Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect...
MrEureka
Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Clearly, that's the only logical answer. Everyone else is probably running nickel racketeering scams.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Now... if I KNEW it was counterfeit, thats a different story... but if its so good no one can decifer between the two, and is being passed as such, so be it. 5c isnt worth sorting through all my change to not accept it.
bob
<< <i>Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real? >>
I believe we are already doing that with our paper money.
<< <i>Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real? >>
If that was a problem, you'd imagine the Federal government would come up with anti-counterfeit measures, like they do with bills.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Heck, anymore it's hard enough for the mint to produce coins "perfect" enough to pass for real.
sounds like a governmental business plan
<< <i>Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real? >>
I can't answer your question since your premise is just plain silly.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real? >>
I can't answer your question since your premise is just plain silly. >>
Inflation is on the way !!
<< <i>We know there are counterfeit 20's in circulation. Do you accept $20 bills? >>
Arn't there also a couple of million $100's from N. Korea too?
<< <i>We know there are counterfeit 20's in circulation. Do you accept $20 bills? >>
Good point.
Actually,
Excellent point!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real? >>
Even if there were 50 million in circulation, that totals a staggering $2.5 million in counterfeit nickels, so much money that it is probably equivalent to replacing the granite countertops...and probably a few toilet seats... in the Men's room at the Congress building in D.C.
If any person is confliced by the moral dilemna of passing an undetectable counterfeit that won't even buy a sugar gumball from gumball machine (you need a quarter nowadays), they probably have the perfect life. Most of the rest of us are worrying about the things that actually matter; oil spills in the gulf, goverment deficits in the trillions, global warming / cooling, high unemployment, etc etc etc.
Even if I KNEW it were counterfeit, I would pass it because, well, it is a friggin' nickel that isn't even worth the hassle of picking up off the street.
Yeah, 'cause that (current) 1 cent (4.3886%) hit would be disasterous: Live rates at 2010.08.20 23:51:00 UTC, 1.00 CAD = 0.956114 USD
I just replaced "counterfeit 2010 Jefferson nickels" with "artificially toned coin" and "spend" with sell. The question becomes very interesting.
Eric
If a coin falls in the woods and there is nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>It nobody can determine the coin to be a counterfeit...then is it a counterfeit? >>
Yes. If it isn't made by the U.S. Mint, it's counterfeit.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>It nobody can determine the coin to be a counterfeit...then is it a counterfeit? >>
Yes. If it isn't made by the U.S. Mint, it's counterfeit. >>
Yeah...but if you cannot determine it's a counterfeit then how will you know it was not made at the US Mint?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>Amazing.... the undebatable is still being debated. Cheers, RickO >>
Yeah...but it's still early Saturday morning and I just saw the thread!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
"If I can produce something so correctly, so perfect that the experts
declare it to be genuine, then for all practical purposes it is genuine.
There is no fraud involved when I sell it."
- Convicted master forger Mark Hofmann
Sounds very similar, did you just finish reading Numismatic Forgery?
One of Hofmann's creations. Bob Campbell past- President of the ANA examined the coin.
"The fabic was there, it was machine struck with exacting pre-1962 alloy, but it just didn't feel right."
"More like a gut feeling." I agree with him, besides were are the other examples?
How could one 59D wheatie be struck at the Mint?
Sure would love to own it. Anyone have any idea where this piece is?
<< <i><<Imagine a counterfeit 2010 Jefferson Nickel that is so perfect that nobody can say with certainty that it is counterfeit. And imagine that it is one of millions known to be in circulation. Would you accept 2010 Jefferson Nickels in change? Could you spend one with a clear conscience if you weren't sure it was real?>>
"If I can produce something so correctly, so perfect that the experts
declare it to be genuine, then for all practical purposes it is genuine.
There is no fraud involved when I sell it."
- Convicted master forger Mark Hofmann
Sounds very similar, did you just finish reading Numismatic Forgery?
One of Hofmann's creations. Bob Campbell past- President of the ANA examined the coin.
"The fabic was there, it was machine struck with exacting pre-1962 alloy, but it just didn't feel right."
"More like a gut feeling." I agree with him, besides were are the other examples?
How could one 59D wheatie be struck at the Mint?
Sure would love to own it. Anyone have any idea where this piece is?
>>
I have seen two of these, and did not like either one of them.
TD
The really important question is how much such a .000000000000055% increase in the US money supply would contribute to the inflation that threatens to swamp our economy.
.....maybe someday when Im in one of my "moods' Ill give that a whirl.
<< <i>I have seen two of these, and did not like either one of them.
TD >>
Tom---What was it that you didn't like about them other than the design was wrong for a 1959 cent? Was it a gut feeling sort of thing or something more specific?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
TD>>
Did you have an opportunity to purchase them?
declare it to be genuine, then for all practical purposes it is genuine.
There is no fraud involved when I sell it."
- Convicted master forger Mark Hofmann
Perhaps Mr. Hoffmann should be hired as an expert witness in defense of the coin doctors.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>They would add to the money supply in circulation: PV = MT.
Inflation is on the way !! >>
You have to add a lot of nickels to make any significant difference in that equation, which for those who didn't take economics in school is -
Price X volume (number of units sold) = the money supply X the velocity of money (number of times money is spent in the year).
The Federal Reserve System with some computer key strokes can dwarf any increase in the money supply that would be created by a batch of privately made nickels.
At any rate, it now costs more than five cents for the mint to make a nickel so I seriously doubt that any private counterfeiter could make a high quality piece for less. If they can, the mint should hire them on as a private contractor.
He's not going anywhere, currently serving life in a Utah State Prison.
I'm not defending this guy, he was a con, a bomber and a murderer.
His work is intriguing though, as it fooled forensic document experts, and TPG's.
He claimed that there is Mormon gold in plastic, not sure which TPG.
I steer way clear of those - some of the "best" names in the business have been laughed out of court as unable to verify anything and often end up involved in a bad way. Read.....even those with letters from DA's have been found - unreliable. The best services are ...oh well.
ERIC
Ron
Edited to add: Isn't a 5¢ piece still made of nickel and still worth 5¢?
(negative profit margins don't make a lasting business model)
now say you made 2005-D bison nickels and added a die gouge and came up with a catchy phrase like speared bison and could sell them for $50+
or 2004-D WI quarters and added a couple loops in the corn stalk and could sell them for $100+
and you were the only producer of these items - and could control the market
and get some prominent dealers to 'discover and promote'
then you would have something
much better than making something for 6 cents and selling it for 5 cents