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What would you do?
MLRMLEO
Posts: 269
As a collector I have also been on the selling side of the table a few times. Most recently at the Chantilly show in early March of this year. In one of my cases was a 1968 Ryan Rookie psa 8 (nice one well centered) that i purchased on Ebay5-6 years ago. Being that I might do 1 show a year this cards get seen by the public 5-6 times since I have owned it. Lots of interest in the card every show with several dealers looking at it wondering if it would bump up. Had offers but none at the price I was trying to get for it. Since the market had soften some on the 68s and my customer offered me about what I paid figured sell and move on. (Now it gets good) So at the National this year my customer takes the card to PSA trying to get the bump and they tell him the case has been tamped with the card inside looks suspicious, they take pictures of the card in the holder then crack it out and tell him the card has been altered the case had been cracked and more than likely the card had been switched. I talk to PSA they tell me it is a problem that has happened before where people are able to crack cases switch cards and glue them back so you cant tell. So now the buyer wants full refund on the card, giving me the card back(OF course with out holder PSA confiscated that) Not one dealer over the years that looked at the card noticed any problem Including myself Yet the buyer seems like an honest guy. What would you do?
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this is the kinda stuff you cant make up...
dont know what I would do...
I would question why he "let" PSA keep the holder...
it is not their property...
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This could actually involve some legal advice from an attorney.
My advice would be to get the pictures from PSA and if the holder tampering is obvious then your customer did it and then get legal advice.
You'll have to refund his $, and PSA won't do anything for you in terms of compensation, and of course they shouldn't cuz it's an altered slab
I'm wondering how PSA knew with absolute certainty that the slab was tampered with, especially if no one else noticed anything strange with it over the years? We've seen real slabs that are a little frosty or have marks on the edge, doesn't always indicate tampering. PSA had to be pretty damn certain to ruin someone's $1000. What if they cracked the slab and found the card was a genuine, unaltered 8?
I would say if you know the buyer and believe him to be honest, a refund is in order.
sorry, this happened to you.
The buyer could have switched the card.
The buyer also assumed the risk of the bump. Every time you bring a card to PSA for review the owner risks this sort of thing.
A refund is up to you, but you are not legally obligated to give him the money back.
Patrick
<< <i>PSA claimed it was a problem they had seen before , and yes the card was real they said it looked like it had been altered, and they supposedly new their was a problem before they took the card out. wish I could find a quick way to post pic might take a bit. Also card was purchased by me on the Bay about 5-6 years ago out of Texas I believe. I dont think EBAY has records kept that last that long. (could be wrong let me know if true). Case looked normal to everyone that saw it. >>
Check your paypal records, maybe they go back that far?
<< <i>What if they cracked the slab and found the card was a genuine, unaltered 8? >>
My guess is that they would re slab it. Using the same cert.
If you meant "what if they ruined it" Then they would have to pay.
Not sure what I'd do in this situation.
Too much time has elapsed from when it was bought, all I can say is, sorry that this happened to you.
Hopefully someone may chime in that has had this happen to them and can give you some advice.
Steve
I just don't like the fact that no one noticed this after many looks and PSA was absolutely sure and cracked the card out. Also, if folks were looking at this cards' bump potential---they were looking fairly hard.
If people can crack out high dollar cards and make the holder look perfect we are all in trouble.
Do you have receipt of the original purchase when you bought it...it's probably a PAYPAL purchase. They might be able to help out because in that case you were the buyer.
Proceed with caution. Until you gather all of the facts and do your homework you should not refund anything.
Mickey71
<< <i>find a quick way to post pic might take a bit. >>
Leo
If you have a photobucket account you can upload it there and then copy and paste the url here in the message area.
If you do not have one they are free.
Steve
<< <i>Legally you do not have to refund the money.
The buyer could have switched the card.
The buyer also assumed the risk of the bump. Every time you bring a card to PSA for review the owner risks this sort of thing.
A refund is up to you, but you are not legally obligated to give him the money back.
Patrick >>
Since when did you garner a law degree...
Speaking in such specifics without FACTUAL knowledge is dangerous.
In many states, this would be fraud REGARDLESS of whether the seller knew the item was tampered with or not. Accordingly, such blanket statements are foolish and misleading.
The seller would be best served to speak with legal council to determine his rights and obligations to the buyer in the matter rather than relying on the free legal advice of an uninformed message board poster.
<< <i>
<< <i>Legally you do not have to refund the money.
The buyer could have switched the card.
The buyer also assumed the risk of the bump. Every time you bring a card to PSA for review the owner risks this sort of thing.
A refund is up to you, but you are not legally obligated to give him the money back.
Patrick >>
Since when did you garner a law degree...
Speaking in such specifics without FACTUAL knowledge is dangerous.
In many states, this would be fraud REGARDLESS of whether the seller knew the item was tampered with or not. Accordingly, such blanket statements are foolish and misleading.
The seller would be best served to speak with legal council to determine his rights and obligations to the buyer in the matter rather than relying on the free legal advice of an uninformed message board poster. >>
I don't have a law degree, but have two sisters and three brother-in-laws who do. I've been around this stuff too much.
There was an implied warranty of authenticity when the OP
sold the card. That warranty appears to have been met by
the OP. There was no warranty by the OP of the validity of
PSA's grade.
Liability for the fact that the card is "altered" - whether PSA
missed it the first time OR the card was switched after being
graded - falls on the OP as the seller of the altered card.
PSA is not liable for the misuse/abuse of their product; though
the slabs are not as "secure" as they could be.
As disgusting as it is, the OP is liable for the refund, IF there is no
valid defense that the buyer himself tampered the case and switched
the card BEFORE he submitted the slab to PSA for a possible bump.
..........................
It is almost never possible to pass a glued slab onto a sophisticated
buyer. A slab with a defective seal can sometimes be opened with
lateral pressure and a cautious thumbnail; it can then be resealed
without glue and with no trace of tampering.
<< <i>PSA claimed it was a problem they had seen before , and yes the card was real they said it looked like it had been altered, and they supposedly new their was a problem before they took the card out. wish I could find a quick way to post pic might take a bit. Also card was purchased by me on the Bay about 5-6 years ago out of Texas I believe. I dont think EBAY has records kept that last that long. (could be wrong let me know if true). Case looked normal to everyone that saw it. >>
open a photobucket acct upload to photobucket and the link it from photobucket using that little thing that looks like a photo on the tab above. if not email me a pic and I will post it for you also turn on your (private message) PM and I will send you my email addy or just check my sunglasses out.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Legally you do not have to refund the money.
The buyer could have switched the card.
The buyer also assumed the risk of the bump. Every time you bring a card to PSA for review the owner risks this sort of thing.
A refund is up to you, but you are not legally obligated to give him the money back.
Patrick >>
Since when did you garner a law degree...
Speaking in such specifics without FACTUAL knowledge is dangerous.
In many states, this would be fraud REGARDLESS of whether the seller knew the item was tampered with or not. Accordingly, such blanket statements are foolish and misleading.
The seller would be best served to speak with legal council to determine his rights and obligations to the buyer in the matter rather than relying on the free legal advice of an uninformed message board poster. >>
I don't have a law degree, but have two sisters and three brother-in-laws who do. I've been around this stuff too much. >>
So that qualifies you to give legal advise that may, in fact, be incorrect and leave the seller at risk of legal action? My cousin is a cardiac surgeon, but that doesn't mean I can perform open heart surgery!
Sometimes, it is best to remain silent and be thought the fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Legally you do not have to refund the money.
The buyer could have switched the card.
The buyer also assumed the risk of the bump. Every time you bring a card to PSA for review the owner risks this sort of thing.
A refund is up to you, but you are not legally obligated to give him the money back.
Patrick >>
Since when did you garner a law degree...
Speaking in such specifics without FACTUAL knowledge is dangerous.
In many states, this would be fraud REGARDLESS of whether the seller knew the item was tampered with or not. Accordingly, such blanket statements are foolish and misleading.
The seller would be best served to speak with legal council to determine his rights and obligations to the buyer in the matter rather than relying on the free legal advice of an uninformed message board poster. >>
I don't have a law degree, but have two sisters and three brother-in-laws who do. I've been around this stuff too much. >>
So that qualifies you to give legal advise that may, in fact, be incorrect and leave the seller at risk of legal action? My cousin is a cardiac surgeon, but that doesn't mean I can perform open heart surgery!
Sometimes, it is best to remain silent and be thought the fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt! >>
lighten up man, legally he doesn't have to issue the refund, despite what many posters here have said. The buyer purchased a PSA 8 and it was a PSA 8 until he decided to take a gamble on his purchase and resubmit the card.
What's the harm if he followed the advice of not refunding the money? What's the harm if you performed open heart surgey? Big difference.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Legally you do not have to refund the money.
The buyer could have switched the card.
The buyer also assumed the risk of the bump. Every time you bring a card to PSA for review the owner risks this sort of thing.
A refund is up to you, but you are not legally obligated to give him the money back.
Patrick >>
Since when did you garner a law degree...
Speaking in such specifics without FACTUAL knowledge is dangerous.
In many states, this would be fraud REGARDLESS of whether the seller knew the item was tampered with or not. Accordingly, such blanket statements are foolish and misleading.
The seller would be best served to speak with legal council to determine his rights and obligations to the buyer in the matter rather than relying on the free legal advice of an uninformed message board poster. >>
I don't have a law degree, but have two sisters and three brother-in-laws who do. I've been around this stuff too much. >>
So that qualifies you to give legal advise that may, in fact, be incorrect and leave the seller at risk of legal action? My cousin is a cardiac surgeon, but that doesn't mean I can perform open heart surgery!
Sometimes, it is best to remain silent and be thought the fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt! >>
lighten up man, legally he doesn't have to issue the refund, despite what many posters here have said. The buyer purchased a PSA 8 and it was a PSA 8 until he decided to take a gamble on his purchase and resubmit the card.
What's the harm if he followed the advice of not refunding the money? What's the harm if you performed open heart surgey? Big difference. >>
I guess you weren't invited to the MENSA meeting again...
Given both scenarios, there is the possibility of being sued. The seller, potentially, for fraud and me, potentially, for practicing medicine without a license. Just like you are playing lawyer without knowing the law.
I give up, though. You obviously have all the answers . . . even if they are WRONG!
<< <i>This would be more of a civil matter than criminal. In most states to prove fraud you have to prove intent as well beyond any doubt. >>
True. The point being, such a blanket statement made by Patrick could put the seller at risk. Depending upon the state, the seller may be at risk as he may have an obligation to make the buyer whole and should not just ignore the situation.
<< <i>
<< <i>. >>
such a blanket statement >>
it's called common sense...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>. >>
such a blanket statement >>
it's called common sense... >>
Great! When you get some, please let us know. Until then, try speaking in specifics about only things you know for fact...
End of conversation!
"..."What's the harm if he followed the advice of not refunding the money?..."
////////////////////////
If the buyer is not a crook, the "harm" could be:
1. A damaged reputation as a seller.
2. A small-claims action to recover the purchase price.
3. A fraud allegation filed with a LEO.
...............
The time lag seems somewhat compelling at first glance,
but it really is not.
Many collectors toss items in a safe and don't look at them
again for years.
The "fraud" element does not come into play until it is discovered.
The SOL then starts ticking; years after the sale of expensive
collectibles, an aggressive/sophisticated buyer still has recourse if
he can convince a judge that he was cheated AND discovered the
fraud much later.
..........
As I noted, if there is some "valid" notion that the complaining
buyer switched the card it is a defense, but the burden is on
the OP to prove that theory. That would be tough to do in the
instant circumstance.
Tough deal. It is getting harder and harder to be seller.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>The buyer purchased a PSA 8 and it was a PSA 8 until he decided to take a gamble on his purchase and resubmit the card. >>
Patrick you don't really believe that do you? It was never a PSA 8 since when taken to be reviewed/bumped it was found to be altered.
It was only a PSA 8 in theory, and only during the time Leo had it.
Leo your PM's are not turned on btw.
Steve
No different than that guy the other day who sold a trimmed card, and claims he knew nothing about it. But of course he also claims he chose not to send it to PSA, despite it being of the biggest names in the sport and appearing to be a sharp card....
Of course if he is pulling a fast one then it had been a PSA 8 all along.
Steve
<< <i>I think the real question is not whether you have to refund the seller, but rather should you refund him. The fact that the card left the seller's possession, and for several months at that, would make it difficult for the buyer to bring an a successful allegation of fraud/contract breach against the seller. The first question/defense from the seller would concern whether the buyer altered the card - which is certainly a possibility as someone apparently did. Personally, I don't think that the buyer did it, but I also would not refund the money without a lot more facts, discussion with PSA, and certainly the card as well. The real problem I see here for the seller is that AFTER the sale there were a lot of decisions and events that took place w/o his input that he is now being asked to own/be stuck with. If I'm going to have to eat some loss or costs I want to at least be able to have had some control over the situation. Depending on the facts, I would offer to split it with the buyer and/or ask PSA for some help too in the resolution (vouchers maybe for both parties - this episode isn't good for them either). Good luck. >>
I like this solution best, especially if the buyer is reasonable and has as much faith in you as you do in him.
Although you as the seller are ultimately responsible for the slab, the buyer also has to know that if you chose to be a hard*ss about this, it could cost him more in time, headaches and legal costs than the card is worth.
I don't see PSA issuing vouchers here, though.
Whoever wants any legal advice I will give it for free...I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
Scott, do you need any legal advice?
<< <i>
<< <i>I think the real question is not whether you have to refund the seller, but rather should you refund him. The fact that the card left the seller's possession, and for several months at that, would make it difficult for the buyer to bring an a successful allegation of fraud/contract breach against the seller. The first question/defense from the seller would concern whether the buyer altered the card - which is certainly a possibility as someone apparently did. Personally, I don't think that the buyer did it, but I also would not refund the money without a lot more facts, discussion with PSA, and certainly the card as well. The real problem I see here for the seller is that AFTER the sale there were a lot of decisions and events that took place w/o his input that he is now being asked to own/be stuck with. If I'm going to have to eat some loss or costs I want to at least be able to have had some control over the situation. Depending on the facts, I would offer to split it with the buyer and/or ask PSA for some help too in the resolution (vouchers maybe for both parties - this episode isn't good for them either). Good luck. >>
I like this solution best, especially if the buyer is reasonable and has as much faith in you as you do in him.
Although you as the seller are ultimately responsible for the slab, the buyer also has to know that if you chose to be a hard*ss about this, it could cost him more in time, headaches and legal costs than the card is worth.
I don't see PSA issuing vouchers here, though. >>
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
1. PSA has ZERO liability here.
2. An implied warranty on a collectible can be "forever."
3. The OP's buyer has NO further obligation to the OP.
Expecting him to "share" the damages is an optimistic
stretch. He was under no obligation to tell the OP what
action he was going to take with the card or when he
was going to take such action.
4. The person who harmed the OP was the EBAYer who
sold the OP the altered card; UNLESS, the current buyer
did a switcheroo. In theory, the OP could chase the EBAY
seller.
5. "Time and headaches" are slight in Small Claims, assuming
the OP sold the card to a buyer in the OP's home state.
WE have NO way to know if the buyer switched the card.
My best WAG is that the EBAYer switched the card or
knew it was bad when he sold it to the OP.
There is close to ZERO way to prove the OP's buyer was
the switcher. IF the OP has a history of being a scammer,
the judge might be convinced. Otherwise, NO WAY.
...............
If the card is returned to the OP, getting it back into a PSA
slab - at some point - may not be impossible.
There are other TPGs that might also slab it.
Thus, the card may have some future "value."
...........
Some folks are easy to burn. They just give up and move
on. Others are MUCH more difficult.
If the complaining buyer is a bulldog, it may be MUCH easier
for the OP to simply refund the money.
<< <i>This would be more of a civil matter than criminal. In most states to prove fraud you have to prove intent as well beyond any doubt. >>
Yep. If taken to small claims court, the buyer would have a slim chance to win.
To the OP..Do not give the buyer a refund. He took the risk and was only trying to make a fast buck. And no way to know if he switched or altered the card himself
If the buyer did indeed do nothing wrong, he could file a case against PSA with the better business bureau.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>Ah, When It Was A Game........... >>
It still sort of is....just a crappy game. Like Monopoly travel...it's not like the original.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Ah, When It Was A Game........... >>
My thoughts exactly.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
The standard of proof in Small Claims is "preponderance of evidence."
That means "more likely than not." It is an ever so slight burden;
51/49 wins.
The amount of time that passed between the sale and the claim -
provided the SOL is met - is NEVER dispositive on its own, but
may be cumulative to disposition.
Raising the notion that the OP's buyer switched the card is fun,
but the judge wants the OP to "prove it." That the buyer "might"
have switched the card, is no proof at all.
Nobody knows for sure what will happen in ANY court proceeding,
unless the judge is a crook. BUT, in the instant case, my money
would be on the buyer; and, it's not even a close call.
Mickey71