It's a killer coin, but the fact that the buyer is a charitable entity should not be separated from discussion about the price. It's really nothing like two individuals buying and selling a coin. IMHO, the benefits of this ownership arrangement are much greater than even the difference between buying a coin with pre-tax dollars and buying a coin with after-tax dollars. Anyone can check out the foundation's annual tax reporting by creating a free account at GuideStar. The foundation's reports for 2006, 2007, and 2008 are available for free. Anyone can see the people involved in this foundation, the donors, the operational expenses, losses, etc. and get a feel for the foundation. After reading the reports myself, Cardinal strikes me as a hell of sharp guy. Check them out yourself for an afternoon of tax fun.
Congratulations on purchasing one of the greatest coins, I was fortunate to see it when the coin was on display.
This was reported in the local newspaper, which is rare for anything to do with numismatics, "Experts say the 1794 coin, if not the first U.S. silver dollar ever minted, is clearly the first of those still in existence."
You stated earlier:
<< <i>The coin is from the earliest known state of the dies, the only die state showing no die wear or damage....fact >>
<< <i>The coin is currently the only known specimen in existence from the earliest die state....fact >>
Is this in comparison to the high grade 1794 dollars only? If not, how can the die state (or die stage) be determined with certainty from the heavily worn examples of the 138 or so 1794 dollars that are known?
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
<< <i>I think this coin could easily sell for $10 million or more. Compare it to many other rarities (not just the coin market).
Time will tell, but I don't think too many people have lost money buying the rarest of rare coins and holding them.
Congratulations to Martin for stepping up and adding this great coin to his collection! >>
Wow - Don Willis was right!
<< <i>Of course it will. Just not in our lifetimes. >>
And I was quite wrong...
For what it's worth, Martin and I had a discussion several months ago where I apologized in person for some of the things said in this thread. I learned a lot about 1794 dollars over the past three years and the economy has recovered quite nicely since then as well. It is absolutely true that neither of the MS66's would be available even at $5M prior to this sale. It is absolutely true that the owner of the MS64 turned down $2M [in fact, $2.75M a few months ago]. I also learned that I was looking in the wrong place on the third hair curl - once I looked in the right place I could see what he was talking about. I spent many, many hours on his fantastic book and came to realize that he was more than likely right.
<< <i>I'd like to reiterate that its a great coin - one of my favorites - and I'm very happy that Martin owns it. There's no one on the planet who will appreciate it more than cardinal. I was in error when I alluded it won't be worth $10M in our lifetimes. In fact, at the appreciation rate its shown even with my own estimate of value, it will exceed that value in short order.
I'd like to commend Martin for stepping up and accomplishing his dream. Congratulations. >>
<< <i>TDN, amazing 180 deg turnaround from your May 2010 views. Had fun reading all the earlier comments on this coin. Perceptions can change.
Was this coin purchased for the Knoxville collection in early 1990's out of auction or did it kick around for a while until ending up there? >>
I think Parrino bought it out of Superior sale and sold it to Knoxville.
At the time, even though it was a dream coin, I thought Cardinal paid too much. I was too vocal in my opinion and apologized to him later for it. And, by the end of the thread, I realized that he was right - that sometimes when you are buying something very special you just have to do it.
I remember my head spinning when this thread was first launched. I remember TDN recanting after a couple of days and admitting that this was indeed a 10M coin in his lifetime. Who knew it would be just 2.5 years later and he would be the buyer. Wow. I totally forgot Don Willis's call.....nice.
I'm so glad this thread was brought back to life as Martin listed the #2-#5 1794 dollars I asked TDN about with all the info I was looking for. I knew I had seen it before. This forum is the gift that keeps on giving. I think I will read this tread yet again
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I still don't understand the rationale behind this coin being a specimen presentation coin and not having the surfaces as nice as could be managed for the time (planchet in this case). I know I have seen many coins vastly older than this with proof like and early strike status but have not been considered THE first strike.
Think I can rest with earliest known die state if that is so.
Anyway, nice coin & hope Legend et al does well with it.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
I really respect the fact that TDN has simply stated that he was in error in his prior opinions on the coin (in this case on prior value). It's that simple. On a much smaller scale (and a slightly different situation, but one that I can relate to), I have sold a couple coins in my time where I thought I was keeping the better coin for my quarter set, but it turned out I was mistaken or at least the coins were probably equals. My customer resubmitted the coin I sold to him and it upgraded and then became pop 1 for the grade. It has happened twice recently (on coins I sold years ago) and in both cases I have stepped up and paid WAY more than I sold the coin for in the first place to get it back. In the most recent case this past week, well over 400% of the original cost! I simply determined I had made a mistake selling the coin in the first place ... plain and simple. Not sure if that is exactly the same, but it is the same end result ... I have the coin back and I couldn't be happier!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Interesting reading all the way around and congratulations Cardinal!
Consider this ... Cardinal basically paid a touch over 6,500 ozs. of pure gold to buy this dollar coin. Let's come back in 3-5 years and measure the exact cost of this coin vis a vis a 6,500 oz. gold position. We will all have a much better idea of how "well he did" on this purchase. In the meantime (or forever), you can't put a value on the special feeling Cardinal has towards this coin. Obviously, he would not have felt the same way towards a room full of 6,500 ozs. of gold. And, consider this ... when measured against a key piece of artwork, the entire cost of this coin could be just the "buyers' fee" on such a painting purchased at auction!
Wondercoin >>
Astute observation from page 4 of the original thread!
At today's gold price ($1,659.30 bid), 6,500 ozs. would come to $10.785M.
Congratulations to TDN, Legend and Cardinal on the sale
Steve: Thanks for bringing that up ... I had forgotten about it.
Yes, gold outperformed this mega rarity and that is even with gold being down 3% in the past 12 months! Additionally, you do not have the selling expense with gold that you do with this coin. No doubt Stacks/Bowers returned a decent portion of the buyers' fee to Martin but the typical buy/sell spread on a large bullion transaction is between 1%-2%. In other words, gold did even better than the raw numbers when looking at the net numbers.
So, to repeat my observation, Legend essentially paid 6,033 ozs. of gold for this coin with gold spot at $1,660/oz. Let's once again come back in 3-5 years and see how this mega rarity performed as compared to a 6,033 oz. gold position. That should be interesting.
Also, consider that it would have cost Martin 6,500 ozs. of gold for this coin when he purchased it. But, it only cost Legend 6,033 ozs. of gold to buy it this week! If this trend continues in less than 100 years Oreville's heirs will be able to purchase this coin if he starts stocking up on gold bullion ASAP!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
Congratulations on purchasing one of the greatest coins, I was fortunate to see it when the coin was on display.
This was reported in the local newspaper, which is rare for anything to do with numismatics, "Experts say the 1794 coin, if not the first U.S. silver dollar ever minted, is clearly the first of those still in existence."
You stated earlier:
<< <i>The coin is from the earliest known state of the dies, the only die state showing no die wear or damage....fact >>
<< <i>The coin is currently the only known specimen in existence from the earliest die state....fact >>
Is this in comparison to the high grade 1794 dollars only? If not, how can the die state (or die stage) be determined with certainty from the heavily worn examples of the 138 or so 1794 dollars that are known?
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>I think this coin could easily sell for $10 million or more. Compare it to many other rarities (not just the coin market).
Time will tell, but I don't think too many people have lost money buying the rarest of rare coins and holding them.
Congratulations to Martin for stepping up and adding this great coin to his collection! >>
Wow - Don Willis was right!
<< <i>Of course it will. Just not in our lifetimes. >>
And I was quite wrong...
For what it's worth, Martin and I had a discussion several months ago where I apologized in person for some of the things said in this thread. I learned a lot about 1794 dollars over the past three years and the economy has recovered quite nicely since then as well. It is absolutely true that neither of the MS66's would be available even at $5M prior to this sale. It is absolutely true that the owner of the MS64 turned down $2M [in fact, $2.75M a few months ago]. I also learned that I was looking in the wrong place on the third hair curl - once I looked in the right place I could see what he was talking about. I spent many, many hours on his fantastic book and came to realize that he was more than likely right.
<< <i>I'd like to reiterate that its a great coin - one of my favorites - and I'm very happy that Martin owns it. There's no one on the planet who will appreciate it more than cardinal. I was in error when I alluded it won't be worth $10M in our lifetimes. In fact, at the appreciation rate its shown even with my own estimate of value, it will exceed that value in short order.
I'd like to commend Martin for stepping up and accomplishing his dream. Congratulations. >>
Whew - not as wrong as I thought I was.
Was this coin purchased for the Knoxville collection in early 1990's out of auction or did it kick around for a while until ending up there?
<< <i>TDN, amazing 180 deg turnaround from your May 2010 views. Had fun reading all the earlier comments on this coin. Perceptions can change.
Was this coin purchased for the Knoxville collection in early 1990's out of auction or did it kick around for a while until ending up there? >>
I think Parrino bought it out of Superior sale and sold it to Knoxville.
At the time, even though it was a dream coin, I thought Cardinal paid too much. I was too vocal in my opinion and apologized to him later for it. And, by the end of the thread, I realized that he was right - that sometimes when you are buying something very special you just have to do it.
I'm so glad this thread was brought back to life as Martin listed the #2-#5 1794 dollars I asked TDN about with all the info I was looking for. I knew I had seen it before. This forum is the gift that keeps on giving. I think I will read this tread yet again
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think this coin could easily sell for $10 million or more. >>
Of course it will. Just not in our lifetimes.
I am not so sure about that. >>
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Its interesting (to me) how the perception if value changes in such a short period of time.
TDN, I hope you enjoy that wonderful coin as much as Cardinal. Congratulations.
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
Think I can rest with earliest known die state if that is so.
Anyway, nice coin & hope Legend et al does well with it.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Wondercoin
Congrats on your change of view and new purchase TDN. What a great addition to your collection.
Do I see a complete high grade set of dollars 1794-1885 in the near future
<< <i>Interesting reading all the way around and congratulations Cardinal!
Consider this ... Cardinal basically paid a touch over 6,500 ozs. of pure gold to buy this dollar coin. Let's come back in 3-5 years and measure the exact cost of this coin vis a vis a 6,500 oz. gold position. We will all have a much better idea of how "well he did" on this purchase. In the meantime (or forever), you can't put a value on the special feeling Cardinal has towards this coin. Obviously, he would not have felt the same way towards a room full of 6,500 ozs. of gold. And, consider this ... when measured against a key piece of artwork, the entire cost of this coin could be just the "buyers' fee" on such a painting purchased at auction!
Wondercoin >>
Astute observation from page 4 of the original thread!
At today's gold price ($1,659.30 bid), 6,500 ozs. would come to $10.785M.
Congratulations to TDN, Legend and Cardinal on the sale
Steve
Yes, gold outperformed this mega rarity and that is even with gold being down 3% in the past 12 months! Additionally, you do not have the selling expense with gold that you do with this coin. No doubt Stacks/Bowers returned a decent portion of the buyers' fee to Martin but the typical buy/sell spread on a large bullion transaction is between 1%-2%. In other words, gold did even better than the raw numbers when looking at the net numbers.
So, to repeat my observation, Legend essentially paid 6,033 ozs. of gold for this coin with gold spot at $1,660/oz. Let's once again come back in 3-5 years and see how this mega rarity performed as compared to a 6,033 oz. gold position. That should be interesting.
Also, consider that it would have cost Martin 6,500 ozs. of gold for this coin when he purchased it. But, it only cost Legend 6,033 ozs. of gold to buy it this week! If this trend continues in less than 100 years Oreville's heirs will be able to purchase this coin if he starts stocking up on gold bullion ASAP!
Wondercoin