PCGS has gone crazy. :(

Alltheabove76

I posted a problem yesterday that I sent three coins to PCGS, I overnighted them and selected a 5 day submission. Yesterday my grades (or non grades were)


I called today and a CS supervisor named Trista (who was very nice) told me that all 3 had so many problems that they could determine their authenticity. I argued to the point where she said she would have the graders look again and an hour later she called and said they had the same opinion.

I have never heard of this in my life. Let me show photos of all 3 coins.

The first coin, was a Gobrecht Dollar that was repaired. It had graffiti in the fields and Allen Stockton repaired it and it went into a ANACS slab. I decideded to sent it to PCGS so it could be in a genuine slab which is less annoying than reading about all the problems.

If they only "No decisioned" this coin, I wouldnt have really cared. I disagree that they cant determine they authenticity, but at least its a plausible explanation.
Here it is:




Next Coin:
A normal looking chopmarked trade dollar I won on ebay that was problem free except for chopmarks, PCGS grades those problem free so I sent it in,

Here is the auction:

EBAY LINK

Last Coin:
Another ebay coin from a different seller. This one is problem free except it was dipped. My feeling was that PCGS grades a lot of dipped coins that are not cleaned, this one had a shot. Apparantly it is so far gone that they cant even put it in a genuine slab?
Ebay Link


Can anyone make sense of this? Are these coins really so bad they cant even warrant a "Genuine" slab??? I wasted about $50 in shipping to send coins in and just do not know what to think. The explanation I am getting just doesnt make any sense.

CarsonCityGold

Just curious - Did you crack the slabbed coins out and send all 3 in raw?

Alltheabove76

All 3 raw so I could get them on one submission.

Bossman88

Removing a graded coin from its plastic can and has been proven to be very risky.
Very sorry for your loss.

Regards, Larry

Peaceman

Thats the chance you take....

blu62vette

The explanation seems valid, they question the authenticity of the coins.

savoyspecial

get the Gobrecht in an NCS holder


the other two, enjoy raw......sorry to hear your situation

Alltheabove76

<< <i>The explanation seems valid, they question the authenticity of the coins. >>



If a coin is questionable authenticity,they bag them for that. This is them saying they just cant tell. Are they not the best in the world at this? With their team of people not one of those 3 coins are clear enough to be labeled genuine? If these were three of the same type coin from a single source, that would make sense. These are 3 entirely different coins. They didnt bag them, they said they dont know.

MadMarty

<< <i>get the Gobrecht in an NCS holder


the other two, enjoy raw......sorry to hear your situation >>




NCS doesn't slab any more. It would go into the NCG problem slab.

Alltheabove76

Something is just not right here and you cannot speak to anyone who actually understands coins or looked at the coins in question when you call in. This is just absolutely off the wall in my opinion. I keep hoping that they are gonna tell me this was some sort of mistake and they confused my coins with someone elses.

Staircoins

I would try to get the Gobrecht back into an ANACS holder, and the 2 Trade dollars into NCS/NGC holders.

Chalk the $$ up to tuition.

kryptonitecomics

My initial instinct right or wrong is to tell you that this is part of the downside of buying problem coins. Now with that being said...I like the Gobrecht and I do understand chopmarked trade dollars get graded all the time so this leads me to believe that there is something more going on with the trade dollars. The Gobrecht I kinda understand them not being able to tell genuine or not as it has had a lot done to it and while it's in a better state now as far as eye appeal.....some of the tell tale disgonistics have problem been removed due to the repair.

This is a prime example of why I buy most coins already graded.....yes I have to pay more but I know what I am getting and I already have the tpgs opinion I want. Good Luck!

291fifth

Don't buy problem coins. The problems always come back to haunt you.

WoodenJefferson

I decideded to sent it to PCGS so it could be in a genuine slab which is less annoying than reading about all the problems.

I disagree with this, this 1836 Gobrecht Dollar was severely altered and everything that was done to it needs to be reported for future reference. I agree with their decision NOT to put this coin into what may turn out to be a deceptive holder.

Sorry

WTCG

At least PCGS took the high road and refunded your grading fees and after a reconsideration by the graders. They could have simply slapped a "DNC" grade on all three coins and you would've experienced the same result without your grading fees refunded.

If ANACS or NGC declared a coin genuine it doesn't mean that PCGS is required to honor those designations. Circulated Gobrecht and Trade dollars are notorious for being counterfeited and often it is impossible to determine authenticity just by looks alone.

yellowkid

I'm sorry that you lost out here, but it looks like they feel the pieces have so many "issues" that they don't want them in one of their slabs, doesn't that tell you something? I think you want to shoot the messenger.

Russ

On the plus side, you're getting a refund. Before the genuine dealy came about, they'd have just bodybagged them and kept your money.

Russ, NCNE

Alltheabove76

<< <i>I decideded to sent it to PCGS so it could be in a genuine slab which is less annoying than reading about all the problems.

I disagree with this, this 1836 Gobrecht Dollar was severely altered and everything that was done to it needs to be reported for future reference. I agree with their decision NOT to put this coin into what may turn out to be a deceptive holder.

Sorry >>



I dont see how it would be deceptive. If thats the theory, then they shouldnt put any coins in genuine holders.

There was no reason not to grade those trade dollars. If this was money spent for tuition, then I sure wish I knew what I learned. PCGS wont grade trade dollars if you send them in with a repaired coin? That seems to be the only conclusion I can draw.

I have sent in coins with far worse problems that have been given genunine slabs than those two trade dollars. I dont think the chopmarked coin is a "problem coin" other than the chop marks. The dipped one is 50%er. 50% of the time they get graded, the other 50% they get bagged.

Alltheabove76

<< <i>I'm sorry that you lost out here, but it looks like they feel the pieces have so many "issues" that they don't want them in one of their slabs, doesn't that tell you something? I think you want to shoot the messenger. >>



If it was true, I would accept it. Only one of those coins fits that description. There is nothing seriously wrong with those trade dollars.

123cents

I don't know for a fact but I think they would have graded the two Trade Dollars if you wouldn't have sent the 1836 Gorbrecht along with the order.

Alltheabove76

Here is what Allen Stockton did to the trade dollar. Since his work was mainly in the fields, I dont know how that would change the diagnostics of the coin. But, since that coin is so seriously worked on, if they didnt want to grade it, I wouldnt have made any fuss about it. I seriously think my entire order is being punished because of this coin.

kryptonitecomics

<< <i>
There was no reason not to grade those trade dollars. If this was money spent for tuition, then I sure wish I knew what I learned. PCGS wont grade trade dollars if you send them in with a repaired coin? That seems to be the only conclusion I can draw.
>>



In this case at least with regards to the trade dollars which can be found easily already in PCGS holders they are saying that your money would be better spent buying these type of coins already in their holders if you want to guarantee that you have that type of coin in a PCGS holder. They might also be telling you that you are missing additional problems with these coins so again...buying coins already in the holder might be a better direction to take from now on. The Gobrecht is another story...you can't just go out and grab graded/genuine slab examples of these whenever you want so your only lesson there is to leave a coin like that in another tpgs holder if that's how you found it and be happy with the coin and don't worry about the plastic.

braddick

<< <i>On the plus side, you're getting a refund. Before the genuine dealy came about, they'd have just bodybagged them and kept your money.

Russ, NCNE >>



Not true. I've had coins returned along with a full refund and a "No Decision" long before PCGS came up with Genuine holders.

coinguy1

<< <i>Thats the chance you take.... >>

That was an unnecessarily flippant and impolite remark, under the circumstances. Having a highly respected grading company not be able to determine if your coin is genuine or not is certainly not a typical chance that a submitter takes. I can understand and empathize with the submitter's frustration, and am surprised that you don't seem to be able or willing to do the same.

doh

Not that it matters I guess, but the Gobrecht was a nicer coin before Stockton got his hands on it.

I'd be interested in seeing different pictures of the 78-S Trade Dollar. The eBay picture probably isn't very representative of the actual coin in hand.

relicsncoins

although it's possible that some of the diagnostics were erased when repairing the obverse, the reverse other that what appears to be some AT applied was not altered in anyway. I would think that the reverse diagnostics would be sufficient to determine the genuiness of the coin.

TomB

The Trade dollars look a bit surprising, but I haven't seen the coins in-hand. The Gobrecht, however, had much more done to it than the obvious repair in the fields and by the date. The Gobrecht had its entire surface planed down and then the fields and date area were worked on. That might make the coin much tougher to authenticate.

19Lyds

<< <i>At least PCGS took the high road and refunded your grading fees and after a reconsideration by the graders. They could have simply slapped a "DNC" grade on all three coins and you would've experienced the same result without your grading fees refunded.

If ANACS or NGC declared a coin genuine it doesn't mean that PCGS is required to honor those designations. Circulated Gobrecht and Trade dollars are notorious for being counterfeited and often it is impossible to determine authenticity just by looks alone. >>



Agree.

WoodenJefferson

<< <i>

<< <i>I decideded to sent it to PCGS so it could be in a genuine slab which is less annoying than reading about all the problems.

I disagree with this, this 1836 Gobrecht Dollar was severely altered and everything that was done to it needs to be reported for future reference. I agree with their decision NOT to put this coin into what may turn out to be a deceptive holder.

Sorry >>



I dont see how it would be deceptive. If thats the theory, then they shouldnt put any coins in genuine holders.

There was no reason not to grade those trade dollars. If this was money spent for tuition, then I sure wish I knew what I learned. PCGS wont grade trade dollars if you send them in with a repaired coin? That seems to be the only conclusion I can draw.

I have sent in coins with far worse problems that have been given genunine slabs than those two trade dollars. I dont think the chopmarked coin is a "problem coin" other than the chop marks. The dipped one is 50%er. 50% of the time they get graded, the other 50% they get bagged. >>



I did not mention the Trade Dollars in my response, I was specifically speaking about the 1836 Dollar and I said "what may become" a deceptive holder, meaning, the history of what exactly transpired to improve this coin is lost once this coin gets into a Genuine label. If you ever decided to sell this coin after it was Genuined by PCGS, and you tell the buyer everything that has transpired, the buyer may not choose to disclose what you told them when it comes time for them to sell. Now we have deception.

Alltheabove76

The Gobrecht Dollar was a problem coin before Allen worked on it and it remains one. The eye appeal is much better now though and I will just send it to NGC and have it reslabbed when it gets back. If PCGS couldnt declare it genuine alone then I would have understood.

The trade dollars were fine, genuine, and at least one was problem free. PCGS knows the difference between real and fake trade dollars. If one wasnt real, it would have been bagged for questionable authenticty. If those coins had come from the same source and their was the possibility that they could be well made counterfiets, I might buy this. They came from totally different dealers and have totally different attributes.

JupitarCoins

You take a chance when buying problem coins and then submitting them to pcgs.
I agree with the results from them.
Sorry but they know better than us.

Wolf359

<< <i>The Gobrecht Dollar was a problem coin before Allen worked on it and it remains one. The eye appeal is much better now though and I will just send it to NGC and have it reslabbed when it gets back. If PCGS couldnt declare it genuine alone then I would have understood.

The trade dollars were fine, genuine, and at least one was problem free. PCGS knows the difference between real and fake trade dollars. If one wasnt real, it would have been bagged for questionable authenticty. If those coins had come from the same source and their was the possibility that they could be well made counterfiets, I might buy this. They came from totally different dealers and have totally different attributes. >>



I'm just curios. Was this your first PCGS Submission?

I don't want to upset you, but PCGS IS THE EXPERT and their word is final. You were very fortunate to get a refund.

coinguy1

<< <i>You take a chance when buying problem coins and then submitting them to pcgs.
I agree with the results from them.
Sorry but they know better than us. >>

"Know(ing) better than us" is probably precisely the reason the submitter was so surprised that no determination was made regarding the genuineness of the coins.

Alltheabove76

<< <i>You take a chance when buying problem coins and then submitting them to pcgs.
I agree with the results from them.
Sorry but they know better than us. >>



PCGS grades chopmarked trade dollars as problem free. And they grade dipped coins as problem free. If you agree without seeing the coins then you really dont have an opinion. You are just agreeing because you like kool aid.

Alltheabove76

<< <i>

<< <i>The Gobrecht Dollar was a problem coin before Allen worked on it and it remains one. The eye appeal is much better now though and I will just send it to NGC and have it reslabbed when it gets back. If PCGS couldnt declare it genuine alone then I would have understood.

The trade dollars were fine, genuine, and at least one was problem free. PCGS knows the difference between real and fake trade dollars. If one wasnt real, it would have been bagged for questionable authenticty. If those coins had come from the same source and their was the possibility that they could be well made counterfiets, I might buy this. They came from totally different dealers and have totally different attributes. >>



I'm just curios. Was this your first PCGS Submission?

I don't want to upset you, but PCGS IS THE EXPERT and their word is final. You were very fortunate to get a refund. >>



It was my 24th. First time I have ever had a coin not grade either genuine, fake or problem free. And I had three in the same order. That is not a coincidence. Something is wrong here.

So"we dont know, it is beyond our capabilities to tell" is the final word? I think not.

doh

<< <i>I don't know for a fact but I think they would have graded the two Trade Dollars if you wouldn't have sent the 1836 Gorbrecht along with the order. >>


Without seeing better pics of the Trade Dollars this seems like a plausible answer.

RYK

<< <i>Don't buy problem coins. The problems always come back to haunt you. >>


There is some wisdom in this pithy remark. When you dismiss a problem as not being significant, you cannot assume that the next person will feel the same way.

Elsewhere, PCGS has stated that for "problem coins", placing them in Genuine holders will be at their discretion. It appears that these coins, in their judgment, did not belong in PCGS holders. That's fine, so long as they refund your money (which they did). No harm, no foul.

CaptHenway

Where's the nuke icon???

Alltheabove76

<< <i>

<< <i>Don't buy problem coins. The problems always come back to haunt you. >>


There is some wisdom in this pithy remark. When you dismiss a problem as not being significant, you cannot assume that the next person will feel the same way.

Elsewhere, PCGS has stated that for "problem coins", placing them in Genuine holders will be at their discretion. It appears that these coins, in their judgment, did not belong in PCGS holders. That's fine, so long as they refund your money (which they did). No harm, no foul. >>



Im out about $50 and wasted time. So I am a little harmed. I have felt stung on submissions many times by not getting the grade I expected or by a coin bagging I didnt expect. But this I have never seen and it just doesnt sit right. But, there is obviously nothing I can do about it. So, I will just move on. If PCGS doesnt want to take my money, other companies will I suppose. I wish someone there would have been the voice of reason and fixed this though.

WTCG

If the OP bears that much indisputable knowledge about circulated coins and can determine authenticity simply by visual inspection alone then perhaps Don W. should do this industry a service and hire the OP to a position of PCGS senior grader and a member of the board of experts. I can't think of a single person who can consistently determine authenticity going by appearance only.

Are you reading this Don? Ron Howard's (nor Mike, Charlie nor Sarge) got nothing on this guy...

Alltheabove76

<< <i>If the OP bears that much indisputable knowledge about circulated coins and can determine authenticity simply by visual inspection alone then perhaps Don W. should do this industry a service and hire the OP to a position of PCGS senior grader and a member of the board of experts...

Are you reading this Don? Ron Howard's (nor Mike, Charlie nor Sarge) got nothing on this guy... >>



Whatever. No one on their board of experts or anyone at any other TPG would have any issues with those trade dollars. Hell, one of them was already slabbed by NGC.

blu62vette

I can see the issue they have on the Gobrecht after you posted that picture. The fields are filled with putty or something like that as part of the repair. I have no problem that a rare coin that has been very worked on comes back as "we cant tell what this is". Had it not been messed with it goes in a holder. Now it has been so worked how are they to know what it is anymore?

I liked the NY on the date, kinda cool.

Yes they holder chopped Trade $ but they must feel that these are not original. That is their right and it is their duty not to put something questionable into a holder.

WTCG

<< <i>

<< <i>If the OP bears that much indisputable knowledge about circulated coins and can determine authenticity simply by visual inspection alone then perhaps Don W. should do this industry a service and hire the OP to a position of PCGS senior grader and a member of the board of experts...

Are you reading this Don? Ron Howard's (nor Mike, Charlie nor Sarge) got nothing on this guy... >>



Whatever. No one on their board of experts or anyone at any other TPG would have any issues with those trade dollars. Hell, one of them was already slabbed by NGC. >>



Again, if NGC forms an opinion about a coin (and since they slabbed it they obviously had the opportunity to inspect the coin in a raw state), PCGS is under no obligation to agree with NGC's opinion. It works the opposite way too.

Alltheabove76

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>If the OP bears that much indisputable knowledge about circulated coins and can determine authenticity simply by visual inspection alone then perhaps Don W. should do this industry a service and hire the OP to a position of PCGS senior grader and a member of the board of experts...

Are you reading this Don? Ron Howard's (nor Mike, Charlie nor Sarge) got nothing on this guy... >>



Whatever. No one on their board of experts or anyone at any other TPG would have any issues with those trade dollars. Hell, one of them was already slabbed by NGC. >>



Again, if NGC forms an opinion about a coin (and since they slabbed it they obviously had the opportunity to inspect the coin in a raw state), PCGS is under no obligation to agree with NGC's opinion. It works the opposite way too. >>



I am on the wrong forum to complain ovbviously. Too much fear and blind loyalty. Hell, I am guilty of that myself, I send most of my business to them. II have always tried to use them first. But, when I am wronged, I feel I have a right to say so.

In this case, I got penalized for the Gobrecht Dollar being messed with. They just threw out my whole order. I dont think that was fair. Again, PCGS knows the difference between real and fake trade dollars. There is just no way that two completely different trade dollars that originated from different places would perplex their graders so much that they would have to throw in the towel on them. This is PCGS we are talking about, not SEGS.

MrEureka

The Gobrecht I kinda understand them not being able to tell genuine or not as it has had a lot done to it and while it's in a better state now as far as eye appeal.....some of the tell tale disgonistics have problem been removed due to the repair.

Although there may or may not be enough "diagnostics" remaining on this particular coin to make the call, diagnostics can be destroyed in many different ways, and coins can become beyond authentication. BTW, it's good to see PCGS aware of this. I'm not convinced that they always were.

WoodenJefferson

Fear and blind loyalty? The grading services act as a protector of sorts to the hobby in general. Your taking this way to personal and when those feelings get involved, rational thought is thrown out the window.

I also agree that there have been a couple of jabs thrown in your direction, you can expect that here.

Alltheabove76

<< <i>Fear and blind loyalty? The grading services act as a protector of sorts to the hobby in general. Your taking this way to personal and when those feelings get involved, rational thought is thrown out the window.

I also agree that there have been a couple of jabs thrown in your direction, you can expect that here. >>



Blind Loyalty in that people are agreeing with the assessment of the trade dollars simply because that is what PCGS said. They havent seen the coins and since I have the audacity to disagree I get sarcastic comments about needing to be on the board of experts. That isnt objective. That is just assuming that PCGS is infallible and that I am an idiot for daring to do anything other than graciously accept it.

WTCG

<< <i>I am on the wrong forum to complain ovbviously. Too much fear and blind loyalty. Hell, I am guilty of that myself, I send most of my business to them. II have always tried to use them first. But, when I am wronged, I feel I have a right to say so.

In this case, I got penalized for the Gobrecht Dollar being messed with. They just threw out my whole order. I dont think that was fair. Again, PCGS knows the difference between real and fake trade dollars. There is just no way that two completely different trade dollars that originated from different places would perplex their graders so much that they would have to throw in the towel on them. This is PCGS we are talking about, not SEGS. >>



It's not blind loyalty and you shouldn't use that as an excuse when others observe your issue from an arm's length and draw observations that you don't like.

crypto79

<< <i>

<< <i>You take a chance when buying problem coins and then submitting them to pcgs.
I agree with the results from them.
Sorry but they know better than us. >>



PCGS grades chopmarked trade dollars as problem free. And they grade dipped coins as problem free. If you agree without seeing the coins then you really dont have an opinion. You are just agreeing because you like kool aid. >>



This is not true, PCGS grade Chop Marked Dollars as Chop Marked not problem free. They don't cross in the registry and they sure don't bring the same money. I argee with an earlier poster that 1836 does not belong in a PCGS holder as the problems would only be harder to see and got lost to time.

Alltheabove76

<< <i>

<< <i>I am on the wrong forum to complain ovbviously. Too much fear and blind loyalty. Hell, I am guilty of that myself, I send most of my business to them. II have always tried to use them first. But, when I am wronged, I feel I have a right to say so.

In this case, I got penalized for the Gobrecht Dollar being messed with. They just threw out my whole order. I dont think that was fair. Again, PCGS knows the difference between real and fake trade dollars. There is just no way that two completely different trade dollars that originated from different places would perplex their graders so much that they would have to throw in the towel on them. This is PCGS we are talking about, not SEGS. >>



It's not blind loyalty and you shouldn't use that as an excuse when others observe your issue from an arm's length and draw observations that you don't like. >>



I disagree. I dont think that any person who I took this case too in real life would think that this was a proper outcome for my submission. I have been around coins too long and have seen enough coins in PCGS holders to know what fits. This was something weird that probably would not happen twice. I am so tempted to resubmit the trade dollars alone. And if they graded, and I posted them, people here would still find a way to tell me that what happened this time was still justified.

Alltheabove76

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>You take a chance when buying problem coins and then submitting them to pcgs.
I agree with the results from them.
Sorry but they know better than us. >>



PCGS grades chopmarked trade dollars as problem free. And they grade dipped coins as problem free. If you agree without seeing the coins then you really dont have an opinion. You are just agreeing because you like kool aid. >>



This is not true, PCGS grade Chop Marked Dollars as Chop Marked not problem free. They don't cross in the registry and they sure don't bring the same money. I argee with an earlier poster that 1836 does not belong in a PCGS holder as the problems would only be harder to see and got lost to time. >>



They are considered a variety and get normal grades. Not "genuine" grades unless something other than the chopmarks are wrong with them.