<< <i>So when all else is equal how do you decide? Hmm last I checked who won the game is pretty important so yes it should be a tie-breaker. If not for a bullpen giving up 5 runs in his last start he woudl have won 20. >>
Maybe Waino would have won the CYA if he got 20 wins, but he didn't, and the sports writers didn't count "should have won" as a stat.
Here's a challenge for my fellow board member friends who stand on separate sides of the fence with Lincecum vs. Wainwright. If you had to chose from either of these two, and I guess I'll throw Carpenter into the mix, which of these pitchers would you have start a game 7 of a World Series and why?
<< <i>So when all else is equal how do you decide? Hmm last I checked who won the game is pretty important so yes it should be a tie-breaker. If not for a bullpen giving up 5 runs in his last start he woudl have won 20. >>
Maybe Waino would have won the CYA if he got 20 wins, but he didn't, and the sports writers didn't count "should have won" as a stat. It's useless to argue about it. Besides, Carp was more worthy than Waino. >>
Carp was arguably better when he pitched, but the innings differential does not offset that (I don't think). BTW Russ Ortiz 'won' 21 games once (with a 3.81 era at that - barely better than league average). I guess he deserved the Cy Young that year? Hate beating a dead horse, but Wins again should not be used as a major piece of support in a pitchers a value.
Looking for rare Randy Moss rookies and autos, as well as '97 PMG Red Football cards for my set.
The Carpenter of last year was game in and game out the best pitcher. Had he not had his injury and gotten his 6 other starts there would have been no talk about who should win other than him. If the question is this year however I woudl say Lincecum to this point in the year.
<< <i>Strikeouts is the most overdone stat in the game, give me a guy who gets ground ball after ground ball on one pitch compared to usign up pitches striking guys out anyday. >>
When a hitter puts a ball in play, it's out of the pitcher's hands. Anything can happen. If the defense sucks, then errors and runs can occur.
When a hitter strikes out, the only thing that usually happens is an out.
<< <i>Strikeouts is the most overdone stat in the game, give me a guy who gets ground ball after ground ball on one pitch compared to usign up pitches striking guys out anyday. >>
When a hitter puts a ball in play, it's out of the pitcher's hands. Anything can happen. If the defense sucks, then errors and runs can occur.
When a hitter strikes out, the only thing that usually happens is an out. >>
I agree but it takes more pitches to do so thereby decreasing the liklihood of a complete game thereby relying on the bullpen and taking it out of the pitchers hand as you say. How did the bupplen do for him the last game?
<< <i>I agree but it takes more pitches to do so thereby decreasing the liklihood of a complete game thereby relying on the bullpen and taking it out of the pitchers hand as you say. How did the bupplen do for him the last game? >>
Tim threw 106 pitches by the time he was yanked in the 9th. If Tim threw 106 pitches by the 7th inning, that's one thing, but there was no need to yank him in the 9th. That was idiotic moment of micro-managing by the coach. Bochey let him throw 120 pitches in 7 innings against the Cards. When Boch went out to get Lincecum, you could see that he was second guessing himself before he even left the dugout.
Plus, when you've got one of the best bullpens in the league, you don't expect your star closer to suddenly implode like that.
<< <i>When a hitter puts a ball in play, it's out of the pitcher's hands. Anything can happen. If the defense sucks, then errors and runs can occur. When a hitter strikes out, the only thing that usually happens is an out. >>
I agree but it takes more pitches to do so thereby decreasing the liklihood of a complete game thereby relying on the bullpen and taking it out of the pitchers hand as you say. How did the bupplen do for him the last game? >>
You can counter with the strikeouts lead to less hits, and therefore less baserunners and hitters faced...which means more innings pitched. It's not like Lincecum is throwing 5 innings a game, afterall. The bigger issue is when guys walk more going for strikeouts (ie AJ burnett seems to this on occasion). That isn't a problem for him either. Every SP relies on their bullpen to varying degrees...Lincecum less so than others (hence the 7+ innings per start and 10 CG in the previous 2 seasons). K's also become that more valuable when there is a man (or men) on base...unless you want your pitcher to still pitch to contact with the bases loaded and 1 out. I want the guy that can put the batter away when he needs to.
Looking for rare Randy Moss rookies and autos, as well as '97 PMG Red Football cards for my set.
Timmy put the Fish through a wood-chipper for the first 5 innings (11 strikeouts, 2 hits, no walks), then the Florida humidity caught up with him and he gave up a 3 run homer to Hanley. He departed after 7 innings with 13 strikeouts, 1 walk, and 3 earned runs, and got a no-decision.
Seeing the Giants actually come back twice and win it in extras was awesome though.
<< <i>digi- Time to start the 2010 Barry Zito thread! >>
Pretty cool. The season's still young, but I wouldn't have guessed that Zito would ever, at any time, lead the Giants in Wins, ERA, and Innings Pitched.
The contract the Giants gave him a few years ago is still nuts, but at least hes doing better mid-contract, as opposed to in the last year like many other players seem to do.
Until someone else gets the Cy Young award---Lincecum is the best in the Major Leagues. Roy and the kid from Colorado have to last the season. If Roy misses any starts like he usually does, his award chances could go down the drain. It could take 23-24 wins which is awesome.
<< <i>Blegh, 3rd game in a row when the bullpen blew a Lincecum lead. Fortunatly, the Giants are 2-1 in those 3 games. >>
With the bullpen constantly blowing up on him, dude needs to stop throwing 114 pitches in 6 innings.
Fortunately, the Mets bullpen coughed it right back up.
I wonder what David Wright said to the ump when he was tossed after a (bad) called third strike? I don't know that I've ever seen a faster ejection. >>
Last year's should have been Cy Young winner is now 5-1 thanks to a 11 run explosion by his teammates
It would take some serious cajones to trade the best player in the game....even for arguably the best pitcher in the game. As a Pujols owner in fb though, I would hate it. That Giants O is ugly.
Looking for rare Randy Moss rookies and autos, as well as '97 PMG Red Football cards for my set.
The trade idea makes for an interesting debate. Who would be less likely to make that deal? I have to imagine the Cardinals. I have to think the Giant's would have to give something more than just Lincecum to get Pujols. Curious what other rational minded people think?
<< <i>The trade idea makes for an interesting debate. Who would be less likely to make that deal? I have to imagine the Cardinals. I have to think the Giant's would have to give something more than just Lincecum to get Pujols. Curious what other rational minded people think? >>
A-Pu's under contract through 2011 (assuming his team uses their club option). Tim's under team control through 2013.
A-Pu's free-agency price is gonna be HUGE, and if recent history is any indication, the Giants won't be in the market for him.
As a Giants fan, I'd be very disappointed if they made this trade.
Albert's earlier Free Agency calendar is the only thing that makes this a tossup. Either way I don't think Cards would ever make the trade, but I could also see SF saying 'No'. They know how hamstrung they can get paying one guy a big chunk of their payroll...it did them no help with Bonds.
Looking for rare Randy Moss rookies and autos, as well as '97 PMG Red Football cards for my set.
I have a perfect scoring rule change that could be adopted that makes perfect sense, so it will never be implimented, but here is what they should do:
Anytime a pitcher is credited with a blown save in a game and would otherwise be credited with a victory then that victory is given back to whatever pitcher the blown save originated from. Think about how simple and fair it would be and how easy it would be to track. Name me one drawback to this rule. This keeps a reliever from getting a cheap win when all he really did was allow the game to become tied or get behind and then his bats bail him out. I know Lincecum would have benifitted from this rule in his last start but not the one before that as different relievers got the win and the blown save. Carpenter had that happen to him Friday night that kept him from going to 5-0.
Dcaudle, Here's the drawback. Some holds and saves are blown in the 6th inning. To many variables. If a starter goes 5 innings and leads 2-1--Did he do his job? I say no. Starters have to go deeper into games. I'm not talking about Lincecum who is the best in the bigs.
<< <i>Dcaudle, Here's the drawback. Some holds and saves are blown in the 6th inning. To many variables. If a starter goes 5 innings and leads 2-1--Did he do his job? I say no. Starters have to go deeper into games. I'm not talking about Lincecum who is the best in the bigs. >>
I see your point but he still went 5 innings. How does a reliever who goes one inning or less become more deserving simply because it's later in the game when the game was decided? Tyler Clippard Leads the league with a 7-1 record right now, all in relief, not coincidently, he also has 5 blown saves already. Is he truly effective or simply in the right place at the right time?
Wins and losses --If a reliever has too many of either one it is looked upon as him not doing his job(I'm talking about set up men and closers, not middle relief).
Dcaudle, In my heart I agree with you. I hate to see the star pitcher for the team go 8 innings with a 3 run lead and the closer give up 3 runs. This happened to Clemens regularly when he pitched for the Astros.
I'd really like to see a new stat for relief pitchers called something like "Inherited Runs."
Relief pitchers have a unique job, in that they need to get emergency outs. They used to be called "firemen", because they'd come in the game during high pressure situations. Knowing how many inherited runners they allow to score could be a good measure of performance.
Not Lincecum, but looks like Jonathan Sanchez pitched *another* gem for a 1-0 loss. Eight innings, three hits, only one walk.... and one run and a loss.
Looks like the Giants were one 6th inning infield single away from falling victim to another perfect game.
If the Giants had even league average offense, they'd be scary good with that pitching.
<< <i>If the Giants had even league average offense, they'd be scary good with that pitching. >>
On the bright side, Freddy Sanchez is looking good in his rehab right now. Word is he might get activated as early as next week. That'll move Downs back to the bench and have a quailty hitter/fielder batting second.
Now they need to figure out how to get the Panda on the right track.
Timmy wasn't sharp, but a dull Timmy is still more than a match for most teams. Finally got win #5 today after giving up 1 run over 8 innings, even though the closer loaded the bases in the 9th and threw 39 pitches (including a 15 pitch 3rd out).
Looks like a third straight Cy Young is going to be a stretch, especially with Jimenez pitching like Coors Field is the old Polo Grounds..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I haven't seen a pitcher dominate hitters like this since Dwight Gooden in 1985...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Comments
<< <i>So when all else is equal how do you decide? Hmm last I checked who won the game is pretty important so yes it should be a tie-breaker. If not for a bullpen giving up 5 runs in his last start he woudl have won 20. >>
Maybe Waino would have won the CYA if he got 20 wins, but he didn't, and the sports writers didn't count "should have won" as a stat.
It's useless to argue about it.
Besides, Carp was more worthy than Waino.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>So when all else is equal how do you decide? Hmm last I checked who won the game is pretty important so yes it should be a tie-breaker. If not for a bullpen giving up 5 runs in his last start he woudl have won 20. >>
Maybe Waino would have won the CYA if he got 20 wins, but he didn't, and the sports writers didn't count "should have won" as a stat.
It's useless to argue about it.
Besides, Carp was more worthy than Waino.
Carp was arguably better when he pitched, but the innings differential does not offset that (I don't think). BTW Russ Ortiz 'won' 21 games once (with a 3.81 era at that - barely better than league average). I guess he deserved the Cy Young that year? Hate beating a dead horse, but Wins again should not be used as a major piece of support in a pitchers a value.
<< <i>Strikeouts is the most overdone stat in the game, give me a guy who gets ground ball after ground ball on one pitch compared to usign up pitches striking guys out anyday. >>
When a hitter puts a ball in play, it's out of the pitcher's hands. Anything can happen. If the defense sucks, then errors and runs can occur.
When a hitter strikes out, the only thing that usually happens is an out.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>Strikeouts is the most overdone stat in the game, give me a guy who gets ground ball after ground ball on one pitch compared to usign up pitches striking guys out anyday. >>
When a hitter puts a ball in play, it's out of the pitcher's hands. Anything can happen. If the defense sucks, then errors and runs can occur.
When a hitter strikes out, the only thing that usually happens is an out. >>
I agree but it takes more pitches to do so thereby decreasing the liklihood of a complete game thereby relying on the bullpen and taking it out of the pitchers hand as you say. How did the bupplen do for him the last game?
<< <i>I agree but it takes more pitches to do so thereby decreasing the liklihood of a complete game thereby relying on the bullpen and taking it out of the pitchers hand as you say. How did the bupplen do for him the last game? >>
Tim threw 106 pitches by the time he was yanked in the 9th. If Tim threw 106 pitches by the 7th inning, that's one thing, but there was no need to yank him in the 9th. That was idiotic moment of micro-managing by the coach. Bochey let him throw 120 pitches in 7 innings against the Cards. When Boch went out to get Lincecum, you could see that he was second guessing himself before he even left the dugout.
Plus, when you've got one of the best bullpens in the league, you don't expect your star closer to suddenly implode like that.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>When a hitter puts a ball in play, it's out of the pitcher's hands. Anything can happen. If the defense sucks, then errors and runs can occur.
When a hitter strikes out, the only thing that usually happens is an out. >>
I agree but it takes more pitches to do so thereby decreasing the liklihood of a complete game thereby relying on the bullpen and taking it out of the pitchers hand as you say. How did the bupplen do for him the last game? >>
You can counter with the strikeouts lead to less hits, and therefore less baserunners and hitters faced...which means more innings pitched. It's not like Lincecum is throwing 5 innings a game, afterall. The bigger issue is when guys walk more going for strikeouts (ie AJ burnett seems to this on occasion). That isn't a problem for him either. Every SP relies on their bullpen to varying degrees...Lincecum less so than others (hence the 7+ innings per start and 10 CG in the previous 2 seasons). K's also become that more valuable when there is a man (or men) on base...unless you want your pitcher to still pitch to contact with the bases loaded and 1 out. I want the guy that can put the batter away when he needs to.
His 2 consecutive Cy Young Awards is proof of that. What a waste.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Seeing the Giants actually come back twice and win it in extras was awesome though.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Time to start the 2010 Barry Zito thread!
Good for him. I am glad he bounced back. The last couple years must have been rough on him.
As a Dodger fan I still hope your team implodes but glad that Zito is bouncing back.
<< <i>digi- Time to start the 2010 Barry Zito thread! >>
Pretty cool. The season's still young, but I wouldn't have guessed that Zito would ever, at any time, lead the Giants in Wins, ERA, and Innings Pitched.
Zito: 5-0, 1 nd, 1.49 era, 42.1 ip, .921 whip
Tim: 4-0, 2 nd, 1.70 era, 42.1 ip, .827 whip
The contract the Giants gave him a few years ago is still nuts, but at least hes doing better mid-contract, as opposed to in the last year like many other players seem to do.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Article
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>Blegh, 3rd game in a row when the bullpen blew a Lincecum lead. Fortunatly, the Giants are 2-1 in those 3 games. >>
With the bullpen constantly blowing up on him, dude needs to stop throwing 114 pitches in 6 innings.
Fortunately, the Mets bullpen coughed it right back up.
I wonder what David Wright said to the ump when he was tossed after a (bad) called third strike? I don't know that I've ever seen a faster ejection.
<< <i>
<< <i>Blegh, 3rd game in a row when the bullpen blew a Lincecum lead. Fortunatly, the Giants are 2-1 in those 3 games. >>
With the bullpen constantly blowing up on him, dude needs to stop throwing 114 pitches in 6 innings.
Fortunately, the Mets bullpen coughed it right back up.
I wonder what David Wright said to the ump when he was tossed after a (bad) called third strike? I don't know that I've ever seen a faster ejection. >>
Last year's should have been Cy Young winner is now 5-1 thanks to a 11 run explosion by his teammates
<< <i>Last year's should have been Cy Young winner is now 5-1 thanks to a 11 run explosion by his teammates
Yeah, I'm convinced. Any pitcher that's so dominant that his mere mound presence causes his teammates to hit MUST be the best...
<< <i>Last year's should have been Cy Young winner >>
Whine whine whine.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>Last year's should have been Cy Young winner >>
Whine whine whine. >>
He will make sure they can't shaft him this year
<< <i>He will make sure they can't shaft him this year
He could try. The field's packed with guys pitching wickedly: Lincecum, Zito, Ubaldo, Halladay, Wainwright, Livan Hernandez (?!?!)...
Here's two new thread you could start:
1) "The 2010 Adam Wainwright Thread"
and
2) "Adam Wainwright got ripped off in 2009"
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>He will make sure they can't shaft him this year
He could try. The field's packed with guys pitching wickedly: Lincecum, Zito, Ubaldo, Halladay, Wainwright, Livan Hernandez (?!?!)...
Here's two new thread you could start:
1) "The 2010 Adam Wainwright Thread"
and
2) "Adam Wainwright got ripped off in 2009" >>
What's the fun in that?
<< <i>How about a Lincecum for Pujols trade? >>
And see ticket prices DOUBLE? I don't think so!
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>The trade idea makes for an interesting debate. Who would be less likely to make that deal? I have to imagine the Cardinals. I have to think the Giant's would have to give something more than just Lincecum to get Pujols. Curious what other rational minded people think? >>
A-Pu's under contract through 2011 (assuming his team uses their club option).
Tim's under team control through 2013.
A-Pu's free-agency price is gonna be HUGE, and if recent history is any indication, the Giants won't be in the market for him.
As a Giants fan, I'd be very disappointed if they made this trade.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
I have a perfect scoring rule change that could be adopted that makes perfect sense, so it will never be implimented, but here is what they should do:
Anytime a pitcher is credited with a blown save in a game and would otherwise be credited with a victory then that victory is given back to whatever pitcher the blown save originated from. Think about how simple and fair it would be and how easy it would be to track. Name me one drawback to this rule. This keeps a reliever from getting a cheap win when all he really did was allow the game to become tied or get behind and then his bats bail him out. I know Lincecum would have benifitted from this rule in his last start but not the one before that as different relievers got the win and the blown save. Carpenter had that happen to him Friday night that kept him from going to 5-0.
Shane
Here's the drawback. Some holds and saves are blown in the 6th inning. To many variables. If a starter goes 5 innings and leads 2-1--Did he do his job? I say no. Starters have to go deeper into games. I'm not talking about Lincecum who is the best in the bigs.
<< <i>Dcaudle,
Here's the drawback. Some holds and saves are blown in the 6th inning. To many variables. If a starter goes 5 innings and leads 2-1--Did he do his job? I say no. Starters have to go deeper into games. I'm not talking about Lincecum who is the best in the bigs. >>
I see your point but he still went 5 innings. How does a reliever who goes one inning or less become more deserving simply because it's later in the game when the game was decided? Tyler Clippard Leads the league with a 7-1 record right now, all in relief, not coincidently, he also has 5 blown saves already. Is he truly effective or simply in the right place at the right time?
Dcaudle,
In my heart I agree with you. I hate to see the star pitcher for the team go 8 innings with a 3 run lead and the closer give up 3 runs. This happened to Clemens regularly when he pitched for the Astros.
Relief pitchers have a unique job, in that they need to get emergency outs. They used to be called "firemen", because they'd come in the game during high pressure situations. Knowing how many inherited runners they allow to score could be a good measure of performance.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Looks like the Giants were one 6th inning infield single away from falling victim to another perfect game.
If the Giants had even league average offense, they'd be scary good with that pitching.
<< <i>If the Giants had even league average offense, they'd be scary good with that pitching. >>
On the bright side, Freddy Sanchez is looking good in his rehab right now. Word is he might get activated as early as next week. That'll move Downs back to the bench and have a quailty hitter/fielder batting second.
Now they need to figure out how to get the Panda on the right track.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Still, he was in line for a win since the Giants got all those runs back in the top of the 6th.
Tim has NOT been looking good for the last several starts. I just hope he's not nursing a secret injury.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>The bullpen likes to blow leads during his games. >>
The Giants bullpen has a 3.83 era overall, but if you narrow it down to Timmy's starts, the bullpen has a 6.32 era!
In each of his 9 starts this year, when a new Giants pitcher came in, Tim was in line for the win.
Still, Tim got lit up for 5 runs in one inning, if he got the win, it'd be a hollow one. He needs to get his command back.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
-brian
He's now given up 5 walks in each of his last 3 starts.
I read that Tim had a blister on his pitching hand that messed with him in his last start, and is still bothering him tonight obviously.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Looks like a third straight Cy Young is going to be a stretch, especially with Jimenez pitching like Coors Field is the old Polo Grounds.. >>
Jimenez v Lincecum next week when the Rockies come to town. I hope that blister clears up by then!
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>Looks like a third straight Cy Young is going to be a stretch, especially with Jimenez pitching like Coors Field is the old Polo Grounds.. >>
Jimenez v Lincecum next week when the Rockies come to town. I hope that blister clears up by then! >>
This game should be a pitchers dual.
<< <i>This game should be a pitchers dual. >>
SHOULD. The Giants are catching Ubaldo when he's hot, and the Rockies are catching Lincecum when he's been in a slump.
At least the Giants won't be the victim of a no-hitter today.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Lincecum: done after 5.2 innings. 121 pitches, 6 hits, 5 walks, 4 earned runs, 3 strikeouts.
Jimenez: through 5 innings: 2 hits, 1 walk, no runs, 8 strikeouts
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I haven't seen a pitcher dominate hitters like this since Dwight Gooden in 1985... >>
Was that the pre-crack or post-crack Dwight ?
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
<< <i>
<< <i>I haven't seen a pitcher dominate hitters like this since Dwight Gooden in 1985... >>
Was that the pre-crack or post-crack Dwight ? >>
I saw Jimenez pitch part of the game today on TV. To throw 95 and 96 MPH and have that kind of movement is almost not fair.