New record for a small cent
EagleEye
Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
0
EagleEye
Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
This coin originally sat in the famous "John Story Jenks Collection". Maybe someone would like to follow up with more information about this famous collector and his coins?
Catalogue of the John Story Jenks collection of coins
ancient Greek, Roman and the entire world, early American colonial and state issues and United States patterns and the regular series
by John Story Jenks
Published in 1921, H. Chapman (Philadelphia)
Catalogue of the John Story Jenks collection of coins
John Story Jenks
Contributions: Chapman, Henry, numismatist
works: Catalogue of the John Story Jenks collection of coins
By statement: catalogued by Henry Chapman, numismatist ... Philadelphia ; to be sold at public auction without reserve by Davis & Harvey, auctioneers ... December 7th to the 17th, inclusive 1921, commencing daily at 1:30 p.m.
Language: English
Pagination: xii, 653, [1] p.
Subject: Coins
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
To support LordM's European Trip, click here!
.....SUPERB SPECIMEN!!
awesome and thanks sharing.
I take it those lines coming off the tip of his nose are die polishing lines? Or perhaps on the slab?
@Largecents on twitter
<< <i>Now there's a coin.
awesome and thanks sharing.
I take it those lines coming off the tip of his nose are die polishing lines? Or perhaps on the slab? >>
Those die lines off the nose are part of the diagnostics for that particular coin.
<< <i>
I take it those lines coming off the tip of his nose are die polishing lines? >>
Yes, it's one of the diagnostics to look for on a 1909 matte proof. should be on the 1909 and the 1909 VDB.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>
<< <i>Now there's a coin.
awesome and thanks sharing.
I take it those lines coming off the tip of his nose are die polishing lines? Or perhaps on the slab? >>
Those die lines off the nose are part of the diagnostics for that particular coin. >>
Ahh, interesting, learn something new every day.
@Largecents on twitter
---------------thanks for the answer before i asked the question!!!
I say crack it and have a nobody send it to the other guy's......50/50 shot at GENUINE ? questionable color? .....just say'n
Barrytrot(2),Stupid,Savoyspecial,docq,ecoinquest, halfhunter,snman,Coll3ctor.
wondercoin. Blue594. internetjunky.
keepdachange. Scrapman1077.Ahrensdad, mrmom, mygrandeoso, blu62vette, Clackamas,giorgio11, adriana, cucamongacoin,
<< <i>I say crack it and have a nobody send it to the other guy's......50/50 shot at GENUINE ? questionable color? .....just say'n >>
Brother, it's the only PR68 VDB out there. Why would anybody crack it out? MPL collectors and dealers have known about it for years. It'll get recognized no matter who sends it in.
(edited to avoid rumor-mongering)
<< <i>I say crack it and have say the odds of you're "'50/50 a nobody send it to the other guy's......50/50 shot at GENUINE ? questionable color? .....just say'n >>
I've seen the coin in person and I believe that your "50/50 shot at GENUINE" is way off base. Even, just based on the images, I would have said somethng similar.
<< <i>
<< <i>I say crack it and have a nobody send it to the other guy's......50/50 shot at GENUINE ? questionable color? .....just say'n >>
Brother, it's the only PR68 VDB out there. Why would anybody crack it out? MPL collectors and dealers have known about it for years. It'll get recognized no matter who sends it in. >>
you've missed the point.
on a side note ...have the other 1,193 been graded ?
Barrytrot(2),Stupid,Savoyspecial,docq,ecoinquest, halfhunter,snman,Coll3ctor.
wondercoin. Blue594. internetjunky.
keepdachange. Scrapman1077.Ahrensdad, mrmom, mygrandeoso, blu62vette, Clackamas,giorgio11, adriana, cucamongacoin,
<< <i>Does the term "private treaty sale" have special meaning? Or does it simply mean " sold through confidential negotiations for more money than I make in a year?" >>
That term is usually used to indicate a direct private sale, as opposed to one via auction or other intermediary. The amount of money involved has nothing to do with it.
"a sale of property at a price agreed on by the seller and buyer without an intervening agency".
<< <i>
yeah... what he said!!!
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
<< <i>on a side note ...have the other 1,193 been graded ? >>
For various reasons only a fraction of that number have survived or are accounted for. PCGS has graded a few over 100 and NGC has 49
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Beautiful coin!
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
I guess the term brokered sale would be more appropriate and I will not argue with lawyers about things I don't know enough about.
As for this coin and this series I do know a few things about. John Albanese likes this coin as certifed NGCPR68RB* coin. It has a CAC sticker, how many of you knew that?
It came out of the mint packaging after it was purchased from the" John Story Jenks collection" in the early 1990's or close to that time period. It was immediately submitted to NGC after the Jenks aution. This is what the coin looked like when purchased from the mint packaging and opened and graded in the early 1990's. A dealer friend of mine, Evan Gale once owned this coin, go ahead and check with him as to what he thinks about it's history and originality. He was the first to own it after the auction purchaser had it graded and then sold to him. He intern sold it to Legend and the to their customer until this sale a few days ago.
The coin is technically perfect and no other PCGS PR67RB cent is an equal to this coin. IMO, I have seen most of the PR67RB PCGS population and they are subordinate to this coin by at least 1 full grade point, IMO. The lines off the nose are a major diagnostic of this coin and IMO, the coin is mark and hairline free.
IMO, and I hope not to ruffle my friend Stewart Blay's feathers, I think this coin is the most magnificent and original 1909 VDB MATTE PR Lincoln cent in existance. If you prefer RED, they are beautiful as well and I could understand if one has a preference for them. This happens to be my favorite coin for the series, and I totally respect anyone who has a different coin of their liking.
Brian
edited for sp.
Who is John Galt?
<< <i>Let me chime in here.
I guess the term brokered sale would be more appropriate and I will not argue with lawyers about things I don't know enough about.
As for this coin and this series I do know a few things about. John Albanese likes this coin as certifed NGCPR68RB* coin. It has a CAC sticker, how many of you knew that?
It came out of the mint packaging after it was purchased from the" John Story Jenks collection" in the early 1990's or close to that time period. It was immediately submitted to NGC after the Jenks aution. This is what the coin looked like when purchased from the mint packaging and opened and graded in the early 1990's. A dealer friend of mine, Evan Gale once owned this coin, go ahead and check with him as to what he thinks about it's history and originality. He was the first to own it after the auction purchaser had it graded and then sold to him. He intern sold it to Legend and the to their customer until this sale a few days ago.
The coin is technically perfect and no other PCGS PR67RB cent is an equal to this coin. IMO, I have seen most of the PR67RB PCGS population and they are subordinate to this coin by at least 1 full grade point, IMO. The lines off the nose are a major diagnostic of this coin and IMO, the coin is mark and hairline free.
IMO, and I hope not to ruffle my friend Stewart Blay's feathers, I think this coin is the most magnificent and original 1909 VDB MATTE PR Lincoln cent in existance. If you prefer RED, they are beautiful as well and I could understand if one has a preference for them. This happens to be my favorite coin for the series, and I totally respect anyone who has a different coin of their liking.
Brian
edited for sp. >>
Brian, for some reason, you sound as if you feel like you need to defend the coin in some way. I certainly don't see why that is, as it's incredible, in terms of technical quality and eye-appeal. I'd be stunned if anyone who has seen it feels otherwise.
Edited to add: I frequently see transactions labeled as "private treaty", even when there is an intermediary, as long as they are non-auction sales.
<< <i>
<< <i>Let me chime in here.
I guess the term brokered sale would be more appropriate and I will not argue with lawyers about things I don't know enough about.
As for this coin and this series I do know a few things about. John Albanese likes this coin as certifed NGCPR68RB* coin. It has a CAC sticker, how many of you knew that?
It came out of the mint packaging after it was purchased from the" John Story Jenks collection" in the early 1990's or close to that time period. It was immediately submitted to NGC after the Jenks aution. This is what the coin looked like when purchased from the mint packaging and opened and graded in the early 1990's. A dealer friend of mine, Evan Gale once owned this coin, go ahead and check with him as to what he thinks about it's history and originality. He was the first to own it after the auction purchaser had it graded and then sold to him. He intern sold it to Legend and the to their customer until this sale a few days ago.
The coin is technically perfect and no other PCGS PR67RB cent is an equal to this coin. IMO, I have seen most of the PR67RB PCGS population and they are subordinate to this coin by at least 1 full grade point, IMO. The lines off the nose are a major diagnostic of this coin and IMO, the coin is mark and hairline free.
IMO, and I hope not to ruffle my friend Stewart Blay's feathers, I think this coin is the most magnificent and original 1909 VDB MATTE PR Lincoln cent in existance. If you prefer RED, they are beautiful as well and I could understand if one has a preference for them. This happens to be my favorite coin for the series, and I totally respect anyone who has a different coin of their liking.
Brian
edited for sp. >>
Brian, for some reason, you sound as if you feel like you need to defend the coin in some way. I certainly don't see why that is, as it's incredible, in terms of technical quality and eye-appeal. I'd be stunned if anyone who has seen it feels otherwise.
Edited to add: I frequently see transactions labeled as "private treaty", even when there is an intermediary, as long as they are non-auction sales. >>
Mark, thanks for the response, I wanted to give the uninformed a little background history about this coin.
<< <i>Simply stunning!!!! >>
Exactly my sentiments!
Red Book lists the mintage at 420 and the other dates in the thousands. The PCGS pop report says they have seen 25% of the VDB's and a far less % of the other dates. MPL's have not been subjected to the REG set fever as much as many other series. And outside of the few who follow the series closely I'd say their overall demand is fairly small. They languished in price up until just the past few years so it's no surprise few bother to submit these. They are probably more the realm of the true collector (than upgrade speculators) than most other proofs of that era. Based on total pop numbers there are still a very large % of MPL's to be graded.
But....a matte proof Lincoln cent regardless of grade doesn't make my list of the greatest small cents, nor would a PF69 1895 Morgan or even a PF70 Barber coin should one ever be graded. These exist in near perfect condition because they were saved from day one. Proofs of all denominations from 1858 and on exist in pretty substantial quantity. Probably only half of the VDB matte proof Lincolns out there have been graded. It's very possible a finer specimen could still show up. I'd probably award the greatest small cent to a mint state specimen. And it wouldn't be the 1919 MS69 either. I need just a tad more cowbell (ie date rarity). What if a MS67/68 RED 1873 DDO, 1955/55 or 1969-s DD showed up, wouldn't those be strong candidates for best small cent? How about the finest of the rare 1943 coppers? Or how about a superb gem RED 1922 plain? Even a MS67 or MS68 RED 1877 if one were to show up? These are coins one wouldn't expect to exist. I fully expect there to be PF68 matte Lincolns, even PF69's. Just my 2 cents.
And if it did come down to picking a proof coin the 1864L with a purported mintage of around 20+ has much more romance and cowbell. It would certainly beat out the 420 mintage of the vdb.
roadrunner
I would like to see this coin crossed to the clear plastic, in pf68.
I'm wondering what the selling price was????
Good post, we all have our favorites and Stewart's 1919 could definately be considered or his RED PR67RD VDB which is spectacular as well. In my post I did state I was talking about "regular issue" coins. I know for a fact there has been a 1943 D copper I believe that exceeded the price of this VDB but I am talking regular issue coins with major varieties excluded. With that stated, I do believe this coin has traded for the highest price of regular issue small cent, all MS and PR 1856 to date.
edited to add: I do disagree with your assumption that a large percentage of these coins await encapsulation. I think that most of the prime examples have been submitted. Steve of this board tracks these coins and through the years can tell us how many coins have been added to the population reports and I don't think their has been dramatic increases, especially with the VDB.
BW
<< <i>Beautiful cent, BUT, the question is, will this cent ever be seen by the PCGS graders?
Apparently it already has. Read Illini420's post toward the end of this thread. Link
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>Probably only half of the matte proof Lincolns out there have been graded.
roadrunner >>
You are correct in that only a small percentage have been graded but I think that is because the vast majority of matte proofs have been lost due to indifference. These coins look so much like mint state coins that the owners simply lost interest and spent them or neglected to tell their heirs what they were and they spent them. I doubt that there are many raw matte proofs left in a collection and the owner knows what it is.
Before TPGs, Walter Breen once said that he loved going through dealer's cases and grabbing up the matte proof Lincolns because even the dealers didn't know what they had.
Barrytrot(2),Stupid,Savoyspecial,docq,ecoinquest, halfhunter,snman,Coll3ctor.
wondercoin. Blue594. internetjunky.
keepdachange. Scrapman1077.Ahrensdad, mrmom, mygrandeoso, blu62vette, Clackamas,giorgio11, adriana, cucamongacoin,
<< <i>my red book show's 09vdb pf at 1,194 pcs. ? >>
Yes, and the 1916 is shown at 600 pieces, there are about 1/2 as many VDB's out there graded as the 1916. What's up with that?
<< <i>I think the MS69 red 1919 is the "The Cent", but that's just me.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
In this thread several posters have made interesting comments and I'd like to respond. Those of us who are very interested in Matte Proof Lincoln cents, (ie) MPL's realize just how scarce these coins are in the hobby today. The nine coins were produced between 1909 and 1916 and the total production was 15,314. Curly accurately states why less than a half of that population remains today. PCGS, NGC and ANACS combined over twenty + years have now reported to have slabbed less than 5,100 and a number of those were crossovers and crackouts. I would venture to say if you have a raw MPL, not graded by PCGS or NGC your coin has little value in the hobby because, without authentication, knowledgeable collectors just wouldn't be comfortable buying one because it very likely is just a mint state example. Manofcoins apparently found that out.
What makes this OP subject so interesting is that the 1909VDB MPL is the rarest of all these MPL coins. The stated mintage was 420 in the Red Book from the book's inception in 1946 until 1998. Then, Kevin Flynn discovered a couple of documents at the US archives and determined that exactly 1,194 of this rarity were delivered to the coiner on August 2nd, 1909 and were declared "good". While the mint actually struck 1,503 of these coins on July 30th, 1909 it was recognized that some were "no good". Anyway, Red Book says they minted 1,194 now and the reality is NOBODY really knows what the correct number is. But it is now recognized by the hobby that only 400 to 600 actually made it into the hands of collectors. I always liked using the traditional number of 420 because it is probably as close as we will ever get to a real number for mintage of 1909VDB MPL's. Matt and Brian point out how ridiculous it is to change mintage numbers for these MPL's after 50 years of reporting the traditional counts. The 1916 had a count of 1,050 until a couple of years ago when suddenly it was determined that only 600 were "made". Who REALLY knows? I'm the first person who will accept changes based on real hard factual information, but if you look at various reports available on these MPL's and you realize that lots and lots of data involving this subject was distroyed by the US Mint in the 1960's you realize it is "just a number" Hope I helped answer a couple of posters comments, And remember, its JMHO. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry