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Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect...

MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real?
Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

Comments

  • IGWTIGWT Posts: 4,975
    I'd accept it if I were due 4 cents in change.
  • GoldenEyeNumismaticsGoldenEyeNumismatics Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭
    Well, the first thing I'd do is stop buying from any stores that aren't running national campaigns to destroy all 2010 nickels. image

    Clearly, that's the only logical answer. Everyone else is probably running nickel racketeering scams.
  • fcloudfcloud Posts: 12,133 ✭✭✭✭
    Reminds me of a story about a 1944 no mint mark nickel; it kind of has the same theme.

    President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is all just a dream
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • Absolutely. If I received it as change that was legally due to me, I will spend it as change legally due to me.

    Now... if I KNEW it was counterfeit, thats a different story... but if its so good no one can decifer between the two, and is being passed as such, so be it. 5c isnt worth sorting through all my change to not accept it.
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    moot point. can't tell, then how would you even have a clue? Perfect is perfect.
    bob
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real? >>




    I believe we are already doing that with our paper money.
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real? >>

    If that was a problem, you'd imagine the Federal government would come up with anti-counterfeit measures, like they do with bills.
  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭
    Sure, less cost for our Mint. Let the counterfeiters go through the expense to manufacture the nickel.
    Chat Board Lingo

    "Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
  • In that scenario, I don't see it as much different than getting a Canadian quarter in change, then turning around and spending it somewhere else. I'll accept it, as long as there's a pretty good chance someone else will too.


    Heck, anymore it's hard enough for the mint to produce coins "perfect" enough to pass for real.image
  • TWQGTWQG Posts: 3,145 ✭✭
    Depends on whether I paid $40 on the BST for it or not.
  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500
    metal composition would be 7cents plus


    sounds like a governmental business plan
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,410 ✭✭✭✭✭
    no i dont think so. maybe if the composition was right.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How could I be sure it is not real, if, according to your premise, it is so perfect no one can determine originality? Your premise and question do not complement each other. Cheers, RickO
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are counterfeit Sackie bucks currently circulating in Ecuador, a dollarised economy. The counterfeits are likely produced in Colombia and then sold into Ecuador. You can detect the counterfeits if you look closely at the details in the eyes of Sackie and her baby. The serifs on some of the lettres are just a bit off too.
    In memory of my kitty Seryozha 14.2.1996 ~ 13.9.2016 and Shadow 3.4.2015 - 16.4.21
  • notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭
    We know there are counterfeit 20's in circulation. Do you accept $20 bills?

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real? >>



    I can't answer your question since your premise is just plain silly.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • ManorcourtmanManorcourtman Posts: 7,891 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real? >>



    I can't answer your question since your premise is just plain silly. >>



    image
  • Ed62Ed62 Posts: 857 ✭✭
    They would add to the money supply in circulation: PV = MT.
    Inflation is on the way !!
    Ed
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>We know there are counterfeit 20's in circulation. Do you accept $20 bills? >>



    Arn't there also a couple of million $100's from N. Korea too?
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>We know there are counterfeit 20's in circulation. Do you accept $20 bills? >>



    Good point.

    Actually,


    Excellent point!
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • ARCOARCO Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real? >>



    Even if there were 50 million in circulation, that totals a staggering $2.5 million in counterfeit nickels, so much money that it is probably equivalent to replacing the granite countertops...and probably a few toilet seats... in the Men's room at the Congress building in D.C.

    If any person is confliced by the moral dilemna of passing an undetectable counterfeit that won't even buy a sugar gumball from gumball machine (you need a quarter nowadays), they probably have the perfect life. Most of the rest of us are worrying about the things that actually matter; oil spills in the gulf, goverment deficits in the trillions, global warming / cooling, high unemployment, etc etc etc.

    Even if I KNEW it were counterfeit, I would pass it because, well, it is a friggin' nickel that isn't even worth the hassle of picking up off the street. image
  • "In that scenario, I don't see it as much different than getting a Canadian quarter in change, then turning around and spending it somewhere else. I'll accept it, as long as there's a pretty good chance someone else will too."

    Yeah, 'cause that (current) 1 cent (4.3886%) hit would be disasterous: Live rates at 2010.08.20 23:51:00 UTC, 1.00 CAD = 0.956114 USD image
  • << Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real? >>

    I just replaced "counterfeit 2010 Jefferson nickels" with "artificially toned coin" and "spend" with sell. The question becomes very interesting.

    Eric
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It nobody can determine the coin to be a counterfeit...then is it a counterfeit?

    If a coin falls in the woods and there is nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound?

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It nobody can determine the coin to be a counterfeit...then is it a counterfeit? >>



    Yes. If it isn't made by the U.S. Mint, it's counterfeit.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>It nobody can determine the coin to be a counterfeit...then is it a counterfeit? >>



    Yes. If it isn't made by the U.S. Mint, it's counterfeit. >>



    Yeah...but if you cannot determine it's a counterfeit then how will you know it was not made at the US Mint?

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Amazing.... the undebatable is still being debated. Cheers, RickO
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Amazing.... the undebatable is still being debated. Cheers, RickO >>



    image

    Yeah...but it's still early Saturday morning and I just saw the thread!
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • Is it made of ..Wood..?!?!?.........image
    ......Larry........image
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If a tree falls in the forest, and everybody is watching a baseball game so that there is nobody around to watch it fall, does it fall to the right, or the left???

    image
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • morgansforevermorgansforever Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭✭✭
    <<Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real?>>

    "If I can produce something so correctly, so perfect that the experts
    declare it to be genuine, then for all practical purposes it is genuine.
    There is no fraud involved when I sell it."
    - Convicted master forger Mark Hofmann

    Sounds very similar, did you just finish reading Numismatic Forgery?
    One of Hofmann's creations. Bob Campbell past- President of the ANA examined the coin.
    "The fabic was there, it was machine struck with exacting pre-1962 alloy, but it just didn't feel right."
    "More like a gut feeling." I agree with him, besides were are the other examples?
    How could one 59D wheatie be struck at the Mint?
    Sure would love to own it. Anyone have any idea where this piece is?

    image
    World coins FSHO Hundreds of successful BST transactions U.S. coins FSHO
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i><<Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real?>>

    "If I can produce something so correctly, so perfect that the experts
    declare it to be genuine, then for all practical purposes it is genuine.
    There is no fraud involved when I sell it."
    - Convicted master forger Mark Hofmann

    Sounds very similar, did you just finish reading Numismatic Forgery?
    One of Hofmann's creations. Bob Campbell past- President of the ANA examined the coin.
    "The fabic was there, it was machine struck with exacting pre-1962 alloy, but it just didn't feel right."
    "More like a gut feeling." I agree with him, besides were are the other examples?
    How could one 59D wheatie be struck at the Mint?
    Sure would love to own it. Anyone have any idea where this piece is?

    image >>



    I have seen two of these, and did not like either one of them.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BillyKingsleyBillyKingsley Posts: 2,661 ✭✭✭✭
    I think everyone has missed the real humor here...finding a 2010 nickel in circulation!
    Billy Kingsley ANA R-3146356 Cardboard History // Numismatic History
  • Ed62Ed62 Posts: 857 ✭✭
    Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real?

    The really important question is how much such a .000000000000055% increase in the US money supply would contribute to the inflation that threatens to swamp our economy.
    Ed
  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Imagine the fun you could cause in a grocery store.....examining each and every coin with a loupe prior to acceptance in change? Questioning a worn 1996 quarter and disputing its authenticity? Demanding a different coin in change, because you suspect a counterfeit?

    .....maybe someday when Im in one of my "moods' Ill give that a whirl. image
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I have seen two of these, and did not like either one of them.
    TD >>



    Tom---What was it that you didn't like about them other than the design was wrong for a 1959 cent? Was it a gut feeling sort of thing or something more specific?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • morgansforevermorgansforever Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭✭✭
    <<I have seen two of these, and did not like either one of them.
    TD>>

    Did you have an opportunity to purchase them?
    World coins FSHO Hundreds of successful BST transactions U.S. coins FSHO
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "If I can produce something so correctly, so perfect that the experts
    declare it to be genuine, then for all practical purposes it is genuine.
    There is no fraud involved when I sell it."
    - Convicted master forger Mark Hofmann



    Perhaps Mr. Hoffmann should be hired as an expert witness in defense of the coin doctors.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>They would add to the money supply in circulation: PV = MT.
    Inflation is on the way !! >>



    You have to add a lot of nickels to make any significant difference in that equation, which for those who didn't take economics in school is -

    Price X volume (number of units sold) = the money supply X the velocity of money (number of times money is spent in the year).

    The Federal Reserve System with some computer key strokes can dwarf any increase in the money supply that would be created by a batch of privately made nickels.

    At any rate, it now costs more than five cents for the mint to make a nickel so I seriously doubt that any private counterfeiter could make a high quality piece for less. If they can, the mint should hire them on as a private contractor. image
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • morgansforevermorgansforever Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭✭✭
    <<Perhaps Mr. Hoffmann should be hired as an expert witness in defense of the coin doctors.>>

    He's not going anywhere, currently serving life in a Utah State Prison.
    I'm not defending this guy, he was a con, a bomber and a murderer.
    His work is intriguing though, as it fooled forensic document experts, and TPG's.
    He claimed that there is Mormon gold in plastic, not sure which TPG.
    World coins FSHO Hundreds of successful BST transactions U.S. coins FSHO
  • "forensic document experts"

    I steer way clear of those - some of the "best" names in the business have been laughed out of court as unable to verify anything and often end up involved in a bad way. Read.....even those with letters from DA's have been found - unreliable. The best services are ...oh well.

    ERIC
  • If you have received it in change, the damage has already been done. The counterfeiters have made their profit and are long gone. The question remains, will I accept it? Like someone said earlier, it would be like taking and spending a Canadian quarter. You accept it in good faith and spend it in good faith. It has now become part of our circulating coinage and would probably cost more to try and stop than just to accept it and go about our business.

    Ron

    Edited to add: Isn't a 5¢ piece still made of nickel and still worth 5¢?
    Collect for the love of the hobby, the beauty of the coins, and enjoy the ride.
  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500
    the problem with counterfeit 2010 nickels is they are only worth a nickel
    (negative profit margins don't make a lasting business model)


    now say you made 2005-D bison nickels and added a die gouge and came up with a catchy phrase like speared bison and could sell them for $50+


    or 2004-D WI quarters and added a couple loops in the corn stalk and could sell them for $100+



    and you were the only producer of these items - and could control the market
    and get some prominent dealers to 'discover and promote'


    then you would have something
    much better than making something for 6 cents and selling it for 5 cents

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