<< <i>I would love to see a show promoter kick me out for buying from a collector I have done it at every show I have ever attended....never an issue, are their show police where you attend shows >>
It's unfortunate when the bar gets set at "What you can get away with".
IMO, just because you don't get caught doesn't make it okay.
I would ask you to pay half the Rent, Light bill, Phone bill and so on then you can do all the business you like. It was not right. But we all would like to do it.
<< <i>if you walk off and catch up to him then there is nothing wrong with making a deal
show promoters will kick you out of a show if they catch you making deals in the isle. I've purchased from collectors at dealers tables who passed on the deal. Easy solution, ask the dealer what he wants for you to make the purchase at his table and everyone is happy. Never had a problem with this solution. >>
I would love to see a show promoter kick me out for buying from a collector I have done it at every show I have ever attended....never an issue, are their show police where you attend shows >>
Every coin show has different policies and while some shows will tacitly allow vest-pocket dealings in the aisles, many more shows will post in written signs explicitly forbidding it. It is the responsibility of the show attendee to find out what the policies of a particular show are before engaging in transactions with other attendees.
While you may think it's a laughable notion that a show promoter would be able to throw you out of a show all by themselves, that demeanor and self-righteous attitude quickly dissapears once a few deputy sheriffs are called to physically evict you from the premises. I've seen it happen a few times in the past, and every time police presence is a fast and effective attitude adjuster.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
One thing I have noticed with coin shop owners is that they are nearly all "Type A" personalities, which makes sense when you think of the type of person that wants to operate their own business. While those of us that are definitely NOT a Type A may wonder about reactions to things that might not bother us as much, we have to accept the Type A/non Type A differences.
As far as throwing someone out of your shop is concerned, having dealt with both dealers and collectors for several decades, there are just some people that truly deserve to be ejected, if not catapulted, out the door.
<< <i>I think CaptHenway is just worried about the cost of adding a second trap door. >>
We have three already! It's a long counter!
But seriously, folks, I have had people walk up to a negotiation in progress where nobody has turned down an offer and try to buy the goods off the counter. Such people are so effing dense that no amount of subtlety can stop them. You have to burn them down to the ground with a flamethrower right then and there.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I will add....if I were in a B&M and seen the owner trying in a very VERY deceptive manner attempting to "Get Something" from someone, clearly stealing it from them.....Like offering $50 for a double eagle telling them.".heck, it only is worth 20 bucks, it says so on the coin."..ID speak up.
but, buying it yourself from a customer in the shop...that a no no.
<< <i>I think CaptHenway is just worried about the cost of adding a second trap door. >>
We have three already! It's a long counter!
But seriously, folks, I have had people walk up to a negotiation in progress where nobody has turned down an offer and try to buy the goods off the counter. Such people are so effing dense that no amount of subtlety can stop them. You have to burn them down to the ground with a flamethrower right then and there.
TD >>
THANK YOU. In 3 sentences you have just conveyed my position exactly, Tom.
There's right and there's wrong; it's simply wrong to try to hit on a dealer's customer's. Customer's that you would never have known existed except for the fact that they happened into the same coin shop you happened to be in.
IMO, most of us on this board should be old enough to understand the right from wrong, and if you don't understand it by now, you never will. For the younger crowd out there, honesty and class goes a long way...
I feel like there should be a time out for a soap commercial at this point..
<< <i>I agree with this. To add, this is also not acceptable at coin shows. Generally you'd be asked to leave. >>
I wanted to interact really badly at a show when a dealers helper was telling a collector that NCC was bought by PCGS... hence NCC's Morgan grades equaled PCGS. >>
I would speak up immediately on this one since that's an outright lie and the "dealer" should be shown the friggin door!
As for the OP, the error was in asking the "ustomer"how much he wanted when the OP should have asked the "dealer" how much the guy was asking. No harm in that.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>just as bad, a local coin club wanted to put there coin club flyer in are coin shop, we let them put some on the counter, now another club wants to do the same, the guy from the first club was in are store when a customer was buying morgans he told him about there coin club and that they had a auction with morgans in it ..
i couldnt believe this clown , both clubs will be getting there flyers back , no more helping coin clubs and then getting clubed over the head !! >>
their coin club flyer in our shop
clubbed
................
So did the guy not buy any Morgans from you? Kinda overreactionary on your part IMO. >>
That was a bit difficult to read..........
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I will add....if I were in a B&M and seen the owner trying in a very VERY deceptive manner attempting to "Get Something" from someone, clearly stealing it from them.....Like offering $50 for a double eagle telling them.".heck, it only is worth 20 bucks, it says so on the coin."..ID speak up. >>
Yes, but those are also dealers with whom I would refuse to do business if I ever saw something like that. So in a sense, no real harm, as I'd be leaving anyway.
<< <i>if you walk off and catch up to him then there is nothing wrong with making a deal
show promoters will kick you out of a show if they catch you making deals in the isle. I've purchased from collectors at dealers tables who passed on the deal. Easy solution, ask the dealer what he wants for you to make the purchase at his table and everyone is happy. Never had a problem with this solution. >>
I would love to see a show promoter kick me out for buying from a collector I have done it at every show I have ever attended....never an issue, are their show police where you attend shows >>
Every coin show has different policies and while some shows will tacitly allow vest-pocket dealings in the aisles, many more shows will post in written signs explicitly forbidding it. It is the responsibility of the show attendee to find out what the policies of a particular show are before engaging in transactions with other attendees.
While you may think it's a laughable notion that a show promoter would be able to throw you out of a show all by themselves, that demeanor and self-righteous attitude quickly dissapears once a few deputy sheriffs are called to physically evict you from the premises. I've seen it happen a few times in the past, and every time police presence is a fast and effective attitude adjuster. >>
At the first and only Coin Show where I sat behind the table, I was also the show organizer.
I had gotten a call prior to the show from some "show" dealer (meaning he did not have a store front) inquiring about compete IKE Sets. We worked up a deal and at the show, he drops by with his inventory brief case and I sold him some sets.
Unbeknownst to me, this fellow began showing folks at the show the inventory he had in his brief case. The Local Club president asked me if I thought it was ok for this fellow to do this and we both agreed that since he hadn't paid table fee's, that it was not.
I politely asked the "aisle dealer" to stop showing his wares to which he apologized and agreed that it was a clumsy thing for him to have done. He stopped and the proceeded on smoothly.
NOTE: Each dealer at a coin show has paid for their specific tables and rely upon sales at those shows to at least cover those costs. If a customer walks up to a table and he/she and the dealer cannot come to an agreeable price, to solicit them in the aisle is a big no no since it can only be presumed that perhaps another dealer COULD negotiate a price with the customer. In other words, just because one dealer would not buy does not mean that one of the other dealers will not buy.
If you want to conduct business at a Coin Show, beit buying or selling, then get a friggin table. Otherwise, you will get asked to leave! Coin Show police or not, you are taking potential business away from Table Paying Dealers!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>just as bad, a local coin club wanted to put there coin club flyer in are coin shop, we let them put some on the counter, now another club wants to do the same, the guy from the first club was in are store when a customer was buying morgans he told him about there coin club and that they had a auction with morgans in it ..
i couldnt believe this clown , both clubs will be getting there flyers back , no more helping coin clubs and then getting clubed over the head !! >>
BTW, did you mosey over to the auction and score some good deals? I'm guessing that you were as much invited as the other guy was. >>
You're implying since the dealer could also go to said auction, the club guy was doing nothing wrong by soliciting the customer in his store. So, by your same "logic", anyone can then go into a coin store and offer to buy things from any other customer who's selling something, as long as they turn to the dealer and say "it's OK, I can try to buy this guy's stuff because I'm equally willing to buy things from you too- so that makes it fair"? Gimme a break. >>
I didn't imply anything. I just asked if the dealer took advantage of the little tidbit of info that just fell onto his lap.
But seriously, folks, I have had people walk up to a negotiation in progress where nobody has turned down an offer and try to buy the goods off the counter. Such people are so effing dense that no amount of subtlety can stop them. You have to burn them down to the ground with a flamethrower right then and there.
<< <i>......both clubs will be getting there flyers back , no more helping coin clubs and then getting clubed over the head !! >>
I hope the many coin club members find out how you feel about them and boycott your store. >>
Just curious...how is this any different than having someone say "I can sell you Morgans cheaper" to the customer in question? That's basically what the club guy did. He was soliciting the club's Morgans in the guy's store, to a customer who was buying Morgans from him at the time. I'd be mad too.
This thread is actually a huge coincidence. I started a thread on the ebay boards back on the 11th about something very similar where a guy not only solicited someone in our store, he gave the guy his name and number and told him to call him because he was interested in the stuff the guy just inherited...my reaction was a bit stronger than OP's dealer. Maybe I wasn't all that tactful, but a) I was seeing red and b)why be tactful when the goal is to get someone to leave and not come back?
Text below for those not wanting to follow the link:
Here's the short (well, kinda short...OK, not so short) version of events. In the interest of fairness I present them as close to verbatim as possible-other person's responses are in italics:
I am dealing with this guy...we'll call him customer "A", a guy who comes in perhaps 3-4 times a year max. He was looking for a couple Buffaloes this time, but what we had, as normal with this guy, is either "too nice", "not nice enough", or "more than (he) wanted to spend". Translation: he almost always manages to find a way not to buy something. OK, whatever. I'm used to it. He's pretty well done and just nosing around at this point.
In walks customer "B", who just inherited some coins and brought in a couple of samples...Whitman folders with some silver coins, etc, and was seeking advice at this point on possibly getting things organized, picking up a Redbook and likely having us evaluate the stuff at some point. Customer "A" immediately takes great interest in my conversation with customer "B" and inches towards us, but at this point says nothing.
In strolls customer "C"... I am doing a solo act today so I briefly excuse myself with "B" and acknowledge customer "C", who needs something quick and easy. As I take care of "C", customer "A" sidles up to customer "B", starts chatting him up, opens up "B" 's album, paws through the stuff and proceeds to take out a piece of paper and write down his name and phone number, giving same to "B" and telling him in a suddenly quiet voice to call him.
"C", now taken care of by me, leaves.
I come back intending to resume talking to "B" about what he has and how we can help him, but "B" quickly turns to me, says "thanks, I'll get back with you", or something to that effect, excuses himself and leaves within about 15 seconds, without even having bought the Redbook he was intending to purchase. I'm puzzled as we hadn't really discussed much yet- but then again, not REALLY puzzled, as I had heard enough of their convo to know what just transpired....and inside my head I hear a little "snap"...
This leaves me and customer "A", who now has the guilty look of a kid who just got caught with his hand in the proverbial cookie jar.
I asked him..."Did you just do what I think you did?"
"What's that?"
"Did you just solicit that guy- in OUR store?"
"Not exactly"
"Didn't you just give him your name and number?"
"Uh...yes."
"Told him to call you and said you're interested in buying it?"
"Uh-well-yuh."
"That's what I thought. You were trying to solicit a customer. You just ran head first into my biggest pet peeve. I was talking to him, trying to help him out, you went over, butted in and YOU want to try to muscle in and buy the deal? Oh heck no! Well, I can't control whether you buy THAT deal, but you (darn) sure aren't ever going to buy anything HERE again. Leave."
(snotty tone)"Well, he never actually said he was selling to you..."
"I don't give a (poop) whether he was selling or not. I don't care what he wanted to do, it was none of your (darn) business. Last time I checked, it's our name on the door, not yours. We pay rent and overhead here, not you...he came in to talk to us, not you, with some expectation of privacy I might add... and I don't exist to supply you with a place to hang out and try to score deals with MY customers."
Well, I'm a customer too, I do a lot of business here..."
"Really? You mean like today? All of 2 or 3 times a year you come in, look through everything, waste a bunch of time and don't buy anything...I could have every (bleeping) thing on your want list and you could still find a reason not to buy it...and when you do buy something it's only when you think it's too cheap. And you've got the nerve to pull something like this on top of it all? Trust me, I'm willing to make the sacrifice. Now get out and don't come back. We're done." (This was followed by my best "I dare you to say one more word" face. Ha! )
Customer "A" sizes me up for a second (at this point I should note that I am 6-5, 205, which doesn't hurt in such instances )... and then leaves, mumbling something under his breath as he departs. I didn't catch it all, but the f-word was involved. There was a time when I'd have considered following him outside, but I just kept staring as he left.
Our USPS guy came in a few minutes later and asked me why I was all red in the face...
So, my friends, in the interest of making this an educational experience, for myself if nothing else, or perhaps just some entertainment for all of you... here are my questions to you, as impartial "observers" of this altercation, which I have described essentially verbatim...
1. Was Customer "A" wrong to do what he did, or was it not a big deal in your eyes?
2. Was my response appropriate? Inappropriate? Harsh? Not harsh enough?
3. What are your thoughts about Customer "B"?
4. What, if anything, would YOU do differently if you were in my place?
5. What, if anything, would you do if you were in the position of Customer "A", either before approaching "B" or after?
6. As Customer "A" what would your response be after I blew my stack?
I am curious to see what the general sentiment is here and eagerly await your responses.
(Side note...for those who are in the "you should have made nice with A and kept him as a customer" camp... frankly I have no interest in having someone like that back in our shop so they can pull the same thing again... imo anyone who needs to rely on "customers" like that to stay afloat and/or allows them to return has something drastically wrong with their business model.) >>
I would say you were pretty nice about it actually.
<< <i>just as bad, a local coin club wanted to put there coin club flyer in are coin shop, we let them put some on the counter, now another club wants to do the same, the guy from the first club was in are store when a customer was buying morgans he told him about there coin club and that they had a auction with morgans in it ..
i couldnt believe this clown , both clubs will be getting there flyers back , no more helping coin clubs and then getting clubed over the head !! >>
BTW, did you mosey over to the auction and score some good deals? I'm guessing that you were as much invited as the other guy was. >>
You're implying since the dealer could also go to said auction, the club guy was doing nothing wrong by soliciting the customer in his store. So, by your same "logic", anyone can then go into a coin store and offer to buy things from any other customer who's selling something, as long as they turn to the dealer and say "it's OK, I can try to buy this guy's stuff because I'm equally willing to buy things from you too- so that makes it fair"? Gimme a break. >>
I didn't imply anything. I just asked if the dealer took advantage of the little tidbit of info that just fell onto his lap. >>
If so, apologies-given the context of the statement and response it was assumed that was the inference. Sorry.
<< <i>I would wait a few days before going back ,First start off with the apology that you didnt mean ill harm to him or his place of business then explaining that ( if it is true) you wasnt interested in buying but wondering what the seller thought the coins were worth. They may or may not accept your apology ( and maybe some of you would say just cut your losses and walk away right now) but I would make that effort to apologize if i really didnt mean ill harm . If its a dealer youve been going to for years they should know how you are and your intentions so even if you broke a unwritten rule they might have been having justa bad day. Cant hurt in my book. If after that and they ask you to leave again then I would look for a new dealer. >>
I did this when it happened to me. I called the dealer up and apologized if I'd unknowingly crossed some line or violated an unwritten rule. He forgave me, I forgave him, and he ended up being a sort of mentor to me.
As stated by many, a critical mistake in business etiquette.
Atrian's answer is the best solution at this point.
Other than buying from the Dealer, in the Dealer's shop ... there is only one possible way to do business in a dealers shop, in my opinion ... and if the dealers are still reading this, I would welcome input here.
Even though this scenario is for "small change" items, I think anything could be used.
Scenario;
I am a collector in Bill's shop. I just came in for my regular (two to three times a month) stroll around and look. I don't always buy things, but I do business with Bill. Bill sometimes knows what I like (for the most part), and is a good guy. We chat about coins ... he occasionally offers up tidbits of wisdom ... I probably am starting to gain a lot more in knowledge by looking and talking to him than I am buying coins from him ... but I pick up a piece or two here and there, and we are on good terms.
this first part is very important, because I would only even consider this again under this situation .... a dealer I have little to no experience or history with could not accept or process this effectively, and so I would have to keep my mouth closed completely
A customer comes in wanting assistance, and Bill excuses himself to attend. A deal is being offered. The shop is small, so I can hear and kind of see what is transpiring. I keep my distance, but I cannot help my curiosity.
In the group are several things I might like to own from what I can tell. Bill probably doesn't know this, because he rarely has such things. I can also tell Bill isn't too keen on making a compelling offer.
I politely ask Bill if I can interrupt him for a moment. He is a little surprised and noticeably aggravated but I stay away from his area where the deal is laid out and in so I am hoping he will come to my side on the shop. I do not approach, but try to express with my body language that my interruption is of importance, maybe.
Bill politely excuses himself from the customer, and comes down to me. He is a little miffed, and rightly so.
Quietly but directly I say something like ... "You know Bill, I really like EF Indians. I can't afford the keys, but if those are nice EF’s (head nod in the general direction of the customer), I could probably buy some of those from you today. I have several hundred dollars with me, and I'd be happy to wait until you're done or come back in a half hour."
important that I stated my position quickly and definitely, and in relative privacy ... and that I offered Bill some information that I was pretty sure he didn't have; that I like a coin that I didn't regularly look for in his shop or buy from him, that I had cash (and how much) to spend, and that I would wait. I also emphasized the grade twice so he would know I was interested in EF Indians, and not Fines or Unc's
Since this is a real situation that transpired pretty close to the way I have stated it about 20 years ago ... if someone reminds me later, I will post what happened.
In the mean time, I'd like dealer comments on what has happened so far ...
Under the circumstances presented;
??? … acceptable, unacceptable … ???
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
<< <i>important that I stated my position quickly and definitely, and in relative privacy ... >>
why didn't you allow the other guy in the shop his privacy here...
<< <i>The shop is small, so I can hear and kind of see what is transpiring. I keep my distance, but I cannot help my curiosity. >>
If the shop is small enough that you can't help overhearing the other guys's deal, why would you think your conversation was private? Is there a reason you couldn't wait until the dealer and his customer were done? I mean- it's not like he would have gotten on the phone immediately after the purchase and sold the coins to someone else before you had a chance to talk to him.
Please understand- I'm not trying to give you a hard time here. I guess I've just never understood the attraction of being a spectator in other peoples' business transactions.
<< <i>As stated by many, a critical mistake in business etiquette.
Atrian's answer is the best solution at this point.
Other than buying from the Dealer, in the Dealer's shop ... there is only one possible way to do business in a dealers shop, in my opinion ... and if the dealers are still reading this, I would welcome input here.
Even though this scenario is for "small change" items, I think anything could be used.
Scenario;
I am a collector in Bill's shop. I just came in for my regular (two to three times a month) stroll around and look. I don't always buy things, but I do business with Bill. Bill sometimes knows what I like (for the most part), and is a good guy. We chat about coins ... he occasionally offers up tidbits of wisdom ... I probably am starting to gain a lot more in knowledge by looking and talking to him than I am buying coins from him ... but I pick up a piece or two here and there, and we are on good terms.
this first part is very important, because I would only even consider this again under this situation .... a dealer I have little to no experience or history with could not accept or process this effectively, and so I would have to keep my mouth closed completely
A customer comes in wanting assistance, and Bill excuses himself to attend. A deal is being offered. The shop is small, so I can hear and kind of see what is transpiring. I keep my distance, but I cannot help my curiosity.
In the group are several things I might like to own from what I can tell. Bill probably doesn't know this, because he rarely has such things. I can also tell Bill isn't too keen on making a compelling offer.
I politely ask Bill if I can interrupt him for a moment. He is a little surprised and noticeably aggravated but I stay away from his area where the deal is laid out and in so I am hoping he will come to my side on the shop. I do not approach, but try to express with my body language that my interruption is of importance, maybe.
Bill politely excuses himself from the customer, and comes down to me. He is a little miffed, and rightly so.
Quietly but directly I say something like ... "You know Bill, I really like EF Indians. I can't afford the keys, but if those are nice EF’s (head nod in the general direction of the customer), I could probably buy some of those from you today. I have several hundred dollars with me, and I'd be happy to wait until you're done or come back in a half hour."
important that I stated my position quickly and definitely, and in relative privacy ... and that I offered Bill some information that I was pretty sure he didn't have; that I like a coin that I didn't regularly look for in his shop or buy from him, that I had cash (and how much) to spend, and that I would wait. I also emphasized the grade twice so he would know I was interested in EF Indians, and not Fines or Unc's
Since this is a real situation that transpired pretty close to the way I have stated it about 20 years ago ... if someone reminds me later, I will post what happened.
In the mean time, I'd like dealer comments on what has happened so far ...
Under the circumstances presented;
??? … acceptable, unacceptable … ??? >>
Unacceptable imo. That deal, whether it was for something you like/want or it wasn't, was being conducted with some reasonable expectation of privacy. In short, it was none of your business. Whether the dealer buys it or not, no matter how badly you want to own some of it... is also none of your business- until such time as the dealer decides to offer you something from it after having purchased it. The fact you had money in your pocket is immaterial. Plus, if the shop was small enough that you "overheard" what the guy had, there's an equal chance the seller "overheard" what you were whispering about to the dealer. Thus your "curiosity" (translation-nosiness) might have just either cost the dealer more money to own it (if the seller figured the dealer had a 'live one' ready to buy), or worse yet, cost him the deal itself (if the seller was offended by your whispers about his stuff right under his nose-and yes it happens). I don't know how your deal from 20 years ago played out but imo it doesn't matter, even if you got exactly what you wanted; you still breached etiquette by butting in.
Further, and this is my opinion only, there's something that strikes me as a bit sharklike about waiting around to pounce on the stuff once the guy leaves...and in our store such folks are told that nothing's for sale until after the deal has been processed- i.e. coins sorted, holdered, marked and put out. That's SOP with us.
Comments
<< <i>I would love to see a show promoter kick me out for buying from a collector
It's unfortunate when the bar gets set at "What you can get away with".
IMO, just because you don't get caught doesn't make it okay.
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>
<< <i>if you walk off and catch up to him then there is nothing wrong with making a deal
show promoters will kick you out of a show if they catch you making deals in the isle. I've purchased from collectors at dealers tables who passed on the deal. Easy solution, ask the dealer what he wants for you to make the purchase at his table and everyone is happy. Never had a problem with this solution. >>
I would love to see a show promoter kick me out for buying from a collector
Every coin show has different policies and while some shows will tacitly allow vest-pocket dealings in the aisles, many more shows will post in written signs explicitly forbidding it. It is the responsibility of the show attendee to find out what the policies of a particular show are before engaging in transactions with other attendees.
While you may think it's a laughable notion that a show promoter would be able to throw you out of a show all by themselves, that demeanor and self-righteous attitude quickly dissapears once a few deputy sheriffs are called to physically evict you from the premises. I've seen it happen a few times in the past, and every time police presence is a fast and effective attitude adjuster.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
makes sense when you think of the type of person that wants to operate their own business. While those
of us that are definitely NOT a Type A may wonder about reactions to things that might not bother us
as much, we have to accept the Type A/non Type A differences.
As far as throwing someone out of your shop is concerned, having dealt with both dealers and collectors
for several decades, there are just some people that truly deserve to be ejected, if not catapulted, out the
door.
<< <i>I think CaptHenway is just worried about the cost of adding a second trap door. >>
We have three already! It's a long counter!
But seriously, folks, I have had people walk up to a negotiation in progress where nobody has turned down an offer and try to buy the goods off the counter. Such people are so effing dense that no amount of subtlety can stop them. You have to burn them down to the ground with a flamethrower right then and there.
TD
but, buying it yourself from a customer in the shop...that a no no.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think CaptHenway is just worried about the cost of adding a second trap door. >>
We have three already! It's a long counter!
But seriously, folks, I have had people walk up to a negotiation in progress where nobody has turned down an offer and try to buy the goods off the counter. Such people are so effing dense that no amount of subtlety can stop them. You have to burn them down to the ground with a flamethrower right then and there.
TD >>
THANK YOU. In 3 sentences you have just conveyed my position exactly, Tom.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
IMO, most of us on this board should be old enough to understand the right from wrong, and if you don't understand it by now, you never will. For the younger crowd out there, honesty and class goes a long way...
I feel like there should be a time out for a soap commercial at this point..
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>
<< <i>I agree with this. To add, this is also not acceptable at coin shows. Generally you'd be asked to leave. >>
I wanted to interact really badly at a show when a dealers helper was telling a collector that NCC was bought by PCGS... hence NCC's Morgan grades equaled PCGS.
I would speak up immediately on this one since that's an outright lie and the "dealer" should be shown the friggin door!
As for the OP, the error was in asking the "ustomer"how much he wanted when the OP should have asked the "dealer" how much the guy was asking. No harm in that.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>just as bad, a local coin club wanted to put there coin club flyer in are coin shop, we let them put some on the counter, now another club wants to do the same, the guy from the first club was in are store when a customer was buying morgans he told him about there coin club and that they had a auction with morgans in it ..
i couldnt believe this clown , both clubs will be getting there flyers back , no more helping coin clubs and then getting clubed over the head !! >>
their coin club flyer in our shop
clubbed
................
So did the guy not buy any Morgans from you? Kinda overreactionary on your part IMO. >>
That was a bit difficult to read..........
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I will add....if I were in a B&M and seen the owner trying in a very VERY deceptive manner attempting to "Get Something" from someone, clearly stealing it from them.....Like offering $50 for a double eagle telling them.".heck, it only is worth 20 bucks, it says so on the coin."..ID speak up. >>
Yes, but those are also dealers with whom I would refuse to do business if I ever saw something like that. So in a sense, no real harm, as I'd be leaving anyway.
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<< <i>if you walk off and catch up to him then there is nothing wrong with making a deal
show promoters will kick you out of a show if they catch you making deals in the isle. I've purchased from collectors at dealers tables who passed on the deal. Easy solution, ask the dealer what he wants for you to make the purchase at his table and everyone is happy. Never had a problem with this solution. >>
I would love to see a show promoter kick me out for buying from a collector
Every coin show has different policies and while some shows will tacitly allow vest-pocket dealings in the aisles, many more shows will post in written signs explicitly forbidding it. It is the responsibility of the show attendee to find out what the policies of a particular show are before engaging in transactions with other attendees.
While you may think it's a laughable notion that a show promoter would be able to throw you out of a show all by themselves, that demeanor and self-righteous attitude quickly dissapears once a few deputy sheriffs are called to physically evict you from the premises. I've seen it happen a few times in the past, and every time police presence is a fast and effective attitude adjuster. >>
At the first and only Coin Show where I sat behind the table, I was also the show organizer.
I had gotten a call prior to the show from some "show" dealer (meaning he did not have a store front) inquiring about compete IKE Sets. We worked up a deal and at the show, he drops by with his inventory brief case and I sold him some sets.
Unbeknownst to me, this fellow began showing folks at the show the inventory he had in his brief case. The Local Club president asked me if I thought it was ok for this fellow to do this and we both agreed that since he hadn't paid table fee's, that it was not.
I politely asked the "aisle dealer" to stop showing his wares to which he apologized and agreed that it was a clumsy thing for him to have done. He stopped and the proceeded on smoothly.
NOTE: Each dealer at a coin show has paid for their specific tables and rely upon sales at those shows to at least cover those costs. If a customer walks up to a table and he/she and the dealer cannot come to an agreeable price, to solicit them in the aisle is a big no no since it can only be presumed that perhaps another dealer COULD negotiate a price with the customer. In other words, just because one dealer would not buy does not mean that one of the other dealers will not buy.
If you want to conduct business at a Coin Show, beit buying or selling, then get a friggin table. Otherwise, you will get asked to leave! Coin Show police or not, you are taking potential business away from Table Paying Dealers!
The name is LEE!
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<< <i>just as bad, a local coin club wanted to put there coin club flyer in are coin shop, we let them put some on the counter, now another club wants to do the same, the guy from the first club was in are store when a customer was buying morgans he told him about there coin club and that they had a auction with morgans in it ..
i couldnt believe this clown , both clubs will be getting there flyers back , no more helping coin clubs and then getting clubed over the head !! >>
BTW, did you mosey over to the auction and score some good deals? I'm guessing that you were as much invited as the other guy was. >>
You're implying since the dealer could also go to said auction, the club guy was doing nothing wrong by soliciting the customer in his store. So, by your same "logic", anyone can then go into a coin store and offer to buy things from any other customer who's selling something, as long as they turn to the dealer and say "it's OK, I can try to buy this guy's stuff because I'm equally willing to buy things from you too- so that makes it fair"? Gimme a break. >>
I didn't imply anything. I just asked if the dealer took advantage of the little tidbit of info that just fell onto his lap.
But seriously, folks, I have had people walk up to a negotiation in progress where nobody has turned down an offer and try to buy the goods off the counter. Such people are so effing dense that no amount of subtlety can stop them. You have to burn them down to the ground with a flamethrower right then and there.
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<< <i>......both clubs will be getting there flyers back , no more helping coin clubs and then getting clubed over the head !! >>
I hope the many coin club members find out how you feel about them and boycott your store. >>
Just curious...how is this any different than having someone say "I can sell you Morgans cheaper" to the customer in question? That's basically what the club guy did. He was soliciting the club's Morgans in the guy's store, to a customer who was buying Morgans from him at the time. I'd be mad too.
This thread is actually a huge coincidence. I started a thread on the ebay boards back on the 11th about something very similar where a guy not only solicited someone in our store, he gave the guy his name and number and told him to call him because he was interested in the stuff the guy just inherited...my reaction was a bit stronger than OP's dealer. Maybe I wasn't all that tactful, but a) I was seeing red and b)why be tactful when the goal is to get someone to leave and not come back?
LINK
Text below for those not wanting to follow the link:
Here's the short (well, kinda short...OK, not so short) version of events. In the interest of fairness I present them as close to verbatim as possible-other person's responses are in italics:
I am dealing with this guy...we'll call him customer "A", a guy who comes in perhaps 3-4 times a year max. He was looking for a couple Buffaloes this time, but what we had, as normal with this guy, is either "too nice", "not nice enough", or "more than (he) wanted to spend". Translation: he almost always manages to find a way not to buy something. OK, whatever. I'm used to it. He's pretty well done and just nosing around at this point.
In walks customer "B", who just inherited some coins and brought in a couple of samples...Whitman folders with some silver coins, etc, and was seeking advice at this point on possibly getting things organized, picking up a Redbook and likely having us evaluate the stuff at some point. Customer "A" immediately takes great interest in my conversation with customer "B" and inches towards us, but at this point says nothing.
In strolls customer "C"... I am doing a solo act today so I briefly excuse myself with "B" and acknowledge customer "C", who needs something quick and easy. As I take care of "C", customer "A" sidles up to customer "B", starts chatting him up, opens up "B" 's album, paws through the stuff and proceeds to take out a piece of paper and write down his name and phone number, giving same to "B" and telling him in a suddenly quiet voice to call him.
"C", now taken care of by me, leaves.
I come back intending to resume talking to "B" about what he has and how we can help him, but "B" quickly turns to me, says "thanks, I'll get back with you", or something to that effect, excuses himself and leaves within about 15 seconds, without even having bought the Redbook he was intending to purchase. I'm puzzled as we hadn't really discussed much yet- but then again, not REALLY puzzled, as I had heard enough of their convo to know what just transpired....and inside my head I hear a little "snap"...
This leaves me and customer "A", who now has the guilty look of a kid who just got caught with his hand in the proverbial cookie jar.
I asked him..."Did you just do what I think you did?"
"What's that?"
"Did you just solicit that guy- in OUR store?"
"Not exactly"
"Didn't you just give him your name and number?"
"Uh...yes."
"Told him to call you and said you're interested in buying it?"
"Uh-well-yuh."
"That's what I thought. You were trying to solicit a customer. You just ran head first into my biggest pet peeve. I was talking to him, trying to help him out, you went over, butted in and YOU want to try to muscle in and buy the deal? Oh heck no! Well, I can't control whether you buy THAT deal, but you (darn) sure aren't ever going to buy anything HERE again. Leave."
(snotty tone)"Well, he never actually said he was selling to you..."
"I don't give a (poop) whether he was selling or not. I don't care what he wanted to do, it was none of your (darn) business. Last time I checked, it's our name on the door, not yours. We pay rent and overhead here, not you...he came in to talk to us, not you, with some expectation of privacy I might add... and I don't exist to supply you with a place to hang out and try to score deals with MY customers."
Well, I'm a customer too, I do a lot of business here..."
"Really? You mean like today? All of 2 or 3 times a year you come in, look through everything, waste a bunch of time and don't buy anything...I could have every (bleeping) thing on your want list and you could still find a reason not to buy it...and when you do buy something it's only when you think it's too cheap. And you've got the nerve to pull something like this on top of it all? Trust me, I'm willing to make the sacrifice. Now get out and don't come back. We're done." (This was followed by my best "I dare you to say one more word" face. Ha!
Customer "A" sizes me up for a second (at this point I should note that I am 6-5, 205, which doesn't hurt in such instances )... and then leaves, mumbling something under his breath as he departs. I didn't catch it all, but the f-word was involved. There was a time when I'd have considered following him outside, but I just kept staring as he left.
Our USPS guy came in a few minutes later and asked me why I was all red in the face...
So, my friends, in the interest of making this an educational experience, for myself if nothing else, or perhaps just some entertainment for all of you... here are my questions to you, as impartial "observers" of this altercation, which I have described essentially verbatim...
1. Was Customer "A" wrong to do what he did, or was it not a big deal in your eyes?
2. Was my response appropriate? Inappropriate? Harsh? Not harsh enough?
3. What are your thoughts about Customer "B"?
4. What, if anything, would YOU do differently if you were in my place?
5. What, if anything, would you do if you were in the position of Customer "A", either before approaching "B" or after?
6. As Customer "A" what would your response be after I blew my stack?
I am curious to see what the general sentiment is here and eagerly await your responses.
(Side note...for those who are in the "you should have made nice with A and kept him as a customer" camp... frankly I have no interest in having someone like that back in our shop so they can pull the same thing again... imo anyone who needs to rely on "customers" like that to stay afloat and/or allows them to return has something drastically wrong with their business model.) >>
I would say you were pretty nice about it actually.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
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Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
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<< <i>just as bad, a local coin club wanted to put there coin club flyer in are coin shop, we let them put some on the counter, now another club wants to do the same, the guy from the first club was in are store when a customer was buying morgans he told him about there coin club and that they had a auction with morgans in it ..
i couldnt believe this clown , both clubs will be getting there flyers back , no more helping coin clubs and then getting clubed over the head !! >>
BTW, did you mosey over to the auction and score some good deals? I'm guessing that you were as much invited as the other guy was. >>
You're implying since the dealer could also go to said auction, the club guy was doing nothing wrong by soliciting the customer in his store. So, by your same "logic", anyone can then go into a coin store and offer to buy things from any other customer who's selling something, as long as they turn to the dealer and say "it's OK, I can try to buy this guy's stuff because I'm equally willing to buy things from you too- so that makes it fair"? Gimme a break. >>
I didn't imply anything. I just asked if the dealer took advantage of the little tidbit of info that just fell onto his lap. >>
If so, apologies-given the context of the statement and response it was assumed that was the inference. Sorry.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I side with all of the B&M dealers on this issue. >>
Thank you RYK. I purchased a shop in July of last year and it goes on enough to make me want to scream. Usually I do.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I didn't have a table.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
My Early Large Cents
<< <i>I would wait a few days before going back ,First start off with the apology that you didnt mean ill harm to him or his place of business then explaining that ( if it is true) you wasnt interested in buying but wondering what the seller thought the coins were worth. They may or may not accept your apology ( and maybe some of you would say just cut your losses and walk away right now) but I would make that effort to apologize if i really didnt mean ill harm . If its a dealer youve been going to for years they should know how you are and your intentions so even if you broke a unwritten rule they might have been having justa bad day. Cant hurt in my book. If after that and they ask you to leave again then I would look for a new dealer. >>
I did this when it happened to me. I called the dealer up and apologized if I'd unknowingly crossed some line or violated an unwritten rule. He forgave me, I forgave him, and he ended up being a sort of mentor to me.
Atrian's answer is the best solution at this point.
Other than buying from the Dealer, in the Dealer's shop ... there is only one possible way to do business in a dealers shop, in my opinion ... and if the dealers are still reading this, I would welcome input here.
Even though this scenario is for "small change" items, I think anything could be used.
Scenario;
I am a collector in Bill's shop. I just came in for my regular (two to three times a month) stroll around and look. I don't always buy things, but I do business with Bill. Bill sometimes knows what I like (for the most part), and is a good guy. We chat about coins ... he occasionally offers up tidbits of wisdom ... I probably am starting to gain a lot more in knowledge by looking and talking to him than I am buying coins from him ... but I pick up a piece or two here and there, and we are on good terms.
this first part is very important, because I would only even consider this again under this situation .... a dealer I have little to no experience or history with could not accept or process this effectively, and so I would have to keep my mouth closed completely
A customer comes in wanting assistance, and Bill excuses himself to attend. A deal is being offered. The shop is small, so I can hear and kind of see what is transpiring. I keep my distance, but I cannot help my curiosity.
In the group are several things I might like to own from what I can tell. Bill probably doesn't know this, because he rarely has such things. I can also tell Bill isn't too keen on making a compelling offer.
I politely ask Bill if I can interrupt him for a moment. He is a little surprised and noticeably aggravated but I stay away from his area where the deal is laid out and in so I am hoping he will come to my side on the shop. I do not approach, but try to express with my body language that my interruption is of importance, maybe.
Bill politely excuses himself from the customer, and comes down to me. He is a little miffed, and rightly so.
Quietly but directly I say something like ... "You know Bill, I really like EF Indians. I can't afford the keys, but if those are nice EF’s (head nod in the general direction of the customer), I could probably buy some of those from you today. I have several hundred dollars with me, and I'd be happy to wait until you're done or come back in a half hour."
important that I stated my position quickly and definitely, and in relative privacy ... and that I offered Bill some information that I was pretty sure he didn't have; that I like a coin that I didn't regularly look for in his shop or buy from him, that I had cash (and how much) to spend, and that I would wait. I also emphasized the grade twice so he would know I was interested in EF Indians, and not Fines or Unc's
Since this is a real situation that transpired pretty close to the way I have stated it about 20 years ago ... if someone reminds me later, I will post what happened.
In the mean time, I'd like dealer comments on what has happened so far ...
Under the circumstances presented;
??? … acceptable, unacceptable … ???
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
<< <i>important that I stated my position quickly and definitely, and in relative privacy ... >>
why didn't you allow the other guy in the shop his privacy here...
<< <i>The shop is small, so I can hear and kind of see what is transpiring. I keep my distance, but I cannot help my curiosity. >>
If the shop is small enough that you can't help overhearing the other guys's deal, why would you think your conversation was private? Is there a reason you couldn't wait until the dealer and his customer were done? I mean- it's not like he would have gotten on the phone immediately after the purchase and sold the coins to someone else before you had a chance to talk to him.
Please understand- I'm not trying to give you a hard time here. I guess I've just never understood the attraction of being a spectator in other peoples' business transactions.
Values are important! Saying you have values is not important, but what you do is important!
You can't have true Integrity if you only practice it when someone can observe you.
Integrity is practiced even if no one will ever knows what one does!
<< <i>As stated by many, a critical mistake in business etiquette.
Atrian's answer is the best solution at this point.
Other than buying from the Dealer, in the Dealer's shop ... there is only one possible way to do business in a dealers shop, in my opinion ... and if the dealers are still reading this, I would welcome input here.
Even though this scenario is for "small change" items, I think anything could be used.
Scenario;
I am a collector in Bill's shop. I just came in for my regular (two to three times a month) stroll around and look. I don't always buy things, but I do business with Bill. Bill sometimes knows what I like (for the most part), and is a good guy. We chat about coins ... he occasionally offers up tidbits of wisdom ... I probably am starting to gain a lot more in knowledge by looking and talking to him than I am buying coins from him ... but I pick up a piece or two here and there, and we are on good terms.
this first part is very important, because I would only even consider this again under this situation .... a dealer I have little to no experience or history with could not accept or process this effectively, and so I would have to keep my mouth closed completely
A customer comes in wanting assistance, and Bill excuses himself to attend. A deal is being offered. The shop is small, so I can hear and kind of see what is transpiring. I keep my distance, but I cannot help my curiosity.
In the group are several things I might like to own from what I can tell. Bill probably doesn't know this, because he rarely has such things. I can also tell Bill isn't too keen on making a compelling offer.
I politely ask Bill if I can interrupt him for a moment. He is a little surprised and noticeably aggravated but I stay away from his area where the deal is laid out and in so I am hoping he will come to my side on the shop. I do not approach, but try to express with my body language that my interruption is of importance, maybe.
Bill politely excuses himself from the customer, and comes down to me. He is a little miffed, and rightly so.
Quietly but directly I say something like ... "You know Bill, I really like EF Indians. I can't afford the keys, but if those are nice EF’s (head nod in the general direction of the customer), I could probably buy some of those from you today. I have several hundred dollars with me, and I'd be happy to wait until you're done or come back in a half hour."
important that I stated my position quickly and definitely, and in relative privacy ... and that I offered Bill some information that I was pretty sure he didn't have; that I like a coin that I didn't regularly look for in his shop or buy from him, that I had cash (and how much) to spend, and that I would wait. I also emphasized the grade twice so he would know I was interested in EF Indians, and not Fines or Unc's
Since this is a real situation that transpired pretty close to the way I have stated it about 20 years ago ... if someone reminds me later, I will post what happened.
In the mean time, I'd like dealer comments on what has happened so far ...
Under the circumstances presented;
??? … acceptable, unacceptable … ??? >>
Unacceptable imo. That deal, whether it was for something you like/want or it wasn't, was being conducted with some reasonable expectation of privacy. In short, it was none of your business. Whether the dealer buys it or not, no matter how badly you want to own some of it... is also none of your business- until such time as the dealer decides to offer you something from it after having purchased it. The fact you had money in your pocket is immaterial. Plus, if the shop was small enough that you "overheard" what the guy had, there's an equal chance the seller "overheard" what you were whispering about to the dealer. Thus your "curiosity" (translation-nosiness) might have just either cost the dealer more money to own it (if the seller figured the dealer had a 'live one' ready to buy), or worse yet, cost him the deal itself (if the seller was offended by your whispers about his stuff right under his nose-and yes it happens). I don't know how your deal from 20 years ago played out but imo it doesn't matter, even if you got exactly what you wanted; you still breached etiquette by butting in.
Further, and this is my opinion only, there's something that strikes me as a bit sharklike about waiting around to pounce on the stuff once the guy leaves...and in our store such folks are told that nothing's for sale until after the deal has been processed- i.e. coins sorted, holdered, marked and put out. That's SOP with us.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012