<< <i>But I don't believe that is done as often as you seem to think. >>
Why should it happen at all? If does happen I think that it's time for court action or intervention by the Federal Trade Commission. And yea, I’m smaller government guy, but I have no patience with shilling, that is the topic of the conversation.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>But I don't believe that is done as often as you seem to think. >>
Why should it happen at all? If does happen I think that it's time for court action or intervention by the Federal Trade Commission. And yea, I’m smaller government guy, but I have no patience with shilling, that is the topic of the conversation. >>
I don't know that it even happens, only that you sound as if you think it happens quite a bit.
I've bid in Heritage,Stacks, Goldbergs, Teletrade, David Lawrence, and Ebay Auctions and never had a problem with any of them. Many times I've bought coins for less than my max. bid. I've never felt cheated.
If the benefit to consignors makes it OK for the house to bid up lots, why not let everyone - or at least some other favored bidders - see the highest bidders' max bids?
<< <i>If the benefit to consignors makes it OK for the house to bid up lots, why not let everyone - or at least some other favored bidders - see the highest bidders' max bids? >>
If everyone could see the highest bidders' maximum bid, then the House's unfair advantage would be eliminated.
I'll give Laura credit, she manages to keep her name in the press by being overtly provocative and then taking the post down, apologizing, or softening with explanation. Its the best of both worlds, get the people she calls weenies talking about her and then removes the post that offends power. That's a great strategy until it isn't. The posts may or may not be sensible, but they are always effective. It reminds me of the truism that history isn't written about conformists.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i><< If the benefit to consignors makes it OK for the house to bid up lots, why not let everyone - or at least some other favored bidders - see the highest bidders' max bids? >>
If everyone could see the highest bidders' maximum bid, then the House's unfair advantage would be eliminated. >>
I agree with this completely.
If the "house" wants to bid on a coin, let them do it before the bidding begins by placing a bid in. To bid once the auction opens is an unfair advantage for the house, since they can see the other 'high' bids.
Heritage isn’t mentioned by name, but if any statements were intended to infer that we use our knowledge of a bidder’s maximum proxy to adjust bids or benefit in any other way from this knowledge, such a statement would be false. As most of you know, and hopefully have come to appreciate, we have a very long-term outlook in business. Integrity and ethics are very important to us and we will not permit it to be impugned upon by those who are either ignorant or those pushing a malicious agenda against us. Heritage has built the most informative and transparent auction platform in history. Constructive comments about where we might improve are always welcome, but we are VERY sensitive to statements that might call our integrity into question.
Greg Rohan President HERITAGE AUCTIONS 3500 Maple Avenue Dallas, Texas 75219-3941 Phone: 214-528-3500 / Private fax: 214-409-1596 Email to: Greg@HA.com
<< <i>Heritage isn’t mentioned by name, but if any statements were intended to infer that we use our knowledge of a bidder’s maximum proxy to adjust bids or benefit in any other way from this knowledge, such a statement would be false. As most of you know, and hopefully have come to appreciate, we have a very long-term outlook in business. Integrity and ethics are very important to us and we will not permit it to be impugned upon by those who are either ignorant or those pushing a malicious agenda against us. Heritage has built the most informative and transparent auction platform in history. Constructive comments about where we might improve are always welcome, but we are VERY sensitive to statements that might call our integrity into question. >>
Thank you Greg. No one wears a white hat in this business as a friend of mine once told me, but as far as auction houses are concerned, Heritage has the most transparency of any in the business, which is why 95% of my auction buys are through Heritage, either directly by myself or through an agent.
As large as you guys have become, it certainly would be counterproductive so why in the world would you shoot yourselves in the foot by manipulating bids? Common sense tells me that the revs generated through commissions alone are too great to jeopardize by venturing into that kind of activity and having it come out someday and alienating your customer base.
Mr Rohan, I have participated in Heritage auctions for many years and have had no problems doing so. I have no malicious agenda against Heritage or anyone else.
Having said that, I would hope you would consider prohibiting your employees and their agents from bidding on lots in your own sales. I personally would like to see this across the board from all auction companies.
<< <i>Mr Rohan, I have participated in Heritage auctions for many years and have had no problems doing so. I have no malicious agenda against Heritage or anyone else.
Having said that, I would hope you would consider prohibiting your employees and their agents from bidding on lots in your own sales. I personally would like to see this across the board from all auction companies. >>
Why? And more importantly, how could you ever enforce it? What's to stop employee "X" from calling his sister in law or a friend and having her bid on the item for him?
How about an instance where a dealer consigns an item to a sale, notices a lot of activity online prior to the sale, and has a friend try and bid the piece up even higher... should the auction house be responsible for this kind of activity? How would they possible know?
I don't know what Laura wrote in the post she took down. Speaking from my own experience, with respect to Heritage, I have often purchased coins for less (sometimes far less) than my maximum bid. The most recent example is a FUN purchase -- the coin that I discussed in this thread -- that I won for about half my maximum bid. While I understand that Heritage works for itself and for its consignors, I have never had an experience that led me to conclude that the company manipulates the bidding process by use of insider information.
<< <i>Mr Rohan, I have participated in Heritage auctions for many years and have had no problems doing so. I have no malicious agenda against Heritage or anyone else.
Having said that, I would hope you would consider prohibiting your employees and their agents from bidding on lots in your own sales. I personally would like to see this across the board from all auction companies. >>
Well I started this thread and had no idea it would end up here. I value Laura's opinions and posts and was just hoping to get others' thoughts on her auctions hot topic. She knows a lot more about auction practices that may be a problem and I appreciate learning about some of those practices (knew some, didn't know or think of others).
I have had only good experiences with Heritage and have no complaints (other than a dearth of decent Walkers in their recent auctions, but I can hardly blame them for that). Nor would I call out any other auction house based on my personal experiences. I also think it is inappropriate for anyone to accuse any specific auction outfit of an improper practice unless one knows for a fact that it has occurred.
I do think the question of what is the best way to balance the interests of all parties in the auction business, whether coins, antiques, art, whatever is very slippery. It's easy to take Mark's approach and say that the consignor's interest is paramount and that that justifies a lot. However, that can be carried too far as shill bidding could be argued as in the consignor's best interest but most would agree that it's not appropriate. As long as the auction house bids on coins, there is necessarily a bit of a disadvantage to the other bidders and the question is where you draw the line. Heritage limiting its bidding to before the auction starts seems a fair approach that balances the interests of consignor and bidders but the high, non-house bidder might think otherwise.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
<< <i>< Mr Rohan, I have participated in Heritage auctions for many years and have had no problems doing so. I have no malicious agenda against Heritage or anyone else. Having said that, I would hope you would consider prohibiting your employees and their agents from bidding on lots in your own sales. I personally would like to see this across the board from all auction companies. >>
I was under the impression that Heritage's employees are already NOT permitted to compete against Heritage's customers on a personal level.
As far as HA employees and their agents bidding on HA sales that is probably another matter. A thought came to mind. If Heritage wishes to bid on a lot should it be prohibited? Should it be encouraged? The consignors would probably want to see the auctioneer bid for their own account? Another idea comes to mind. Perhaps in the interest of transparency HA could be permitted to bid ONCE OR JUST TWICE on certain lots in advance such as in the internet proxy bids no less than 24 hours before the proxy bidding closes with full disclosure that the house is bidding such as a different color bid (I have seen the green, reds and blues already)?
If such a move were made by HA, it could change the entire industry. Ideas could be exchanged to tweak this for a win-win-win benefit for the consignor, the bidder and not least, the auctioneer. Of course, this has to be carefully analyzed and hashed out. Of course, I can't be the first person to have mentioned this idea so don't go ballistic on me.
Comments
<< <i>But I don't believe that is done as often as you seem to think. >>
Why should it happen at all? If does happen I think that it's time for court action or intervention by the Federal Trade Commission. And yea, I’m smaller government guy, but I have no patience with shilling, that is the topic of the conversation.
<< <i>
<< <i>But I don't believe that is done as often as you seem to think. >>
Why should it happen at all? If does happen I think that it's time for court action or intervention by the Federal Trade Commission. And yea, I’m smaller government guy, but I have no patience with shilling, that is the topic of the conversation. >>
I don't know that it even happens, only that you sound as if you think it happens quite a bit.
<< <i>If the benefit to consignors makes it OK for the house to bid up lots, why not let everyone - or at least some other favored bidders - see the highest bidders' max bids? >>
If everyone could see the highest bidders' maximum bid, then the House's unfair advantage would be eliminated.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i><< If the benefit to consignors makes it OK for the house to bid up lots, why not let everyone - or at least some other favored bidders - see the highest bidders' max bids? >>
If everyone could see the highest bidders' maximum bid, then the House's unfair advantage would be eliminated. >>
I agree with this completely.
If the "house" wants to bid on a coin, let them do it before the bidding begins by placing a bid in. To bid once the auction opens is an unfair advantage for the house, since they can see the other 'high' bids.
President
HERITAGE AUCTIONS
3500 Maple Avenue
Dallas, Texas 75219-3941
Phone: 214-528-3500 / Private fax: 214-409-1596
Email to: Greg@HA.com
<< <i>Heritage isn’t mentioned by name, but if any statements were intended to infer that we use our knowledge of a bidder’s maximum proxy to adjust bids or benefit in any other way from this knowledge, such a statement would be false. As most of you know, and hopefully have come to appreciate, we have a very long-term outlook in business. Integrity and ethics are very important to us and we will not permit it to be impugned upon by those who are either ignorant or those pushing a malicious agenda against us. Heritage has built the most informative and transparent auction platform in history. Constructive comments about where we might improve are always welcome, but we are VERY sensitive to statements that might call our integrity into question. >>
Thank you Greg. No one wears a white hat in this business as a friend of mine once told me, but as far as auction houses are concerned, Heritage has the most transparency of any in the business, which is why 95% of my auction buys are through Heritage, either directly by myself or through an agent.
As large as you guys have become, it certainly would be counterproductive so why in the world would you shoot yourselves in the foot by manipulating bids? Common sense tells me that the revs generated through commissions alone are too great to jeopardize by venturing into that kind of activity and having it come out someday and alienating your customer base.
John
I have participated in Heritage auctions for many years and have had no problems doing so. I have no malicious agenda against Heritage or anyone else.
Having said that, I would hope you would consider prohibiting your employees and their agents from bidding on lots in your own sales. I personally would like to see this across the board from all auction companies.
<< <i>Mr Rohan,
I have participated in Heritage auctions for many years and have had no problems doing so. I have no malicious agenda against Heritage or anyone else.
Having said that, I would hope you would consider prohibiting your employees and their agents from bidding on lots in your own sales. I personally would like to see this across the board from all auction companies. >>
Why? And more importantly, how could you ever enforce it? What's to stop employee "X" from calling his sister in law or a friend and having her bid on the item for him?
How about an instance where a dealer consigns an item to a sale, notices a lot of activity online prior to the sale, and has a friend try and bid the piece up even higher... should the auction house be responsible for this kind of activity? How would they possible know?
J.
Edit for typo.
<< <i>Mr Rohan,
I have participated in Heritage auctions for many years and have had no problems doing so. I have no malicious agenda against Heritage or anyone else.
Having said that, I would hope you would consider prohibiting your employees and their agents from bidding on lots in your own sales. I personally would like to see this across the board from all auction companies. >>
I think most consignors would prefer otherwise.
I have had only good experiences with Heritage and have no complaints (other than a dearth of decent Walkers in their recent auctions, but I can hardly blame them for that). Nor would I call out any other auction house based on my personal experiences. I also think it is inappropriate for anyone to accuse any specific auction outfit of an improper practice unless one knows for a fact that it has occurred.
I do think the question of what is the best way to balance the interests of all parties in the auction business, whether coins, antiques, art, whatever is very slippery. It's easy to take Mark's approach and say that the consignor's interest is paramount and that that justifies a lot. However, that can be carried too far as shill bidding could be argued as in the consignor's best interest but most would agree that it's not appropriate. As long as the auction house bids on coins, there is necessarily a bit of a disadvantage to the other bidders and the question is where you draw the line. Heritage limiting its bidding to before the auction starts seems a fair approach that balances the interests of consignor and bidders but the high, non-house bidder might think otherwise.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
<< <i>< Mr Rohan,
I have participated in Heritage auctions for many years and have had no problems doing so. I have no malicious agenda against Heritage or anyone else.
Having said that, I would hope you would consider prohibiting your employees and their agents from bidding on lots in your own sales. I personally would like to see this across the board from all auction companies. >>
I was under the impression that Heritage's employees are already NOT permitted to compete against Heritage's customers on a personal level.
As far as HA employees and their agents bidding on HA sales that is probably another matter. A thought came to mind. If Heritage wishes to bid on a lot should it be prohibited? Should it be encouraged? The consignors would probably want to see the auctioneer bid for their own account? Another idea comes to mind. Perhaps in the interest of transparency HA could be permitted to bid ONCE OR JUST TWICE on certain lots in advance such as in the internet proxy bids no less than 24 hours before the proxy bidding closes with full disclosure that the house is bidding such as a different color bid (I have seen the green, reds and blues already)?
If such a move were made by HA, it could change the entire industry. Ideas could be exchanged to tweak this for a win-win-win benefit for the consignor, the bidder and not least, the auctioneer. Of course, this has to be carefully analyzed and hashed out. Of course, I can't be the first person to have mentioned this idea so don't go ballistic on me.