How do you feel about the BIG announcement?
BaseballAbs
Posts: 2,621 ✭
How do you feel about the big announcement? I do like the secure plus idea.
Winner of the "You Suck!" award March 17, 2010 by LanLord, doh, 123cents and Bear.
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Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
The new "Plus" designation adds "weight" for the Registry. Is this all worth resubmitting your coins for regrade? Sorry, not me.
I do applaud the laser scanning. My question is how will that effect regrades? If at all.
I think ALL of our coins just became worth LESS!!!!!
<< <i>The coin hobby has transitioned from collecting coins to collecting plastic with "Plus", "Star", "CAC", etc. Soon slabs will need to be double the size to hold all the stickers/designations.
The new "Plus" designation adds "weight" for the Registry. Is this all worth resubmitting your coins for regrade? Sorry, not me.
I do applaud the laser scanning. My question is how will that effect regrades? If at all. >>
For regrades it will not be double counted. Either it stays where it's grade currently is at or it changes. No more pop. puffing.
In the long run, it might decrease the whole number values. I hope not.
It is certainly designed to increase the value of the top percentage of whole number coins which upon regrade become whole "+".
<< <i>I think ALL of our coins just became worth LESS!!!!!
I agree but i like the laser ID's. It's just another way to squeeze more money from the workin' man. Transfer of weath - plain and simple.
<< <i>I think ALL of our coins just became worth LESS!!!!!
"As part of the new PCGS Secure Plus service PCGS is now designated plus grades for coins that are in the high end of their grade. Plus grades will be designated for grades EF45 thru MS/PR68, with the exception of MS/PR60 and 61. We estimate that about 15 to 20% of the coins in a particular grade will be plus grade coins."
Well not all the coins, just EF45 and above.
Yogi Berra
Secondly, any recently graded coin without a "PLUS" is now automatically deemed what? LQ! Hah! Just one fewer decision to make on your own.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
The only benefit I see is that it will eliminate all those "PQ for the Grade" sales pitches.
Of course what's next will be, "Nearly PQ for the Grade"!
The working man collector just got hosed again!
<< <i>The coin hobby has transitioned from collecting coins to collecting plastic with "Plus", "Star", "CAC", etc. Soon slabs will need to be double the size to hold all the stickers/designations.
The new "Plus" designation adds "weight" for the Registry. Is this all worth resubmitting your coins for regrade? Sorry, not me.
I do applaud the laser scanning. My question is how will that effect regrades? If at all. >>
I agree with you 100%
Just keep adding to the already confusing grading standards. Who wants a plus ( + ) sign on the holder? Always finding ways to make them more money.
Oh well, who ever wants to spend money on them go ahead.
At the end, it's all about the money and the hobby loses the real meaning of collecting once again. Sure miss the original grading standards of back then.
<< <i>I think ALL of our coins just became worth LESS!!!!!
I don't think they are worthless yet. Just remember there are other very good and professional grading companies out there "which I personally have been doing more business with and plan to stay with them as well".
First "All piece dollars are ATed" and now "A plus sign and no resubmitting" stuff? Hah! More of a reason to stay away. JMHO...
It will be favorable for some coin dealers but collectors are the ones that are stuck with the tab.
Isn't it great to own a collection you are proud of and not have to worry about all these things like regrading, plus grades, resubmission, extra costs for shipping, etc. I can just enjoy my coins, all slabbed in PCGS holders. Overtime, they will be worth what they are worth. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>I think ALL of our coins just became worth LESS!!!!!
<< <i>I think my coins just got devalued and I am extremely upset. Just try to sell your coins and get the dealer runaround about "Oh... these don't have a plus sign.... and don't have a sticker... blah blah" And on the flip side try buying a stupid plus sign coin from a dealer and pay big money for it. It will be favorable for some coin dealers but collectors are the ones that are stuck with the tab. >>
In many cases, coins that will receive the plus designation would have already been selling for more money than coins which will not receive the plus. That's simply because of differences in quality, which the market was already factoring in. So it's quite possible that the prices for many or most coins will be unaffected by these changes.
I have pretty much decided to stop adding to my registry sets and will only buy 64s, 65s or 66s that have the color appeal I am looking for....I am immediately discontinuing my search for regsistry coins for my 4 sets. I wonder if the unintended consequence is that these high number coins will now have a lot less appeal if others do the same?
Commems and Early Type
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
I owned the finest of the 3 Elgins in PCGS 68
If that coin is the only one that gets a +, it now becomes a pop 1 MS68.5
Is that coin now worth 5K or 10K or 20K more in an auction where the registry big boys are determined to have the highest number plastic in their set?
Commems and Early Type
<< <i>Mark: I have to disagree respectfully that prices wont really change.
I owned the finest of the 3 Elgins in PCGS 68
If that coin is the only one that gets a +, it now becomes a pop 1 MS68.5
Is that coin now worth 5K or 10K or 20K more in an auction where the registry big boys are determined to have the highest number plastic in their set? >>
Mike, in that type of situation, you might be right. But even there, my hunch is that the finest of the three MS68 Elgin's would bring a good premium over the other two, even without a plus designation.
But let's say you disagree with me on that, what part of what I wrote (and which appears below) do you disagree with? Do you think I overstated how many coins will be unaffected by saying "many or most"? Either way, it will be interesting to see what happens.
"In many cases, coins that will receive the plus designation would have already been selling for more money than coins which will not receive the plus. That's simply because of differences in quality, which the market was already factoring in. So it's quite possible that the prices for many or most coins will be unaffected by these changes."
Bruce
Mark: I dont disagree with you at all, you are right, but wanted to point out that at the extreme high end this is going to be a big problem. It will create new pop 1 coins out of thin air and my real issue is changing the rules of the game when so many of us have invested so much into it. I wont reholder all my green label coins so I am no longer a player. After Obamacare, this has been one too many shocks to my system for one week.
Commems and Early Type
<< <i>Bruce: sold the coin back to the King of commems who placed it with a collector a few years ago, it was in a green label holder and stunning should the owner want to share it with us here.
Mark: I dont disagree with you at all, you are right, but wanted to point out that at the extreme high end this is going to be a big problem. It will create new pop 1 coins out of thin air and my real issue is changing the rules of the game when so many of us have invested so much into it. I wont reholder all my green label coins so I am no longer a player. After Obamacare, this has been one too many shocks to my system for one week.
Thanks Mike - you raised a good point I hadn't considered.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Sure, right now I agree with Mark that some of the coins that will eventually get the + would already sell for + money. But a good point was made. For coins right now that are a pop 3/0 or even a pop 10/0 in competitive registry sets, when that first one gets a PCGS designated +, it becomes pop 1/0 in the registry and will likely sell for much more than a really nice looking pop 10/0. That extra .5 point is a "Big One" in some sets. >>
I'm in favor of Secure Plus, but only if it can actually work. Right now, since it's an added service rather than a default action on all new PCGS submissions, there's a few catches.
First, coin doctors are going to avoid it like the plague, because it will stop them from doing their dirty work. They'll opt out as long as they can. Most coin doctors aren't fiddling with $50,000 ultra-rarities so much as $500 coins that are out to take our own hard-earned cash. By not submitting to Secure Plus but instead just plain PCGS Regular, they bypass the system. Right now, a coin in a Secure Plus holder has some future-proofing and some additional tracking features that can aid in recovery from theft.
With this in mind, Secure Plus is doing a service to whoever is buying the coin in the holder more than it is to the person submitting the coin. Collectors lose the ability, degenerate as it may be, of playing the crack-out game and trying to "upgrade" their collection with higher grades on their existing coins. This is not a bad thing, but it feels like a bad thing to the collectors who lose the ability to "play the system." Granted, there's the consolation that a crack-out-worthy coin can get recognized as a floater between grades. But, crack-out casino players probably will avoid Secure Plus just like the coin doctors.
For the system to work, every coin submitted should be scanned by the system, so that coins sent in by coin docs and crack-heads get screened. This would pretty much necessitate Secure Plus becoming a de facto standard feature of submission. This would likely raise prices and delay turnaround times unless PCGS can or has already streamlined the system to get coins through more efficiently without overburdening graders and handlers. (I would not want someone grading my coin to feel rushed!) It's a good idea in theory, but I wonder how effective it will actually be if only partially implemented. One can only keep thieves out of the building at night if all the doors are locked--locking only some of them just makes them have to walk around to the other entrance.
<< <i>First, remember that an MS64+ is still a LOWER grade than an MS65. Second, remember that NGC has been starring coins for a number of years--not so much for a high end of the grade as for simply significantly superior eye appeal. Finally, CAC has been stickering both PCGS and NGC, for coins that are EITHER high end for the grade OR solid for the grade. CAC stickers may add a little to the price, but so far, they haven't really significantly inflated green-beaned coins, and more importantly, they don't seem to be deflating all of ours without the sticker. Since the + designation is more specifically high end, I see it having an effect similar to NGC's star, pushing up the value of a few exceptional coins without significantly affecting anything else.
I'm in favor of Secure Plus, but only if it can actually work. Right now, since it's an added service rather than a default action on all new PCGS submissions, there's a few catches.
First, coin doctors are going to avoid it like the plague, because it will stop them from doing their dirty work. They'll opt out as long as they can. Most coin doctors aren't fiddling with $50,000 ultra-rarities so much as $500 coins that are out to take our own hard-earned cash. By not submitting to Secure Plus but instead just plain PCGS Regular, they bypass the system. Right now, a coin in a Secure Plus holder has some future-proofing and some additional tracking features that can aid in recovery from theft.
With this in mind, Secure Plus is doing a service to whoever is buying the coin in the holder more than it is to the person submitting the coin. Collectors lose the ability, degenerate as it may be, of playing the crack-out game and trying to "upgrade" their collection with higher grades on their existing coins. This is not a bad thing, but it feels like a bad thing to the collectors who lose the ability to "play the system." Granted, there's the consolation that a crack-out-worthy coin can get recognized as a floater between grades. But, crack-out casino players probably will avoid Secure Plus just like the coin doctors.
For the system to work, every coin submitted should be scanned by the system, so that coins sent in by coin docs and crack-heads get screened. This would pretty much necessitate Secure Plus becoming a de facto standard feature of submission. This would likely raise prices and delay turnaround times unless PCGS can or has already streamlined the system to get coins through more efficiently without overburdening graders and handlers. (I would not want someone grading my coin to feel rushed!) It's a good idea in theory, but I wonder how effective it will actually be if only partially implemented. One can only keep thieves out of the building at night if all the doors are locked--locking only some of them just makes them have to walk around to the other entrance. >>
I think that was an outstanding post.
Non plus
WS
I think the PCGS Secure Plus with the coin scanning to recognize previously submitted coins and / or altered coins is a break through worthy of "The Big One" hype.
I can't wait to view some PLUS graded coins in-hand.
GrandAm
Like I have been saying, simple economics dictates that our coins are worth less. I am going to put up a thread to illustrate it shortly.
<< <i>I salute PCGS on this one
I think the PCGS Secure Plus with the coin scanning to recognize previously submitted coins and / or altered coins is a break through worthy of "The Big One" hype.
I can't wait to view some PLUS graded coins in-hand.
GrandAm
And you will come around next time for the even BETTER scanning technology in the next few years from now.... and again... and again.
My beef is that I paid top dollar to get my coins graded correctly and that the grader took proper precautions to examine that coin for all problems. I would rather spend my money on coins and not plus signs. Just my opinion.
A potential downside would be that any coins that didn't get the plus suddenly look less meaningful next to their superlative kin, and they are "locked" into grade, not absolutely, but nearly so, IMHO (are they now the lost and forelorn stepchildren of the set?). I do collect for the enjoyment, but would like to sell my set for the top dollar possible (investment) some day when I want to sell it, and I think that it would potentially sell better and for more if still in the pre-Secure Plus holders.
Any thoughts out there?
I understand what you're saying about a non-plus SecurePlus coin being "locked" in it's grade and potentially being valued less than a coin in a standard holder that folks may believe could be plus worthy or upgradable.
It would cost some money in plastic, but since PCGS failed to make SecurePlus mandatory at this time you could send the set in for regrades under SecurePlus, keep those that upgrade and get the plus designations, then send all of the non-plus coins back in for regrade under the standard service and get them back into normal holders. Seems like it would be a little decepitive, but is apparently allowed. Of course, when the next owner down the line sends the coin in for SecurePlus service, the scanner would match the coin to the previous SecurePlus submission and the grade would likely be the non-plus grade it got the first time, but I'm not sure the new owner would ever know about that.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Dr. Pete:
I understand what you're saying about a non-plus SecurePlus coin being "locked" in it's grade and potentially being valued less than a coin in a standard holder that folks may believe could be plus worthy or upgradable.
It would cost some money in plastic, but since PCGS failed to make SecurePlus mandatory at this time you could send the set in for regrades under SecurePlus, keep those that upgrade and get the plus designations, then send all of the non-plus coins back in for regrade under the standard service and get them back into normal holders. Seems like it would be a little decepitive, but is apparently allowed. Of course, when the next owner down the line sends the coin in for SecurePlus service, the scanner would match the coin to the previous SecurePlus submission and the grade would likely be the non-plus grade it got the first time, but I'm not sure the new owner would ever know about that. >>
Why go through all that hassle?
Resubmit none of them and they might have the "OGH" status of "it might upgrade, never resubmitted it."
That is how I am going to do things when I go to sell.
That's an interesting tactic to consider. However, let's look at the cost of doing this.
As I understand, it would cost me $65 each to submit my 74 coins to PCGS for $4810 slabbing charges plus postage and insurance both ways (add another few hundred dollars at least). Then, let's say I would re-submit 65-70 coins that didn't make the plus again at $65 each that's another $4200-4500 plus postage and insurance. At this point I have spent the better part of $10,000 to do this, and in this scenario have obtained 4-9 half-point upgrades and security protection of the coins still in the plus holders.
There are a lot of coins I could buy for that $10,000 that I think I'd rather have instead of just a few coins graded as +.
Every coin that is submitted to PCGS for regrading will be evaluated by our graders without them knowing if the coin was previously graded, and if so, what that grade was.
When a coin's grade is finalized by the verifier with Secure Plus, he will be notified if the coin has been previously graded and will have digital photographs that he can use for comparison. Obviously this will help us detect if the coin has changed color or been altered in some other way. It does not mean that the coin's grade cannot change if he and the graders believe it should be. I think this will actually help us assign the proper, and best, grade to every coin.
I keep reading this "PCGS does not require SecurePlus grading yet". It's all I can do to pay $18 a coin for grading. When it cost $65 a coin submitting will be OVER for me. That's totaly rediculous!!!!
I'm with Dr. Pete.....that 10,000 could be well spent on coins. I wouldn't even consider doing it!!!
RR
I think Protection Plus is a good idea, but again only if implemented with all submissions, not just those who go in willingly. But, if David Hall announces next year Protection Plus 3G and makes us regrade everything all over again, I swear...
<< <i>
<< <i>I salute PCGS on this one
I think the PCGS Secure Plus with the coin scanning to recognize previously submitted coins and / or altered coins is a break through worthy of "The Big One" hype.
I can't wait to view some PLUS graded coins in-hand.
GrandAm
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ChrisRX wrote:
And you will come around next time for the even BETTER scanning technology in the next few years from now.... and again... and again.
My beef is that I paid top dollar to get my coins graded correctly and that the grader took proper precautions to examine that coin for all problems. I would rather spend my money on coins and not plus signs. Just my opinion. >>
"And you will come around next time for the even BETTER scanning technology in the next few years from now.... and again... and again."
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Yes, I probably will
JMHO, GrandAm