<< <i>For those who feel the price is extreme, we do not. The coin is unique, high quality, and wildly historical. There is nothing else like it. We strongly believe should the new owner have the long term holding power, when sold, this coin will yet again break all pricing records. >>
Hmmm... >>
Laura being politically correct? :-O. Dogs and cats, sleeping together....
Everyone's being so nice in public except me - yet in private they all say the coin's worth $5M at the most - he's buried. But at least he loves it". Sorry that I'm the only one raining on the parade here. Hey - if there's no opportunity cost, then I say go for it! ;-)
<< <i>Sorry that I'm the only one raining on the parade here. >>
Why, exactly, are you doing that publicly? Why not express your concerns to him privately via PM?
Cardinal is a big boy and he can fight his own battles. But he didn't start this thread and he didn't ask for opinions about his coin or his purchase price.
Sorry, but I've never subscribed to the dorkkarl theory that one can never pay too much for a coin. Nor do I subscribe to the theory that all negative feedback should be done via PM so that only accolades are shown in public.
It's a great coin and Martin is the best person to own it. The price realized is out of line and IMO the result of someone saying its a $10M coin over and over and over...eventually it starts to become true.
<< <i>Sorry, but I've never subscribed to the dorkkarl theory that one can never pay too much for a coin. Nor do I subscribe to the theory that all negative feedback should be done via PM so that only accolades are shown in public.
It's a great coin and Martin is the best person to own it. The price realized is out of line and IMO the result of someone saying its a $10M coin over and over and over...eventually it starts to become true. >>
I don't disagree with you on that at all, you certainly can pay too much for a coin. And I do think that Cardinal paid a lot of money for it, however like I said before, the price, or at least the purchase of the coin, does seem justifiable when you weigh in other mitigating factors. Like anything else, something is only worth what a willing buyer and a willing seller agree to, in this case it seems to be $7,850,000.
Bear's "Growl of Approval" award 10/09 & 3/10 | "YOU SUCK" - PonyExpress8|"F the doctors!" - homerunhall | I hate my car
The truth is, there is no known documentary evidence of any coins being struck by the U.S. Mint in the late 18th century specifically for presentation purposes or specifically for collectors.
Actually, there is. Mint Director Elias Boudinot sent examples of U.S. coins to Matthew Boulton at Soho in the latter part of the 1790s. The condition was not described but we can assume that only the best would have been sent.
The truth is, there is no known documentary evidence of any coins being struck by the U.S. Mint in the late 18th century specifically for presentation purposes or specifically for collectors.
Actually, there is. Mint Director Elias Boudinot sent examples of U.S. coins to Matthew Boulton at Soho in the latter part of the 1790s. The condition was not described but we can assume that only the best would have been sent.
Denga >>
Thank you for that information Denga!
However, I guess I wasn't being clear in my statement. I did not mean for it to sound like there were no recorded presentations of coins to private parties. What I meant was that there were no records (at least that I am aware of) of the Mint undertaking special procedures just to create special coins specifically for an intended VIP recipient, such as was done when the Mint produced the Class I 1804 dollars.
As you say, presumably, when Boudinot picked out the coins to be sent to Boulton, he would have selected the best available, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Boudinot went back to the coining room and said "Boys, make up some proofs for me!" and had them made to order for that purpose. (Doesn't rule that out as a possibility either. We just don't know.)
As you say, presumably, when Boudinot picked out the coins to be sent to Boulton, he would have selected the best available, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Boudinot went back to the coining room and said "Boys, make up some proofs for me!" and had them made to order for that purpose. (Doesn't rule that out as a possibility either. We just don't know.)
Presentation pieces would have been struck ‘off the books’ and not taken from current coinage as such coins belonged to depositors. The director would have furnished the silver out of his own pocket and instructed the chief coiner to strike the pieces as carefully as possible as they were meant as showpieces for Boulton to examine. Whether this meant special planchet preparation cannot now be determined.
<< <i> Everyone's being so nice in public except me - yet in private they all say the coin's worth $5M at the most - he's buried. But at least he loves it". >>
"They all say." Wow! With nearly 7 billion people in the world, that's a lot of people!
I hear you loud and clear, and I appreciate the concern. And though I firmly reserve my right to disagree with you, IF it turns out I actually am buried in it....so be it; I am comfortable with the shovels I have available to dig my way out.
Oh...and please don't worry about raining on my parade. I've never asked for a parade, nor even ever wanted one. All I was after was the COIN. Disparage it however much you wish. I still believe it's a great coin, and one that the public deserves to see -- whether it's valued at $1 or $1B.
<< <i> Presentation pieces would have been struck ‘off the books’ and not taken from current coinage as such coins belonged to depositors. >>
Okay, THANK YOU! That is exactly the point I was trying to make, but you just said it far better and more succintly that I. Since any such presentation pieces were "off the books," we don't have precisely the type of documentation we might like for them, but that practice may certainly still have occured.
Cardinal, I noticed the coin you have on your Earlydollars.org website is an NGC MS-64. Is this your coin or an image that you are borrowing? It looks amazing for the grade!
Congrats again on the monster pickup!
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
One could easily make the argument this is the best "First" i.e. first year dollar made and thus unique among all dollars. Knowing Cardinal's perchant for this series and his ability to make the deal, I think it was good for him. Great rarities are different and your involvement with them is at least as emotional as it is financial.
It really is no different from those who seek to own certain cars. The market moves in many directions, but you can never place a value on the pleasure it gives you. I cannot place a value on an Atlantic Bugatti either, but if you have the means what does it matter?
My other point is that if you build a world class collection, then you are not a dealer and thus the resale value is irrellevent and that is really my main point here.
Well Done Cardinal !!
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
<< <i>My other point is that if you build a world class collection, then you are not a dealer and thus the resale value is irrellevent and that is really my main point here. >>
I disagree with this point. NO extremely high-value collector will make a purchase in which they are garuanteed to take a monster-loss, there is just too much money at stake even for the multi-multi-millionaires. However, in some cases, such as this one, the opportunity to obtain a coin may be worth the chance that in the long term you may not see a significant return on your purchase. Some coins, are worth the opportunity cost to be able to own
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
I suspect Cardinal unlike you will hold this rarity for a very long time and not just flip it. >>
Oh, cool - called out by an alt. LOL.
I've still got my main collection from 1996. IIRC, Cardinal sold his already. Nothing meant by that except that we all change directions in our collecting endeavors now and then. I myself started down the path of buying major rarities and then decided to build a seated dollar set that soaked up ALL available funds...so I had to make choices.
And that's all I'm trying to say - eventually we all have opportunity costs and what we paid for things comes into play.
From what I've read, I see TDN as saying, "Wonderful coin. I'm happy for you because I know you love it. - Though I wouldn't have paid that much for it..."
What's the big deal? He's entitled to his opinion and feels free to express it.
Congratulations, Cardinal! (Don't sell it just to prove TDN wrong.)
I'd like to reiterate that its a great coin - one of my favorites - and I'm very happy that Martin owns it. There's no one on the planet who will appreciate it more than cardinal. I was in error when I alluded it won't be worth $10M in our lifetimes. In fact, at the appreciation rate its shown even with my own estimate of value, it will exceed that value in short order.
I'd like to commend Martin for stepping up and accomplishing his dream. Congratulations.
TDN, I really do appreciate your concern, but sometimes, once-in-a-lifetime opportunities are worth taking.
As I have said before, my eyes are wide open. I know what the price is and what the opportunity costs might be, so please rest your worries about me. I did not execute this purchase thinking I would be pulling off a quick profitable flip, so I factored into my considerations the full LONG-TERM ramifications of the purchase. Remember, the news story said the coin was purchased by the Cardinal Collection Educational Foundation. The Foundation is structured to exist FOREVER, and no matter how long I myself may live, the Foundation may exist hundreds of years after my death. The coin is a museum piece. So, if the decision is made by the Foundation to sell the coin, in say, the year 3010, will the price today really matter in making that decision?
Regarding opportunity costs and such, the acquisition of this coin does nothing to impact the Cardinal Collection of Early Copper, that is scheduled to be displayed at the June Long Beach Expo. That set will be displayed later in the year at other venues as well, including a display of the full date set 1793-1857 planned for the Baltimore show. It is not for sale.
Edited to add: TDN, just saw your last post after submitting the above post. Again, thank you for your interest. I know this is a coin that you have favored as well, and I can assure you it will be cherished in its new home.
Cardinal - You might want to pick up a Gallery Mint 1794 Dollar to carry as a pocket piece. I'm sure it would be fun to show it off every time someone asks you about the real one. Not that you have to tell them what you're actually showing them, of course.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
This thread is the exact reason I am a member of this forum. I have learned so much within the last 20 minutes while reading through all of the posts. Congratulations Cardinal on making the purchase of a lifetime, that coin is truly spectacular!
Amazing coin. I had the pleasure of holding it several years ago at an ANA.
The pictures don't do it any justice. You just can't capture the PL surfaces.
As far as value who cares, unless you are an investor and not a collector. $8M is still chump change to many in this world and wealthy collectors who spend their money for pleasure could care less if it's worth $5M or $25M.
<< <i>This thread is the exact reason I am a member of this forum. I have learned so much within the last 20 minutes while reading through all of the posts. Congratulations Cardinal on making the purchase of a lifetime, that coin is truly spectacular! >>
I agree. We are within the true heavy hitters here, and without this forum I would never have gained a 1/10th of the knowledge I have. Not just this thread but the site itself. This thread has been an eye opener for sure. Amazing !!!!
I have examined this 1794 dollar on at least three occasions. It is an awesome coin. There is just no way to fully and fairly describe it
The press release, regarding the sale of this 1794 dollar, contains the following two paragraphs (among others). I am curious as to when the U.S. Mint's own collection was initiated. Do any of the contributors to this thread know the origin of the theory put forth here by Larry Shepherd?
<<The quality of the imprint on this one shows it was struck on a hand-cranked press from a special piece of polished, high-quality silver. That indicates it was intended for either a dignitary or the mint's own private collection, said Larry Shepherd, executive director of the American Numismatic Association.
<<It likely remained in the mint's collection until the 1800s, Shepherd said, when it was probably traded to a private collector, something he said the mint sometimes did in those days.>>
1794, the very first set of dies, one specially prepared silver planchet, one magnificent coin. I imagine if the original holder still existed, would be worth something.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>I have examined this 1794 dollar on at least three occasions. It is an awesome coin. There is just no way to fully and fairly describe it
The press release, regarding the sale of this 1794 dollar, contains the following two paragraphs (among others). I am curious as to when the U.S. Mint's own collection was initiated. Do any of the contributors to this thread know the origin of the theory put forth here by Larry Shepherd?
<<The quality of the imprint on this one shows it was struck on a hand-cranked press from a special piece of polished, high-quality silver. That indicates it was intended for either a dignitary or the mint's own private collection, said Larry Shepherd, executive director of the American Numismatic Association.
<<It likely remained in the mint's collection until the 1800s, Shepherd said, when it was probably traded to a private collector, something he said the mint sometimes did in those days.>>
As far as I know, this is the earliest reference to the Mint Cabinet--
Wm. E. DuBois. Pledges of History, A Brief Account of the Collection of Coins Belonging to the Mint, more especially the Antique Specimens, (Philadelphia: C. Sherman, printer, 1846.). 138pp. Davis 325. 1 plate, medal ruled. A table summarizes the mint cabinet at the time, some 3800 pieces of which approximately 10% are U.S. issues. There is no specific cataloguing of the U.S. coinage, but this important work describes the genesis of the collection: “The collection was commenced in June, 1838. Long before that date, however, Mr. Adam Eckfeldt, formerly Chief Coiner, led as well by his own taste as by the expectation that a conservatory would some day be established, took pains to preserve master-coins of the different annual issues of the Mint, and to retain some of the finest foreign specimens, as they appeared in deposit for recoinage. As soon as a special annual appropriation was instituted for this object, by Congress (which was as soon as it was asked), the collection took a permanent form, and from the nucleus above mentioned, has gone on in a continual course of augmentation since. It is now nearly as large as we expect or wish to have it, excepting, however, that specimens of new coinage, domestic or foreign, must be added as they appear.”
If someone has a copy, perhaps they can tell us whether or not a 1794 dollar is listed. If I recall correctly, the individual US coins are not enumerated.
<< <i>TDN, I really do appreciate your concern, but sometimes, once-in-a-lifetime opportunities are worth taking.
As I have said before, my eyes are wide open. I know what the price is and what the opportunity costs might be, so please rest your worries about me. I did not execute this purchase thinking I would be pulling off a quick profitable flip, so I factored into my considerations the full LONG-TERM ramifications of the purchase. Remember, the news story said the coin was purchased by the Cardinal Collection Educational Foundation. The Foundation is structured to exist FOREVER, and no matter how long I myself may live, the Foundation may exist hundreds of years after my death. The coin is a museum piece. So, if the decision is made by the Foundation to sell the coin, in say, the year 3010, will the price today really matter in making that decision?
Regarding opportunity costs and such, the acquisition of this coin does nothing to impact the Cardinal Collection of Early Copper, that is scheduled to be displayed at the June Long Beach Expo. That set will be displayed later in the year at other venues as well, including a display of the full date set 1793-1857 planned for the Baltimore show. It is not for sale.
Edited to add: TDN, just saw your last post after submitting the above post. Again, thank you for your interest. I know this is a coin that you have favored as well, and I can assure you it will be cherished in its new home.
--Cardinal >>
Congratulations "cardinal" and i hear you load and clear when you say "sometimes once-in-a-lifetime opportunities are worth taking"... And sounds like you have a very well thought out plan... It sounds and looks like an amazing coin and sincerely hope you and yours have many years of enjoyment with such a treasure...
a very remarkable coin, and congrats to the new owner
this may be inappropriate, but ''The Cardinal Collection Educational Foundation" has me scratching my head wondering about advantages/purposes of this entity
Is it for tax purposes, donation purposes, insurance puposes, hobby turned passion for sharing purposes?
<< <i>a very remarkable coin, and congrats to the new owner
this may be inappropriate, but ''The Cardinal Collection Educational Foundation" has me scratching my head wondering about advantages/purposes of this entity
Is it for tax purposes, donation purposes, insurance puposes, hobby turned passion for sharing purposes? >>
Eric Newman has the same sort of thing setup.
I believe the idea is that you setup your collection as a separate charitable entity, at which point all donations to it become tax deductible.
It is a way of maintaining control over the collection while achieving tax advantages.
The downside is that you don't technically own the collection anymore - the organization does & the officers of that org maintain fiduciary duty to the charity, not to you or your heirs. While you are living the officers are probably in your backpocket for various reasons, but after you die things can get messy if squabbles arise.
As one of the great many collectors who looks forward to seeing your coin, as well as to sharing it with my family, I want to offer you my sincerest thanks for your immense generousity in sharing it with the public. I'm sure that everyone realizes that you in no way have to do so, just as the owners of some ultra-rarities choose not to share thier coins.
As to the business end of the transaction, it is your business. As long as the buyer and seller are happy, that's all that matters.
I for one am most grateful that you have chosen to share this treasure with those of us who could never begin to afford it.
With sincerest thanks and congratualations,
Ron
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> Everyone's being so nice in public except me - yet in private they all say the coin's worth $5M at the most - he's buried. But at least he loves it". >>
"They all say." Wow! With nearly 7 billion people in the world, that's a lot of people!
I hear you loud and clear, and I appreciate the concern. And though I firmly reserve my right to disagree with you, IF it turns out I actually am buried in it....so be it; I am comfortable with the shovels I have available to dig my way out.
Oh...and please don't worry about raining on my parade. I've never asked for a parade, nor even ever wanted one. All I was after was the COIN. Disparage it however much you wish. I still believe it's a great coin, and one that the public deserves to see -- whether it's valued at $1 or $1B. >>
Hadn't given much thought to the coin being purchased by a charitable organization, but that is pretty cool. Also, assuming the donor(s) were all high income CA residents (who are subject to combined Fed and State tax rates of about 45%) and assuming that all of their donations to the foundation were deductible contributions, the net out of pocket cost of the coin was closer to $4.5 million
The great rarities often have a price fullfilling prophecy associated with them. Often all it takes is one person to raise the bar for whatever reason and there it stays. The publicity of this sale is widespread across the world media and has no doubt perked the ears of deep pocket investors looking to find alternatives for their cash. There is something to be said for the finest of any particular rare coin. Those deep pocket types often prefer to pay whatever it takes for the top specimen than to settle for 2nd or 3rd best at a much reduced price. In the latter you can't brag to your friends that it's the best in the world.
Considering that the US dollar has appreciated over 17% since the market peak in early 2008, this purchase would actually be the equivalent of $9 MILL for something bought in early 2008.
Here is an interesting question, given all the discussion of price. What coin would you rather have, this one or the 1933 Saint. For the sake of this question, the Mint has kept and melted the 10 1933s under litigation. (I know it is a bit contrived, but that keeps the 1933 as a relatively unique piece, except for the two the government holds in its collection.
So, what say you!
FYI, my vote is for the 1794 dollar.
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
<< <i>The great rarities often have a price fullfilling prophecy associated with them. Often all it takes is one person to raise the bar for whatever reason and there it stays. The publicity of this sale is widespread across the world media and has no doubt perked the ears of deep pocket investors looking to find alternatives for their cash. There is something to be said for the finest of any particular rare coin. Those deep pocket types often prefer to pay whatever it takes for the top specimen than to settle for 2nd or 3rd best at a much reduced price. In the latter you can't brag to your friends that it's the best in the world. >>
Giood point. The other thing is that this coin is now the answer to the question, "What's the world's most valuable coin?" Yes, there are many nuances to this question, but when an unknowledgable reporter asks it, the 1794 is what is going into print and capturing mindshare. This has the potential to make ALL 1794s more valuable, esp. if nothing comes along to break the record for awhile.
<< <i>Hadn't given much thought to the coin being purchased by a charitable organization, but that is pretty cool. Also, assuming the donor(s) were all high income CA residents (who are subject to combined Fed and State tax rates of about 45%) and assuming that all of their donations to the foundation were deductible contributions, the net out of pocket cost of the coin was closer to $4.5 million >>
<< <i>The price realized is out of line and IMO the result of someone saying its a $10M coin over and over and over...eventually it starts to become true
Hadn't given much thought to the coin being purchased by a charitable organization, but that is pretty cool. Also, assuming the donor(s) were all high income CA residents (who are subject to combined Fed and State tax rates of about 45%) and assuming that all of their donations to the foundation were deductible contributions, the net out of pocket cost of the coin was closer to $4.5 million >>
Well, then - I was right about its value! >>
Yes, TDN you are right, someone saying it's a $10M coin over and over again does not necessarily make it true. Please realize, though, that by YOUR same logic, someone blabbing for days and days on an internet forum that the coin is NOT worth more than $5M doesn't turn that opinion into a fact either.
I think it will always be in the 'top 10' coin list
and it would be darn cool if the Cardinal Collection has over 5 of these in the next few years that collectors can see in person (rather than pictures and press releases) at an occasional major coin event
<< <i>The price realized is out of line and IMO the result of someone saying its a $10M coin over and over and over...eventually it starts to become true
Hadn't given much thought to the coin being purchased by a charitable organization, but that is pretty cool. Also, assuming the donor(s) were all high income CA residents (who are subject to combined Fed and State tax rates of about 45%) and assuming that all of their donations to the foundation were deductible contributions, the net out of pocket cost of the coin was closer to $4.5 million >>
Well, then - I was right about its value! >>
Yes, TDN you are right, someone saying it's a $10M coin over and over again does not necessarily make it true. Please realize, though, that by YOUR same logic, someone blabbing for days and days on an internet forum that the coin is NOT worth more than $5M doesn't turn that opinion into a fact either. >>
Oh, come on Martin - that was a joke! See the
[Edited to add: It certainly makes a huge difference in ones' decision process whether something is paid with pre-tax or post-tax dollars. I can certainly see stretching further for a dream coin if the government ain't getting its fair share first.]
Comments
<< <i>From the Legend Market Report:
<< <i>For those who feel the price is extreme, we do not. The coin is unique, high quality, and wildly historical. There is nothing else like it. We strongly believe should the new owner have the long term holding power, when sold, this coin will yet again break all pricing records. >>
Hmmm... >>
Laura being politically correct? :-O. Dogs and cats, sleeping together....
Everyone's being so nice in public except me - yet in private they all say the coin's worth $5M at the most - he's buried. But at least he loves it". Sorry that I'm the only one raining on the parade here. Hey - if there's no opportunity cost, then I say go for it! ;-)
<< <i>Sorry that I'm the only one raining on the parade here. >>
Why, exactly, are you doing that publicly? Why not express your concerns to him privately via PM?
Cardinal is a big boy and he can fight his own battles. But he didn't start this thread and he didn't ask for opinions about his coin or his purchase price.
It's a great coin and Martin is the best person to own it. The price realized is out of line and IMO the result of someone saying its a $10M coin over and over and over...eventually it starts to become true.
I suspect Cardinal unlike you will hold this rarity for a very long time and not just flip it.
<< <i>Sorry, but I've never subscribed to the dorkkarl theory that one can never pay too much for a coin. Nor do I subscribe to the theory that all negative feedback should be done via PM so that only accolades are shown in public.
It's a great coin and Martin is the best person to own it. The price realized is out of line and IMO the result of someone saying its a $10M coin over and over and over...eventually it starts to become true. >>
I don't disagree with you on that at all, you certainly can pay too much for a coin. And I do think that Cardinal paid a lot of money for it, however like I said before, the price, or at least the purchase of the coin, does seem justifiable when you weigh in other mitigating factors. Like anything else, something is only worth what a willing buyer and a willing seller agree to, in this case it seems to be $7,850,000.
The truth is, there is no known documentary evidence of any coins being struck by the U.S. Mint in the late 18th century specifically for presentation purposes or specifically for collectors.
Actually, there is. Mint Director Elias Boudinot sent examples of U.S. coins to Matthew Boulton at Soho
in the latter part of the 1790s. The condition was not described but we can assume that only the best
would have been sent.
Denga
<< <i>cardinal May 21, 2010
The truth is, there is no known documentary evidence of any coins being struck by the U.S. Mint in the late 18th century specifically for presentation purposes or specifically for collectors.
Actually, there is. Mint Director Elias Boudinot sent examples of U.S. coins to Matthew Boulton at Soho
in the latter part of the 1790s. The condition was not described but we can assume that only the best
would have been sent.
Denga >>
Thank you for that information Denga!
However, I guess I wasn't being clear in my statement. I did not mean for it to sound like there were no recorded presentations of coins to private parties. What I meant was that there were no records (at least that I am aware of) of the Mint undertaking special procedures just to create special coins specifically for an intended VIP recipient, such as was done when the Mint produced the Class I 1804 dollars.
As you say, presumably, when Boudinot picked out the coins to be sent to Boulton, he would have selected the best available, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Boudinot went back to the coining room and said "Boys, make up some proofs for me!" and had them made to order for that purpose. (Doesn't rule that out as a possibility either. We just don't know.)
As you say, presumably, when Boudinot picked out the coins to be sent to Boulton, he would have selected the best available, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Boudinot went back to the coining room and said "Boys, make up some proofs for me!" and had them made to order for that purpose. (Doesn't rule that out as a possibility either. We just don't know.)
Presentation pieces would have been struck ‘off the books’ and not taken from current
coinage as such coins belonged to depositors. The director would have furnished the
silver out of his own pocket and instructed the chief coiner to strike the pieces as carefully
as possible as they were meant as showpieces for Boulton to examine. Whether this
meant special planchet preparation cannot now be determined.
Denga
Killer $. Blows away our old 94's Cardinal.
Nice 1/2 disme too by the way!
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>
<< <i> Everyone's being so nice in public except me - yet in private they all say the coin's worth $5M at the most - he's buried. But at least he loves it". >>
"They all say." Wow! With nearly 7 billion people in the world, that's a lot of people!
I hear you loud and clear, and I appreciate the concern. And though I firmly reserve my right to disagree with you, IF it turns out I actually am buried in it....so be it; I am comfortable with the shovels I have available to dig my way out.
Oh...and please don't worry about raining on my parade. I've never asked for a parade, nor even ever wanted one. All I was after was the COIN. Disparage it however much you wish. I still believe it's a great coin, and one that the public deserves to see -- whether it's valued at $1 or $1B.
<< <i>Killer $. Blows away our old 94's Cardinal.
Nice 1/2 disme too by the way!
K >>
Thanks Nic!!
<< <i> Presentation pieces would have been struck ‘off the books’ and not taken from current
coinage as such coins belonged to depositors. >>
Okay, THANK YOU! That is exactly the point I was trying to make, but you just said it far better and more succintly that I. Since any such presentation pieces were "off the books," we don't have precisely the type of documentation we might like for them, but that practice may certainly still have occured.
Congrats again on the monster pickup!
It really is no different from those who seek to own certain cars. The market moves in many directions, but you can never place a value on the pleasure it gives you. I cannot place a value on an Atlantic Bugatti either, but if you have the means what does it matter?
My other point is that if you build a world class collection, then you are not a dealer and thus the resale value is irrellevent and that is really my main point here.
Well Done Cardinal !!
<< <i>My other point is that if you build a world class collection, then you are not a dealer and thus the resale value is irrellevent and that is really my main point here. >>
I disagree with this point. NO extremely high-value collector will make a purchase in which they are garuanteed to take a monster-loss, there is just too much money at stake even for the multi-multi-millionaires. However, in some cases, such as this one, the opportunity to obtain a coin may be worth the chance that in the long term you may not see a significant return on your purchase. Some coins, are worth the opportunity cost to be able to own
<< <i>Tradedollarnut
I suspect Cardinal unlike you will hold this rarity for a very long time and not just flip it. >>
Oh, cool - called out by an alt. LOL.
I've still got my main collection from 1996. IIRC, Cardinal sold his already. Nothing meant by that except that we all change directions in our collecting endeavors now and then. I myself started down the path of buying major rarities and then decided to build a seated dollar set that soaked up ALL available funds...so I had to make choices.
And that's all I'm trying to say - eventually we all have opportunity costs and what we paid for things comes into play.
I defy you to point out even one instance where I have disparaged the coin or your ownership of it. All I question is the price.
What's the big deal? He's entitled to his opinion and feels free to express it.
Congratulations, Cardinal! (Don't sell it just to prove TDN wrong.)
I'd like to commend Martin for stepping up and accomplishing his dream. Congratulations.
As I have said before, my eyes are wide open. I know what the price is and what the opportunity costs might be, so please rest your worries about me. I did not execute this purchase thinking I would be pulling off a quick profitable flip, so I factored into my considerations the full LONG-TERM ramifications of the purchase. Remember, the news story said the coin was purchased by the Cardinal Collection Educational Foundation. The Foundation is structured to exist FOREVER, and no matter how long I myself may live, the Foundation may exist hundreds of years after my death. The coin is a museum piece. So, if the decision is made by the Foundation to sell the coin, in say, the year 3010, will the price today really matter in making that decision?
Regarding opportunity costs and such, the acquisition of this coin does nothing to impact the Cardinal Collection of Early Copper, that is scheduled to be displayed at the June Long Beach Expo. That set will be displayed later in the year at other venues as well, including a display of the full date set 1793-1857 planned for the Baltimore show. It is not for sale.
Edited to add:
TDN, just saw your last post after submitting the above post. Again, thank you for your interest. I know this is a coin that you have favored as well, and I can assure you it will be cherished in its new home.
--Cardinal
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Visit my son's caringbridge page @ Runner's Caringbridge Page
"To Give Anything Less than Your Best, Is to Sacrifice the Gift" - Steve Prefontaine
Amazing coin. I had the pleasure of holding it several years ago at an ANA.
The pictures don't do it any justice. You just can't capture the PL surfaces.
As far as value who cares, unless you are an investor and not a collector. $8M is still chump change to many in this world
and wealthy collectors who spend their money for pleasure could care less if it's worth $5M or $25M.
Enjoy it Cardinal!! It found a great home!!!
<< <i>This thread is the exact reason I am a member of this forum. I have learned so much within the last 20 minutes while reading through all of the posts. Congratulations Cardinal on making the purchase of a lifetime, that coin is truly spectacular! >>
I agree. We are within the true heavy hitters here, and without this forum I would never have gained a 1/10th of the knowledge I have. Not just this thread but the site itself. This thread has been an eye opener for sure. Amazing !!!!
The press release, regarding the sale of this 1794 dollar, contains the following two paragraphs (among others). I am curious as to when the U.S. Mint's own collection was initiated. Do any of the contributors to this thread know the origin of the theory put forth here by Larry Shepherd?
<<The quality of the imprint on this one shows it was struck on a hand-cranked press from a special piece of polished, high-quality silver. That indicates it was intended for either a dignitary or the mint's own private collection, said Larry Shepherd, executive director of the American Numismatic Association.
<<It likely remained in the mint's collection until the 1800s, Shepherd said, when it was probably traded to a private collector, something he said the mint sometimes did in those days.>>
New Column on Coin Rarities & Related Topics
PCGS Message Board Thread – Coin Rarities
But we can try...
Image from www.coinsite.com/.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I have examined this 1794 dollar on at least three occasions. It is an awesome coin. There is just no way to fully and fairly describe it
The press release, regarding the sale of this 1794 dollar, contains the following two paragraphs (among others). I am curious as to when the U.S. Mint's own collection was initiated. Do any of the contributors to this thread know the origin of the theory put forth here by Larry Shepherd?
<<The quality of the imprint on this one shows it was struck on a hand-cranked press from a special piece of polished, high-quality silver. That indicates it was intended for either a dignitary or the mint's own private collection, said Larry Shepherd, executive director of the American Numismatic Association.
<<It likely remained in the mint's collection until the 1800s, Shepherd said, when it was probably traded to a private collector, something he said the mint sometimes did in those days.>>
New Column on Coin Rarities & Related Topics
PCGS Message Board Thread – Coin Rarities >>
As far as I know, this is the earliest reference to the Mint Cabinet--
Wm. E. DuBois. Pledges of History, A Brief Account of the Collection of Coins Belonging to the Mint, more especially the Antique Specimens, (Philadelphia: C. Sherman, printer, 1846.). 138pp.
Davis 325. 1 plate, medal ruled. A table summarizes the mint cabinet at the time, some 3800 pieces of which approximately 10% are U.S. issues. There is no specific cataloguing of the U.S. coinage, but this important work describes the genesis of the collection: “The collection was commenced in June, 1838. Long before that date, however, Mr. Adam Eckfeldt, formerly Chief Coiner, led as well by his own taste as by the expectation that a conservatory would some day be established, took pains to preserve master-coins of the different annual issues of the Mint, and to retain some of the finest foreign specimens, as they appeared in deposit for recoinage. As soon as a special annual appropriation was instituted for this object, by Congress (which was as soon as it was asked), the collection took a permanent form, and from the nucleus above mentioned, has gone on in a continual course of augmentation since. It is now nearly as large as we expect or wish to have it, excepting, however, that specimens of new coinage, domestic or foreign, must be added as they appear.”
If someone has a copy, perhaps they can tell us whether or not a 1794 dollar is listed. If I recall correctly, the individual US coins are not enumerated.
<< <i>TDN, I really do appreciate your concern, but sometimes, once-in-a-lifetime opportunities are worth taking.
As I have said before, my eyes are wide open. I know what the price is and what the opportunity costs might be, so please rest your worries about me. I did not execute this purchase thinking I would be pulling off a quick profitable flip, so I factored into my considerations the full LONG-TERM ramifications of the purchase. Remember, the news story said the coin was purchased by the Cardinal Collection Educational Foundation. The Foundation is structured to exist FOREVER, and no matter how long I myself may live, the Foundation may exist hundreds of years after my death. The coin is a museum piece. So, if the decision is made by the Foundation to sell the coin, in say, the year 3010, will the price today really matter in making that decision?
Regarding opportunity costs and such, the acquisition of this coin does nothing to impact the Cardinal Collection of Early Copper, that is scheduled to be displayed at the June Long Beach Expo. That set will be displayed later in the year at other venues as well, including a display of the full date set 1793-1857 planned for the Baltimore show. It is not for sale.
Edited to add:
TDN, just saw your last post after submitting the above post. Again, thank you for your interest. I know this is a coin that you have favored as well, and I can assure you it will be cherished in its new home.
--Cardinal >>
Congratulations "cardinal" and i hear you load and clear when you say "sometimes once-in-a-lifetime opportunities are worth taking"...
It sounds and looks like an amazing coin and sincerely hope you and yours have many years of enjoyment with such a treasure...
AB
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Now all it needs is a little color
Ask and ye shall receive.
this may be inappropriate, but ''The Cardinal Collection Educational Foundation" has me scratching my head
wondering about advantages/purposes of this entity
Is it for tax purposes, donation purposes, insurance puposes, hobby turned passion for sharing purposes?
<< <i>a very remarkable coin, and congrats to the new owner
this may be inappropriate, but ''The Cardinal Collection Educational Foundation" has me scratching my head
wondering about advantages/purposes of this entity
Is it for tax purposes, donation purposes, insurance puposes, hobby turned passion for sharing purposes? >>
Eric Newman has the same sort of thing setup.
I believe the idea is that you setup your collection as a separate charitable entity, at which point all donations to it become tax deductible.
It is a way of maintaining control over the collection while achieving tax advantages.
The downside is that you don't technically own the collection anymore - the organization does & the officers of that org maintain fiduciary duty to the charity, not to you or your heirs. While you are living the officers are probably in your backpocket for various reasons, but after you die things can get messy if squabbles arise.
You points below are very well taken.
As one of the great many collectors who looks forward to seeing your coin, as well as to sharing it with my family, I want to offer you my sincerest thanks for your immense generousity in sharing it with the public. I'm sure that everyone realizes that you in no way have to do so, just as the owners of some ultra-rarities choose not to share thier coins.
As to the business end of the transaction, it is your business. As long as the buyer and seller are happy, that's all that matters.
I for one am most grateful that you have chosen to share this treasure with those of us who could never begin to afford it.
With sincerest thanks and congratualations,
Ron
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> Everyone's being so nice in public except me - yet in private they all say the coin's worth $5M at the most - he's buried. But at least he loves it". >>
"They all say." Wow! With nearly 7 billion people in the world, that's a lot of people!
I hear you loud and clear, and I appreciate the concern. And though I firmly reserve my right to disagree with you, IF it turns out I actually am buried in it....so be it; I am comfortable with the shovels I have available to dig my way out.
Oh...and please don't worry about raining on my parade. I've never asked for a parade, nor even ever wanted one. All I was after was the COIN. Disparage it however much you wish. I still believe it's a great coin, and one that the public deserves to see -- whether it's valued at $1 or $1B. >>
Text
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Considering that the US dollar has appreciated over 17% since the market peak in early 2008, this purchase would actually be the equivalent of $9 MILL for something bought in early 2008.
roadrunner
So, what say you!
FYI, my vote is for the 1794 dollar.
<< <i>The great rarities often have a price fullfilling prophecy associated with them. Often all it takes is one person to raise the bar for whatever reason and there it stays. The publicity of this sale is widespread across the world media and has no doubt perked the ears of deep pocket investors looking to find alternatives for their cash. There is something to be said for the finest of any particular rare coin. Those deep pocket types often prefer to pay whatever it takes for the top specimen than to settle for 2nd or 3rd best at a much reduced price. In the latter you can't brag to your friends that it's the best in the world.
>>
Giood point. The other thing is that this coin is now the answer to the question, "What's the world's most valuable coin?" Yes, there are many nuances to this question, but when an unknowledgable reporter asks it, the 1794 is what is going into print and capturing mindshare. This has the potential to make ALL 1794s more valuable, esp. if nothing comes along to break the record for awhile.
<< <i>Hadn't given much thought to the coin being purchased by a charitable organization, but that is pretty cool. Also, assuming the donor(s) were all high income CA residents (who are subject to combined Fed and State tax rates of about 45%) and assuming that all of their donations to the foundation were deductible contributions, the net out of pocket cost of the coin was closer to $4.5 million
Well, then - I was right about its value!
<< <i>
<< <i>The price realized is out of line and IMO the result of someone saying its a $10M coin over and over and over...eventually it starts to become true
Hadn't given much thought to the coin being purchased by a charitable organization, but that is pretty cool. Also, assuming the donor(s) were all high income CA residents (who are subject to combined Fed and State tax rates of about 45%) and assuming that all of their donations to the foundation were deductible contributions, the net out of pocket cost of the coin was closer to $4.5 million
Well, then - I was right about its value!
Yes, TDN you are right, someone saying it's a $10M coin over and over again does not necessarily make it true. Please realize, though, that by YOUR same logic, someone blabbing for days and days on an internet forum that the coin is NOT worth more than $5M doesn't turn that opinion into a fact either.
and it would be darn cool if the Cardinal Collection has over 5 of these in the next few years
that collectors can see in person (rather than pictures and press releases) at an occasional major coin event
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The price realized is out of line and IMO the result of someone saying its a $10M coin over and over and over...eventually it starts to become true
Hadn't given much thought to the coin being purchased by a charitable organization, but that is pretty cool. Also, assuming the donor(s) were all high income CA residents (who are subject to combined Fed and State tax rates of about 45%) and assuming that all of their donations to the foundation were deductible contributions, the net out of pocket cost of the coin was closer to $4.5 million
Well, then - I was right about its value!
Yes, TDN you are right, someone saying it's a $10M coin over and over again does not necessarily make it true. Please realize, though, that by YOUR same logic, someone blabbing for days and days on an internet forum that the coin is NOT worth more than $5M doesn't turn that opinion into a fact either. >>
Oh, come on Martin - that was a joke! See the
[Edited to add: It certainly makes a huge difference in ones' decision process whether something is paid with pre-tax or post-tax dollars. I can certainly see stretching further for a dream coin if the government ain't getting its fair share first.]