I see in the FUN newsletter that a dealer has a buy price of $385 for 1794 dollars.
Amazing how so few facts are turned into such an elaborate story. Still, it's an amazing example of the first silver dollars.
I was trying to figure out how to say that - well put.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
The coin has an amazing price history as well. In the Amon Carter sale it sold for around a $ quarter million. Then at the peak of the 1980's coin market it fetched $1,000,000 or so. Then in the early 1990's it was auctioned off, realizing a "measly" $300K or so. Imagine having the opportunity and means to buy that coin back then, and just sit on it. One could have worked at McD's in the process......then retired this year.
I'm sure Contursi was never looking to sell this coin....that's why he made it known from the start that in his opinion the coin was worth or insured of $10,000,000 as the "first" US silver dollar struck. He came darn close to his $10 MM. Looks like the price of rarities is on the rise. This was an amazing transaction. Just that much closer to the first $10 MM single coin transaction.
A decade or so ago, when the Knoxville Collection was sold, this coin was figured at $2M. Around the same time, I paid $1.6M for the Olsen 1913 nickel - which just recently sold for appx $3.6M. I leave it to you to calculate the relative value range a comparative method would yield.
Thanks everyone! It really in an incredible coin, one that I am very pleased and honored to be associated with.
<< <i>
<< <i>Amazing how so few facts are turned into such an elaborate story. Still, it's an amazing example of the first silver dollars. >>
Well said. >>
Like many coin stories, much has been said about this coin, some true, some false, and some pure speculation, and it can be difficult to sort fact from fiction:
The coin is from the earliest known state of the dies, the only die state showing no die wear or damage....fact. The coin is currently the only known specimen in existence from the earliest die state....fact. The coin is in a superb state of preservation....fact. The coin does not possess the handling marks common to most 18th century coinage....fact. The coin does not possess the weakness of strike common to virtually all other 1794 dollars....fact. The coin possesses fully mirrored prooflike surfaces...fact. The coin possesses sharply squared off rims....fact. The coin possesses prooflike surfaces, free from handling marks, on the edges of the coin....fact. The coin was struck on a specially-prepared planchet....fact.
The coin was struck with a special purpose in mind....unproven, but circumstantial evidence suggests this likelihood. The coin was held in the U.S. Mint collection until sometime in the 1800s....undocumented speculation The coin was traded from the Mint collection to a private collector....undocumented speculation based on documented cases of such trades.
The truth is, there is no known documentary evidence of any coins being struck by the U.S. Mint in the late 18th century specifically for presentation purposes or specifically for collectors. However, it is self-evident from the coin itself that it was not a normal striking like so many other coins produced at the time. It is on that basis that PCGS certified it as a "Special Striking." It has not been labeled a proof, nor a "presentation piece," just labeled as a "special" strike. Anyone who disagrees with that assessment has not examined the coin closely outside its holder.
A decade or so ago, when the Knoxville Collection was sold, this coin was figured at $2M. Around the same time, I paid $1.6M for the Olsen 1913 nickel - which just recently sold for appx $3.6M. I leave it to you to calculate the relative value range a comparative method would yield. >>
TDN, your analysis is based on a false premise. Who "figured" the coin at $2M?
I know that several parties were given the opportunity to bid on the entire Knoxville collection, and each party came up with their own assessements of the values of each coin. I still have my spreadsheet of the Knoxville collection and a total for what I thought it was worth at the time, but that is totally irrelevant. I was not the one who purchased the Knoxville Collection, Steve Contursi did, and Steve has never stated publicly what he figured the coin at. What I can say, and this is 100% the truth, is that in marketing the collection, Jay Parrino freely told bidders that I had offered him $2 million for the 1794 dollar. Also 100% the truth is the fact that I NEVER made an offer to Parrino for the coin. His statement was a bold-faced lie to entice higher bids for the collection. So, the figure of $2M for the coin back then was purely irrelevant speculation.
Now, here is the truth about Contursi's acquisition of the coin. He figured the values of the Knoxville Collection, and figured them higher than everyone else. Based on his offer, he successfully purchased the deal. At the time, the 1794 dollar was in an NGC holder labeled as MS66. Contursi examined the coin and pointed out what he saw to the people at PCGS. PCGS examined the coin, agreed to cross it over, and concluded that it was, indeed, a special striking and labeled it as "SP66, Silver Plug." Immediately after the coin was graded by PCGS as SP66, Contursi received an offer for the coin that would have given him an immediate profit of "millions of dollars." The figure mentioned to me by a few different sources was that the offer was around $5M. Contursi rejected that offer and kept the coin ever since until May, 2010.
So.....TDN, at around the same time that your offer of $1.6M for the Olsen 1913 nickel was ACCEPTED by the prior owner, the offer of $5M for the SP66 1794 dollar was REJECTED by its owner. I leave it to you to draw your own comparative valuations for current pricing based on the recent sale of the Olsen nickel for $3.6M.
Nah, my premise was not false. I know exactly what the coin was figured at. If you believe that simply recertifying the coin added $3M to the value at the time, then I find that very interesting.
It's a great coin and I've often said I'd love to own it. But not at ANY price.
<< <i>Nah, my premise was not false. I know exactly what the coin was figured at. If you believe that simply recertifying the coin added $3M to the value at the time, then I find that very interesting.
It's a great coin and I've often said I'd love to own it. But not at ANY price. >>
I'm not saying that recertifying added value, I'm just saying the first offer that Contursi received for the coin years ago was after the coin was certified by PCGS and the offer was WAY more than $2M.
In getting my mind around the price it would take to execute this deal, I considered several factors:
1) The superb MS66 Lelan Rogers/Stellar specimen is in strong hands. I've met the owner, and he has promised to pass the collection on to the next generation of his family. This one is not going to be available within the foreseeable future.
2) The lesser MS66 Ostheimer specimen is also in strong hands, in the same collection as duplicate Class I 1804 dollars. I've met that owner as well. Will this one be on the market anytime soon? I seriously doubt it will be available during my lifetime.
3) The former PCGS MS63 (now PCGS MS64) Norweb coin is also in strong hands, currently owned by a friend of a friend. The owner turned down a $2M offer from my friend two years ago. I was informed that the owner briefly considered selling it earlier this year, with an asking price of $3.5M. He received another offer of $2M, rejected that offer, and is now building a new set around the coin -- already adding a mid-six-figure companion coin to the collection. I don't see that one available south of $3M anytime soon, if ever.
4) The former PCGS MS61 (now PCGS MS62) French Family specimen is in strong hands as well, with a notable bust dollar collector. I've spoken with than owner on several occasions. He loves his collection and sees himself holding on to it at least until he's old and gray (and he's still quite young). Will this one be available anytime soon? Nah.
5) The Amon Carter coin has incredible quality, and it really truly has blazing mirrored surfaces. I have examined many, many 1794 dollars across the entire spectrum of grades, and none are like it. It is a one of a kind piece. TDN, you can't really appreciate this coin without seeing it raw yourself. The mirrors are as good as the PCGS PR65CAM 1802 dollar and PCGS PR66CAM 1803 dollar I used to own. That is why I am so impressed with it and confident of its value.
That covers ALL of the PCGS-graded uncirculated specimens. 4 coins in strong collector hands not likely to be sold in the foreseeable future, plus the Amon Carter coin owned by someone who might consider cashing in his investment, if the time was right.
So, I had to explore the opportunity of acquiring the coin. Let's say I balked at the stated "insured" value, made no offers of my own, and just let the opportunity pass to the owners of the Ostheimer coin, or some other major collector. When would I get my next opportunity? Probably never, and if I did, what would be the price them? What's a 1792 J-1 worth these days? The last PCGS graded specimen sold at auction (2006) realized $253,000 for a coin graded F-15. Compare this to the Hain Family specimen sold in 2001 for $414,000. That coin later graded MS64 by PCGS, and was purchased at auction by the owners of the Ostheimer 1794 dollar. At $414,000, they outbid EVERYBODY else. No one else thought the coin was worth any more than that at that time; now the coin is worth multiples higher. (Of course, the J-1 is a rarer item, but my point is that the prices of such high profile pieces just don't seem to be flat over extended periods of time.)
Ultimately, with the assistance of Greg Roberts of Spectrum as the agent working on my behalf, a price was reached that I could justify and the seller could accept, and the deal was struck.
Interesting reading all the way around and congratulations Cardinal!
Consider this ... Cardinal basically paid a touch over 6,500 ozs. of pure gold to buy this dollar coin. Let's come back in 3-5 years and measure the exact cost of this coin vis a vis a 6,500 oz. gold position. We will all have a much better idea of how "well he did" on this purchase. In the meantime (or forever), you can't put a value on the special feeling Cardinal has towards this coin. Obviously, he would not have felt the same way towards a room full of 6,500 ozs. of gold. And, consider this ... when measured against a key piece of artwork, the entire cost of this coin could be just the "buyers' fee" on such a painting purchased at auction!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>The coin has an amazing price history as well. In the Amon Carter sale it sold for around a $ quarter million. Then at the peak of the 1980's coin market it fetched $1,000,000 or so. Then in the early 1990's it was auctioned off, realizing a "measly" $300K or so. Imagine having the opportunity and means to buy that coin back then, and just sit on it. One could have worked at McD's in the process......then retired this year.
I'm sure Contursi was never looking to sell this coin....that's why he made it known from the start that in his opinion the coin was worth or insured of $10,000,000 as the "first" US silver dollar struck. He came darn close to his $10 MM. Looks like the price of rarities is on the rise. This was an amazing transaction. Just that much closer to the first $10 MM single coin transaction.
Longacre your comment cracked me up.
roadrunner >>
Well wasn't Steve quoted as saying that he was made an offer that he couldn't refuse? I have plenty of things that I have NO intention of selling. One of which is a very rare car, a Porsche 356. However, offer me $200,000 for it? It's yours.
I think that's what happened here.
Bear's "Growl of Approval" award 10/09 & 3/10 | "YOU SUCK" - PonyExpress8|"F the doctors!" - homerunhall | I hate my car
<< <i>The coin has an amazing price history as well. In the Amon Carter sale it sold for around a $ quarter million. Then at the peak of the 1980's coin market it fetched $1,000,000 or so. Then in the early 1990's it was auctioned off, realizing a "measly" $300K or so. Imagine having the opportunity and means to buy that coin back then, and just sit on it. One could have worked at McD's in the process......then retired this year.
I'm sure Contursi was never looking to sell this coin....that's why he made it known from the start that in his opinion the coin was worth or insured of $10,000,000 as the "first" US silver dollar struck. He came darn close to his $10 MM. Looks like the price of rarities is on the rise. This was an amazing transaction. Just that much closer to the first $10 MM single coin transaction.
Longacre your comment cracked me up.
roadrunner >>
Well wasn't Steve quoted as saying that he was made an offer that he couldn't refuse? I have plenty of things that I have NO intention of selling. One of which is a very rare car, a Porsche 356. However, offer me $200,000 for it? It's yours.
I think that's what happened here. >>
But do you market your Porsche, as this coin was marketed by the owner who was "never looking to sell it"?
Far more importantly, however, congratulations to Martin, who is an absolute gentleman of a collector and as informed as any collector I know of.
The only way an MS64 1794 dollar is woth $3.5M is as a tradein on this coin - if you catch my drift
I think it's awesome that you ended up with a coin you obviously love so much - I just think it best that you have your eyes wide open as to its value. I've made an awful lot of money the past decade by buying the right coins at aggressive prices - don't you think I totally get the concept? I was shocked by this price - not 10% or 20% shocked - one almost always has to do so - but 50% shocked. I value the coin at $4M or so.
When your book came out and you assigned values to these coins, I had to laugh at some of them. 1794 dollar are NOT classic rarities. They're awesome coins, no doubt, but they're a tier below. They can't be elevated by a TPG insert or a few years of hype.
Thanks for sharing your thought process on this one Cardinal... very interesting to read.
Plus there is definitley some "coolness" factor in being involved in the biggest coin transaction for a single coin to date. Especially since it's a special one of a kind coin unlike the previous record holder, the 1933 $20.
Textthe value of anything is what 2 or more parties are willing to pay, in this case the current value as of today appears to be 8 million.
Sorry, but I disagree completely. Just because someone pays $90k for a 1941-S half or $60k for a 1951-S half doesn't make them worth that - as was evidenced upon their subsequent sale.
IMHO, the coin would not fetch $5M in auction - and only get close to that because it has a new price history. It's not a classic rarity and how many coins have exceeded $5M?
The main reason that I'm asserting so is so that Cardinal can plan his finances accordingly. One really needs to know multiple value points when one puts that much money into a single coin. While we all want to think we are immune from economic forces - we rarely are in such a position.
<< <i>When your book came out and you assigned values to these coins, I had to laugh at some of them. 1794 dollar are NOT classic rarities. They're awesome coins, no doubt, but they're a tier below. They can't be elevated by a TPG insert or a few years of hype. >>
Yes, the valuations listed in the book for the mint state coins were very speculative at the time of publication. How many of the top 3 coins were sold between then and now for comparison purposes to guide my purchase? And, while one might figure the MS66 coins at $5M, do I think that Stellar or the Pogues would sell theirs for that price? Myself, I don't think so.
<< <i>the value of anything is what 2 or more parties are willing to pay, in this case the current value as of today appears to be 8 million.
Sorry, but I disagree completely. Just because someone pays $90k for a 1941-S half or $60k for a 1951-S half doesn't make them worth that - as was evidenced upon their subsequent sale. >>
I agree with your statement in theory. But I do have to say, I (for one) consider the 1794 dollar to be elevated to a status somewhat above 1941-S and FBL 1953-S halves.
<< <i>IMHO, the coin would not fetch $5M in auction - and only get close to that because it has a new price history. It's not a classic rarity and how many coins have exceeded $5M?
The main reason that I'm asserting so is so that Cardinal can plan his finances accordingly. One really needs to know multiple value points when one puts that much money into a single coin. While we all want to think we are immune from economic forces - we rarely are in such a position. >>
So, noted. I appreciate your brotherly concern and advice. Greg Roberts provided months' worth of counsel and advice throughout the process as well, leading up to the final purchase. (He was actually the one handling the negotiations directly with Contursi, and advising me along the way.) My eyes are wide open.
I had lunch with a collector earlier this year who showed me an item that sold at auction for around $5,000 (the highest one had ever sold for in history). He told me he was the underbidder and really wanted it. After extensive negotiations, he told me the winning buyer at auction demanded $75,000 for the item (not a penny less) and he paid it. He basically told me he grossly overpaid, but he decided that he HAD to have it. Not too much different a story than paying $90k for a 1941-S half the way I see it. The only difference might be this $75,000 guy really "had to have it" and has no plans of selling in his lifetime (so there may never be a subsequent sale to prove the likely overpayment).
Wondercoin
P.S. I agree with Don. But, what will 6,500 ozs. of pure gold will be in 5-10 years? That is certainly one question to ponder.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I think that you need to look at the coin in the right context. And I have been giving this a bit of thought today actually.
First, as Cardinal said, find another one that will be available on the market in the forseeable future.
Second, this is clearly an exceptional coin, even in the context of Mint State 1794 dollars.
Now, if I were in the position to buy such a coin, and if I collected early American coinage, I think that I would have a very difficult time turning this coin down. Period.
I've seen this happen with rare collectibles time and time again, you get to the point where you haev an item available on the market that serious players can afford and it's a case of "When will you EVER have a chance to obtain one again?". Sky's the limit pricewise. TDN makes some VERY valid points about return on investment, but I am of the opinion that while certainly it was considered, that Cardinal bought this piece for its' collectible value first. IMO the coin is now likely in very strong hands and I doubt we'll see it for sale again anytime soon.
In fact, Cardinal, would you sell this coin, today, for a $2,000,000 profit?
Bear's "Growl of Approval" award 10/09 & 3/10 | "YOU SUCK" - PonyExpress8|"F the doctors!" - homerunhall | I hate my car
While there are various reasons why collectors are willing to pay millions of dollars for the various "elite" coins, most of the time, I can't imagine paying the money they paid. Many of them are valuable because other collectors "said" they're valuable, and so the value of the coin continues to be maintained by collectors who also believe a coin to be "valuable" even though there are comparable coins which are valued for far less but which are just as "significant. While all coins' values are based only what people are willing to pay (in other words, they're valued based on a non-intrinsic valuation process ), some coins have a lot more significance than the well-publicized "elite coins." I find many less publicized coins to be far more interesting, historically significant, and the designs themselves are more attractive as well. In the case of the 1794 dollar, I can more easily understand the buyer's having paid what he paid for the coin. It is a really amazing coin, and significant as one of the first U.S. coins, and our first silver dollar. It's also a beautiful design, and has survived in amazingly great condition. The price seems high to me, but I would far rather have it than a 1913 v-nickel or a 1933 double eagle.
<< <i>For those who feel the price is extreme, we do not. The coin is unique, high quality, and wildly historical. There is nothing else like it. We strongly believe should the new owner have the long term holding power, when sold, this coin will yet again break all pricing records. >>
You guys make coin history and that's great for all coin enthusiasts and the hobby. Thank you for providing a glimpse of yourselves here. Even moreso for communicating about the coins, which is KEY to this being a wholesome hobby.
That's all I care about. Congratulations on a great coin. There's no one in the world who will appreciate it more. >>
Thank you! The coin will be in a very appreciative home for years to come.
<< <i> Of course it will. Just not in our lifetimes.
Speak for yourself! I'm munching on celery and granola and biding my time! >>
I consider myself a young guy as well, with at least another 60+ years to go (based on family history), so we will see.
In any case, TDN, I guess what I can take from your comments is that if it were to sell for over $10 million during our lifetimes, it won't be selling to you.
<< <i>In fact, Cardinal, would you sell this coin, today, for a $2,000,000 profit? >>
Not ready to sell it just yet; that would be anti-climactic.
But I will say, I have already been contacted by an uber millionaire wanting first shot for whenever I am ready to let it go.
That's all I care about. Congratulations on a great coin. There's no one in the world who will appreciate it more. >>
Thank you! The coin will be in a very appreciate home for years to come.
<< <i> Of course it will. Just not in our lifetimes.
Speak for yourself! I'm munching on celery and granola and biding my time! >>
I consider myself a young guy as well, with at least another 60+ years to go (based on family history), so we will see.
In any case, TDN, I guess what I can take from your comments is that if it were to sell for over $10 million during our lifetimes, it won't be selling to you.
<< <i>In fact, Cardinal, would you sell this coin, today, for a $2,000,000 profit? >>
Not ready to sell it just yet; that would be anti-climactic.
But I will say, I have already been contacted by an uber millionaire wanting first shot for whenever I am ready to let it go. >>
So Martin, what was your reply to TDN when he contacted you?
Comments
Great coin! Congrats.
<< <i>I'd take that puppy in any TPG's holder. Bean, no bean. Plus, no plus.
Great coin! Congrats. >>
In a PCGS Genuine Only holder too!
<< <i>No Plus, no sticker, and therefore no interest.
Off your meds again??
<< <i>
<< <i>No Plus, no sticker, and therefore no interest.
Off your meds again??
<< <i>No Plus, no sticker, and therefore no interest.
94 Kia with 225k miles for you.
<< <i>Amazing how so few facts are turned into such an elaborate story. Still, it's an amazing example of the first silver dollars. >>
Well said.
Amazing how so few facts are turned into such an elaborate story. Still, it's an amazing example of the first silver dollars.
I was trying to figure out how to say that - well put.
I'm sure Contursi was never looking to sell this coin....that's why he made it known from the start that in his opinion the coin was worth or insured of $10,000,000 as the "first" US silver dollar struck. He came darn close to his $10 MM. Looks like the price of rarities is on the rise. This was an amazing transaction. Just that much closer to the first $10 MM single coin transaction.
Longacre your comment cracked me up.
roadrunner
A decade or so ago, when the Knoxville Collection was sold, this coin was figured at $2M. Around the same time, I paid $1.6M for the Olsen 1913 nickel - which just recently sold for appx $3.6M. I leave it to you to calculate the relative value range a comparative method would yield.
<< <i>
<< <i>Amazing how so few facts are turned into such an elaborate story. Still, it's an amazing example of the first silver dollars. >>
Well said. >>
Like many coin stories, much has been said about this coin, some true, some false, and some pure speculation, and it can be difficult to sort fact from fiction:
The coin is from the earliest known state of the dies, the only die state showing no die wear or damage....fact.
The coin is currently the only known specimen in existence from the earliest die state....fact.
The coin is in a superb state of preservation....fact.
The coin does not possess the handling marks common to most 18th century coinage....fact.
The coin does not possess the weakness of strike common to virtually all other 1794 dollars....fact.
The coin possesses fully mirrored prooflike surfaces...fact.
The coin possesses sharply squared off rims....fact.
The coin possesses prooflike surfaces, free from handling marks, on the edges of the coin....fact.
The coin was struck on a specially-prepared planchet....fact.
The coin was struck with a special purpose in mind....unproven, but circumstantial evidence suggests this likelihood.
The coin was held in the U.S. Mint collection until sometime in the 1800s....undocumented speculation
The coin was traded from the Mint collection to a private collector....undocumented speculation based on documented cases of such trades.
The truth is, there is no known documentary evidence of any coins being struck by the U.S. Mint in the late 18th century specifically for presentation purposes or specifically for collectors. However, it is self-evident from the coin itself that it was not a normal striking like so many other coins produced at the time. It is on that basis that PCGS certified it as a "Special Striking." It has not been labeled a proof, nor a "presentation piece," just labeled as a "special" strike. Anyone who disagrees with that assessment has not examined the coin closely outside its holder.
<< <i>I look at it this way:
A decade or so ago, when the Knoxville Collection was sold, this coin was figured at $2M. Around the same time, I paid $1.6M for the Olsen 1913 nickel - which just recently sold for appx $3.6M. I leave it to you to calculate the relative value range a comparative method would yield. >>
TDN, your analysis is based on a false premise. Who "figured" the coin at $2M?
I know that several parties were given the opportunity to bid on the entire Knoxville collection, and each party came up with their own assessements of the values of each coin. I still have my spreadsheet of the Knoxville collection and a total for what I thought it was worth at the time, but that is totally irrelevant. I was not the one who purchased the Knoxville Collection, Steve Contursi did, and Steve has never stated publicly what he figured the coin at. What I can say, and this is 100% the truth, is that in marketing the collection, Jay Parrino freely told bidders that I had offered him $2 million for the 1794 dollar. Also 100% the truth is the fact that I NEVER made an offer to Parrino for the coin. His statement was a bold-faced lie to entice higher bids for the collection. So, the figure of $2M for the coin back then was purely irrelevant speculation.
Now, here is the truth about Contursi's acquisition of the coin. He figured the values of the Knoxville Collection, and figured them higher than everyone else. Based on his offer, he successfully purchased the deal. At the time, the 1794 dollar was in an NGC holder labeled as MS66. Contursi examined the coin and pointed out what he saw to the people at PCGS. PCGS examined the coin, agreed to cross it over, and concluded that it was, indeed, a special striking and labeled it as "SP66, Silver Plug." Immediately after the coin was graded by PCGS as SP66, Contursi received an offer for the coin that would have given him an immediate profit of "millions of dollars." The figure mentioned to me by a few different sources was that the offer was around $5M. Contursi rejected that offer and kept the coin ever since until May, 2010.
So.....TDN, at around the same time that your offer of $1.6M for the Olsen 1913 nickel was ACCEPTED by the prior owner, the offer of $5M for the SP66 1794 dollar was REJECTED by its owner. I leave it to you to draw your own comparative valuations for current pricing based on the recent sale of the Olsen nickel for $3.6M.
It's a great coin and I've often said I'd love to own it. But not at ANY price.
<< <i>Nah, my premise was not false. I know exactly what the coin was figured at. If you believe that simply recertifying the coin added $3M to the value at the time, then I find that very interesting.
It's a great coin and I've often said I'd love to own it. But not at ANY price. >>
I'm not saying that recertifying added value, I'm just saying the first offer that Contursi received for the coin years ago was after the coin was certified by PCGS and the offer was WAY more than $2M.
In getting my mind around the price it would take to execute this deal, I considered several factors:
1) The superb MS66 Lelan Rogers/Stellar specimen is in strong hands. I've met the owner, and he has promised to pass the collection on to the next generation of his family. This one is not going to be available within the foreseeable future.
2) The lesser MS66 Ostheimer specimen is also in strong hands, in the same collection as duplicate Class I 1804 dollars. I've met that owner as well. Will this one be on the market anytime soon? I seriously doubt it will be available during my lifetime.
3) The former PCGS MS63 (now PCGS MS64) Norweb coin is also in strong hands, currently owned by a friend of a friend. The owner turned down a $2M offer from my friend two years ago. I was informed that the owner briefly considered selling it earlier this year, with an asking price of $3.5M. He received another offer of $2M, rejected that offer, and is now building a new set around the coin -- already adding a mid-six-figure companion coin to the collection. I don't see that one available south of $3M anytime soon, if ever.
4) The former PCGS MS61 (now PCGS MS62) French Family specimen is in strong hands as well, with a notable bust dollar collector. I've spoken with than owner on several occasions. He loves his collection and sees himself holding on to it at least until he's old and gray (and he's still quite young). Will this one be available anytime soon? Nah.
5) The Amon Carter coin has incredible quality, and it really truly has blazing mirrored surfaces. I have examined many, many 1794 dollars across the entire spectrum of grades, and none are like it. It is a one of a kind piece. TDN, you can't really appreciate this coin without seeing it raw yourself. The mirrors are as good as the PCGS PR65CAM 1802 dollar and PCGS PR66CAM 1803 dollar I used to own. That is why I am so impressed with it and confident of its value.
That covers ALL of the PCGS-graded uncirculated specimens. 4 coins in strong collector hands not likely to be sold in the foreseeable future, plus the Amon Carter coin owned by someone who might consider cashing in his investment, if the time was right.
So, I had to explore the opportunity of acquiring the coin. Let's say I balked at the stated "insured" value, made no offers of my own, and just let the opportunity pass to the owners of the Ostheimer coin, or some other major collector. When would I get my next opportunity? Probably never, and if I did, what would be the price them? What's a 1792 J-1 worth these days? The last PCGS graded specimen sold at auction (2006) realized $253,000 for a coin graded F-15. Compare this to the Hain Family specimen sold in 2001 for $414,000. That coin later graded MS64 by PCGS, and was purchased at auction by the owners of the Ostheimer 1794 dollar. At $414,000, they outbid EVERYBODY else. No one else thought the coin was worth any more than that at that time; now the coin is worth multiples higher. (Of course, the J-1 is a rarer item, but my point is that the prices of such high profile pieces just don't seem to be flat over extended periods of time.)
Ultimately, with the assistance of Greg Roberts of Spectrum as the agent working on my behalf, a price was reached that I could justify and the seller could accept, and the deal was struck.
Consider this ... Cardinal basically paid a touch over 6,500 ozs. of pure gold to buy this dollar coin. Let's come back in 3-5 years and measure the exact cost of this coin vis a vis a 6,500 oz. gold position. We will all have a much better idea of how "well he did" on this purchase. In the meantime (or forever), you can't put a value on the special feeling Cardinal has towards this coin. Obviously, he would not have felt the same way towards a room full of 6,500 ozs. of gold. And, consider this ... when measured against a key piece of artwork, the entire cost of this coin could be just the "buyers' fee" on such a painting purchased at auction!
Wondercoin
Ron
<< <i>The coin has an amazing price history as well. In the Amon Carter sale it sold for around a $ quarter million. Then at the peak of the 1980's coin market it fetched $1,000,000 or so. Then in the early 1990's it was auctioned off, realizing a "measly" $300K or so. Imagine having the opportunity and means to buy that coin back then, and just sit on it. One could have worked at McD's in the process......then retired this year.
I'm sure Contursi was never looking to sell this coin....that's why he made it known from the start that in his opinion the coin was worth or insured of $10,000,000 as the "first" US silver dollar struck. He came darn close to his $10 MM. Looks like the price of rarities is on the rise. This was an amazing transaction. Just that much closer to the first $10 MM single coin transaction.
Longacre your comment cracked me up.
roadrunner >>
Well wasn't Steve quoted as saying that he was made an offer that he couldn't refuse? I have plenty of things that I have NO intention of selling. One of which is a very rare car, a Porsche 356. However, offer me $200,000 for it? It's yours.
I think that's what happened here.
<< <i>
<< <i>The coin has an amazing price history as well. In the Amon Carter sale it sold for around a $ quarter million. Then at the peak of the 1980's coin market it fetched $1,000,000 or so. Then in the early 1990's it was auctioned off, realizing a "measly" $300K or so. Imagine having the opportunity and means to buy that coin back then, and just sit on it. One could have worked at McD's in the process......then retired this year.
I'm sure Contursi was never looking to sell this coin....that's why he made it known from the start that in his opinion the coin was worth or insured of $10,000,000 as the "first" US silver dollar struck. He came darn close to his $10 MM. Looks like the price of rarities is on the rise. This was an amazing transaction. Just that much closer to the first $10 MM single coin transaction.
Longacre your comment cracked me up.
roadrunner >>
Well wasn't Steve quoted as saying that he was made an offer that he couldn't refuse? I have plenty of things that I have NO intention of selling. One of which is a very rare car, a Porsche 356. However, offer me $200,000 for it? It's yours.
I think that's what happened here. >>
But do you market your Porsche, as this coin was marketed by the owner who was "never looking to sell it"?
Far more importantly, however, congratulations to Martin, who is an absolute gentleman of a collector and as informed as any collector I know of.
I think it's awesome that you ended up with a coin you obviously love so much - I just think it best that you have your eyes wide open as to its value. I've made an awful lot of money the past decade by buying the right coins at aggressive prices - don't you think I totally get the concept? I was shocked by this price - not 10% or 20% shocked - one almost always has to do so - but 50% shocked. I value the coin at $4M or so.
When your book came out and you assigned values to these coins, I had to laugh at some of them. 1794 dollar are NOT classic rarities. They're awesome coins, no doubt, but they're a tier below. They can't be elevated by a TPG insert or a few years of hype.
Plus there is definitley some "coolness" factor in being involved in the biggest coin transaction for a single coin to date. Especially since it's a special one of a kind coin unlike the previous record holder, the 1933 $20.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Sorry, but I disagree completely. Just because someone pays $90k for a 1941-S half or $60k for a 1951-S half doesn't make them worth that - as was evidenced upon their subsequent sale.
IMHO, the coin would not fetch $5M in auction - and only get close to that because it has a new price history. It's not a classic rarity and how many coins have exceeded $5M?
The main reason that I'm asserting so is so that Cardinal can plan his finances accordingly. One really needs to know multiple value points when one puts that much money into a single coin. While we all want to think we are immune from economic forces - we rarely are in such a position.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
Correct. It only means that they were worth that price (or more!) to the buyer at the time and place of the auction.
...as was evidenced upon their subsequent sale.
Not really. A sale at a later time and place does not prove the value at an earlier date.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Is this new, or did you mean 1953-S ?
Wondercoin
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>When your book came out and you assigned values to these coins, I had to laugh at some of them. 1794 dollar are NOT classic rarities. They're awesome coins, no doubt, but they're a tier below. They can't be elevated by a TPG insert or a few years of hype. >>
Yes, the valuations listed in the book for the mint state coins were very speculative at the time of publication. How many of the top 3 coins were sold between then and now for comparison purposes to guide my purchase? And, while one might figure the MS66 coins at $5M, do I think that Stellar or the Pogues would sell theirs for that price? Myself, I don't think so.
<< <i>the value of anything is what 2 or more parties are willing to pay, in this case the current value as of today appears to be 8 million.
Sorry, but I disagree completely. Just because someone pays $90k for a 1941-S half or $60k for a 1951-S half doesn't make them worth that - as was evidenced upon their subsequent sale. >>
I agree with your statement in theory. But I do have to say, I (for one) consider the 1794 dollar to be elevated to a status somewhat above 1941-S and FBL 1953-S halves.
<< <i>IMHO, the coin would not fetch $5M in auction - and only get close to that because it has a new price history. It's not a classic rarity and how many coins have exceeded $5M?
The main reason that I'm asserting so is so that Cardinal can plan his finances accordingly. One really needs to know multiple value points when one puts that much money into a single coin. While we all want to think we are immune from economic forces - we rarely are in such a position. >>
So, noted. I appreciate your brotherly concern and advice. Greg Roberts provided months' worth of counsel and advice throughout the process as well, leading up to the final purchase. (He was actually the one handling the negotiations directly with Contursi, and advising me along the way.) My eyes are wide open.
Time will tell, but I don't think too many people have lost money buying the rarest of rare coins and holding them.
Congratulations to Martin for stepping up and adding this great coin to his collection!
That's all I care about. Congratulations on a great coin. There's no one in the world who will appreciate it more.
Yes, wondercoin - 53-S. It's a modern - I'm lucky to be w/in 2 years of the right date.
<< <i>I think this coin could easily sell for $10 million or more. >>
Of course it will. Just not in our lifetimes.
Wondercoin
P.S. I agree with Don. But, what will 6,500 ozs. of pure gold will be in 5-10 years? That is certainly one question to ponder.
Speak for yourself! I'm munching on celery and granola and biding my time!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>My eyes are wide open
That's all I care about. Congratulations on a great coin. There's no one in the world who will appreciate it more.
Yes, wondercoin - 53-S. It's a modern - I'm lucky to be w/in 2 years of the right date.
And incredibly, I think he even got the denomination right
Who is John Galt?
<< <i>
<< <i>I think this coin could easily sell for $10 million or more. >>
Of course it will. Just not in our lifetimes.
I am not so sure about that.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
First, as Cardinal said, find another one that will be available on the market in the forseeable future.
Second, this is clearly an exceptional coin, even in the context of Mint State 1794 dollars.
Now, if I were in the position to buy such a coin, and if I collected early American coinage, I think that I would have a very difficult time turning this coin down. Period.
I've seen this happen with rare collectibles time and time again, you get to the point where you haev an item available on the market that serious players can afford and it's a case of "When will you EVER have a chance to obtain one again?". Sky's the limit pricewise. TDN makes some VERY valid points about return on investment, but I am of the opinion that while certainly it was considered, that Cardinal bought this piece for its' collectible value first. IMO the coin is now likely in very strong hands and I doubt we'll see it for sale again anytime soon.
In fact, Cardinal, would you sell this coin, today, for a $2,000,000 profit?
Jon
<< <i>For those who feel the price is extreme, we do not. The coin is unique, high quality, and wildly historical. There is nothing else like it. We strongly believe should the new owner have the long term holding power, when sold, this coin will yet again break all pricing records. >>
Hmmm...
<< <i> My eyes are wide open
That's all I care about. Congratulations on a great coin. There's no one in the world who will appreciate it more. >>
Thank you! The coin will be in a very appreciative home for years to come.
<< <i> Of course it will. Just not in our lifetimes.
Speak for yourself! I'm munching on celery and granola and biding my time! >>
I consider myself a young guy as well, with at least another 60+ years to go (based on family history), so we will see.
In any case, TDN, I guess what I can take from your comments is that if it were to sell for over $10 million during our lifetimes, it won't be selling to you.
<< <i>In fact, Cardinal, would you sell this coin, today, for a $2,000,000 profit? >>
Not ready to sell it just yet; that would be anti-climactic.
But I will say, I have already been contacted by an uber millionaire wanting first shot for whenever I am ready to let it go.
<< <i>100!
<< <i> My eyes are wide open
That's all I care about. Congratulations on a great coin. There's no one in the world who will appreciate it more. >>
Thank you! The coin will be in a very appreciate home for years to come.
<< <i> Of course it will. Just not in our lifetimes.
Speak for yourself! I'm munching on celery and granola and biding my time! >>
I consider myself a young guy as well, with at least another 60+ years to go (based on family history), so we will see.
In any case, TDN, I guess what I can take from your comments is that if it were to sell for over $10 million during our lifetimes, it won't be selling to you.
<< <i>In fact, Cardinal, would you sell this coin, today, for a $2,000,000 profit? >>
Not ready to sell it just yet; that would be anti-climactic.
But I will say, I have already been contacted by an uber millionaire wanting first shot for whenever I am ready to let it go. >>
So Martin, what was your reply to TDN when he contacted you?