Eac collectors, how does burnishing a coin hurt its value?

AnkurJ

I am looking at a 1793 Lib Cap that was burnished. It isnt cheap and I wondered how much burnishing hurts a coins value, and uts stability.
AJ

MacCrimmon

Don't buy problem coins.

By burnish, they either mean it's been polished (cleaned), and/or recolored.

AnkurJ

With early copper, it's hard to afford problem free unless it is a f2 or an AG3.

joecopper

It hurts but is hard to say - really need to see the coin

As guess VG10 light burnish nets VG8 -- XF40 light burnish nets VF30????

You are right -- probelm free 1793 Liberty Capy well over 25k.. I have VG8 with light roughness in one area with relatively good eye
appeal -- 14-16k

partagas

Don't buy problem coins.

Yes when it comes to widgit coins, but many rare coins are only available in problem condition.

I buy rare problem coins all the time, and many times they are graded by pcgs/ngc. Too each his own. Oh and if they are rare they do hold there value.

Mowgli

I've bought problem rare coins before. Some series are very difficult to complete without buying problem coins. I did buy one half, an 1882, that was whizzed just because it looked so good and was so hard to find (I would not knowingly do that again).

Waltz

Depends on how desperate you are to complete the series. Obviously, problems free coins are better but I purchased many EAC with issues. My 93 Liberty Cap is Anacs with minor tooling (as if there is such a thing as "minor" tooling.) Nets a G4. Paid $1,500 five years ago. I'm glad I bought it and can get my money out of it. But I enjoy the coin and am not particularly bothered by the problem.

ricko

Yes, but someone will buy it anyway. Scarcity forgives many sins. Cheers, RickO

Walkerguy21D

Rare large cents with burnishing still bring good money at the auction.....rare large cents w/o burnishing bring moon money.

AnkurJ

So are there any long term issues with stability?
Most of my early dates are problem free, but with a little one on the way,
I have to buy what I can afford, and not $25k plus.

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>So are there any long term issues with stability?
Most of my early dates are problem free, but with a little one on the way,
I have to buy what I can afford, and not $25k plus. >>


Or you could just wait until you're in a better position to get one that you won't have any concerns about and won't possibly grow to regret buying.

BillJones

The 1793 Liberty Cap cent is a very scarce to rare item. The six Sheldon varieties range in rarity from high R-3 (201 to 300 known) to R-8 (only a couple known). The vast majority of the survivors have surface issues of one sort or another. Therefore unless you are prepared to spend a five or even six figure amount, you can expect the coin to have problems. While I don’t like coins with such problems if I were to get involved with a ’93 Cap, I would expect them.

The reasons for this have to do the nature of the copper that was used in these coins and nature of copper in general. Among the classic coinage metals copper is the most reactive from the chemical standpoint. A piece of pure copper either had to be preserved in a careful manner, or the coin is a fluke. Many early copper coins have been “conserved” to one point or another and that factor, along with copper collector attitudes toward slabbing account for the fact that these coins are so hard to find in holders with “clean” grades on them.

Much of the copper that was used in the ’93 Caps and all of the cents and half cents of the salvaged variety. It contained impurities and the planchets were often not well made. In fact the planchet making operation at the first mint was one of its worst areas and often accounted for bottlenecks in the coin producing process. It is for this reason that first mint began to buy copper planchets from outside sources in 1796.

Whether or not you buy this coin depends upon how much you want it, and how much you want to or can afford to spend. If you can put the money together to buy something better later, I’d consider that. But if you are a collector of limited means, this might be the coin for you. Even if the coin has been burnished it could be right one for you if all of the design elements are visible AND the coin has not been “enhanced” (tooled) to restore detail. I would tend to avoid any coin that has restored hair and other such work.

I hope this helps you make a decision.

Walkerguy21D

<< <i>So are there any long term issues with stability? >>


My thought is probably not....I think most of the burnishing done to large cents was performed a long time ago. I believe it is a mechanical or heating method for smoothing or deburring. I don't think the roughness would return unless it was allowed to re-corrode. And if it was done a long time ago, I don't think the color would change either.

BillJones

<< <i>So are there any long term issues with stability? >>



I can't make the call on that without seeing the coin. Chances are, as the previous poster stated, the burnishing was done many years ago, and the coin is now stable. Given that I would be suspicious if the coin has any red copper color or if there are new looking green spots. If the color is subdued and has the look of “time” that is a good sigh.

okracer

...I know an EAC member that has a burnished 1794 Starred Reverse Cent. It is a CC coin.......he won't let it go for less that $30,000 !!!

BillJones

<< <i>...I know an EAC member that has a burnished 1794 Starred Reverse Cent. It is a CC coin.......he won't let it go for less that $30,000 !!! >>



True, but the Starred Reverse is a very famous and rare variety with a condition census that goes down to VG-8 according to the Breen large cent book. But the point is valid that a famed rarity, like a 1793 Cap cent or a '94 Starred Reverse that has been burnished, is valuable.

More than 30 years ago I cherry picked a dateless 1793 Cap Cent for $10 and sold it for $40. The coin was very porous without a readable date, but I could tell that it was ’93 by the bisecting die crack (S-14) and the beaded border.

lkeigwin

<< <i>The 1793 Liberty Cap cent is a very scarce to rare item. The six Sheldon varieties range in rarity from high R-3 (201 to 300 known) to R-8 (only a couple known). The vast majority of the survivors have surface issues of one sort or another. Therefore unless you are prepared to spend a five or even six figure amount, you can expect the coin to have problems. While I don’t like coins with such problems if I were to get involved with a ’93 Cap, I would expect them.

The reasons for this have to do the nature of the copper that was used in these coins and nature of copper in general. Among the classic coinage metals copper is the most reactive from the chemical standpoint. A piece of pure copper either had to be preserved in a careful manner, or the coin is a fluke. Many early copper coins have been “conserved” to one point or another and that factor, along with copper collector attitudes toward slabbing account for the fact that these coins are so hard to find in holders with “clean” grades on them.

Much of the copper that was used in the ’93 Caps and all of the cents and half cents of the salvaged variety. It contained impurities and the planchets were often not well made. In fact the planchet making operation at the first mint was one of its worst areas and often accounted for bottlenecks in the coin producing process. It is for this reason that first mint began to buy copper planchets from outside sources in 1796.

Whether or not you buy this coin depends upon how much you want it, and how much you want to or can afford to spend. If you can put the money together to buy something better later, I’d consider that. But if you are a collector of limited means, this might be the coin for you. Even if the coin has been burnished it could be right one for you if all of the design elements are visible AND the coin has not been “enhanced” (tooled) to restore detail. I would tend to avoid any coin that has restored hair and other such work.

I hope this helps you make a decision. >>

Nicely said, Bill.
Lance.

jmski52

Thanks for the commentary, Bill. This forum is a great place to pick up good pointers.

AnkurJ

One can learn a great deal by reading the boards. This place is an amazing source and I recommend many newbs to join.

keets

i read burnished to mean "polished" and can't understand why you'd buy a coin like that even though it is rare, expensive and tough. just be patient and save for perhaps a lower grade, problem free example. i would presume you'll be happier in the end.

RWB

Burnishing is done by moving metal on the coin’s surface to obliterate imperfections, but not necessarily “polishing.” In the metal working trades is also implies polishing using hard steel tools, rather than polishing compound. On a coin, burnishing is intended to match surrounding surface texture and appearance.

rays

A nice problem-free 93 liberty cap is rare.
I bought this one raw in a Stacks auction a few years ago. Although it's surfaces are not perfect, it looks better in hand than the photo. PCGS slabbed it as G6. It is the lowest graded large cent I own but I still like it.

The old rule of thumb for 93 liberty caps was $1000/grade point. Now its more like $2000-3000.