Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The reason no one bothers with exhuming Elvis to determine if he is really dead or not is because it has no effect on our world one way or the other. But whether gold is alive or dead in Fort Knox would have a drastic effect on the world's financial markets the day after this was reported
This discussion has been good. It's caused me to research a number of issues.
First, I learned that there really is no credible economist recommending a return to the gold standard.
Second, I learned that there is no evidence that there is no gold at Ft. Knox. There is only suspicion.
But, most importantly, I learned that Elvis is alive. Indeed, Elvis was spotted at a coin show wearing a shirt with pictures of guitars. Apparently, he got plastic surgery and he works at PCGS.
So, let's dig up Elvis' grave and find out who is really buried there. In addition, I've always been curious to learn who is buried in Grant's tomb. Let's dig up that one also.
First, I learned that there really is no credible economist recommending a return to the gold standard.
I don't know how you learned that but from the events of the past decade clearly there are few to none credible US economists, especially those of the Keynesian flavor. Most US economists have been raised on Keynesian theory which has been basically debunked over the past decade. How many of them saw the various bubbles coming and then bursting? Certainly very few to none who worked for the govt and rang the all clear sign as each bubble followed the previous one. And the reason that economists continue to support these debunked theories and support administration after administration is because most higher profile economists work for either the govt, states, major corporations, or universities. Either you play along or speak the bankers party line or you don't move up and don't receive money for your projects. And then you have nobel winning economists like Krugman who say the answer is that we haven't yet gone 100% all out Keynesian to fix our problems. In this background it's no surprise that none would recommend going back to a hard money standard as they would soon find themselves unemployed. Even back in the early 1980's when they formed the gold commission to study whether a return to a GS was worthwhile, the committee actually decided in favor of it. But they were overuled by TPTB. Even Ronald Reagan was in favor of it.
I am an academic economist. I am tenured. I can not be fired if I advocate a return to the gold standard. I do not advocate a return to the gold standard because I think it would be worse for the nation...not out of any fear for my job. And what I say about job security and reasons for our views is, I believe, true for the vast majority of academic economists. To say that I must cling to some party line or else face sanctions is simply untrue.
Mark
PS: Krugman is a nut case (in my opinion). On that we can readily agree...I think.
Goldfinger didn't take it (or try to) He just wanted to contaminate it. >>
He wanted to irradiate it.
The difference is contaminate means to place radioactive substances on the gold. Contaminated gold could be de-contaminated by washing.
Goldfinger's bomb (expertly stopped with 007 seconds remaining by our hero) would have irradiated the gold, making it radioactive. Such gold would remain radioactive until it decayed back to its stable isotope.
This is a thread that has it all! Elvis, James Bond, Tungsten-filled bars, and a cast of characters both posting and being posted about. Daytime drama! Sadly, no coins.
The ignorance shown is beyond compare. One would think that people who frequent a "numismatic" discussion board would have at least a basic understanding of America, what made America great to begin with, why it's in the shape it's in and who are the enemies of liberty as well as the friends and defenders of liberty. This thread shows that's far from the case.
I figured that someone was waiting for that. Funny, about proving things-I was on a cruise to Mexico recently and darned if they demanded that I PROVE that I was a US citizen before they let me back in so it seemed to work that way to me. >>
And so does the president.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
I am an academic economist. I am tenured. I can not be fired if I advocate a return to the gold standard. I do not advocate a return to the gold standard because I think it would be worse for the nation...not out of any fear for my job. And what I say about job security and reasons for our views is, I believe, true for the vast majority of academic economists. To say that I must cling to some party line or else face sanctions is simply untrue.
Mark, what if you weren't tenured? And since you are, if you started rocking the JMK boat and advocating a return to a non-fiat system might that affect your future projects and grants? Might it not affect your ability to seek work elsewhere if you decided to leave the university/college environment? Other than a possible job as Ron Paul's financial/economic policy advisor what other organizations would be looking for someone who strongly advocates a non-fiat system?
Eagle Eye, you may be wrong on the fact that there are no "coins" in this thread. The vault photo of gold bars you posted could easily be melted coin gold from the 1930's. In fact the majority of gold in US stocks might just be melted 90% coin gold. Much of the more desireable .995 fine gold is probably long gone in swaps or leases.
Even back in the early 1980's when they formed the gold commission to study whether a return to a GS was worthwhile, the committee actually decided in favor of it. But they were overuled by TPTB.
Sorry, but your statement is inaccurate. The Gold Commission was created in 1982 and worked under the leadership of Secretary of Treasury Donald Regan during Ronald Reagan's administration. The commission did NOT favor returning to a gold standard. In fact, their recommendation was the opposite. They recommended against the gold standard. Ronald Reagan's commission also recommended against an audit of Fort Knox, saying that it was unnecessary. The commission did, however, recommend the creation of gold bullion coins and medals, which,as we know, eventually occurred.
Accountability is a cornerstone to faith in a government. Why not audit? The cost of an audit is probably less than what Congress spends on toilet paper.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The ignorance shown is beyond compare. One would think that people who frequent a "numismatic" discussion board would have at least a basic understanding of America, what made America great to begin with, why it's in the shape it's in and who are the enemies of liberty as well as the friends and defenders of liberty. This thread shows that's far from the case. >>
I think that you are too harsh in your assessment.
In my opinion, the reason people would request the audit, and Rep. Paul's idea has political traction, is that confidence in the honesty, efficacy, and competence of our government has eroded dreadfully. This erosion has, as the word suggests, occurred over a period of time - spanning administrations of both parties.
The thread has been educational, for me at least. I didn't know that an audit was periodically performed, nor did I know the quantity on hand. I found myself startled at the fact that our reserves would not even cover a single year's budget deficit. We need to continue to put more gold in the public's hands (my opinion only). Keep minting those gold buffaloes!
The ignorance shown is beyond compare. One would think that people who frequent a "numismatic" discussion board would have at least a basic understanding of America, what made America great to begin with, why it's in the shape it's in and who are the enemies of liberty as well as the friends and defenders of liberty. This thread shows that's far from the case. >>
Who blessed you with the right to call others "ignorant" and "pathetic" because they disagree with your views? Who the hell are you to think your opinions count more than those of others? Do you think you're Elvis or something?
If anything you're the ignorant one to think that anyone other than a small trivial faction of the American population would actually believe that Ron Paul bears any relevance.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
I figured that someone was waiting for that. Funny, about proving things-I was on a cruise to Mexico recently and darned if they demanded that I PROVE that I was a US citizen before they let me back in so it seemed to work that way to me. >>
And so does the president.
>>
I am sure they ask to see Mr Obama's passport every time airforce one flies in from his latest vacation.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
The ignorance shown is beyond compare. One would think that people who frequent a "numismatic" discussion board would have at least a basic understanding of America, what made America great to begin with, why it's in the shape it's in and who are the enemies of liberty as well as the friends and defenders of liberty. This thread shows that's far from the case. >>
Who blessed you with the right to call others "ignorant" and "pathetic" because they disagree with your views? Who the hell are you to think your opinions count more than those of others? Do you think you're Elvis or something?
If anything you're the ignorant one to think that anyone other than a small trivial faction of the American population would actually believe Ron Paul bears any real relevance to America. >>
Views? The teachings of the Constitution do not bear any relevance to America? Maybe not to you and the rest of the leftists/marxists.
My beliefs are based on what founded this place in the beginning. The "views" of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as specified in the Constitution. Unfortunately this country has turned away from even the most basic of freedoms that are spelled out in that great document, perhaps the greatest document in world history at least from a standpoint of freedom.
Those beliefs have of course been spit on by the likes of you and people like you. If my belief in liberty, the intent of the Constitution and those who have documented track records in upholding the principles of the founders and of liberty makes me ignorant then I guess I am truly ignorant.
My beliefs are based on what founded this place in the beginning. The "views" of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as specified in the Constitution.
Actually, the expression "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is not specified in the Constitution. It is in the Declaration of Independence. Here is the actual text from the Declaration:
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Some people call this sentence the most influential sentence in the English language. It is not in the Constitution, however.
Perhaps, you should read the Constitution and the Declaration so that you might know the difference.
Incidentally, I don't appreciate being called "ignorant".
Who blessed you with the right to call others "ignorant" and "pathetic" because they disagree with your views? Who the hell are you to think your opinions count more than those of others? Do you think you're Elvis or something?
As I recall, WTCG - you recently made some disgusting and racist remarks in another thread based only on your disagreement with someone else's views and didn't bother to admit that you were nasty and wrong to make those remarks, nor did you bother to apologize for making them. You are the one who should be ashamed. Lastly, the remark about Elvis demonstrates what? Is the reference to Elvis considered a slur against someone where you come from? I think you're getting out of hand.
If anything you're the ignorant one to think that anyone other than a small trivial faction of the American population would actually believe that Ron Paul bears any relevance.
If you haven't been taught American History, then it is understandable that you don't appreciate what the Constitution does, how it came about, the fact that it is the foundation of US Law, and how it is being subverted by the politicians of all stripes and persuasions. The fact that you are Oriental should be incentive enough for you want to examine the heritage of the land in which you reside whether you were born here or not. You seem to be mired in the prejudices of another culture and cannot honestly evaluate that most basic idea of freedom and the concept of a democratic republic.
You've been given a gift and don't even know it or appreciate what it means, in my humble opinion. I find it sickening and ironic that you make your profits from the sale of American coinage and know so little about the people who forged this country and the coins that you market.
The failure of most of our politicians to promote the benefits of the US Constitution as history's most crowning achievement in governance - is testament to their own ignorance and the failure of our schools for the past 40 years. Anyone who lives in this country is the beneficiary of what the Founding Fathers were able to accomplish, imperfect as it was. If you don't realize that, you are truly ignorant. And frankly, simply residing in this country does not make you an American, so the "American population" that you glibly refer to is a meaningless reference. To be an American you must accept American ideals, and the most basic ones are found in the Declaration and the Constitution. If you don't accept those, you are NOT an American.
The danger is that the ignorance some people display so flagrantly is the same type of ignorance that has led to the types of tyrannical misadventures that the Founding Fathers sought to forestall. Learn, or don't. But don't blame Ron Paul for your ignorance.
Sincerely and without malice, jmski
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I think the story is he either watched the show they have on Discovery about, "Is there Gold at Fort Knox" , or he learned how to Google, "Is there Gold at Fort Knox"
To be an American you must accept American ideals, and the most basic ones are found in the Declaration and the Constitution. If you don't accept those, you are NOT an American.
I find your comment to be most disturbing. You are using a coin message board to spread your own political views, and you are personally attacking individuals who disagree with you.
Also, there is nothing in the Constitution about a Gold Standard for money. The constitution, does, however, say that the validity of the public debt shall not be questioned (Amendment #14).
Incidentally, I don't appreciate being called ignorant or un-American.
In an effort to keep this coin related, I reecall two separate episodes when Mr. Wilson was given a 1914-D by Dennis and he ended up buying an 1895 Morgan for $500 from Dennis- which Dennis won in some contest-
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
To keep this thread relevant to the subject, it has been stated already. Mr. Paul should sign up for the NY FRB tour to see some of the gold for himself. I have the feeling that even if a bar of gold dropped and crushed his foot, Mr. Paul would still be in denial regarding the actual presence of the gold. Maybe we'll see the nutty one at a Texas coin show sometime in the future.
jmski52...sincerely and without malice? Fat chance.
Are you aware I was enrolled in AP level US History classes in high school and was a history minor in college, yeah? It was at an excellent and internationally renowned college, not exactly Arizona State. Actually I really wanted to be a history major however my mom convinced me that if I was a history major my future would be relegated to teaching high school and acting like a know-it-all at dinner. I decided to go into the business administration route instead.
Before you get on your high horse and accuse me of "ignorance" in American history, please know that I have enough credentials to be a college level lecturer on the subject. How about you?
What exactly are "American ideals?" Are ideals "American" because they're yours? Don't be so conceited.
Have you read the first admendment of the US constitution? Your post contradicts its ideals. If you truly believe in the constitution then you will realize that debate, dissent and disagreement are keystones to a thriving democracy. Censoring an opposing opinion? That's what they do in North Korea. Surely you don't agree with how they do things in North Korea do you? Or are you a closet fan of the Kim?
If you cannot tolerate those who do not share in your beliefs then you do not believe in the values of democracy. You do not believe in the values America was founded on. That would make you, in your mindset and in your words, NOT an American.
I can't believe I have to actually explain this, but the Elvis reference pertains to the numerous alternate theories that the death of Elvis Presley was fabricated and that he could be in fact alive at this time. Once in a while people claim to catch a glimpse of him at random places such as the local mall or at a coin show despite the fact that there is no evidence to suggest that he didn't pass away in 1977 and that whatever is buried at Graceland is actually a pile of bricks. The cultural reference is an exclusively American one. You thought this was an Asian reference or an Asian inside joke? Seriously, when was the last time a person in Asia named their child "Elvis"? Oh wait, do you even know an Asian person? You consider yourself all-American and you didn't get that one? Not good.
True actions demonstrate patriotism more than words ever will. Volunteerism and participation in events that better the nation as a whole are far more beneficial to America than verbally stating that you are a patriot. You can recite the pledge of allegiance all day long, attatch a garrison size flag to the back of your pickup truck and talk about 9-11 all you want, but doing all that ultimately carries very miniscule true worth for the advancement of America.
Citizens of foreign nations who wish to become naturalized American citizens are required to pass a written test on the history and concepts of American history and government (along with proving the ability to converse and write in English). I'm sure you'd pass the speaking and writing part, but if you had to take that same history test would you pass? I'm not so sure.
Don't forget this...the world doesn't stop at the 49th parallel. What happens elsewhere in the rest of the world outside of America's borders and coastlines matter.
I am, however, getting that warm tingly feeling knowing that I have a forum stalker who's just waiting for just that right moment to nit-pick me and declare me "unamerican". Wanna see an unamerican? You may not need to look very far.
By the way, it's "Asian", not "Oriental". Rugs are Oriental, folks are not.
In any case, you're cutting into my leisure and dinner time here in Las Vegas (at a Michelin starred restaurant nonetheless). I have priorities tonight and you're not one of them.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Have you read the first admendment of the US constitution? Your post contradicts its ideals. If you truly believe in the constitution then you will realize that debate, dissent and disagreement are keystones to a thriving democracy.
I agree with you, WTCG!
In addition, jmski52 seems to ignorant of Don Willis' posting rules, which includes the following:
"If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum."
A healthy debate seems to have become sidetracked ( or perhaps derailed ) by many posters displaying a lack of decorum and plain ol civility. Sadly, I think this mirrors all too closely the politics of today. Let's keep the discussion on topic gentlemen
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson
Wow. Who else wasn't shocked that Frank was going to post a picture of the Presidents passport?
Color me trival Wei. I supported Ron Paul's campaign in 2008. FYI- It's poor form to discuss one's own charitable contributions. Just my opinion.
This thread while somewhat healthy had bobsled ride to hell written all over it. It did not disappoint. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Not to brag or anything, over the last few years I have made more than a few large cash contributions to the Smithsonian NMAH, including a substantial one towards the restoration of the Star Spangled Banner and its permanent exhibit. >>
<< <i>Wow. Who else wasn't shocked that Frank was going to post a picture of the Presidents passport?
Color me trival Wei. I supported Ron Paul's campaign in 2008. FYI- It's poor form to discuss one's own charitable contributions. Just my opinion.
This thread while somewhat healthy had bobsled ride to hell written all over it. It did not disappoint. MJ >>
I agree with you about the charity part actually. But then again I have the right to form a rebuttal.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
The main conclusion as I read the findings of the 1982 gold commission was that while the majority of the members did not see the need for a gold standard, but the commission found that they would not rule out in the future an enlarged need for gold to play a role. And they knew that if price stability did not return that additional people would shift towards support to a gold backed currency.* In the event price stability was achieved then the need for a gold standard would be superfluous. In other words they knew there was a major price instabilityinflation/rising debt issue at hand eating away at the nation but could only come up with the weak logic of trying to keep a "handle" on the money printing and debt. If that wasn't washed through the PTB I don't know what was. Does anyone really think price stability has ever been achieved?...and not just in dairy products and corn. Do you think those guys really believed that price stability would ever be achieved? And do you think the majority of them even wanted price stability much the same way the FED always claims that price stability is one of their "goals?"
* Ironically fiat-bug Congressman Henry Reuss joked at that particular statement and quoted: More likely, those who advocate sensible fiscal, monetary, and anti-inflation policies will grow in numbers and political influence." Now that was probably about the dumbest thing one could ever predict. How does history judge Reuss' statement now? The smallest minority in Congress are those interested in sensible monetary and fiscal policy.
I found it more than interesting that my current senator, Chris Dodd (D-CT) was on that committee. Was he tight with the bankers even back then?
There were 17 names listed on the commission. But I find it odd that 6 were already in the pro-fiat camp from the start (3 FED governors, 1 Sec. of the Treasury, 2 members of the Council for Economic Advisors). With 6 votes already cast as "nay" the pro-gold guys would need a strong majority to get any individual concern recognized.
The US Constitution does reference or suggest a hard money standard. In article 1 it mentions "to coin money." Note, they didn't write to "print paper script." In article 1 section 10 it specifically states that only gold and silver coin can be tendered to pay a debt. Sure sounds like a gold/silver standard to me. Then follow up with the Coinage Act, etc. and it's pretty clear what the intent is. And where does it say that it's punishable by death to circumvent the hard money standard? Rings clear as a bell to me. If this is not the case, then show me where the Constitution authorizes paper currency in the payments of debt......
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
How do the advocates of returning to the gold standard respond to the analysis presented by Jon Nadler of Kitco on Feb. 22nd 1910? That topic is discussed in the second half of his column:
<< <i>How do the advocates of returning to the gold standard respond to the analysis presented by Jon Nadler of Kitco on Feb. 22nd 1910? That topic is discussed in the second half of his column:
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It would seem that enough people in Texas find Ron Paul relevant enough to elect him for public office (multiple times). And any claims that he is irrelevent are obviously ignorant of that fact.
As for the gold ... I find it totally bizarre that there exist some ordinary folks who wouldn't want an audit of gold reserves to be undertaken. That gold belongs to us. I would want to know if it were embezzeld or otherwise fraudulently lent or sold out. And the cost of such an audit would be a mere pittance compared to other government expenditures. The more they try and block such an audit, the more it is warranted.
It would seem that enough people in Texas find Ron Paul relevant enough to elect him for public office (multiple times). And any claims that he is irrelevent are obviously ignorant of that fact.
As for the gold ... I find it totally bizarre that there exist some ordinary folks who wouldn't want an audit of gold reserves to be undertaken. That gold belongs to us. I would want to know if it were embezzeld or otherwise fraudulently lent or sold out. And the cost of such an audit would be a mere pittance compared to other government expenditures. The more they try and block such an audit, the more it is warranted. >>
If there was an independant audit done and verified, I would be very afraid of the reprecussions by the American public when & if the gold was found to be non-existant or otherwise unaccounted for. It seems to me that this whole house of cards is teetering on collapse and that would surely be the card to bring it all crashing down. I hate to even type this up, but I think America and the world is better off being ignorant of just what exactly is (or is not) sitting in the Fort Knox vault at the moment.
It would seem that enough people in Texas find Ron Paul relevant enough to elect him for public office (multiple times). And any claims that he is irrelevent are obviously ignorant of that fact.
As for the gold ... I find it totally bizarre that there exist some ordinary folks who wouldn't want an audit of gold reserves to be undertaken. That gold belongs to us. I would want to know if it were embezzeld or otherwise fraudulently lent or sold out. And the cost of such an audit would be a mere pittance compared to other government expenditures. The more they try and block such an audit, the more it is warranted. >>
If there was an independant audit done and verified, I would be very afraid of the reprecussions by the American public when & if the gold was found to be non-existant or otherwise unaccounted for. It seems to me that this whole house of cards is teetering on collapse and that would surely be the card to bring it all crashing down. I hate to even type this up, but I think America and the world is better off being ignorant of just what exactly is (or is not) sitting in the Fort Knox vault at the moment. >>
Meltdown... while I grasp your meaning... and intent... I can't help but see an image from some horror movie... with a monster breathing in front of a potential victim's face and that person has their eye's tightly shut... praying that whatever it is will just go away...
...and as we know from the movies ... that moment rarely ends well...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
How do the advocates of returning to the gold standard respond to the analysis presented by Jon Nadler of Kitco on Feb. 22nd 1910? That topic is discussed in the second half of his column
As MJ has already hinted at, John Nadler is hardly the one to be doing an analysis about anything to do with gold. He's about the biggest anti-gold analyst in the field today...second only to ther Secretary of the Treasury.
Reading Nadler is a waste of time and money. He's been predicting $600 gold since summer of 2007 when he advised all his readers to wait for the big correction. That's hardly a track record worthy of any gold analyst. At least he's got the "anal" part right. For every point Nadler makes, there is an equivalent counterpoint that could be made. I broke my vow made a year go never to read him again but I gave in and started in on this article. His analysis was so flawed I stopped reading. He blames the multitude of reccessions from the end of the Civil war through WW1 as the fault of the gold standard, never realizing that the greenback's horrendous affects lasted for 15 years following the Civil War. Many if not most of the panics and recessions of the 19th century happened because bankers cheated on the gold standard and printed money that wasn't backed, and lots of it. It's the cheating on the gold standard that has been the problem all along, not the standard itself. And I'd be the first one to admit that our current financial crisis still would have occurred even with a gold standard. The bankers effectively found a way to maneuver around the current monetary system while creating their own credit/derivatives-based monetary system. Having any standard in effect is not worth anything if financial/govt/corporate entities can cheat on it w/o consequence and then pin the losses on the citizens/taxpayers. It's not the standards that have failed us, they have always been there...it's the greed, cheating, and lack of enforcement....which have always been there. It's not that a gold standard couldn't work and be effective...but more that it's only a matter of time before someone cheats on it. And I have no answer for a monetary system where govt's won't cheat on it at the expense of their citizens.
The gold standard was openly cheated on by govts from 1913 to 1933. And then too from 1934-1971. Once the FED took over there has never been a true gold standard in effect. You could probably stay we never had a true gold standard in effect as there are always bankers cheating on the system somewhere. But what we did once have was better than a pure credit system backed by shadow derivatives totaling $1.1 QUAD. If the hard money system of the second half of the 19th century was so horrible how does one explain the monstrous industrial growth that occurred that lured millions of immigrants to this country looking for a piece of that pie? That kind of growth has probably never been duplicated except possibly briefly during WW2 and a short time thereafter....and certainly not since the gold window was closed in August 1971 where we've basically been running on fumes ever since.
Every couple of years Nadler gets a big pull back right...just like a broken clock would. Every rally eventually has to pull back. Impeccable timing by Mr. Nadler who came out with his "analysis" in Feb 2010 just after gold was bottoming hard at $1044....no doubt he was looking forward to sub $1000 and sub $900 which never came. At some point I have to question the analysis of a perma-bear or a perma-bull since they will distort their reasoning to achieve the desired result. I try not to read either as they only cloud the issue rather than bring in clarity.
Hi Roadrunner, Many thanks for taking the time and effort to reply in detail. It was not sufficient to dismiss his take on the gold standard issue merely by general criticisms of Jon Nadler of Kitco. As you know, Kitco has their own forums and commentaries which are very wide-ranging, and it is often more informative to read columns one is inclined to disagree with than those merely reinforcing our own previous ideas. On the opposing side, Kitco is having Ron Paul as a speaker next week. Also I've incidentally recently finished reading the new gold supporting book by Jon Sinclair and am selling my still pristine copy at a discount here.
Since this thread is really about auditing the gold at Ft. Knox, all I can reiterate is that it was there when they looked and sealed it in 1971. The seals should be intact. And the gold should still be there. We have checks and balances in verifying these things. Nobody - not the FED chairman, President or Treasury Secretary can go there and remove it without someone knowing.
The turn-the-question around statement is "Who would gain by subverting the army (who guards Ft. Knox), the Treasury (who monitor the gold - I believe) and the American people (who I think own it)?" Who would gain? Only the conspiracy people, who I guess want us all to believe that the Government is not made up of good American people, but closet commies, or something worse.
So, I guess I'm saying the Libertarians, like Ron Paul secretly WANT it to be missing.
EagleEye, it would certainly be a blow to the US citizens if the gold were not there. Let's say it is, every ounce of it that you saw back in 1971....still sealed too.
Now who's to say we didn't transfer ownership of that gold to someone else but are still keeping in in storage for them at any of the US gold depositories? I'd go as far as to say that it's nearly impossible that the US govt didn't lease or swap some of those 8100 tons over the past 29 yrs such that we now legally own <8000 tons. While possession might be nine tenths of the law in many jurisdictions, if we swapped out some of our coin gold or good delivery bars to the Bundesbank over the years, you can bet that we're on the hook for delivering it to them someday. The central banks refuse to open their gold books and probably for good reason. Gold flows have been a tightly kept secret by the banks since the London Gold Pool of the 1960's. The authorized double counting of gold is just one way to keep outsiders from identifying gold flows, which in my mind are the ultimate in money transference. The final chapter in central bank deep gold storage has yet to written. And I'll bet it will be a doozy once all the facts are eventually known.
So, I guess I'm saying the Libertarians, like Ron Paul secretly WANT it to be missing.
Getting back to the question at hand......
I'm not sure how the desire for an honest accounting of the gold in Ft. Knox translates to a secret desire for anything. The government insists on an accurate accounting of the money I make in a year, and that is a considerably smaller number than the value of the gold in gov't hands.
I don't understand how there is a problem in such a simple request.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Comments
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This discussion has been good. It's caused me to research a number of issues.
First, I learned that there really is no credible economist recommending a return to the gold standard.
Second, I learned that there is no evidence that there is no gold at Ft. Knox. There is only suspicion.
But, most importantly, I learned that Elvis is alive. Indeed, Elvis was spotted at a coin show wearing a shirt with pictures of guitars. Apparently, he got plastic surgery and he works at PCGS.
So, let's dig up Elvis' grave and find out who is really buried there. In addition, I've always been curious to learn who is buried in Grant's tomb. Let's dig up that one also.
I don't know how you learned that but from the events of the past decade clearly there are few to none credible US economists, especially those of the Keynesian flavor. Most US economists have been raised on Keynesian theory which has been basically debunked over the past decade. How many of them saw the various bubbles coming and then bursting? Certainly very few to none who worked for the govt and rang the all clear sign as each bubble followed the previous one. And the reason that economists continue to support these debunked theories and support administration after administration is because most higher profile economists work for either the govt, states, major corporations, or universities. Either you play along or speak the bankers party line or you don't move up and don't receive money for your projects. And then you have nobel winning economists like Krugman who say the answer is that we haven't yet gone 100% all out Keynesian to fix our problems. In this background it's no surprise that none would recommend going back to a hard money standard as they would soon find themselves unemployed. Even back in the early 1980's when they formed the gold commission to study whether a return to a GS was worthwhile, the committee actually decided in favor of it. But they were overuled by TPTB. Even Ronald Reagan was in favor of it.
roadrunner
<< <i>I thought that Goldfinger took the gold.
Goldfinger didn't take it (or try to) He just wanted to contaminate it.
I am an academic economist. I am tenured. I can not be fired if I advocate a return to the gold standard. I do not advocate a return to the gold standard because I think it would be worse for the nation...not out of any fear for my job. And what I say about job security and reasons for our views is, I believe, true for the vast majority of academic economists. To say that I must cling to some party line or else face sanctions is simply untrue.
Mark
PS: Krugman is a nut case (in my opinion). On that we can readily agree...I think.
<< <i>
<< <i>I thought that Goldfinger took the gold.
Goldfinger didn't take it (or try to) He just wanted to contaminate it. >>
He wanted to irradiate it.
The difference is contaminate means to place radioactive substances on the gold. Contaminated gold could be de-contaminated by washing.
Goldfinger's bomb (expertly stopped with 007 seconds remaining by our hero) would have irradiated the gold, making it radioactive. Such gold would remain radioactive until it decayed back to its stable isotope.
The ignorance shown is beyond compare. One would think that people who frequent a "numismatic" discussion board would have at least a basic understanding of America, what made America great to begin with, why it's in the shape it's in and who are the enemies of liberty as well as the friends and defenders of liberty. This thread shows that's far from the case.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
I figured that someone was waiting for that. Funny, about proving things-I was on a cruise to Mexico recently and darned if they demanded that I PROVE that I was a US citizen before they let me back in so it seemed to work that way to me. >>
And so does the president.
Mark, what if you weren't tenured? And since you are, if you started rocking the JMK boat and advocating a return to a non-fiat system might that affect your future projects and grants? Might it not affect your ability to seek work elsewhere if you decided to leave the university/college environment? Other than a possible job as Ron Paul's financial/economic policy advisor what other organizations would be looking for someone who strongly advocates a non-fiat system?
Eagle Eye, you may be wrong on the fact that there are no "coins" in this thread. The vault photo of gold bars you posted could easily be melted coin gold from the 1930's. In fact the majority of gold in US stocks might just be melted 90% coin gold. Much of the more desireable .995 fine gold is probably long gone in swaps or leases.
roadrunner
Sorry, but your statement is inaccurate. The Gold Commission was created in 1982 and worked under the leadership of Secretary of Treasury Donald Regan during Ronald Reagan's administration. The commission did NOT favor returning to a gold standard. In fact, their recommendation was the opposite. They recommended against the gold standard. Ronald Reagan's commission also recommended against an audit of Fort Knox, saying that it was unnecessary. The commission did, however, recommend the creation of gold bullion coins and medals, which,as we know, eventually occurred.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Pathetic
The ignorance shown is beyond compare. One would think that people who frequent a "numismatic" discussion board would have at least a basic understanding of America, what made America great to begin with, why it's in the shape it's in and who are the enemies of liberty as well as the friends and defenders of liberty. This thread shows that's far from the case. >>
I think that you are too harsh in your assessment.
In my opinion, the reason people would request the audit, and Rep. Paul's idea has political traction, is that confidence in the honesty, efficacy, and competence of our government has eroded dreadfully. This erosion has, as the word suggests, occurred over a period of time - spanning administrations of both parties.
The thread has been educational, for me at least. I didn't know that an audit was periodically performed, nor did I know the quantity on hand. I found myself startled at the fact that our reserves would not even cover a single year's budget deficit. We need to continue to put more gold in the public's hands (my opinion only). Keep minting those gold buffaloes!
<< <i>Pathetic
The ignorance shown is beyond compare. One would think that people who frequent a "numismatic" discussion board would have at least a basic understanding of America, what made America great to begin with, why it's in the shape it's in and who are the enemies of liberty as well as the friends and defenders of liberty. This thread shows that's far from the case. >>
Who blessed you with the right to call others "ignorant" and "pathetic" because they disagree with your views? Who the hell are you to think your opinions count more than those of others? Do you think you're Elvis or something?
If anything you're the ignorant one to think that anyone other than a small trivial faction of the American population would actually believe that Ron Paul bears any relevance.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>
<< <i>
I figured that someone was waiting for that. Funny, about proving things-I was on a cruise to Mexico recently and darned if they demanded that I PROVE that I was a US citizen before they let me back in so it seemed to work that way to me. >>
And so does the president.
I am sure they ask to see Mr Obama's passport every time airforce one flies in from his latest vacation.
<< <i>
<< <i>Pathetic
The ignorance shown is beyond compare. One would think that people who frequent a "numismatic" discussion board would have at least a basic understanding of America, what made America great to begin with, why it's in the shape it's in and who are the enemies of liberty as well as the friends and defenders of liberty. This thread shows that's far from the case. >>
Who blessed you with the right to call others "ignorant" and "pathetic" because they disagree with your views? Who the hell are you to think your opinions count more than those of others? Do you think you're Elvis or something?
If anything you're the ignorant one to think that anyone other than a small trivial faction of the American population would actually believe Ron Paul bears any real relevance to America. >>
Views? The teachings of the Constitution do not bear any relevance to America? Maybe not to you and the rest of the leftists/marxists.
My beliefs are based on what founded this place in the beginning. The "views" of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as specified in the Constitution. Unfortunately this country has turned away from even the most basic of freedoms that are spelled out in that great document, perhaps the greatest document in world history at least from a standpoint of freedom.
Those beliefs have of course been spit on by the likes of you and people like you. If my belief in liberty, the intent of the Constitution and those who have documented track records in upholding the principles of the founders and of liberty makes me ignorant then I guess I am truly ignorant.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Martha...? Martha who? Martha Washington or Martha Wilson?
Mr. Wilson was a coin collector...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Grab the tinfoil hats, Martha!
Martha...? Martha who? Martha Washington or Martha Wilson?
Mr. Wilson was a coin collector...
Didn't he create the IRS? He really was a coin collector.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The ignorance shown is beyond compare.
And, he said:
My beliefs are based on what founded this place in the beginning. The "views" of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as specified in the Constitution.
Actually, the expression "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is not specified in the Constitution. It is in the Declaration of Independence. Here is the actual text from the Declaration:
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Some people call this sentence the most influential sentence in the English language. It is not in the Constitution, however.
Perhaps, you should read the Constitution and the Declaration so that you might know the difference.
Incidentally, I don't appreciate being called "ignorant".
<< <i>This would be the Mr. Wilson from Dennis the Mennace-
Oh yes, I remember. He made a good coin collector-kind of old and hard headed.
As I recall, WTCG - you recently made some disgusting and racist remarks in another thread based only on your disagreement with someone else's views and didn't bother to admit that you were nasty and wrong to make those remarks, nor did you bother to apologize for making them. You are the one who should be ashamed. Lastly, the remark about Elvis demonstrates what? Is the reference to Elvis considered a slur against someone where you come from? I think you're getting out of hand.
If anything you're the ignorant one to think that anyone other than a small trivial faction of the American population would actually believe that Ron Paul bears any relevance.
If you haven't been taught American History, then it is understandable that you don't appreciate what the Constitution does, how it came about, the fact that it is the foundation of US Law, and how it is being subverted by the politicians of all stripes and persuasions. The fact that you are Oriental should be incentive enough for you want to examine the heritage of the land in which you reside whether you were born here or not. You seem to be mired in the prejudices of another culture and cannot honestly evaluate that most basic idea of freedom and the concept of a democratic republic.
You've been given a gift and don't even know it or appreciate what it means, in my humble opinion. I find it sickening and ironic that you make your profits from the sale of American coinage and know so little about the people who forged this country and the coins that you market.
The failure of most of our politicians to promote the benefits of the US Constitution as history's most crowning achievement in governance - is testament to their own ignorance and the failure of our schools for the past 40 years. Anyone who lives in this country is the beneficiary of what the Founding Fathers were able to accomplish, imperfect as it was. If you don't realize that, you are truly ignorant. And frankly, simply residing in this country does not make you an American, so the "American population" that you glibly refer to is a meaningless reference. To be an American you must accept American ideals, and the most basic ones are found in the Declaration and the Constitution. If you don't accept those, you are NOT an American.
The danger is that the ignorance some people display so flagrantly is the same type of ignorance that has led to the types of tyrannical misadventures that the Founding Fathers sought to forestall. Learn, or don't. But don't blame Ron Paul for your ignorance.
Sincerely and without malice, jmski
I knew it would happen.
I think the story is he either watched the show they have on Discovery about, "Is there Gold at Fort Knox" , or he learned how to Google, "Is there Gold at Fort Knox"
To be an American you must accept American ideals, and the most basic ones are found in the Declaration and the Constitution. If you don't accept those, you are NOT an American.
I find your comment to be most disturbing. You are using a coin message board to spread your own political views, and you are personally attacking individuals who disagree with you.
Also, there is nothing in the Constitution about a Gold Standard for money. The constitution, does, however, say that the validity of the public debt shall not be questioned (Amendment #14).
Incidentally, I don't appreciate being called ignorant or un-American.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
jmski52...sincerely and without malice? Fat chance.
Are you aware I was enrolled in AP level US History classes in high school and was a history minor in college, yeah? It was at an excellent and internationally renowned college, not exactly Arizona State. Actually I really wanted to be a history major however my mom convinced me that if I was a history major my future would be relegated to teaching high school and acting like a know-it-all at dinner. I decided to go into the business administration route instead.
Before you get on your high horse and accuse me of "ignorance" in American history, please know that I have enough credentials to be a college level lecturer on the subject. How about you?
What exactly are "American ideals?" Are ideals "American" because they're yours? Don't be so conceited.
Have you read the first admendment of the US constitution? Your post contradicts its ideals. If you truly believe in the constitution then you will realize that debate, dissent and disagreement are keystones to a thriving democracy. Censoring an opposing opinion? That's what they do in North Korea. Surely you don't agree with how they do things in North Korea do you? Or are you a closet fan of the Kim?
If you cannot tolerate those who do not share in your beliefs then you do not believe in the values of democracy. You do not believe in the values America was founded on. That would make you, in your mindset and in your words, NOT an American.
I can't believe I have to actually explain this, but the Elvis reference pertains to the numerous alternate theories that the death of Elvis Presley was fabricated and that he could be in fact alive at this time. Once in a while people claim to catch a glimpse of him at random places such as the local mall or at a coin show despite the fact that there is no evidence to suggest that he didn't pass away in 1977 and that whatever is buried at Graceland is actually a pile of bricks. The cultural reference is an exclusively American one. You thought this was an Asian reference or an Asian inside joke? Seriously, when was the last time a person in Asia named their child "Elvis"? Oh wait, do you even know an Asian person? You consider yourself all-American and you didn't get that one? Not good.
True actions demonstrate patriotism more than words ever will. Volunteerism and participation in events that better the nation as a whole are far more beneficial to America than verbally stating that you are a patriot. You can recite the pledge of allegiance all day long, attatch a garrison size flag to the back of your pickup truck and talk about 9-11 all you want, but doing all that ultimately carries very miniscule true worth for the advancement of America.
Citizens of foreign nations who wish to become naturalized American citizens are required to pass a written test on the history and concepts of American history and government (along with proving the ability to converse and write in English). I'm sure you'd pass the speaking and writing part, but if you had to take that same history test would you pass? I'm not so sure.
Don't forget this...the world doesn't stop at the 49th parallel. What happens elsewhere in the rest of the world outside of America's borders and coastlines matter.
I am, however, getting that warm tingly feeling knowing that I have a forum stalker who's just waiting for just that right moment to nit-pick me and declare me "unamerican". Wanna see an unamerican? You may not need to look very far.
By the way, it's "Asian", not "Oriental". Rugs are Oriental, folks are not.
In any case, you're cutting into my leisure and dinner time here in Las Vegas (at a Michelin starred restaurant nonetheless). I have priorities tonight and you're not one of them.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
I agree with you, WTCG!
In addition, jmski52 seems to ignorant of Don Willis' posting rules, which includes the following:
"If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum."
Color me trival Wei. I supported Ron Paul's campaign in 2008. FYI- It's poor form to discuss one's own charitable contributions. Just my opinion.
This thread while somewhat healthy had bobsled ride to hell written all over it. It did not disappoint. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Not to brag or anything, over the last few years I have made more than a few large cash contributions to the Smithsonian NMAH, including a substantial one towards the restoration of the Star Spangled Banner and its permanent exhibit. >>
<< <i>Wow. Who else wasn't shocked that Frank was going to post a picture of the Presidents passport?
Color me trival Wei. I supported Ron Paul's campaign in 2008. FYI- It's poor form to discuss one's own charitable contributions. Just my opinion.
This thread while somewhat healthy had bobsled ride to hell written all over it. It did not disappoint. MJ >>
I agree with you about the charity part actually. But then again I have the right to form a rebuttal.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
* Ironically fiat-bug Congressman Henry Reuss joked at that particular statement and quoted: More likely, those who advocate sensible fiscal, monetary, and anti-inflation policies will grow in numbers and political influence." Now that was probably about the dumbest thing one could ever predict. How does history judge Reuss' statement now? The smallest minority in Congress are those interested in sensible monetary and fiscal policy.
I found it more than interesting that my current senator, Chris Dodd (D-CT) was on that committee. Was he tight with the bankers even back then?
There were 17 names listed on the commission. But I find it odd that 6 were already in the pro-fiat camp from the start (3 FED governors, 1 Sec. of the Treasury, 2 members of the Council for Economic Advisors). With 6 votes already cast as "nay" the pro-gold guys would need a strong majority to get any individual concern recognized.
The US Constitution does reference or suggest a hard money standard. In article 1 it mentions "to coin money." Note, they didn't write to "print paper script." In article 1 section 10 it specifically states that only gold and silver coin can be tendered to pay a debt. Sure sounds like a gold/silver standard to me. Then follow up with the Coinage Act, etc. and it's pretty clear what the intent is. And where does it say that it's punishable by death to circumvent the hard money standard? Rings clear as a bell to me. If this is not the case, then show me where the Constitution authorizes paper currency in the payments of debt......
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
Or how about OJ Simpson?
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
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LINK
<< <i>How do the advocates of returning to the gold standard respond to the analysis presented by Jon Nadler of Kitco on Feb. 22nd 1910? That topic is discussed in the second half of his column:
LINK >>
John Nadler, really? MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It would seem that enough people in Texas find Ron Paul relevant enough to elect him for public office (multiple times).
And any claims that he is irrelevent are obviously ignorant of that fact.
As for the gold ... I find it totally bizarre that there exist some ordinary folks who wouldn't want an audit of gold reserves to be undertaken.
That gold belongs to us. I would want to know if it were embezzeld or otherwise fraudulently lent or sold out. And the cost of
such an audit would be a mere pittance compared to other government expenditures. The more they try and block such an audit, the more
it is warranted.
<< <i>A lot of strange replies here.
It would seem that enough people in Texas find Ron Paul relevant enough to elect him for public office (multiple times).
And any claims that he is irrelevent are obviously ignorant of that fact.
As for the gold ... I find it totally bizarre that there exist some ordinary folks who wouldn't want an audit of gold reserves to be undertaken.
That gold belongs to us. I would want to know if it were embezzeld or otherwise fraudulently lent or sold out. And the cost of
such an audit would be a mere pittance compared to other government expenditures. The more they try and block such an audit, the more
it is warranted. >>
If there was an independant audit done and verified, I would be very afraid of the reprecussions by the American public when & if the gold was found to be non-existant or otherwise unaccounted for. It seems to me that this whole house of cards is teetering on collapse
and that would surely be the card to bring it all crashing down.
I hate to even type this up, but I think America and the world is better off being ignorant of just what exactly is (or is not)
sitting in the Fort Knox vault at the moment.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
<< <i>
<< <i>A lot of strange replies here.
It would seem that enough people in Texas find Ron Paul relevant enough to elect him for public office (multiple times).
And any claims that he is irrelevent are obviously ignorant of that fact.
As for the gold ... I find it totally bizarre that there exist some ordinary folks who wouldn't want an audit of gold reserves to be undertaken.
That gold belongs to us. I would want to know if it were embezzeld or otherwise fraudulently lent or sold out. And the cost of
such an audit would be a mere pittance compared to other government expenditures. The more they try and block such an audit, the more
it is warranted. >>
If there was an independant audit done and verified, I would be very afraid of the reprecussions by the American public when & if the gold was found to be non-existant or otherwise unaccounted for. It seems to me that this whole house of cards is teetering on collapse
and that would surely be the card to bring it all crashing down.
I hate to even type this up, but I think America and the world is better off being ignorant of just what exactly is (or is not)
sitting in the Fort Knox vault at the moment. >>
Meltdown... while I grasp your meaning... and intent... I can't help but see an image from some horror movie... with a monster breathing in front of a potential victim's face and that person has their eye's tightly shut... praying that whatever it is will just go away...
...and as we know from the movies
As MJ has already hinted at, John Nadler is hardly the one to be doing an analysis about anything to do with gold. He's about the biggest anti-gold analyst in the field today...second only to ther Secretary of the Treasury.
Reading Nadler is a waste of time and money. He's been predicting $600 gold since summer of 2007 when he advised all his readers to wait for the big correction. That's hardly a track record worthy of any gold analyst. At least he's got the "anal" part right. For every point Nadler makes, there is an equivalent counterpoint that could be made. I broke my vow made a year go never to read him again but I gave in and started in on this article. His analysis was so flawed I stopped reading. He blames the multitude of reccessions from the end of the Civil war through WW1 as the fault of the gold standard, never realizing that the greenback's horrendous affects lasted for 15 years following the Civil War. Many if not most of the panics and recessions of the 19th century happened because bankers cheated on the gold standard and printed money that wasn't backed, and lots of it. It's the cheating on the gold standard that has been the problem all along, not the standard itself. And I'd be the first one to admit that our current financial crisis still would have occurred even with a gold standard. The bankers effectively found a way to maneuver around the current monetary system while creating their own credit/derivatives-based monetary system. Having any standard in effect is not worth anything if financial/govt/corporate entities can cheat on it w/o consequence and then pin the losses on the citizens/taxpayers. It's not the standards that have failed us, they have always been there...it's the greed, cheating, and lack of enforcement....which have always been there. It's not that a gold standard couldn't work and be effective...but more that it's only a matter of time before someone cheats on it. And I have no answer for a monetary system where govt's won't cheat on it at the expense of their citizens.
The gold standard was openly cheated on by govts from 1913 to 1933. And then too from 1934-1971. Once the FED took over there has never been a true gold standard in effect. You could probably stay we never had a true gold standard in effect as there are always bankers cheating on the system somewhere. But what we did once have was better than a pure credit system backed by shadow derivatives totaling $1.1 QUAD. If the hard money system of the second half of the 19th century was so horrible how does one explain the monstrous industrial growth that occurred that lured millions of immigrants to this country looking for a piece of that pie? That kind of growth has probably never been duplicated except possibly briefly during WW2 and a short time thereafter....and certainly not since the gold window was closed in August 1971 where we've basically been running on fumes ever since.
Every couple of years Nadler gets a big pull back right...just like a broken clock would. Every rally eventually has to pull back. Impeccable timing by Mr. Nadler who came out with his "analysis" in Feb 2010 just after gold was bottoming hard at $1044....no doubt he was looking forward to sub $1000 and sub $900 which never came. At some point I have to question the analysis of a perma-bear or a perma-bull since they will distort their reasoning to achieve the desired result. I try not to read either as they only cloud the issue rather than bring in clarity.
roadrunner
The turn-the-question around statement is "Who would gain by subverting the army (who guards Ft. Knox), the Treasury (who monitor the gold - I believe) and the American people (who I think own it)?" Who would gain? Only the conspiracy people, who I guess want us all to believe that the Government is not made up of good American people, but closet commies, or something worse.
So, I guess I'm saying the Libertarians, like Ron Paul secretly WANT it to be missing.
Now who's to say we didn't transfer ownership of that gold to someone else but are still keeping in in storage for them at any of the US gold depositories? I'd go as far as to say that it's nearly impossible that the US govt didn't lease or swap some of those 8100 tons over the past 29 yrs such that we now legally own <8000 tons. While possession might be nine tenths of the law in many jurisdictions, if we swapped out some of our coin gold or good delivery bars to the Bundesbank over the years, you can bet that we're on the hook for delivering it to them someday. The central banks refuse to open their gold books and probably for good reason. Gold flows have been a tightly kept secret by the banks since the London Gold Pool of the 1960's. The authorized double counting of gold is just one way to keep outsiders from identifying gold flows, which in my mind are the ultimate in money transference. The final chapter in central bank deep gold storage has yet to written. And I'll bet it will be a doozy once all the facts are eventually known.
roadrunner
They seemed to appreciate it. They do not want to go to Fort Knox.
<< <i>I just went to my SDB, pulled out the handful of gold coins I own, and gave them all a big hug.
They seemed to appreciate it. They do not want to go to Fort Knox. >>
I'm sure they're much safer with someone who cares about them than at Ft Knox or other government depository.
Getting back to the question at hand......
I'm not sure how the desire for an honest accounting of the gold in Ft. Knox translates to a secret desire for anything. The government insists on an accurate accounting of the money I make in a year, and that is a considerably smaller number than the value of the gold in gov't hands.
I don't understand how there is a problem in such a simple request.
I knew it would happen.