Lot of armchair judges/jurists/and lawyers around here it seems.
Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh?
For me, I'm all for PCGS doing this. Unlike some that seem to have something stuck in their craw (some of the NGC posters who claim this is just PR), I have nothing against them. People that are stretching for excuses on why the lawsuit won't work aren't doing anyone a favor. Sometimes, it is just best to accept things for what they are.....a company going against those that have wronged it....and stay out of things if one isn't directly involved.
Indirectly, I think all of us who submit coins, or even just collect coins, are involved, so I wish PCGS much luck and leave it at that.
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Whatever would make you believe that we dummies could think of all these things but the attorneys involved could not? Any time the application of justice comes up, you'll get everyones two cents worth about it. People can't help it...it's a natural reaction, just like standing over someone's shoulder when they're playing solitaire and telling them which card to play.
Which reminds me...
Two guys were at their local sporting goods store getting outfitted for their upcoming hunting trip to the mountains. The clerk asked them if they were familiar with the area and when they replied that they were not, suggested that they both buy compasses or GPS units. The first hunter agreed and said that he'd take both, just to be sure that he'd be able to get to civilization again if lost. The second hunter said that he'd pass on the compass and GPS, but would take a deck of cards if the store had any. The clerk was taken aback..."What if you're lost?", he asked. The second hunter replied, "If I'm lost, I'll just take out the deck of cards and start playing solitaire, and in a couple of minutes there will be some guy standing over my shoulder telling me to play the red jack on the black queen...I'll just ask him how to get out of the woods".
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Do you really believe the defendants' lawyers are going to plan their defense based on ideas from a chat room?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Doing this is a win/win for PCGS anyway you look at it. They expose the bad guys, and certainly can't be expected to just sit back and keep on paying out claim after claim. They definitely get my vote-------------------------------BigE
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Do you really believe the defendants' lawyers are going to plan their defense based on ideas from a chat room? >>
It would benefit the defense to read the comments in this thread. Many posters here would certainly qualify as expert witnesses. Plus, I believe OregonCityGold is hinting at a possible defense of laches.
<< <i>I'm not a lawyer but my gut feeling tells me that PCGS will have an uphill battle convincing a judge or a bunch of jurors without a coin collecting background that it's wrong to repair or "improve" a coin. The defense lawyers will point out that it's common with other collectibles to repair and enhance those collectibles such as antique cars which are commonly repaired and repainted. Don't most non-collectors think this is no big deal? Don't many people think it's a good idea to polish an old silver coin to make it new looking? Don't forget that the jury will not consist of experienced coin collectors and professional coin experts. I'm curious what the lawyers and lawyer wannabes here think about PCGS chances of winning this lawsuit? >>
That's the thing.....you put HRH on the stand and ask him if he has ever dipped a coin.....or if he has ever "doctored" a coin by dipping it.....then ask him if PCGS has ever bounced a coin for "over dipping." The point being that a lot of this is subjective.....
I'm not sure PCGS can win this, but I think just filing puts the bad guys on alert. I hope the guys across the street have the cajones to do the same thing.
<< <i>I'm not a lawyer but my gut feeling tells me that PCGS will have an uphill battle convincing a judge or a bunch of jurors without a coin collecting background that it's wrong to repair or "improve" a coin. The defense lawyers will point out that it's common with other collectibles to repair and enhance those collectibles such as antique cars which are commonly repaired and repainted. Don't most non-collectors think this is no big deal? Don't many people think it's a good idea to polish an old silver coin to make it new looking? Don't forget that the jury will not consist of experienced coin collectors and professional coin experts. I'm curious what the lawyers and lawyer wannabes here think about PCGS chances of winning this lawsuit? >>
That's the thing.....you put HRH on the stand and ask him if he has ever dipped a coin.....or if he has ever "doctored" a coin by dipping it.....then ask him if PCGS has ever bounced a coin for "over dipping." The point being that a lot of this is subjective.....
I'm not sure PCGS can win this, but I think just filing puts the bad guys on alert. I hope the guys across the street have the cajones to do the same thing. >>
This lawsuit is not about dipping coins. Applying putty or other substances to coins in order to cover up flaws, lasering coins to remove flaws and adding metal to coins are very different from dipping. While there are gray areas regarding what constitutes coin doctoring, I believe that there are also black and white ones. And it is those, and an alleged breach of contract resulting in damages, which appear to be the subject of the lawsuit.
<< <i>I'm not a lawyer but my gut feeling tells me that PCGS will have an uphill battle convincing a judge or a bunch of jurors without a coin collecting background that it's wrong to repair or "improve" a coin. The defense lawyers will point out that it's common with other collectibles to repair and enhance those collectibles such as antique cars which are commonly repaired and repainted. Don't most non-collectors think this is no big deal? Don't many people think it's a good idea to polish an old silver coin to make it new looking? Don't forget that the jury will not consist of experienced coin collectors and professional coin experts. I'm curious what the lawyers and lawyer wannabes here think about PCGS chances of winning this lawsuit? >>
That's the thing.....you put HRH on the stand and ask him if he has ever dipped a coin.....or if he has ever "doctored" a coin by dipping it.....then ask him if PCGS has ever bounced a coin for "over dipping." The point being that a lot of this is subjective.....
I'm not sure PCGS can win this, but I think just filing puts the bad guys on alert. I hope the guys across the street have the cajones to do the same thing. >>
This lawsuit is not about dipping coins. Applying putty or other substances to coins in order to cover up flaws, lasering coins to remove flaws and adding metal to coins are very different from dipping. While there are gray areas regarding what constitutes coin doctoring, I believe that there are also black and white ones. And it is those, and an alleged breach of contract resulting in damages, which appear to be the subject of the lawsuit. >>
Do you really think the defense lawyers will limit the discussion to some contract provision? Why would they not put PCGS on trial for cleaning coins (dipping coins in acetone to remove PVC for example)?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>I'm not a lawyer but my gut feeling tells me that PCGS will have an uphill battle convincing a judge or a bunch of jurors without a coin collecting background that it's wrong to repair or "improve" a coin. The defense lawyers will point out that it's common with other collectibles to repair and enhance those collectibles such as antique cars which are commonly repaired and repainted. Don't most non-collectors think this is no big deal? Don't many people think it's a good idea to polish an old silver coin to make it new looking? Don't forget that the jury will not consist of experienced coin collectors and professional coin experts. I'm curious what the lawyers and lawyer wannabes here think about PCGS chances of winning this lawsuit? >>
That's the thing.....you put HRH on the stand and ask him if he has ever dipped a coin.....or if he has ever "doctored" a coin by dipping it.....then ask him if PCGS has ever bounced a coin for "over dipping." The point being that a lot of this is subjective.....
I'm not sure PCGS can win this, but I think just filing puts the bad guys on alert. I hope the guys across the street have the cajones to do the same thing. >>
This lawsuit is not about dipping coins. Applying putty or other substances to coins in order to cover up flaws, lasering coins to remove flaws and adding metal to coins are very different from dipping. While there are gray areas regarding what constitutes coin doctoring, I believe that there are also black and white ones. And it is those, and an alleged breach of contract resulting in damages, which appear to be the subject of the lawsuit. >>
Do you really think the defense lawyers will limit the discussion to some contract provision? Why would they not put PCGS on trial for cleaning coins (dipping coins in acetone to remove PVC for example)? >>
Of course the defense can try to divert attention from the breach of contract issue (and any others it wants to avoid). But, in the end, if PCGS has the evidence - and I would bet that they do - diversions on the part of the defense wont matter, and PCGS should prevail.
PerryHall <<I'm not a lawyer but my gut feeling tells me that PCGS will have an uphill battle convincing a judge or a bunch of jurors without a coin collecting background that it's wrong to repair or "improve" a coin. The defense lawyers will point out that it's common with other collectibles to repair and enhance those collectibles such as antique cars which are commonly repaired and repainted. Don't most non-collectors think this is no big deal?>>
Antique cars are not graded in the way that coins, stamps, diamonds, or baseball cards are graded. Doctoring is a problem in many fields. If a modern engine is placed into the body of an antique car, and then the car is represented as having mostly original parts, including an original engine block, then everyone would agree that the seller is guilty of fraud.
Jurors can be told that terrible things are done to coins with the intent of deceiving the PCGS and collectors. The PCGS dealer-submitter-agreement prohibits a wide range of activities in regards to ‘messing with’ coins.
CoinGuy1 << This lawsuit is not about dipping coins. Applying putty or other substances to coins in order to cover up flaws, lasering coins to remove flaws and adding metal to coins are very different from dipping. While there are gray areas regarding what constitutes coin doctoring, I believe that there are also black and white ones. And it is those, and an alleged breach of contract resulting in damages, which appear to be the subject of the lawsuit.>>
Yes, CoinGuy1, I agree that this lawsuit concerns, among other matters, some very blatant, indisputable instances of coin doctoring. It can be explained to jurors that terrible things were done to specific coins with the intent to deceive. IF it can be show that the defendants were knowingly involved in coin doctoring, jurors will not look favorably upon the profits that coin doctors can potentially make and their obvious greed.
AirplaneNut <<They'll just submit the coins some other way. Let's suppose Dealer A gets blacklisted. Why can't he submit through Dealers B-E?>>
AirplaneNut, experts at PCGS and NGC can recognize some of the work of specific coin doctors. More importantly, lawsuits can be filed against PCGS-dealer non-doctors who forward submissions from coin doctors. A non-doctor dealer who submits a substantial number of doctored coins, and who is closely affiliated with coin doctors, can, I hypothesize, sometimes be shown to be knowingly submitting doctored coins for PCGS grading.
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Do you really believe the defendants' lawyers are going to plan their defense based on ideas from a chat room? >>
I doubt it, but I still find it immature and stupid to just muddy the waters by talking about it publicly like this. PCGS should remove all the threads about it, but then whiners would be whining that it is " a free country and forum and all forms of speech should be allowed".
I've always found it most prudent to keep all gossip zipped up when it comes to any type of lawsuit. I still appreciated DaveE for showing the information at the start but all the tongue-waggers are acting just like they are on a school yard.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I think it is way too early to speculate on the chances of a PCGS judgement in the lawsuit. After all, very few of the facts have come to light - that is what the trial is for.
I learned long ago not to jump the gun when dealing with our judicial system.
That being said, PCGS is not the type of company to file frivilous lawsuits. That tells me they have done their homework and feel the case has merit.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Do you really believe the defendants' lawyers are going to plan their defense based on ideas from a chat room? >>
Hey, I did it. I had ZERO experience, my opponent had 35 years and was representing a multi-billion dollar client...To be brutally honest, I had no idea what I was doing, except for using some stuff I read on a Chat board. Man was that lawyer pissed, I only wish I coulda recorded the calls...I won...Now that's
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Do you really believe the defendants' lawyers are going to plan their defense based on ideas from a chat room? >>
Hey, I did it. I had ZERO experience, my opponent had 35 years and was representing a multi-billion dollar client...To be brutally honest, I had no idea what I was doing, except for using some stuff I read on a Chat board. Man was that lawyer pissed, I only wish I coulda recorded the calls...I won...Now that's >>
You were your own lawyer? You know what they say when you act as your own lawyer, don't you?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Do you really believe the defendants' lawyers are going to plan their defense based on ideas from a chat room? >>
Hey, I did it. I had ZERO experience, my opponent had 35 years and was representing a multi-billion dollar client...To be brutally honest, I had no idea what I was doing, except for using some stuff I read on a Chat board. Man was that lawyer pissed, I only wish I coulda recorded the calls...I won...Now that's >>
You were your own lawyer? You know what they say when you act as your own lawyer, don't you? >>
No, I was not my own lawyer, I was the lawyer representing my buddy Pro Bono......He had absolutely no defense....I framed the dismissal
<< <i>PCGS has already won. The court of public opinion is alive and wants the bad guys shut down. >>
Public opinion has little bearing on coin doctors' ability to carry out their practices.
And public opinion won't stay on the side of PCGS if they become too tight. If we get to the point where PCGS won't grade anything that looks even remotely suspicious, then people will begin to get very frustrated.
My guess is if PCGS loses the case, being a PCGS certified dealer will mean nothing. It will lose value to the purchasing public. If they win, I guess the opposite will happen. That is, if a PCGS dealer tells you that he submitted the coin and it was slabbed, it will add a layer of confidence. As that dealer would think twice before submitting a coin he knows is "doctored".
Of course PCGS is a business, and the primary purpose of the business is to make money To give PCGS any kudos for creating this lawsuit is silly. I would bet that PCGS is doing it because it's in their financial interest. If PCGS has to pay out to owners of PCGS slabs when they turn bad, then I would think PCGS would much rather reach into the pocket of the person who created the problem in the first place. Of course.
I would expect that some of the named in the complaint will be filing their own complaints against PCGS. Their reputations, businesses, and careers are at stake. I don't imagine they are going to just lie there and take it.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
<< <i>I would expect that some of the named in the complaint will be filing their own complaints against PCGS. Their reputations, businesses, and careers are at stake. I don't imagine they are going to just lie there and take it. >>
Excellant point. This is going to get ugly.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i><< I would expect that some of the named in the complaint will be filing their own complaints against PCGS. Their reputations, businesses, and careers are at stake. I don't imagine they are going to just lie there and take it. >>
Excellant point. This is going to get ugly. >>
Don't feel too sorry for the docs, if it get's too ugly they can always lazer, dip or chemically treat themselves to "pretty things up a bit".
Seriously, as a collector I'm so glad this has finally happend. It's been too long coming. I've always concluded the "messed with coins" just make the "original coins" worth that much more. Originality's day in the sun is coming.
<< <i>Maybe they're using the old strategy of winning by draining them financially to defend themselves. Regardless of the outcome, it's a victory. >>
Not if the defense lawyers got any brains it's not. >>
Agree. Also, the defense lawyers can play that same game. >>
My point is that's an abuse of the legal process and if that's all you're doing and the defense has any brains they'll catch you at it and make you pay for it.
Comments
Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh?
For me, I'm all for PCGS doing this. Unlike some that seem to have something stuck in their craw (some of the NGC posters who claim this is just PR), I have nothing against them. People that are stretching for excuses on why the lawsuit won't work aren't doing anyone a favor. Sometimes, it is just best to accept things for what they are.....a company going against those that have wronged it....and stay out of things if one isn't directly involved.
Indirectly, I think all of us who submit coins, or even just collect coins, are involved, so I wish PCGS much luck and leave it at that.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Whatever would make you believe that we dummies could think of all these things but the attorneys involved could not? Any time the application of justice comes up, you'll get everyones two cents worth about it. People can't help it...it's a natural reaction, just like standing over someone's shoulder when they're playing solitaire and telling them which card to play.
Which reminds me...
Two guys were at their local sporting goods store getting outfitted for their upcoming hunting trip to the mountains. The clerk asked them if they were familiar with the area and when they replied that they were not, suggested that they both buy compasses or GPS units. The first hunter agreed and said that he'd take both, just to be sure that he'd be able to get to civilization again if lost. The second hunter said that he'd pass on the compass and GPS, but would take a deck of cards if the store had any. The clerk was taken aback..."What if you're lost?", he asked. The second hunter replied, "If I'm lost, I'll just take out the deck of cards and start playing solitaire, and in a couple of minutes there will be some guy standing over my shoulder telling me to play the red jack on the black queen...I'll just ask him how to get out of the woods".
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Do you really believe the defendants' lawyers are going to plan their defense based on ideas from a chat room?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Do you really believe the defendants' lawyers are going to plan their defense based on ideas from a chat room?
It would benefit the defense to read the comments in this thread. Many posters here would certainly qualify as expert witnesses. Plus, I believe OregonCityGold is hinting at a possible defense of laches.
<< <i>I'm not a lawyer but my gut feeling tells me that PCGS will have an uphill battle convincing a judge or a bunch of jurors without a coin collecting background that it's wrong to repair or "improve" a coin. The defense lawyers will point out that it's common with other collectibles to repair and enhance those collectibles such as antique cars which are commonly repaired and repainted. Don't most non-collectors think this is no big deal? Don't many people think it's a good idea to polish an old silver coin to make it new looking? Don't forget that the jury will not consist of experienced coin collectors and professional coin experts. I'm curious what the lawyers and lawyer wannabes here think about PCGS chances of winning this lawsuit? >>
That's the thing.....you put HRH on the stand and ask him if he has ever dipped a coin.....or if he has ever "doctored" a coin by dipping it.....then ask him if PCGS has ever bounced a coin for "over dipping." The point being that a lot of this is subjective.....
I'm not sure PCGS can win this, but I think just filing puts the bad guys on alert. I hope the guys across the street have the cajones to do the same thing.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not a lawyer but my gut feeling tells me that PCGS will have an uphill battle convincing a judge or a bunch of jurors without a coin collecting background that it's wrong to repair or "improve" a coin. The defense lawyers will point out that it's common with other collectibles to repair and enhance those collectibles such as antique cars which are commonly repaired and repainted. Don't most non-collectors think this is no big deal? Don't many people think it's a good idea to polish an old silver coin to make it new looking? Don't forget that the jury will not consist of experienced coin collectors and professional coin experts. I'm curious what the lawyers and lawyer wannabes here think about PCGS chances of winning this lawsuit? >>
That's the thing.....you put HRH on the stand and ask him if he has ever dipped a coin.....or if he has ever "doctored" a coin by dipping it.....then ask him if PCGS has ever bounced a coin for "over dipping." The point being that a lot of this is subjective.....
I'm not sure PCGS can win this, but I think just filing puts the bad guys on alert. I hope the guys across the street have the cajones to do the same thing. >>
This lawsuit is not about dipping coins. Applying putty or other substances to coins in order to cover up flaws, lasering coins to remove flaws and adding metal to coins are very different from dipping. While there are gray areas regarding what constitutes coin doctoring, I believe that there are also black and white ones. And it is those, and an alleged breach of contract resulting in damages, which appear to be the subject of the lawsuit.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not a lawyer but my gut feeling tells me that PCGS will have an uphill battle convincing a judge or a bunch of jurors without a coin collecting background that it's wrong to repair or "improve" a coin. The defense lawyers will point out that it's common with other collectibles to repair and enhance those collectibles such as antique cars which are commonly repaired and repainted. Don't most non-collectors think this is no big deal? Don't many people think it's a good idea to polish an old silver coin to make it new looking? Don't forget that the jury will not consist of experienced coin collectors and professional coin experts. I'm curious what the lawyers and lawyer wannabes here think about PCGS chances of winning this lawsuit? >>
That's the thing.....you put HRH on the stand and ask him if he has ever dipped a coin.....or if he has ever "doctored" a coin by dipping it.....then ask him if PCGS has ever bounced a coin for "over dipping." The point being that a lot of this is subjective.....
I'm not sure PCGS can win this, but I think just filing puts the bad guys on alert. I hope the guys across the street have the cajones to do the same thing. >>
This lawsuit is not about dipping coins. Applying putty or other substances to coins in order to cover up flaws, lasering coins to remove flaws and adding metal to coins are very different from dipping. While there are gray areas regarding what constitutes coin doctoring, I believe that there are also black and white ones. And it is those, and an alleged breach of contract resulting in damages, which appear to be the subject of the lawsuit. >>
Do you really think the defense lawyers will limit the discussion to some contract provision? Why would they not put PCGS on trial for cleaning coins (dipping coins in acetone to remove PVC for example)?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not a lawyer but my gut feeling tells me that PCGS will have an uphill battle convincing a judge or a bunch of jurors without a coin collecting background that it's wrong to repair or "improve" a coin. The defense lawyers will point out that it's common with other collectibles to repair and enhance those collectibles such as antique cars which are commonly repaired and repainted. Don't most non-collectors think this is no big deal? Don't many people think it's a good idea to polish an old silver coin to make it new looking? Don't forget that the jury will not consist of experienced coin collectors and professional coin experts. I'm curious what the lawyers and lawyer wannabes here think about PCGS chances of winning this lawsuit? >>
That's the thing.....you put HRH on the stand and ask him if he has ever dipped a coin.....or if he has ever "doctored" a coin by dipping it.....then ask him if PCGS has ever bounced a coin for "over dipping." The point being that a lot of this is subjective.....
I'm not sure PCGS can win this, but I think just filing puts the bad guys on alert. I hope the guys across the street have the cajones to do the same thing. >>
This lawsuit is not about dipping coins. Applying putty or other substances to coins in order to cover up flaws, lasering coins to remove flaws and adding metal to coins are very different from dipping. While there are gray areas regarding what constitutes coin doctoring, I believe that there are also black and white ones. And it is those, and an alleged breach of contract resulting in damages, which appear to be the subject of the lawsuit. >>
Do you really think the defense lawyers will limit the discussion to some contract provision? Why would they not put PCGS on trial for cleaning coins (dipping coins in acetone to remove PVC for example)? >>
Of course the defense can try to divert attention from the breach of contract issue (and any others it wants to avoid). But, in the end, if PCGS has the evidence - and I would bet that they do - diversions on the part of the defense wont matter, and PCGS should prevail.
Antique cars are not graded in the way that coins, stamps, diamonds, or baseball cards are graded. Doctoring is a problem in many fields. If a modern engine is placed into the body of an antique car, and then the car is represented as having mostly original parts, including an original engine block, then everyone would agree that the seller is guilty of fraud.
Jurors can be told that terrible things are done to coins with the intent of deceiving the PCGS and collectors. The PCGS dealer-submitter-agreement prohibits a wide range of activities in regards to ‘messing with’ coins.
CoinGuy1 << This lawsuit is not about dipping coins. Applying putty or other substances to coins in order to cover up flaws, lasering coins to remove flaws and adding metal to coins are very different from dipping. While there are gray areas regarding what constitutes coin doctoring, I believe that there are also black and white ones. And it is those, and an alleged breach of contract resulting in damages, which appear to be the subject of the lawsuit.>>
Yes, CoinGuy1, I agree that this lawsuit concerns, among other matters, some very blatant, indisputable instances of coin doctoring. It can be explained to jurors that terrible things were done to specific coins with the intent to deceive. IF it can be show that the defendants were knowingly involved in coin doctoring, jurors will not look favorably upon the profits that coin doctors can potentially make and their obvious greed.
AirplaneNut <<They'll just submit the coins some other way. Let's suppose Dealer A gets blacklisted. Why can't he submit through Dealers B-E?>>
AirplaneNut, experts at PCGS and NGC can recognize some of the work of specific coin doctors. More importantly, lawsuits can be filed against PCGS-dealer non-doctors who forward submissions from coin doctors. A non-doctor dealer who submits a substantial number of doctored coins, and who is closely affiliated with coin doctors, can, I hypothesize, sometimes be shown to be knowingly submitting doctored coins for PCGS grading.
Complaint filed by CU-PCGS
Discussion of Conservation in article on Gem 1893-S dollar
My idea as to how the NGC can identify some doctored coins and discourage coin doctoring with technology that the NGC recently employed
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 1
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 2
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 3
PCGS Message Board Thread about Collecting Naturally Toned Coins Articles
<< <i>
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Do you really believe the defendants' lawyers are going to plan their defense based on ideas from a chat room?
I doubt it, but I still find it immature and stupid to just muddy the waters by talking about it publicly like this.
PCGS should remove all the threads about it, but then whiners would be whining that it is " a free country and forum and all forms of speech should be allowed".
I've always found it most prudent to keep all gossip zipped up when it comes to any type of lawsuit.
I still appreciated DaveE for showing the information at the start but all the tongue-waggers are acting just like they are on a school yard.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I learned long ago not to jump the gun when dealing with our judicial system.
That being said, PCGS is not the type of company to file frivilous lawsuits. That tells me they have done their homework and feel the case has merit.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
<< <i>Can you imagine what occurs if PCGS loses the case?! >>
Major embarrassment!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Also, section 10. on page 6 will be argued as ONLY applying if an increase of face value was the intent.
PCGS's petition seems fairly "bare bones" at this point.
<< <i>As per page 5, PCGS now caused ALL DETAILS regarding EVERY BUYBACK EVER DONE to now be discoverable. >>
Will this become public record?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Do you really believe the defendants' lawyers are going to plan their defense based on ideas from a chat room?
Hey, I did it. I had ZERO experience, my opponent had 35 years and was representing a multi-billion dollar client...To be brutally honest, I had no idea what I was doing, except for using some stuff I read on a Chat board. Man was that lawyer pissed, I only wish I coulda recorded the calls...I won...Now that's
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Do you really believe the defendants' lawyers are going to plan their defense based on ideas from a chat room?
Hey, I did it. I had ZERO experience, my opponent had 35 years and was representing a multi-billion dollar client...To be brutally honest, I had no idea what I was doing, except for using some stuff I read on a Chat board. Man was that lawyer pissed, I only wish I coulda recorded the calls...I won...Now that's
You were your own lawyer? You know what they say when you act as your own lawyer, don't you?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Can you imagine what occurs if PCGS loses the case?! >>
What?
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<< <i>
<< <i>Not sure why people have to try to prove how smart they are and offer up thoughts and defenses, etc. Nothing like giving potential ideas on things to do to people being sued, eh? >>
Do you really believe the defendants' lawyers are going to plan their defense based on ideas from a chat room?
Hey, I did it. I had ZERO experience, my opponent had 35 years and was representing a multi-billion dollar client...To be brutally honest, I had no idea what I was doing, except for using some stuff I read on a Chat board. Man was that lawyer pissed, I only wish I coulda recorded the calls...I won...Now that's
You were your own lawyer? You know what they say when you act as your own lawyer, don't you?
No, I was not my own lawyer, I was the lawyer representing my buddy Pro Bono......He had absolutely no defense....I framed the dismissal
<< <i>PCGS has already won. The court of public opinion is alive and wants the bad guys shut down. >>
Public opinion has little bearing on coin doctors' ability to carry out their practices.
And public opinion won't stay on the side of PCGS if they become too tight. If we get to the point where PCGS won't grade anything that looks even remotely suspicious, then people will begin to get very frustrated.
Of course PCGS is a business, and the primary purpose of the business is to make money To give PCGS any kudos for creating this lawsuit is silly. I would bet that PCGS is doing it because it's in their financial interest. If PCGS has to pay out to owners of PCGS slabs when they turn bad, then I would think PCGS would much rather reach into the pocket of the person who created the problem in the first place. Of course.
I would expect that some of the named in the complaint will be filing their own complaints against PCGS. Their reputations, businesses, and careers are at stake. I don't imagine they are going to just lie there and take it.
<< <i>I would expect that some of the named in the complaint will be filing their own complaints against PCGS. Their reputations, businesses, and careers are at stake. I don't imagine they are going to just lie there and take it. >>
Excellant point. This is going to get ugly.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
The PCGS Lawsuit Against Alleged Coin Doctors
<< <i>Maybe they're using the old strategy of winning by draining them financially to defend themselves. Regardless of the outcome, it's a victory. >>
Not if the defense lawyers got any brains it's not.
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<< <i>Maybe they're using the old strategy of winning by draining them financially to defend themselves. Regardless of the outcome, it's a victory. >>
Not if the defense lawyers got any brains it's not. >>
Agree. Also, the defense lawyers can play that same game.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i><< I would expect that some of the named in the complaint will be filing their own complaints against PCGS. Their reputations, businesses, and careers are at stake. I don't imagine they are going to just lie there and take it. >>
Excellant point. This is going to get ugly. >>
Don't feel too sorry for the docs, if it get's too ugly they can always lazer, dip or chemically treat themselves to "pretty things up a bit".
Seriously, as a collector I'm so glad this has finally happend. It's been too long coming. I've always concluded the "messed with coins" just make the "original coins" worth that much more. Originality's day in the sun is coming.
I just hope we get to see the word "replevin" and the phrase "trespass to chattels." Those words have always cracked me up.
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<< <i>Maybe they're using the old strategy of winning by draining them financially to defend themselves. Regardless of the outcome, it's a victory. >>
Not if the defense lawyers got any brains it's not. >>
Agree. Also, the defense lawyers can play that same game. >>
My point is that's an abuse of the legal process and if that's all you're doing and the defense has any brains they'll catch you at it and make you pay for it.
up their sleeve. This is a battle that the company has no intention of losing and they will
not lose.
As a fall back position, we can bundle up all of the lawyers that are members of the Forum
and unleash their collective wit and wisdom.
Camelot