Why not a minus on a slab?

ecichlid · March 25, 2010 3:40PM

Why not a minus on a slab? I would like to know if a coin is part of the bottom 10-15% of a grade.

Baley · March 25, 2010 4:15PM

nobody likes a negative on their slab... no wonder PCGS doesn't put the flaw word on the Genuine holders... just a number code... no one wants to read, "cleaned", "scratched", "tooled", etc. on their coin holder... just like PCI red failed because no one wants to own a coin in a red warning holder.

I'm surprised anyone uses NCS or any other "net" grader now that the Gennie holder exists.

chucknra · March 25, 2010 5:22PM

If it's not a + then it is automatically a - in my opinion.

morgandollar1878 · March 25, 2010 5:24PM

<< Why not a minus on a slab? I would like to know if a coin is part of the bottom 10-15% of a grade. >>

Put it this way. If you had a coin for sale, would you write down the grade on the 2x2 as ms64-?

To me it does not look good to buyers.

ecichlid · March 26, 2010 1:09AM

Would you rather have an MS65- or a MS64+ on your slab? The plus initiative addresses coins that are top for grade, but not the bottom of the grade. Are you guys saying that slabs are about marketing and not about grade?

ecichlid · March 28, 2010 2:25PM

I guess I should shut up.

CaptHenway · March 28, 2010 2:31PM

Where's that A-bomb emoticon when you need it.........

Justacommeman · March 28, 2010 2:40PM

Sounds like a job for ceiling cat..................MJ

ecichlid · March 28, 2010 4:04PM

<< Where's that A-bomb emoticon when you need it......... >>

Where's the suck-up emoticon when you need it?

divecchia · March 28, 2010 4:12PM

<< If it's not a + then it is automatically a - in my opinion. >>

That's how I look at it also. If it does not have a "+" then it is in the lower ranking of that grade.

Donato

StubbyMcNumbthumbs · March 28, 2010 4:27PM

Maybe PCGS will create another new service, where they will gladly place a "-" (minus) sticker on any of your "Non-PCGS" slabs.

Type2 · March 28, 2010 4:50PM

Why dont they just put on the holder it would have been A MS66 but the hit on his face made it a MS62.

How many coins will end up raw after not geting the + on the holder?

MidLifeCrisis · March 28, 2010 9:00PM

<< Are you guys saying that slabs are about marketing and not about grade? >>

No. I'm saying that slabs - and what they say about the coins - are important to the collectors who own them.

I agree with Baley's answer:

<< nobody likes a negative on their slab... no wonder PCGS doesn't put the flaw word on the Genuine holders... just a number code... no one wants to read, "cleaned", "scratched", "tooled", etc. on their coin holder... just like PCI red failed because no one wants to own a coin in a red warning holder.

I'm surprised anyone uses NCS or any other "net" grader now that the Gennie holder exists. >>

ColonialCoinUnion · March 28, 2010 9:11PM

<< Why not a minus on a slab? >>

Has any company in any industry ever had a successful business labeling some of their product as inferior?

StubbyMcNumbthumbs · March 28, 2010 9:33PM

<< 

<< Why not a minus on a slab? >>

Has any company in any industry ever had a successful business labeling some of their product as inferior? >>

The coin is not their product. The opinion of the coin is their product. The "minus" would be their opinion of the coin, not an opinion of their product.

Their product will only be seen as inferior when it can't be trusted as much as others.

A "64-" would (should) theoretically still be a better coin than a "63+" .

I don't see the problem.

BAJJERFAN · March 28, 2010 10:01PM

<< If it's not a + then it is automatically a - in my opinion. >>

If all of the hotshots didn't need CAC to tell them that a coin was solid for the grad, then they probly don't need the + either. Why should PCGS shoot themselves or their customers in the foot by denigrating 98% of the coins in their holders?

ColonialCoinUnion · March 28, 2010 10:06PM

<< A "64-" would (should) theoretically still be a better coin than a "63+". >>

My understanding is that there is a component of eye appeal in the + designation, and so there is no guarantee that a coin in a 64 holder, for example, would qualify as a 63+. So I disagree with you.

<< I don't see the problem. >>

That's fine, but the use of a - is still never going to happen.

keets · March 28, 2010 10:11PM

Why not a minus on a slab?

this is all getting ridiculous.
why not just cut to the chase and have PCGS just post a price tag on the insert, that way you don't have to do anything but reach for your wallet??

<< If it's not a + then it is automatically a - in my opinion. >>
That's how I look at it also. If it does not have a "+" then it is in the lower ranking of that grade

interesting perspective, i've got another..................................why not just put an MS64 on the insert -or- if it's MS64(-) put MS63 and if it's MS64(+) put MS65??

bidask · March 28, 2010 10:31PM

One of the problems of not having a minus on the slab ( for the coins that deserve them) is that for the unknowing buyer of such coin they are buying an inferior product at most likely a higher price.

I really believe pcgs should grade all raw coins going forward with either a plus for the grade, just the grade, or a minus for the grade. That seems fair and would create a more efficient market in their product.

keets · March 28, 2010 10:35PM

it's funny how so many two short years ago rejected with a very loud thud the notion of a 100 point grade scale, yet now they are soundly behind the same basic thing. why is that??

Placid · March 28, 2010 10:35PM

Ask in the sticky thread about secure plus and see what the boss says

bidask · March 28, 2010 10:41PM

<< it's funny how so many two short years ago rejected with a very loud thud the notion of a 100 point grade scale, yet now they are soundly behind the same basic thing. why is that?? >>

Actually I have admired the 100 point grading scale as I have been familiar with that scale on some european coins ( IE cgs grading service out of the UK) . Maybe because pcgs is now somewhat behind it in some form people are getting behind it more than they did before.

Placid · March 28, 2010 10:46PM

I think its more of a 700 point scale if pcgs is saying a + is a coin that grades .7-.9

bidask · March 28, 2010 10:48PM

<< I think its more of a 700 point scale if pcgs is saying a + is a coin that grades .7-.9

>>

yes thats correct. Thats why I said some form.

Here is the CGS 100 point grading system for comparison.

keets · March 28, 2010 10:59PM

actually, saying it's a 700 point scale as they did is rather misleading since i only count 42 assigned grades which will be on an insert. previously, they used 30 but the scale went form 1-70, so giving them the benefit of the doubt and adding 12 means we really are working with an 82 point scale, but why quibble about numbers??

PO-1 Identifiable date and type
FR-2 Mostly worn, though some detail is visible
AG-3 Worn rims but most lettering is readable though worn
G-4 Slightly worn rims, flat detail, peripheral lettering nearly full
G-6 Rims complete with flat detail, peripheral lettering full
VG-8 Design worn with slight detail
VG-10 Design worn with slight detail, slightly clearer
F-12 Some deeply recessed areas with detail, all lettering sharp
F-15 Slightly more detail in the recessed areas, all lettering sharp
VF-20 Some definition of detail, all lettering full and sharp
VF-25 Slightly more definition in the detail and lettering
VF-30 Almost complete detail with flat areas
VF-35 Detail is complete but worn with high points flat
EF-40 Detail is complete with most high points slightly flat
EF-45 Detail is complete with some high points flat
EF-45+ Detail is complete with a few high points flat. Superior eye appeal.
AU-50 Full detail with friction over most of the surface, slight flatness on high points
AU-50+ Full detail with friction over most of the surface, very slight flatness on high points. Good eye appeal.
AU-53 Full detail with friction over 1/2 or more of surface, very slight flatness on high points
AU-53+ Full detail with friction on only 1/2 of surface, extremely slight flatness on high points. Positive eye appeal.
AU-55 Full detail with friction on less than 1/2 surface, mainly on high points
AU-55+ Full detail with slight friction on less than 1/2 of surface, on high points. Eye appeal is good.
AU-58 Full detail with only slight friction on the high points
AU-58+ Full detail with the barest trace of friction on the highest points. Superior eye appeal.
MS/PR-60 No wear. May have many heavy marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-61 No wear. Multiple heavy marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-62 No wear. Slightly less marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-62+ No wear. Still slightly above number of marks/hairlines, strike may not be full. Attractive eye appeal for grade.
MS/PR-63 Moderate number/size marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-63+ Average number of marks/hairlines, strike will be close to average. Good eye appeal for grade.
MS/PR-64 Few marks/hairlines or a couple of severe ones, strike should be average or above
MS/PR-64+ Very few marks/hairlines or a couple of heavier ones, strike should be average or above. Superior eye appeal.
MS/PR-65 Minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike
MS/PR-65+ Very minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike and eye appeal
MS/PR-66 Few minor marks/hairlines not in focal areas, good strike
MS/PR-66+ Very few minor marks/hairlines not in focal areas, very good strike with superior eye appeal
MS/PR-67 Virtually as struck with minor imperfections, very well struck
MS/PR-67+ Virtually as struck with very minor imperfections, very well struck with attractive eye appeal
MS/PR-68 Virtually as struck with slight imperfections, slightest weakness of strike allowed
MS/PR-68+ Virtually as struck with very slight imperfections, the strike must be virtually full. Eye appeal must be very good.
MS/PR-69 Virtually as struck with minuscule imperfections, near full strike necessary
MS/PR-70 As struck, with

bidask · March 28, 2010 11:14PM

<< actually, saying it's a 700 point scale as they did is rather misleading since i only count 42 assigned grades which will be on an insert. previously, they used 30 but the scale went form 1-70, so giving them the benefit of the doubt and adding 12 means we really are working with an 82 point scale, but why quibble about numbers??

PO-1 Identifiable date and type
FR-2 Mostly worn, though some detail is visible
AG-3 Worn rims but most lettering is readable though worn
G-4 Slightly worn rims, flat detail, peripheral lettering nearly full
G-6 Rims complete with flat detail, peripheral lettering full
VG-8 Design worn with slight detail
VG-10 Design worn with slight detail, slightly clearer
F-12 Some deeply recessed areas with detail, all lettering sharp
F-15 Slightly more detail in the recessed areas, all lettering sharp
VF-20 Some definition of detail, all lettering full and sharp
VF-25 Slightly more definition in the detail and lettering
VF-30 Almost complete detail with flat areas
VF-35 Detail is complete but worn with high points flat
EF-40 Detail is complete with most high points slightly flat
EF-45 Detail is complete with some high points flat
EF-45+ Detail is complete with a few high points flat. Superior eye appeal.
AU-50 Full detail with friction over most of the surface, slight flatness on high points
AU-50+ Full detail with friction over most of the surface, very slight flatness on high points. Good eye appeal.
AU-53 Full detail with friction over 1/2 or more of surface, very slight flatness on high points
AU-53+ Full detail with friction on only 1/2 of surface, extremely slight flatness on high points. Positive eye appeal.
AU-55 Full detail with friction on less than 1/2 surface, mainly on high points
AU-55+ Full detail with slight friction on less than 1/2 of surface, on high points. Eye appeal is good.
AU-58 Full detail with only slight friction on the high points
AU-58+ Full detail with the barest trace of friction on the highest points. Superior eye appeal.
MS/PR-60 No wear. May have many heavy marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-61 No wear. Multiple heavy marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-62 No wear. Slightly less marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-62+ No wear. Still slightly above number of marks/hairlines, strike may not be full. Attractive eye appeal for grade.
MS/PR-63 Moderate number/size marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-63+ Average number of marks/hairlines, strike will be close to average. Good eye appeal for grade.
MS/PR-64 Few marks/hairlines or a couple of severe ones, strike should be average or above
MS/PR-64+ Very few marks/hairlines or a couple of heavier ones, strike should be average or above. Superior eye appeal.
MS/PR-65 Minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike
MS/PR-65+ Very minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike and eye appeal
MS/PR-66 Few minor marks/hairlines not in focal areas, good strike
MS/PR-66+ Very few minor marks/hairlines not in focal areas, very good strike with superior eye appeal
MS/PR-67 Virtually as struck with minor imperfections, very well struck
MS/PR-67+ Virtually as struck with very minor imperfections, very well struck with attractive eye appeal
MS/PR-68 Virtually as struck with slight imperfections, slightest weakness of strike allowed
MS/PR-68+ Virtually as struck with very slight imperfections, the strike must be virtually full. Eye appeal must be very good.
MS/PR-69 Virtually as struck with minuscule imperfections, near full strike necessary
MS/PR-70 As struck, with >>

Now if we only had the minuses in there this scale would be more representative of what is out there in coinland.

BillJones · March 28, 2010 11:35PM

<< Why not a minus on a slab? I would like to know if a coin is part of the bottom 10-15% of a grade. >>

The answer is really simple. If you put negative stuff on the slab, you will kill the market for the coin. Many people would prefer to have coin in the next grade with no negative comments or perhaps a + sign. That would be easier to sell.

To a point it's okay if the TPG explains the problem on a "genuine" or net graded slab. But if it’s on a graded coin, it's going to be a marketing nightmare for the owner.

PerryHall · March 29, 2010 12:08AM

<< 

<< Why not a minus on a slab? >>

Has any company in any industry ever had a successful business labeling some of their product as inferior? >>

I always thought that the PCGS "product" was accurate grading so if a coin was marginal for the grade, it would be entirely appropriate to give the grade a minus.

MrEureka · March 29, 2010 12:08AM

Why not a minus on a slab? I would like to know if a coin is part of the bottom 10-15% of a grade.

They can't do that because, if they did, at least 10-15% of the pre-BigOne slabs would become overgraded by the new standard. That would create risks for unwitting buyers of those coins, and potential liability for PCGS.

PerryHall · March 29, 2010 12:12AM

<< 

<< Why not a minus on a slab? I would like to know if a coin is part of the bottom 10-15% of a grade. >>

The answer is really simple. If you put negative stuff on the slab, you will kill the market for the coin. Many people would prefer to have coin in the next grade with no negative comments or perhaps a + sign. That would be easier to sell.

To a point it's okay if the TPG explains the problem on a "genuine" or net graded slab. But if it’s on a graded coin, it's going to be a marketing nightmare for the owner. >>

If you were offered two coins that were priced the same and that were both accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, would you take the 64+ or the 65-? Wouldn't you prefer the coin with the higher grade?

DCW · March 29, 2010 12:16AM

I think anytime you place a minus sign next to something, it draws a negative connotation regardless of the intention. Pcgs was wise not to start giving out "-"'s. Now if they would have only steered clear of the "+" maybe the hobby wouldnt be in such confusion right now. Sometimes I think its best to leave well enough alone. Grading has always been subjective, so why convolute the marketplace by tweeking the 70 point scale? I really dont care about the europeans; I dont use the metric system either.

ElKevvo · March 29, 2010 12:26AM

Keets...good post.

As far as the - on the slab any coin getting a - would not stay in the slab too long...cracked out and either resubmitted, submitted to a TPG that does not have a +/- system, or sold as a raw coin omitting the - from the description.

K

edited to add a note about the -

PawPaul · March 29, 2010 11:38AM

..........It has worked in schools for many, many decades

A+ , A- , B+ , B- , etc

and when I was a kid , I always thought an A- was better then a B+ !

To be fair , PCGS should by all means implement a minus as well as a plus

ecichlid · March 29, 2010 12:22PM

It appears the majority of posters here would like to see a minus complement the plus. It creates balance and makes sense. Marketing should not be a part of grading and I think that's a weak excuse for not having it. I think PCGS would be better off to use the minus to designate the bottom of the grade.

Personally, I would like to know if a TPG think my coin is bottom of the grade and I don't want to have to send it to another party to find out if this is indeed the case. PCGS had a wonderful opportunity for themselves here and they missed it.

I appreciate the thoughtful replies and I pay little attention to the posts that dismiss the question with mockery. Great people here, thanks again for your opinions!

PerryHall · March 29, 2010 7:24PM

<< Why not a minus on a slab? I would like to know if a coin is part of the bottom 10-15% of a grade.

They can't do that because, if they did, at least 10-15% of the pre-BigOne slabs would become overgraded by the new standard. That would create risks for unwitting buyers of those coins, and potential liability for PCGS. >>

Using your logic, 10-15% of the pre-BigOne slabs are now undergraded by the new standard since they don't have the + that they deserve. Undergraded or overgraded are both misgraded using this new standard.

StubbyMcNumbthumbs · March 29, 2010 7:42PM

...And thus, the delimma of the changing standard.

That is exactly how a company loses credibility. At least with those who are paying attention.

Moving targets are fine for Skeet Shooters, not for dedicated collectors.

garrynot · March 29, 2010 11:49PM

Too much negative connotation to a minus sign. It would negatively affect the market for coins in general. We dont even know how successful the plus sign will be. Some of the comments I've seen would lead one to believe obtaining a plus sign on a coin is better than upgrading a coin in grade.

PerryHall · March 29, 2010 11:55PM

Why is a minus sign necessarily bad? Would you rather own a 65- or a 64+? Which coin has the higher grade? Which coin is more desirable?

garrynot · March 30, 2010 12:40AM

<< Why is a minus sign necessarily bad? Would you rather own a 65- or a 64+? Which coin has the higher grade? Which coin is more desirable? >>

I agree entirely. This plus designation like the NGC star designation only adds more grader opinion to an inexact grading process. The major win here is that PCGS is reacting to the counterfeiting of their product with anti-counterfeiting measures. That is all that matters to me.

crypto79 · March 30, 2010 1:01AM

<< 

<< Why not a minus on a slab? >>

Has any company in any industry ever had a successful business labeling some of their product as inferior? >>

Isn't that what soft core porn means?

TwoSides2aCoin · March 30, 2010 1:09AM

<< Why not a minus on a slab? >>

Is it because because two negatives make a positive ?

I know, it's a groaner.

StubbyMcNumbthumbs · March 30, 2010 4:00PM

<< 

<< Why not a minus on a slab? >>

Is it because because two negatives make a positive ?

I know, it's a groaner. >>

The well-known author and socialolgist summarized his speech before the university crowd by stating that throughout history, in all cultures worldwide, two negatives equate to a positive, but nowhere has two positives equalled a negative.

Just then, a skeptic in the crowd yells out "yeah, yeah" and blew his entire presentation.

ricko · March 30, 2010 11:14PM

I like my coins.

Cheers, RickO

TwoSides2aCoin · March 31, 2010 12:30AM

<< I like my coins.

Cheers, RickO >>

And I enjoy coin people.

So call it even, or odd.
Heads or Tails, you win.

Why not a minus on a slab?

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