Oh mommy, this coin is gorgeous!
coinpictures
Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭
I'll never even hold it, let alone own it, but DAMN!
From the upcoming Heritage Signature Auction.
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From the upcoming Heritage Signature Auction.
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Comments
siliconvalleycoins.com
U.S. Type Set
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>What's the point of sending a coin like that to CAC? >>
Cover the Pedigree
<< <i>
<< <i>What's the point of sending a coin like that to CAC? >>
Cover the Pedigree
I noticed that.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It is PQ for the MS66 grade.
Other MS66 examples of this coin simply do not measure up to this one
not only is it magnificent -
it has to be one of the truly most alluring coins of our country's history .......
it's just fantastic to look at and must be like a religious experience to hold it
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
The name is LEE!
...OK, I've picked myself up off the floor now.
Umm, yes, that's pretty nice.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
AB
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
<< <i>What is this?
that is a "cud" , have you , a master Ike collector, never seen a "cud" ?
<< <i>Damn it is nice looking, but is it posible that it is too nice? Like the perfect storm...phenom coin/phenom color hmmm, one would expect these not to be gorgeously toned or am I wrong about this? >>
i think it is possible it's too good to be true ........... but , (and this is something we all have to get used too if we want to maintain sanity)
......it is in a PCGS holder , and therefor there is nothing to worry about
<< <i>Damn it is nice looking, but is it posible that it is too nice? Like the perfect storm...phenom coin/phenom color hmmm, one would expect these not to be gorgeously toned or am I wrong about this? >>
Amazing, wonderfully toned, high grade, VERY OLD coins do exist. They are just rare. (And by "rare", I don't mean 484,000 pieces in existance. I mean something like less than 20.)
Now, has this coin been cleaned and allowed to re-tone at some point (or at many points) in it's history? Probably.
Does that matter on a coin like this? Well, it matters some to me because if I owned it, I would like to be able to say that I knew for certain that it was completely original.
Does that mean I would not have the coin in my collection? No. I would be proud to own it!
Camelot
when men were men and coins were pressed by hand
<< <i>I have to admit, it disappoints me that some professional went out of his way to enhance it in order to jump the value. I try to avoid cleaned and retoned coins and desire originality, so as hard as it is to resist its beauty and yes the professional did a great job with it, it is a work of art, I would have to pass on this coin., that is if i could afford it
Hey, maybe it's album toning.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
What does a grade of MS66 really mean for this coin?
Same question for a 2500 year old ancient silver coin found in an archaelogical dig that is slabbed with a grade of MS66?
What about the coin that is a huge round stone with a hole in it sitting on a Pacific Island or "wampum". Can/should they be graded 1-70? [Imagine the size of the slab that the round stone with a hole in it would be placed in].
Am I to view these early "coins" in the same manner as an MS66 1957 Lincoln Cent?
I can not quite get my thoughts around this concept of applying the 1-70 grading scale to any and all objects which are considered to be "coins".
Your thoughts please.
<< <i>It is a very nice coin. Is there any way to tell what year it was made? When did they stop making 1652 coins? >>
According to Louis Jordan and the University of Notre Dame Department of Special Collections website:
<< <i>During the Oak Tree period a new twopence coin was minted with the date 1662. This is the only Massachusetts silver to have a date differing from 1652. In the past it had been assumed that the date on Massachusetts silver was suppose to represent the same thing the date represents on present day coinage, namely the year of minting. Based on that presupposition several theories were put forward for the continual use of 1652 over the thirty year life of the mint. However, as is now thought, it appears the twopence was first authorized in 1662 and thus carried that date, while the shilling, sixpence and threepence had all been authorized by the act of 1652 and thus always carried their date of authorization.
If the twopence coin, which is only found in the Oak Tree series, was authorized at the time the Oak series was initiated then we could date the start of the Oak series to 1662. However, the legislation of May 7, 1662, enacting the twopence coin (see Crosby, pp, 73-74) is rather brief and does not mention a new series nor does it refer to any other coins. It simply states that for the first year of production half of the mint's silver would be used for the new twopence, hence fifty pounds of twopence would be minted for every one hundred pounds coined. Then, for the next six years, production would drop to one fifth of the silver inventory, twenty pounds of twopence for every one hundred pounds of silver coined. As rocker dies were very difficult to make, there was only one set made for the twopence but they were recut on six occasions to keep the image sharp. >>
A LOT more information about early Massachusetts silver can be found on his website, beginning here.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Very nice historical piece, and agreed it is somewhat of an anomaly to have it in any pro-graded slab. Not that I'm going all dorkkarl here, but there's not a super compelling reason to have it in a slab, vs. say, in a custom Capital Plastics holder, with a bit of the history of it in custom lettering below. Really (could I afford it) I'd crack it and have a custom holder made, if only to eliminate the taint of the pedigree.
I would think there are many counterfeits of such coins
Boldly Struck 1652 Willow Tree Shilling, Noe 3-E, VF35
The Discovery Coin for the Willow Tree Type
Noe Census #22; Plated in Noe
1652 SHILNG Willow Tree Shilling VF35 PCGS. CAC. Ex: Ford-Manley. Noe 3-E, R.7. 69.45 grains. This variety is extremely rare with only a handful of examples known to collectors. Michael Hodder (2005) writes that he has seen just eight Noe 3-E specimens. As a type, the Willow Tree shillings are rarer than their NE, Oak Tree, and Pine Tree counterparts.
The obverse of Noe 3-E is identified by the absence of punctuation after the N, while the reverse has the diagnostic punctuation mark between AN and DOM. There are six varieties of Willow Tree shillings known, which is a surprising number given the rarity of these pieces. Hodder suggests that the shillings were struck at two different times and groups the varieties into two families. Lou Jordan expounded on a theory first presented by Crosby when he writes, "The coins we designate as the Willow Tree series appear in many ways to be experimental. The scarcity of the coins suggests they were only minted for a brief period."
This piece has a special significance to numismatists as the discovery coin for the Willow Tree type. Sydney P. Noe (1943) gives an account of this important find: "About 1865, Mr. Woodward began to notice peculiarities in what had been considered Oak Tree shillings until then, and we find in his Sixth Sale (item 2524) the following description: 'Oak Tree Shilling, 1652. The tree on this remarkable piece is quite unlike an oak, resembling more nearly a Palmetto tree. The legend on the obverse, is "Masathset inn;" on the rev. New Glad Au Do Dom; probably unique.' " Joseph J. Mickley called the tree a willow, and after his collection was sold two years later the name stuck.
On October 19, 1652 the Massachusetts General Court passed legislation that changed the design of the coins from the NE type to the more detailed Willow Tree type. A press and dies still had to be procured so production of the Willow Tree coins might not have begun until 1654. Correspondence from that year between Joseph Jenks, who worked at the nearby Hammersmith Ironworks, and John Hull's brother, Edward, reveal efforts to bring a diesinker from England to Massachusetts. Some speculate that Jenks may have even engraved some of the dies for the Massachusetts Mint.
The first coining press installed at the Massachusetts Mint was most likely a rocker press, which employed curved obverse and reverse dies. A strip of metal was fed between the two dies and the machine was cranked by hand. An impressed coin was then cut from the strip of metal. It is understandable that this rather crude method produced coins with weakly defined details and misshapen planchets.
The present coin actually shows excellent detail for a Willow Tree shilling. The tree is only a trifle soft and many of the letters are boldly impressed. The scrambled letters in the legends indicate that this piece was fed through the rocker press twice, hence the DODOM (instead of DOM) on the reverse and the date that reads 16522. The flan has a somewhat oval shape, a byproduct of the way the coin was cut from the metal strip after it was struck. The fields have attractive silver-gray patina, which contrasts nicely against the lighter toning on the high points. The surfaces are remarkably clean; the Ford cataloger notes that the light marks on the obverse and reverse were made during the minting process, not sometime later. Noe numbered this specimen 22 in his census, and it is on Plate VI.
This piece is not only an attractive example of an extremely rare variety, but it is also the very coin that enlightened collectors to the existence of the Willow Tree series. Its provenance, which stretches back nearly 150 years, sets this specimen apart from all others.
Listed on page 36 of the 2011 Guide Book.
Ex: Bache Collection (William E. Woodward, 3/1865), lot 2524; George J. Bauer; T. James Clarke;F. C. C. Boyd; John J. Ford, Jr. (Stack's, 10/2005), lot 9.
From Dwight Manley's NE Silver Collection.
Rainbow toning on a colonial coin? I've only got one thing to say:
Hmmm....
I thought you meant no need to have it in a slab in the first place .
<< <i>All things considered, I'd rather have this one:<snip> >>
I'm with you.
Lance.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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had to ttt this one too!
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That is a WOW coin.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
Thanks for bringing this one back.... Truly a treasure.... Cheers, RickO
Is it a cud? Not certain. Weren't these pieces rolled with a curved die?
Might that be the end of the strip of silver?
Not disagreeing, by the way, but could it be something else?
Pretty coin, but I can't see anyone actually being desirous of it, as there are no autographs on the holder. Nary a one.
EC
Has anyone actually seen this coin in person? I'm curious if the toning is really as colorful as imaged.
I just think its cool that the avatar for banned users is "User Banned Please Carry On"
Latin American Collection
Good thing it has a green bean otherwise I'd be on the fence about it.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Awesome coin! I bet Boston1630 will like this thread!
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I'm fine with applying the Sheldon scale back 400-2000 years or more. But, that's only if the same standards for a MS66 1957 Lincoln cent are applied to the Oak Tree and to Roman silver. I've never understood why it's important to now grade older coins "on the curve" so that the best of any series can reach the 66 to 68 grades....even if between different series and eras, those grades are not comparable.