How boring. Lance.
But you could have the most thorough, in-depth, digitally weighed, core-boring aqua regia spectrum analysis performed by the most scrupulous third party and the conspiracy theorists would still claim the scales were rigged, the results were faked, etc. >>
Remember that episode of "M*A*S*H" where a Korean family set up camp in the compound, and Major Burns asked to see their papers, and the head of the family whips out a bunch of papers, and then Burns asks "Do you have any papers that prove that these are your papers?"
You are correct. The crazy conspiracy theorists, and our society is full of them, would never believe any audit, because it gives them so much pleasure to shout "CONSPIRACY!"
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
When Milton Friedman used the term "resources" he meant labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship. These inputs into production are what economists--such as Friedman--call "resources." And Friedman's point is that is somewhat odd that we as a society use labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship to dig up the gold and then we turn around and use labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship to bury the (refined) gold. >>
But we don't "as a society" do any of those things. We do them as individuals. I'm sure everybody can think of things to expend resources on that are "somewhat odd", which other people consider perfectly reasonable. If you ask most of "society", I think you'd find employing "labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship" in the persuit of collectible coins would be considered odd. But so what? As with digging for gold, if you don't think it's a reasonable persuit, you don't have to do it, do you?
<< <i>I actually liked what free-market economist Milton Friedman said about gold. He said that it doesn't make sense for society to spend resources to take gold from the ground through mining, and then put that same gold back into the ground in bank vaults. >>
Also about society--- Friedman was is favor of legalizing drugs.
He also said the following about currency- "Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless."
If gold baffles him and currency creeps him out what would he suggest we use to settle trade? Words perhaps....................MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
But you could have the most thorough, in-depth, digitally weighed, core-boring aqua regia spectrum analysis performed by the most scrupulous third party and the conspiracy theorists would still claim the scales were rigged, the results were faked, etc. >>
Remember that episode of "M*A*S*H" where a Korean family set up camp in the compound, and Major Burns asked to see their papers, and the head of the family whips out a bunch of papers, and then Burns asks "Do you have any papers that prove that these are your papers?"
You are correct. The crazy conspiracy theorists, and our society is full of them, would never believe any audit, because it gives them so much pleasure to shout "CONSPIRACY!"
TD >>
Just because you cannot satisfy a few kooks doesn't mean that reasonable efforts to show accounting should not be done. If it is a securtiy issue then maybe a few "trusted" Senators could be used to verify that no hanky panky has occured like we do with military issues. Now where do we find those "trusted" Senators? That's a tough one.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
I think right after they take Rocky Obama out to area 51 and show him the frozen alien bodies they should take him to Ft, Knox and let him play with the bullion for awhile.
<< <i>I think right after they take Rocky Obama out to area 51 and show him the frozen alien bodies they should take him to Ft, Knox and let him play with the bullion for awhile. >>
"Rocky"? First, we will need to examine his birth certificate.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>I think right after they take Rocky Obama out to area 51 and show him the frozen alien bodies they should take him to Ft, Knox and let him play with the bullion for awhile. >>
"Rocky"? First, we will need to examine his birth certificate. >>
I was wondering when the first "birther" comment would show up, facetious or not. I do believe that the whole "birth certificate" issue is closely linked to the "missing gold" issue. How many times have we heard "If he (or they) are innocent, why don't they PROVE it?"
Doesn't work that way in the United States, fortunately.
Where in that so called "debunk" piece is there any proof of anything? No proof - just him saying I "knew" it was not real from the beginning (because he felt it was so) and then goes on to just say it's not real with no real evidence. No tracing to where the original source of the bars came from... NOTHING but the usual name calling and know it all attitude.
AND a SIMPLE question... if it was just some regular guy that made these, why have they NOT been pursued and PROSECUTED? This is a serious offense. The reason they were NOT traced down and brought to justice because it would be a very SIMPLE thing to do for the people involved... is because they are the FEDS! Isn't this obvious???
Really.... this is what passes as proof these days? At the least, anyone with any reason would say it's a possibility and demand some proof. $28 TRILLION was stolen from us with the banker bailout and NONE of that money went to help people with their mortgages..
The pentagon steals 3 TRILLION dollars and on Sept 10 2001... this was reported
<< <i>I think right after they take Rocky Obama out to area 51 and show him the frozen alien bodies they should take him to Ft, Knox and let him play with the bullion for awhile. >>
"Rocky"? First, we will need to examine his birth certificate. >>
I was wondering when the first "birther" comment would show up, facetious or not. I do believe that the whole "birth certificate" issue is closely linked to the "missing gold" issue. How many times have we heard "If he (or they) are innocent, why don't they PROVE it?"
Doesn't work that way in the United States, fortunately. >>
I figured that someone was waiting for that. Funny, about proving things-I was on a cruise to Mexico recently and darned if they demanded that I PROVE that I was a US citizen before they let me back in so it seemed to work that way to me.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
I am not picking sides in this horse race... just amazed at how self assured folks can be when they have no direct way of confirming what they vehemently believe in
You don't have to personally confirm everything. You can accept information from experts. For example, I believe that air exists, even though I can't see air. I believe that the world is round, even though I've never confirmed it. I believe that San Francisco is about 2,500 miles from New York, even though I've never measured it. For all of these issues, I rely on experts to provide me with information. I don't need to confirm this information.
It is also possible to doubt information, based upon the source. The stories about Elvis are an example. It isn't necessary to exhume Elvis' body to see if he is really dead, because there is no credible information to the contrary. There are only stories and suspicion. Similarly, it isn't necessary for the American people to spend money to see whether there is any gold at Fort Knox, because there isn't any credible source with information to the contrary. There are only suspicion and stories.
I am not picking sides in this horse race... just amazed at how self assured folks can be when they have no direct way of confirming what they vehemently believe in
You don't have to personally confirm everything. You can accept information from experts. For example, I believe that air exists, even though I can't see air. I believe that the world is round, even though I've never confirmed it. I believe that San Francisco is about 2,500 miles from New York, even though I've never measured it. For all of these issues, I rely on experts to provide me with information. I don't need to confirm this information.
It is also possible to doubt information, based upon the source. The stories about Elvis are an example. It isn't necessary to exhume Elvis' body to see if he is really dead, because there is no credible information to the contrary. There are only stories and suspicion. Similarly, it isn't necessary for the American people to spend money to see whether there is any gold at Fort Knox, because there isn't any credible source with information to the contrary. There are only suspicion and stories. >>
Well said!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<Similarly, it isn't necessary for the American people to spend money to see whether there is any gold at Fort Knox, because there isn't any credible source with information to the contrary. There are only suspicion and stories. >
So what is the credible source that says all the gold in Ft Knox is there? I'll wait....................... Hardly anyone would have believed that there would be a worldwide financial crisis in 2008 that almost brought the world to it's knees, yet it happened. Curiously just about the only ones that DID warn us of the impending banking and housing crisis are the very same ones that wouldn't mind peeking in the Ft Knox vault. I'm shocked that most here are this trusting of any of our government institutions. They have not earned our trust.
Why shouldn't Ft Knox be subject to independent audit?
And as far as it isn't necessary for the American people to send the money for an audit? Are you kidding me?
We spend more money on security details for the First Lady to shop then we would on an audit on one of our assumed greatest assets.
MJ
Edited to add- My Dear Cpt, you have spent WAY too much time in Chicago
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I am not picking sides in this horse race... just amazed at how self assured folks can be when they have no direct way of confirming what they vehemently believe in
You don't have to personally confirm everything. You can accept information from experts. For example, I believe that air exists, even though I can't see air. I believe that the world is round, even though I've never confirmed it. I believe that San Francisco is about 2,500 miles from New York, even though I've never measured it. For all of these issues, I rely on experts to provide me with information. I don't need to confirm this information.
It is also possible to doubt information, based upon the source. The stories about Elvis are an example. It isn't necessary to exhume Elvis' body to see if he is really dead, because there is no credible information to the contrary. There are only stories and suspicion. Similarly, it isn't necessary for the American people to spend money to see whether there is any gold at Fort Knox, because there isn't any credible source with information to the contrary. There are only suspicion and stories. >>
Well said! >>
True that... George Orwell could not have said it any better...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
if there was no gold in Fort Knox what's the big deal. A few hundred billion in gold when we owe 13+ trillion, doesn't make much of a dent does it?
The reality is, as someone else pointed out, "who cares if there is any gold in Fort Knox". We have not been on the gold standard for quite some time and if all the gold in Fort Knox were sold, it wouldn't even dent the national debt.
Let Geithner put out the official word tomorrow that there is no gold in Fort Knox, or if there is, the US no longer has title to it and it actually belongs to other central banks. See what effect that has on the stock and commodity markets. That will tell you how "unimportant" that $300 BILL or so in gold is really worth in confidence and "good will" around the world. I'd think you would be shocked as to the effect esp considering that the only logical reason it went away would be help supress the gold price for years and to keep paper fiat and bond prices propped up. Yeah, just what the people want to hear during a major recession.
Even with a physical audit, not knowing who has legal title to each ounce would make an audit sort of useless. Show us both sets of books please because the IMF condones double counting of all gold leases/swaps. This means the lessee and lessor both keep the gold on their own books as an "in the hand" asset. Makes it close to impossible for the rest of the world to keep tabs on where the gold is and who really owns it. A lot of the US gold stocks are actually 90% coin gold from the 1930's. So when bars of that stuff show up in other Central Banks it usually means they got if from us (ie we sold it or leased it).
The reason no one bothers with exhuming Elvis to determine if he is really dead or not is because it has no effect on our world one way or the other. But whether gold is alive or dead in Fort Knox would have a drastic effect on the world's financial markets the day after this was reported. Even though gold is shunned by 99% of Americans, that is not the case around the eastern world where probably only 1% of the industrialized nations' populations shun gold. That is why there will be no true physical audit of each and every bar and certainly no reviews of the books to see where sales and leases went to. I've already offered to be part of a free volunteer group to audit the nation's gold stocks. It would be an adventure and I'd do it for our country...wouldn't cost us a dime. I'm sure I could scarf up another 100-1000 volunteers if needed. Shouldn't take more than a few weeks depending on the labor.
Comments
<< <i>Yes, and we COULD be invaded by Canada any day now. Hey, It could happen. >>
It is a known fact that Canada has amassed 90% of its population within 100 miles of the U.S. border. Be afraid of the peril from the great white north!
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>And if it wasn't? What difference would it make? >>
I wonder if you'd have the same response if it was your 401K or IRA that was full of IOUs or fictitious statements.
Too heavy. He was going to nuke it and make it radioactive and useless.
<< <i>He probably thinks Elvis is still alive. >>
<< <i><<I thought that Goldfinger took the gold.>>
He was going to nuke it and make it radioactive and useless. >>
This Goldfinger you speak of. Was he a former Fed Chairman? MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I realize it is better than what most of the rest of the world wakes up to every morning but keep them on their toes.
Ron
I tell you what....the govt should set up tours of the vaults at fort knox...maybe $20.00 a head.I only want 50 cents a head for coming up with the idea.
Hmmm....so, perhaps you want to change the motto on our coins to:
In Gold We Trust
<< <i> I trust gold. Most other things not so much................
Hmmm....so, perhaps you want to change the motto on our coins to:
In Gold We Trust >>
Nope. That would perhaps be you again.
edited to add- FYI- that was pretty clever on your part
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
No, I don't have share your loyalty to the value of gold. I actually liked what free-market economist Milton Friedman said about gold. He said that it doesn't make sense for society to spend resources to take gold from the ground through mining, and then put that same gold back into the ground in bank vaults.
And, I do believe that this issue about Fort Knox is really about politics and the election cycle. It's a silly issue.
It doesn't give one much solace, or engender additional confidence, to see that we have (using the 2009 valuation) about $245B in reserves.
You would think that Rep. Paul's staff could have told him about the audit.
Or perhaps he knows, and the audit request is just political grandstanding.
Out of curiousity, I ran a quick calc on what gold bullion is in the public hands.
Results: GRAND TOTAL Bullion weight 22,514,893
Total in Gov't reserves (from MsMorrison post): 2009 - 245,262,897
So, bullion in public hands is about 9% of what fed has.
Calc results below. [Doesn't translate well from excel spreadsheet]
Gold Eagle Bullion Coin Mintage
Date 1 oz. 1/2 oz. 1/4 oz. 1/10 oz.
1986 1,362,650 599,566 726,031 912,609
1987 1,045,500 131,255 269,255 580,266
1988 465,500 45,000 49,000 159,500
1989 415,790 44,829 81,789 264,790
1990 373,210 31,000 41,000 210,210
1991 243,100 24,100 36,100 165,200
1992 275,000 54,404 59,546 209,300
1993 480,192 73,324 71,864 210,709
1994 221,663 62,400 72,650 206,380
1995 200,636 53,474 83,752 223,025
1996 189,148 39,287 60,318 401,964
1997 664,508 79,605 108,805 528,515
1998 1,468,530 169,029 309,829 1,344,520
1999 1,505,026 263,013 564,232 2,750,338
2000 433,319 79,287 128,964 569,153
2001 143,605 48,047 71,280 269,147
2002 222,029 70,027 62,027 230,027
2003 416,032 79,029 74,029 245,029
2004 417,019 98,040 72,014 250,016
2005 356,555 80,023 72,015 300,043
2006 237,510 66,005 60,004 285,006
2007 140,016 47,002 34,004 190,010
2008 710,000 61,000 70,000 305,000
2009 1,493,000 110,000 110,000 270,000
Totals 13,479,538 2,408,746 3,288,508 11,080,757
Total Wt. 13,479,538 1,204,373 822,127 1,108,076
Total Bullion Wt. 16,614,114
Gold Eagle Proof Coin Mintage
Date 1 oz. 1/2 oz. 1/4 oz. 1/10 oz.
1986 * 446,290 N/A N/A N/A
1987 * 147,498 143,398 N/A N/A
1988 87,133 76,528 98,028 143,881
1989 54,570 44,798 54,170 84,647
1990 62,401 51,636 62,674 99,349
1991 50,411 53,125 50,839 70,334
1992 44,826 40,976 46,269 64,874
1993 * 34,369 43,819 46,464 58,649
1994 46,674 44,584 48,172 62,849
1995 * 46,368 45,388 47,526 62,667
1996 36,153 35,058 38,219 57,047
1997 * 32,999 26,344 29,805 34,977
1998 25,886 25,374 29,503 39,395
1999 31,427 30,427 34,417 48,428
2000 33,007 32,028 36,036 49,971
2001 24,555 23,240 25,613 37,530
2002 27,499 26,646 29,242 40,864
2003 28,344 28,270 30,292 40,027
2004 28,215 27,330 28,839 35,131
2005 35,246 34,311 37,207 49,265
2006 * 47,092 34,322 36,127 47,277
2007 51,810 44,025 46,189 58,553
2008 30,237 22,602 18,877 28,116
2009* 1,453,010 934,229 874,508 1,213,831
Total 2,906,020 1,868,458 1,749,016 2,427,662
Total Wt. 2,906,020 934,229 437,254 242,766
Total Proof Wt. 4,520,269
Uncirculated (Burnished) Gold Eagle Mintage
Date 1 oz. 1/2 oz. 1/4 oz. 1/10 oz.
2006-W * 45,053 15,164 15,188 20,643
2007-W 18,066 11,455 12,766 22,501
2008-W * 11,908 15,682 8,883 12,657
Total 75,027 42,301 36,837 55,801
Total Wt. 75,027 21,151 9,209 5,580
Total Burnished Wt. 110,967
GRAND TOTAL
Gold Buffalo Bullion Coin Mintage
Date 1 oz.
2006 337,012
2007 136,503
2008 189,500
2009 200,000
Total 863,015
Gold Buffalo Proof Coin Mintage
Date 1 oz. 1/2 oz. 1/4 oz. 1/10 oz.
2006 246,267 N/A N/A N/A
2007 58,998 N/A N/A N/A
2008 18,863 12,169 13,125 18,884
2009 49,388 N/A N/A N/A
Total 373,516 12,169 13,125 18,884
Total Wt. 373,516 6,085 3,281 1,888
Total Buffalo Wt. 384,770
Gold Buffalo Uncirculated (W) Coin Mintage
Date 1 oz. 1/2 oz. 1/4 oz. 1/10 oz.
2008 9,074 16,908 9,949 17,429
Total Wt. 9,074 8454 2487.25 1742.9
Total W Wt. 21,758
I don't know if gold will always be considered valuable by society (or some members of society)... even though it has been considered such through most, if not all, of recorded history...
I don't know why people insist on believing information being provided through the media or from politicians (with their own agenda) or so-called experts... or believe so-called "independant" agencies staffed by people they have never met who might just be blowing smoke to feed their own personal agenda...
I don't know why folks are so flat out naive...
I am not picking sides in this horse race... just amazed at how self assured folks can be when they have no direct way of confirming what they vehemently believe in
I don't really even know why coins are considered valuable... other than a bunch of folks agreeing that they are... and that's the real bottom line IMHO... value is not pre-determined... it is an agreement based on trust... and as fragile or strong as the trust that binds any relationship or relationships...
And last but not least... I don't know why this thread is on the US Coin Forum rather than the PM Forum...
one more thing... I don't know why I wrote all this... I guess I just felt like it...
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, and we COULD be invaded by Canada any day now. Hey, It could happen. >>
It is a known fact that Canada has amassed 90% of its population within 100 miles of the U.S. border. Be afraid of the peril from the great white north! >>
Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that the Canadian Mint/Government came up short a significant number of ounces of gold after an audit? Was that ever reconciled?
<< <i>The gold is either there or it is not. Unless one is trying to deflect discussion on the topic, the identity of the person (or persons) asking for an accounting has no bearing on that question. >>
Where would one go to get a truthful accounting of the social security fund?
<< <i>
Where would one go to get a truthful accounting of the social security fund? >>
As to the original post, why would anyone believe anything a foreign company who has no restraints nor checks and balances as to their actions, such as the "federal reserve"?Just exactly what gives them any truth bearing credentials? We have no TRUE information that gold is at Fort Knox or not, only suppositions by those who cannot be substantiated, either in a positive or negative way. It no longer matters, once our government is crooked from the top down to the dog catcher their is no cure. Elections are merely bought and sold like so much gold. If no checks and balances exist for any agency that handles funds in any form, it will become crooked--nature of the beast. No reason to complain as we allowed it to happen. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
if he paints himself as a Patriot, why would he want a law passed which could possibly place the Country in jeapordy and financial chaos?? can anybody say Grand-standing??
When Milton Friedman used the term "resources" he meant labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship. These inputs into production are what economists--such as Friedman--call "resources." And Friedman's point is that is somewhat odd that we as a society use labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship to dig up the gold and then we turn around and use labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship to bury the (refined) gold.
Heck no, it gets the most coverage here and provides maximum entertainment. Cheers, RickO
after all
who's gold is it?
But you could have the most thorough, in-depth, digitally weighed, core-boring aqua regia spectrum analysis performed by the most scrupulous third party and the conspiracy theorists would still claim the scales were rigged, the results were faked, etc.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that the Canadian Mint/Government came up short a significant number of ounces of gold after an audit? Was that ever reconciled? >>
Yes, it was an accounting error. How boring.
Lance.
<< <i>I think it should be audited.
But you could have the most thorough, in-depth, digitally weighed, core-boring aqua regia spectrum analysis performed by the most scrupulous third party and the conspiracy theorists would still claim the scales were rigged, the results were faked, etc. >>
Remember that episode of "M*A*S*H" where a Korean family set up camp in the compound, and Major Burns asked to see their papers, and the head of the family whips out a bunch of papers, and then Burns asks "Do you have any papers that prove that these are your papers?"
You are correct. The crazy conspiracy theorists, and our society is full of them, would never believe any audit, because it gives them so much pleasure to shout "CONSPIRACY!"
TD
<< <i>mrpotatoheadd:
When Milton Friedman used the term "resources" he meant labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship. These inputs into production are what economists--such as Friedman--call "resources." And Friedman's point is that is somewhat odd that we as a society use labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship to dig up the gold and then we turn around and use labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship to bury the (refined) gold. >>
But we don't "as a society" do any of those things. We do them as individuals. I'm sure everybody can think of things to expend resources on that are "somewhat odd", which other people consider perfectly reasonable. If you ask most of "society", I think you'd find employing "labor, land, capital, and entrepreneurship" in the persuit of collectible coins would be considered odd. But so what? As with digging for gold, if you don't think it's a reasonable persuit, you don't have to do it, do you?
<< <i>I actually liked what free-market economist Milton Friedman said about gold. He said that it doesn't make sense for society to spend resources to take gold from the ground through mining, and then put that same gold back into the ground in bank vaults.
>>
Also about society--- Friedman was is favor of legalizing drugs.
He also said the following about currency- "Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless."
If gold baffles him and currency creeps him out what would he suggest we use to settle trade? Words perhaps....................MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>I think it should be audited.
But you could have the most thorough, in-depth, digitally weighed, core-boring aqua regia spectrum analysis performed by the most scrupulous third party and the conspiracy theorists would still claim the scales were rigged, the results were faked, etc. >>
Remember that episode of "M*A*S*H" where a Korean family set up camp in the compound, and Major Burns asked to see their papers, and the head of the family whips out a bunch of papers, and then Burns asks "Do you have any papers that prove that these are your papers?"
You are correct. The crazy conspiracy theorists, and our society is full of them, would never believe any audit, because it gives them so much pleasure to shout "CONSPIRACY!"
TD >>
Just because you cannot satisfy a few kooks doesn't mean that reasonable efforts to show accounting should not be done. If it is a securtiy issue then maybe a few "trusted" Senators could be used to verify that no hanky panky has occured like we do with military issues. Now where do we find those "trusted" Senators? That's a tough one.
<< <i>I think right after they take Rocky Obama out to area 51 and show him the frozen alien bodies they should take him to Ft, Knox and let him play with the bullion for awhile. >>
"Rocky"? First, we will need to examine his birth certificate.
If they say no to the audit, they are hiding the fact that it's gone.
And it's not enough to look at it, random samples must be fully assayed.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think right after they take Rocky Obama out to area 51 and show him the frozen alien bodies they should take him to Ft, Knox and let him play with the bullion for awhile. >>
"Rocky"? First, we will need to examine his birth certificate. >>
I was wondering when the first "birther" comment would show up, facetious or not. I do believe
that the whole "birth certificate" issue is closely linked to the "missing gold" issue. How many times
have we heard "If he (or they) are innocent, why don't they PROVE it?"
Doesn't work that way in the United States, fortunately.
<< <i>For coinsponge:
Tungsten rumors debunked >>
Where in that so called "debunk" piece is there any proof of anything? No proof - just him saying I "knew" it was not real from the beginning (because he felt it was so) and then goes on to just say it's not real with no real evidence. No tracing to where the original source of the bars came from... NOTHING but the usual name calling and know it all attitude.
AND a SIMPLE question... if it was just some regular guy that made these, why have they NOT been pursued and PROSECUTED? This is a serious offense. The reason they were NOT traced down and brought to justice because it would be a very SIMPLE thing to do for the people involved... is because they are the FEDS! Isn't this obvious???
Really.... this is what passes as proof these days? At the least, anyone with any reason would say it's a possibility and demand some proof. $28 TRILLION was stolen from us with the banker bailout and NONE of that money went to help people with their mortgages..
The pentagon steals 3 TRILLION dollars and on Sept 10 2001... this was reported
Missing Money
So are you in favor of an audit or not? And if not - then why not?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think right after they take Rocky Obama out to area 51 and show him the frozen alien bodies they should take him to Ft, Knox and let him play with the bullion for awhile. >>
"Rocky"? First, we will need to examine his birth certificate. >>
I was wondering when the first "birther" comment would show up, facetious or not. I do believe
that the whole "birth certificate" issue is closely linked to the "missing gold" issue. How many times
have we heard "If he (or they) are innocent, why don't they PROVE it?"
Doesn't work that way in the United States, fortunately. >>
I figured that someone was waiting for that. Funny, about proving things-I was on a cruise to Mexico recently and darned if they demanded that I PROVE that I was a US citizen before they let me back in so it seemed to work that way to me.
<< <i>He probably thinks Elvis is still alive. >>
He's not?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
I am not picking sides in this horse race... just amazed at how self assured folks can be when they have no direct way of confirming what they vehemently believe in
You don't have to personally confirm everything. You can accept information from experts. For example, I believe that air exists, even though I can't see air. I believe that the world is round, even though I've never confirmed it. I believe that San Francisco is about 2,500 miles from New York, even though I've never measured it. For all of these issues, I rely on experts to provide me with information. I don't need to confirm this information.
It is also possible to doubt information, based upon the source. The stories about Elvis are an example. It isn't necessary to exhume Elvis' body to see if he is really dead, because there is no credible information to the contrary. There are only stories and suspicion. Similarly, it isn't necessary for the American people to spend money to see whether there is any gold at Fort Knox, because there isn't any credible source with information to the contrary. There are only suspicion and stories.
<< <i>SeaEagleCoins said:
I am not picking sides in this horse race... just amazed at how self assured folks can be when they have no direct way of confirming what they vehemently believe in
You don't have to personally confirm everything. You can accept information from experts. For example, I believe that air exists, even though I can't see air. I believe that the world is round, even though I've never confirmed it. I believe that San Francisco is about 2,500 miles from New York, even though I've never measured it. For all of these issues, I rely on experts to provide me with information. I don't need to confirm this information.
It is also possible to doubt information, based upon the source. The stories about Elvis are an example. It isn't necessary to exhume Elvis' body to see if he is really dead, because there is no credible information to the contrary. There are only stories and suspicion. Similarly, it isn't necessary for the American people to spend money to see whether there is any gold at Fort Knox, because there isn't any credible source with information to the contrary. There are only suspicion and stories. >>
Well said!
So what is the credible source that says all the gold in Ft Knox is there? I'll wait....................... Hardly anyone would have believed that there would be a worldwide financial crisis in 2008 that almost brought the world to it's knees, yet it happened. Curiously just about the only ones that DID warn us of the impending banking and housing crisis are the very same ones that wouldn't mind peeking in the Ft Knox vault. I'm shocked that most here are this trusting of any of our government institutions. They have not earned our trust.
Why shouldn't Ft Knox be subject to independent audit?
And as far as it isn't necessary for the American people to send the money for an audit? Are you kidding me?
We spend more money on security details for the First Lady to shop then we would on an audit on one of our assumed greatest assets.
MJ
Edited to add- My Dear Cpt, you have spent WAY too much time in Chicago
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Maybe as the owners of all such gold, We the people, should have the right to go inspect Ft. Knox and the NY Fed vaults ourselves. That would be fun!
<< <i>
<< <i>SeaEagleCoins said:
I am not picking sides in this horse race... just amazed at how self assured folks can be when they have no direct way of confirming what they vehemently believe in
You don't have to personally confirm everything. You can accept information from experts. For example, I believe that air exists, even though I can't see air. I believe that the world is round, even though I've never confirmed it. I believe that San Francisco is about 2,500 miles from New York, even though I've never measured it. For all of these issues, I rely on experts to provide me with information. I don't need to confirm this information.
It is also possible to doubt information, based upon the source. The stories about Elvis are an example. It isn't necessary to exhume Elvis' body to see if he is really dead, because there is no credible information to the contrary. There are only stories and suspicion. Similarly, it isn't necessary for the American people to spend money to see whether there is any gold at Fort Knox, because there isn't any credible source with information to the contrary. There are only suspicion and stories. >>
Well said!
True that... George Orwell could not have said it any better...
<< <i>Don't know about Ft. Knox but I can personally vouch for the fact that there is gold at the NY Fed - and a LOT of it!!! >>
What are they doing with it? Pumping up our stock market?
A few hundred billion in gold when we owe 13+ trillion, doesn't make much of a dent does it?
The reality is, as someone else pointed out, "who cares if there is any gold in Fort Knox". We have not been on the gold standard for quite some time and if all the gold in Fort Knox were sold, it wouldn't even dent the national debt.
Let Geithner put out the official word tomorrow that there is no gold in Fort Knox, or if there is, the US no longer has title to it and it actually belongs to other central banks. See what effect that has on the stock and commodity markets. That will tell you how "unimportant" that $300 BILL or so in gold is really worth in confidence and "good will" around the world. I'd think you would be shocked as to the effect esp considering that the only logical reason it went away would be help supress the gold price for years and to keep paper fiat and bond prices propped up. Yeah, just what the people want to hear during a major recession.
Even with a physical audit, not knowing who has legal title to each ounce would make an audit sort of useless. Show us both sets of books please because the IMF condones double counting of all gold leases/swaps. This means the lessee and lessor both keep the gold on their own books as an "in the hand" asset. Makes it close to impossible for the rest of the world to keep tabs on where the gold is and who really owns it. A lot of the US gold stocks are actually 90% coin gold from the 1930's. So when bars of that stuff show up in other Central Banks it usually means they got if from us (ie we sold it or leased it).
The reason no one bothers with exhuming Elvis to determine if he is really dead or not is because it has no effect on our world one way or the other. But whether gold is alive or dead in Fort Knox would have a drastic effect on the world's financial markets the day after this was reported. Even though gold is shunned by 99% of Americans, that is not the case around the eastern world where probably only 1% of the industrialized nations' populations shun gold. That is why there will be no true physical audit of each and every bar and certainly no reviews of the books to see where sales and leases went to. I've already offered to be part of a free volunteer group to audit the nation's gold stocks. It would be an adventure and I'd do it for our country...wouldn't cost us a dime. I'm sure I could scarf up another 100-1000 volunteers if needed. Shouldn't take more than a few weeks depending on the labor.
roadrunner