<< <i>I commented on this outstanding example of the 1909VDB MPL in another thread on the Set Registry Forum.
In this thread several posters have made interesting comments and I'd like to respond. Those of us who are very interested in Matte Proof Lincoln cents, (ie) MPL's realize just how scarce these coins are in the hobby today. The nine coins were produced between 1909 and 1916 and the total production was 15,314. Curly accurately states why less than a half of that population remains today. PCGS, NGC and ANACS combined over twenty + years have now reported to have slabbed less than 5,100 and a number of those were crossovers and crackouts. I would venture to say if you have a raw MPL, not graded by PCGS or NGC your coin has little value in the hobby because, without authentication, knowledgeable collectors just wouldn't be comfortable buying one because it very likely is just a mint state example. Manofcoins apparently found that out.
What makes this OP subject so interesting is that the 1909VDB MPL is the rarest of all these MPL coins. The stated mintage was 420 in the Red Book from the book's inception in 1946 until 1998. Then, Kevin Flynn discovered a couple of documents at the US archives and determined that exactly 1,194 of this rarity were delivered to the coiner on August 2nd, 1909 and were declared "good". While the mint actually struck 1,503 of these coins on July 30th, 1909 it was recognized that some were "no good". Anyway, Red Book says they minted 1,194 now and the reality is NOBODY really knows what the correct number is. But it is now recognized by the hobby that only 400 to 600 actually made it into the hands of collectors. I always liked using the traditional number of 420 because it is probably as close as we will ever get to a real number for mintage of 1909VDB MPL's. Matt and Brian point out how ridiculous it is to change mintage numbers for these MPL's after 50 years of reporting the traditional counts. The 1916 had a count of 1,050 until a couple of years ago when suddenly it was determined that only 600 were "made". Who REALLY knows? I'm the first person who will accept changes based on real hard factual information, but if you look at various reports available on these MPL's and you realize that lots and lots of data involving this subject was distroyed by the US Mint in the 1960's you realize it is "just a number" Hope I helped answer a couple of posters comments, And remember, its JMHO. Steve >>
Steve, thank you for that explanation on this one. I just noticed the 420-mintage in my 18th Edition Redbook (1965). I didn't know any of this. Appreciate it!
Since "regular" issue small cent was not clearly defined it makes perfect sense that coins that came off the dies in quantity and intended for circulation merit this status. 25,000 1955 DDO cents clearly are regular issue US coins...and one of the most famous. 25,000 specimens is a lot more than 420 or 1194 depending on which number you believe. One could state that 420 1909 vdb Proof cents weren't "regular" issue US coins but specialized strikes meant only for collectors. The 1955 and 1873 double dies were struck and placed in general circulation.
Even among proofs I'd still give the nod to the 1864 proofs as those were every bit as regular issued coinage as the 1909's but in smaller quantity and at a time when very few collected. I really didn't consider the "fat boy" FE and Copper nickel cents as "small" so if those can be included a killer 1856 in PF67 or better quality could certainly be a candidate.
The primary reason this PF68* 1909vdb Lincoln cent is bringing $200K+ is because of the 68 grade. I wonder if NGC could have fathomed that by upgrading this coin between July '98 - July '01 to PF68 that they were ultimately creating a $200K MPL? (the lone 67RB went from 1 to 0 while the 68RB went from 0 to 1). Would they do it again? By 1998 it was the only 67 in any coloration so NGC clearly felt it was superior to all others technically. At that time there were no RB/BN 66's either but were 5 PF 66 RD's. During this 3 year period there was a lot of upgrading going on at NGC as they were offering authorized dealer incentives to send them back coins. The later 1990's (1996-1999) could be called a frenzy with respect to upgrades being made. It was as if the Elisaberg and Pittman sales set this off.
How does this coin stack up against the other PCGS 66/67's or NGC67's? It's no secret that PCGS is quite a bit tougher of both MS and PF copper than NGC is. There are many very pretty and "starred" NGC coins that won't ever cross over to PCGS. PCGS is particularly conservative on giving a 67 grade to BN/RB copper. It's probably very unlikely they would give a 68 grade to anything but a RED MPL. The fact that the coin is green tagged doesn't matter with PCGS. If the coin could have been crossed to 68 one would think it would have been done already since it would be much more valuable.
PCGS clearly wants the best and rarest coins in their holders whenever they can accomodate it. This is a coin they would dearly want to put in their holder.
since it had a green sticker as an NGC 68RB star, does that mean it gets an automatic gold bean as a PCGS 67RB??
Probably not. If this coin were downgraded at PCGS I seriously doubt XXX would stick their necks out and gold bean it. If I were them I'd go with the flow and then green it. A PF67 could still technically be a 68.3 and not get a gold bean. What's the difference between a .3 and a .4?
In my experience it is generally very tough to cross high grade NGC early type coins (66-69). I've had a number of NGC MS67 seated coins over the years that were clearly solid for the grade but never were able to cross...not even one....and nearly all of them later stickered. One of my finest was an NGC MS67 1839 half dime that had orig been graded around 1990. It was seen twice at PCGS in the 1997-2004 era and failed to cross. I later resubmitted to NGC hoping for a 68 and got a 67* back. It was then green stickered as well. When auctioned it realized over $10,000 which was 4X what average NGC67's were bringing and >2X the typical PCGS 67's. Obviously a number of potential buyers and bidders felt the coin was closer to 68 quality than 67. But it still would never cross. And this was a coin with mostly white centers and Wayte Raymond toning around the perpherals which made it easy to view the whole coin. The minute tics on the coin were easy to find. So a higher grade with green sticker certainly doesn't mean a grade cross, esp. on expensive type coins. Submitting them raw would be the best way to go if one is hoping for a high grade....but has to accept the risk the coin could just as easily downgrade. It's not unusal for coins in the 66-68 range to get any one of those grades on different visits as it's possibly one of the hardest parts of the grading spectrum to achieve concensus.
A better question is how many times was it seen before?
You you!
No doubt the coin is cool and significant. But for my $200K I'd be much more comfortable knowing it has graded both NGC PF68 and PCGS PF68 as well...esp. in a series where RED coins have been treated as superior for a few decades. Silver, gold, and nickel coinage don't have that issue.
Sorry if this has been pointed out before but for $200k the buyer got totally hosed if it now resides in a PCGS 67RB holder. That was a quick 50%/$100k loss IMHO.
<< <i>Sorry if this has been pointed out before but for $200k the buyer got totally hosed if it now resides in a PCGS 67RB holder. That was a quick 50%/$100k loss IMHO. >>
Doubt it. For top-pop rarities the condition census is pretty well known and the coin has probably been compared to the other finest known cents of this date prior to the purchase. If coin A is nicer than coin B when it's in a NGC68RB holder, it's still nicer in it's new holder. The coin stands on it's own merits and the collectors of this series will still treat the coin the same in either holder. This coin is worth about the same in either imho.
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
Brian (Roadrunner) has some interesting points - popularity/fame/price (and throw in opinion). And the OPINION of what is cosidered rare, and even regular issue.
I love the world of coins because it always make me look back at what was happening in the world or with commerce/currency/money (primarily the U.S.) based on the date of a coin. Thanks for the posts on the background OF THIS SINGLE COIN and its history. Brian (BRWC) and Rick Snow are sharing their excitement for the beauty of this particular cent, and congrats for the new owner.
But it really made me think about all the variables that are involved with each particular coin - the graded opinions, the year, marketing, write-ups, when it was made, its authenticity, storied history, rarity and in this case - it made me think - WHAT TYPE OF ISSUE?
REGULAR ISSUE COIN: Not since I read this post did I think about my opinion on what one is. Then I quickly looked up the definition, and my "opinion" turned to fact: The 1943 coppers, the 1944 steelies, etc. ARE REGULAR ISSUE COINS!!! Although considered "errors", they WERE minted with all the other business strike cents, put in a bag, and sent out to the world for commerce use. If the 1955 DD is considered a regular issue, then so would ALL THE OTHER error coins that were mixed in a bag of commerce coinage - 1922 No D, etc. I'm not so concerned that this 1909 is being "post-marketed" as the record holder for REGULAR ISSUE sale price - everyone is just excited about it. But according to the definition of Regular Issue Coinage - 1) Proofs are NOT regular issue, and 2) This coin would not hold the record sale price.
FAME: How popular would the 1943 Copper cent be today had it not been for the story Henry Ford would give a new car for one??? (Though the press may have even fabricated this "rumored" offer).
GRADED OPINION: I'm sure it would have the Eagle Eye Photo Seal, with the CAC, the 68 - all sounds great. Why is it the second I saw it was an NGC 68, I didn't get that "wow" emotion, and I walked away from my computer, ALMOST not completing my reading of this thread??? Why is it I feel (primarily because of the hundreds of cross-over post discussions) that NGC copper grades, (are assumably) a one-grade lower at PCGS? Is this because NGC's grading is more leniant? Or is it because PCGS grades tougher?? Maybe neither of these. I don't care for the answer but ---Why can't both these wonderful TPG giants be neck in neck with grading??? It IS the same coin. A 67 is supposed to be a 67, and a 68, a 68??? Different opinions on different days? Something else?????
The part about 1996 to1999 grade flation bothers me. I know it only has to to with - MONEY.
RARITY: I like what roadrunner posted - I fully agree. MPL's were NOT minted for circulation. Thus, the higher grade possibility is arguably - more likely. 420 1909 VDB's vs. 20 1864L's, no rarity explanation. More years gone by before owners were aware of what they possessed- increases high-grade rarity. Knock down the 420 number because of "proof crack-outs" (transforming coins in a plastic casing to circulation strikes to be spent on ice cream), makes the high-grade survivors even rarer.
The price paid for an item is based on what the market will bear - or sometimes a deep pocket that doesn't care what is needed to own it. Whatever the final price was for this - it's one or the other, or something in-between...
Not a downgrade that I would do without already knowing the answer - but I'm not a Lincoln cent collector so perhaps the nuances of holder values are lost upon me.
Lloyd, it's nice to see we can see eye to eye on some things. Glad to see you back posting. Drop buy to the PM forum once in a while....where all views are welcome.
Sorry if this has been pointed out before but for $200k the buyer got totally hosed if it now resides in a PCGS 67RB holder. That was a quick 50%/$100k loss IMHO.
I don't know if the coin has been submitted and now downgraded by PCGS. Maybe others could chime in on that, esp if no 67RB had previously been graded. My pop report is a bit old but shows zero graded. I would agree that a noticeable loss (though not 50%) would be taken by a drop from NGC68 to PCGS67....possibly on the order of 10-30% based on my experiences with top pop seated coins. Hey, 10% at the $200K+ level is still real money. It's one thing to be a full grade point higher than the next best. It's entirely different to be but a few tenths better at best. Since the REG set drives some of the values on these coins and others like them, there is no extra REG set value over all the other 67's. And the RB's brings less points than the RD's. But the market makes the final determination as to value. Obviously the buyer of this coin was probably not thinking about REG set points or they could have bought a 67RD for much less money and probably more points. They wanted the coin. According to the Legend blog it went to a top collection of MPL's. I was surprised that it was purchased by the first guy 11 yrs ago and that it increased 30% per year in that time. That tells me that even at the "crazy" price paid 11 yrs ago, it should pale to the "insert adjective here" price paid more recently.
Yeah, I like the 1864L as well but would probably have fun owning a gem RED 1969-s DDO or some other monster small cent rarity.
To me and many others going from an NGC MS68 to PCGS MS67 is a cross, not a down grade. And yes, that means going from an NGC 68 grade to a PCGS 68 grade is an upgrade. Truth.
<< <i>To me and many others going from an NGC MS68 to PCGS MS67 is a cross, not a down grade. And yes, that means going from an NGC 68 grade to a PCGS 68 grade is an upgrade. Truth. >>
That's silly - dropping a grade is not a cross in any stretch of the imagination.
If I disagree with the grade assigned by NGC, then I'll downgrade it. I've done it several times before. If I agree with the grade, then I'll keep it in the NGC holder. Right now, some pretty darn nice coins are in NGC holders in my collection ... and there's no way they're getting downgraded.
There are many examples of top pop classic coins where downgrading one point while moving from NGC to PCGS plastic results in very little or no change in value while managing to get it in PCGS plastic at the same grade can have a massive positive impact on value. Disagree?
I too had the honor of holding and examining this coin in person when the new owner gave it to Todd at my table to photograph, and please allow me confirm everyone else's comments that this coin is ABSOLUTELY STUNNING and FAR MORE EYE APPEALING and BEAUTIFUL than ANY other Matte Proof I've EVER seen (Curly and Matt, I have seen your sets and know that they are also extremely amazing and I can only aspire to have a set like yours). Todd's photo does a fantastic job at bringing out the truly dazzling tones and colorful hues on this coin, but in hand, the rainbow jewel tones just blow away any red MPL I've seen (sorry Stewart, I have to agree with Brian on this one). I will never forget this coin, and I doubt anyone else who appreciates Matte Proof Lincolns and sees this coin will either.
Edited to add: The coin is one of a kind and extremely unique in its quality and color - "it is what it is" whatever holder it resides in, and no one can dispute that.
Think about it how many people would put a quarter million dollars on the line for a maybe cross to PCGS. I would not be surprise if submitting the coin to PCGS with a minimum crossing grade of PR68RB was part of the deal. Maybe the seller was offered say $15K if it did not cross as compensation. I have no specific knowledge of the deal but just a suggestion of how I might setup a deal in this situation. It’s a win/win for buyer and seller either way.
There are many examples of top pop classic coins where downgrading one point while moving from NGC to PCGS plastic results in very little or no change in value while managing to put it in PCGS plastic at the same grade can have a massive positive impact. Disagree?
Certainly not in the MS/PF 64-69 Bust, Barber and Seated area where I spend most of my time. Usually a point downgrade in these areas is roughly halving of the price. There's no way a point downgrade from NGC to PCGS won't sacrifice a minimum of a 20-30% drop in value. I'm sure there are specific coins where a 1 pt might make little difference. But the 1804 PF68 silver dollar would certainly be affected if it dropped a point esp. with a 67 already sitting below it. I'm convinced that that $4 MILL price tag was pushed along by the 68 grade...even if just 20%. Now the J-1776 Indian gold pattern would probably not be affected by price regardless if it graded 65/66 or say 67/68. But the PF68 MPL would certainly be affected by a 1 pt. drop. After all, the value of a coin is initially determined by its technical grade. Eye appeal is then factored into it. The primary and most well known exceptions are coins like Morgan dollar and classic commem monster toners. Most other US series are not collected with "monster toning" being a pre-requisite for top set building, type coins included. If the above were not true then one would have to be willing to say that this 1909 vdb MPL would be worth $100K or more even if technically graded 65 or 66 due to some minor marks/hairlines....because the eye appeal and color is the primary price driver. If it's just about eye appeal then there should be buyers lined up to pay $100K for that color even in much lower technical grades.
<< <i>There are many examples of top pop classic coins where downgrading one point while moving from NGC to PCGS plastic results in very little or no change in value while managing to put it in PCGS plastic at the same grade can have a massive positive impact. Disagree?
Certainly not in the MS/PF 64-69 Bust, Barber and Seated area where I spend most of my time. Usually a point downgrade in these areas is roughly halving of the price. There's no way a point downgrade from NGC to PCGS won't sacrifice a minimum of a 20-30% drop in value. I'm sure there are specific coins where a 1 pt might make little difference. But the 1804 PF68 silver dollar would certainly be affected if it dropped a point esp. with a 67 already sitting below it. I'm convinced that that $4 MILL price tag was pushed along by the 68 grade...even if just 20%. Now the J-1776 Indian gold pattern would probably not be affected by price regardless if it graded 65/66 or say 67/68. But the PF68 MPL would certainly be affected by a 1 pt. drop. After all, the value of a coin is initially determined by its technical grade. Eye appeal is then factored into it. The primary and most well known exceptions are coins like Morgan dollar and classic commem monster toners. Most other US series are not collected with "monster toning" being a pre-requisite for top set building, type coins included. If the above were not true then one would have to be willing to say that this 1909 vdb MPL would be worth $100K or more even if technically graded 65 or 66 due to some minor marks/hairlines....because the eye appeal and color is the primary price driver. If it's just about eye appeal then there should be buyers lined up to pay $100K for that color even in much lower technical grades.
roadrunner >>
I'm talking about top pop coins (where NGC is sometimes/normally quite liberal compared with PCGS).
I'm talking about top pop coins (where NGC is sometimes/normally quite liberal compared with PCGS).
All the major coins I listed were top pop coins just like the 1909 vdb PF68 MPL. It's of course a matter of opinion of whether the MPL fits that "sometimes/normally" quite liberal definition. If it is/was downgraded by PCGS I would submit that the description applies to this coin. The lack of a cross at PCGS (or a downgrade) would speak volumes. And by definition if NGC is handing out a MS68 grade on a type coin worth thousands or more, the odds are quite favorable their standards are sometimes/normally quite liberal compared to PCGS. One only has to look at how many times NGC hands out MS/PF 68's vs. PCGS. Obviously if PCGS graded similarly to NGC at the 68 level, they would have a similar % of coins across the type coin spectrum in that grade......and they don't.
Unless a coin was later downgraded by 2 or more MS points I can't see where a 1 pt downgrade at PCGS would be considered a good thing. I recall a top pop NGC MS66 seated half that was severely overgraded. Now had PCGS crossed that coin one pt lower it would have made the coin much more valuable and it still would have been a top pop and finest known. In essence the coin was really just an average to low end 64 that had got a massive bump up in grade coming out of a major name auction in the 1990's. The coin was later downgraded 1 pt by NGC but realized a so-so MS64 price at it's next auction in the 65 holder. A PCGS 65 would have realized 3X or more that price. So there's one example where a 1 pt downgrade would have realized a higher price.....for an honestly graded coin. But since the coin was not all-there, the odds of PCGS crossing that coin 1 pt down would have been next to NIL.
If a 1909 VDB MPL cent was graded by PCGS as PR67RB pop 1/0 what is it worth?
Lets see, a couple of decent 1909 VDB MPL Cents graded by PCGS as PR64RB have sold for over $40,000. The coins had no significant toning.
Then there was a "nicely toned" 1909 VDB graded by PCGS as PR66RB when the population was 7/0. This coin was sold by a dealer "who knows" this series for over 100K?? The facts are, in many instances spectacular toned MPL cents in PCGS holders are bringing more money than there red counter parts.
PCGS Set Registy participants who love toned BN and RB coins like to compete with each other to so see who can get the highest weighted set without a "RED" coin in their set. I have asked PCGS to break the R/B and BN's into there own category and they said let us think about it. PCGS Set Registry competitors need there coins in PCGS holders because they won't allow "NGC" coins to compete. So what if the most stunning toned 1909VDB MPL cent got into a PCGS PR67RB holder for starters? it would be a pop 1/0 and could play in the Registry set game
Recently a 1916 PCGS PR67RB 1/0 pop sold for very strong money, which I will not disclose out of respect for my customers privacy.
BW
Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
I agree that there are coins that retain their value even if dropped a point to get into PCGS holders. I think that there are many many more that only lose 10-15% which I would consider perhaps an acceptable loss - I myself have done this a few times. However, in most instances the higher graded NGC coin is worth more unless it is clearly misgraded. If this is the case, then the coin may actually be worth MORE in a point lower PCGS holder. I've seen it happen.
Whether this particular coin is one of the above, I leave to those with better first hand knowledge. All I really dispute is the blanket statement that dropping an NGC coin one grade to put it in a PCGS holder is 'crossing' the coin. It is not except in very limited circumstances.
A few examples of coins that I have dropped in grade:
The Knoxville 1860 dollar graded by NGC as MS67 and the finest known by 2 points. I felt the quality more acurately reflected MS66. I purchased the coin for $115k in auction and dropped it a point at PCGS. I figured it at $100k after the drop - even tho it was still the finest known.
The MS65 1857 in my seated dollar set went unsold for some time in an NGC 66 holder. The strike just didn't support the grade. Eventually, I approached the dealer and said that I could see the coin in a PCGS 65 holder and would pay that amount for it - which still gave him quite a profit as he had upgraded it from a rattler 64. I bought it and dropped the grade and didn't lose a cent. So everyone was happy in the end.
A few examples of coins that I have refused to drop in grade:
The Eliasberg 1885 trade dollar. Graded PF66 by NGC and I was repeated told that PCGS would 65 CAM the coin. I just disagreed with the 65 grade so I kept it as it was. Although the value of the coin may not have been affected, the stigma of being one of the very few ultra rarities to actually go DOWN a grade [hahaha] was certainly there.
A beautiful 1870-CC seated dollar that was graded MS64 by NGC. I was told that PCGS would 63 the coin, but I figured that amounted to a 50% loss in value as the price I paid was significantly higher than what a 63 was worth. In the end, I just sold it off as I wasn't going to take a $60k hit on the coin.
<< <i>A few examples of coins that I have dropped in grade:
The Knoxville 1860 dollar graded by NGC as MS67 and the finest known by 2 points. I felt the quality more acurately reflected MS66. I purchased the coin for $115k in auction and dropped it a point at PCGS. I figured it at $100k after the drop - even tho it was still the finest known.
The MS65 1857 in my seated dollar set went unsold for some time in an NGC 66 holder. The strike just didn't support the grade. Eventually, I approached the dealer and said that I could see the coin in a PCGS 65 holder and would pay that amount for it - which still gave him quite a profit as he had upgraded it from a rattler 64. I bought it and dropped the grade and didn't lose a cent. So everyone was happy in the end.
A few examples of coins that I have refused to drop in grade:
The Eliasberg 1885 trade dollar. Graded PF66 by NGC and I was repeated told that PCGS would 65 CAM the coin. I just disagreed with the 65 grade so I kept it as it was. Although the value of the coin may not have been affected, the stigma of being one of the very few ultra rarities to actually go DOWN a grade [hahaha] was certainly there.
A beautiful 1870-CC seated dollar that was graded MS64 by NGC. I was told that PCGS would 63 the coin, but I figured that amounted to a 50% loss in value as the price I paid was significantly higher than what a 63 was worth. In the end, I just sold it off as I wasn't going to take a $60k hit on the coin. >>
The one coin I have refused to accept a downgrade to cross is my avatar. It is currently in an NGC 64 PL slab. It has sold for strong PCGS 64 money twice in the last 6 or 7 years. I love the coin and perhaps naively expect that PCGS will someday like it as much as I (and NGC apparently) do(es).
I have numerous times in the past year permitted PCGS to cross scarcer NGC Silver Washington quarter variety coins into whatever grade holder they deem fit. Many times (but not always) the variety is a coin PCGS either has not yet seen or has graded just a couple coins to date. In a few cases, I realized I was risking a substantial amount of "value on paper" especially if PCGS would have downgraded the coin(s) by 2 points. My thinking was that I had no intention of selling the collection for years anyway and if I ended up with some seriously undergraded coins in the set, I could deal with it down the line. The benefit was that I was filling holes with coins I already owned. Thus far, I have only had to deal with 1 point loses (at most) on the crossovers and I have no regrets about crossing any of the coins. Of course, my story involves sub-$5,000 coins. My strategies might obviously change if "six figure" coins were at issue.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I have to say, if there's a 67RD for the date, I would never have lowered the coin unless it was clearly overgraded which in this case it's not. You just don't take the finest known and put it behind another.
<< <i>I have to say, if there's a 67RD for the date, I would never have lowered the coin unless it was clearly overgraded which in this case it's not. You just don't take the finest known and put it behind another. >>
I beg to differ with you because I have seen the majority of all the PCGS PR67RB MPL Cents graded in the series(picture to follow) and this coin is easliy a grade point above them all.
Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
I am lucky enough to have the full size images of the 1909 VDB. On the plane ride home I pulled the up for while and was looking at them. I just dont see anything that looks like a mark on this coin. On my screen I can see about 20% of the coin due to image size and still dont see anything to bring it down. It is great to have images like this to play with at my disposal.
<< <i>I have to say, if there's a 67RD for the date, I would never have lowered the coin unless it was clearly overgraded which in this case it's not. You just don't take the finest known and put it behind another. >>
I beg to differ with you because I have seen the majority of all the PCGS PR67RB MPL Cents graded in the series(picture to follow) and this coin is easliy a grade point above them all. >>
It would appear you missed TDN's point. He mentioned 67RD not 67RB, the point being if this coin re-graded PCGS PR67RB, it would not be considered the finest as compared to a PR67RD. If this coin easily grades a point better, then PCGS will call it a PR68RB and most of the comments in this thread are moot.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
I beg to differ with you because I have seen the majority of all the PCGS PR67RB MPL Cents graded in the series(picture to follow) and this coin is easliy a grade point above them all.
Thank you for making my point for me so succinctly.
[Point being that if you agree with the grade on the insert that you never should have agreed to downgrade the coin]
<< <i>I beg to differ with you because I have seen the majority of all the PCGS PR67RB MPL Cents graded in the series(picture to follow) and this coin is easliy a grade point above them all.
Thank you for making my point for me so succinctly. >>
Bruce,
Respectfully, I should have said "in my opinion" and you are entitled to yours. I specialize in this series and have seen a number of nice MATTES and happen to think this is the best out there. "Hi Stewart"
,I would also like to say that 2 of the top 4 ranked "RED" PCGS registry owners have said that this coin could be the most beautiful VDB in existance and the other told me it was the most beautiful MATTE proof in existance, all dates and grades included.
Brian
Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
I believe the coin to be totally awesome - you may be misinterpreting my statements.
I do not like the politics involved in downgrading a coin that is 'clearly a grade finer' than the other coins in its grade level - and I'm being verbal about it. Grading should be about accuracy, not about registry games and politics.
<< <i>I beg to differ with you because I have seen the majority of all the PCGS PR67RB MPL Cents graded in the series(picture to follow) and this coin is easliy a grade point above them all.
Thank you for making my point for me so succinctly.
[Point being that if you agree with the grade on the insert that you never should have agreed to downgrade the coin] >>
Once again we have different opinions on this subject. To me and the new owner of this coin it is more valuable in this holder than the NGC holder. It can also be included in the PCGS Set Registry which is very important to the new owner. I guess I will have to round up 5 or 6 of the other PCGS PR67RB's out there and put them in front of David along with this coin. Darn, I wish they still had presidential review.
Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
<< <i>I believe the coin to be totally awesome - you may be misinterpreting my statements.
I do not like the politics involved in downgrading a coin that is 'clearly a grade finer' than the other coins in its grade level - and I'm being verbal about it. Grading should be about accuracy, not about registry games and politics. >>
Now we are in agreement!
Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
To me and the new owner of this coin it is more valuable in this holder than the NGC holder...
But what if the coin had never been upgraded in the first place to NGC PF68? Would the coin still be worth the same money today knowing it's only grading events since coming out of Story Jenks was 67RB?
<< <i>To me and the new owner of this coin it is more valuable in this holder than the NGC holder...
But what if the coin had never been upgraded in the first place to NGC PF68? Would the coin still be worth the same money today knowing it's only grading events since coming out of Story Jenks was 67RB?
roadrunner >>
This 1909 VDB MPL cent is the finest R/B Matte proof in existance, imo and many others. Since one of the nicer PR66RB's (pop 7/0) have sold a bit north of $100k that says quite alot. I have sold half of the PCGS PR67RB MPL population and none of them come close to this coin. The coin is undergraded as PR67RB POP 1/0 and imo, definately worth money north of 200K.
Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
<< <i>To me and the new owner of this coin it is more valuable in this holder than the NGC holder...
But what if the coin had never been upgraded in the first place to NGC PF68? Would the coin still be worth the same money today knowing it's only grading events since coming out of Story Jenks was 67RB?
roadrunner >>
This 1909 VDB MPL cent is the finest R/B Matte proof in existance, imo and many others. Since one of the nicer PR66RB's (pop 7/0) have sold a bit north of $100k that says quite alot. I have sold half of the PCGS PR67RB MPL population and none of them come close to this coin. The coin is undergraded as PR67RB POP 1/0 and imo, definately worth money north of 200K. >>
If I owned a coin that NGC and CAC both thought deserved a PR68RB and felt that in a PCGS PR67 holder "The coin is undergraded as PR67RB..." I would leave it in its PR68RB holder. And that would not change, due to registry set participation. Still, I firmly believe in "to each his ow"n with respect to collecting.
Registry set collecting is an animal I do not know or pretend to understand. I guess at the end of the day it's the same coin regardless. The coin doesn't know what holder it's in so I doubt that it's feelings will be hurt...................MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Since one of the nicer PR66RB's (pop 7/0) have sold a bit north of $100k that says quite alot.
7/1 now.
While I agree with what you say, there's no way I would pay an extra $100k for a single point [ie: going from a PQ66 to a PQ67]. Basically, you're relying on the inference that the coin is still a 68 to justify its value.
Comments
<< <i>I commented on this outstanding example of the 1909VDB MPL in another thread on the Set Registry Forum.
In this thread several posters have made interesting comments and I'd like to respond. Those of us who are very interested in Matte Proof Lincoln cents, (ie) MPL's realize just how scarce these coins are in the hobby today. The nine coins were produced between 1909 and 1916 and the total production was 15,314. Curly accurately states why less than a half of that population remains today. PCGS, NGC and ANACS combined over twenty + years have now reported to have slabbed less than 5,100 and a number of those were crossovers and crackouts. I would venture to say if you have a raw MPL, not graded by PCGS or NGC your coin has little value in the hobby because, without authentication, knowledgeable collectors just wouldn't be comfortable buying one because it very likely is just a mint state example. Manofcoins apparently found that out.
What makes this OP subject so interesting is that the 1909VDB MPL is the rarest of all these MPL coins. The stated mintage was 420 in the Red Book from the book's inception in 1946 until 1998. Then, Kevin Flynn discovered a couple of documents at the US archives and determined that exactly 1,194 of this rarity were delivered to the coiner on August 2nd, 1909 and were declared "good". While the mint actually struck 1,503 of these coins on July 30th, 1909 it was recognized that some were "no good". Anyway, Red Book says they minted 1,194 now and the reality is NOBODY really knows what the correct number is. But it is now recognized by the hobby that only 400 to 600 actually made it into the hands of collectors. I always liked using the traditional number of 420 because it is probably as close as we will ever get to a real number for mintage of 1909VDB MPL's. Matt and Brian point out how ridiculous it is to change mintage numbers for these MPL's after 50 years of reporting the traditional counts. The 1916 had a count of 1,050 until a couple of years ago when suddenly it was determined that only 600 were "made". Who REALLY knows? I'm the first person who will accept changes based on real hard factual information, but if you look at various reports available on these MPL's and you realize that lots and lots of data involving this subject was distroyed by the US Mint in the 1960's you realize it is "just a number" Hope I helped answer a couple of posters comments, And remember, its JMHO. Steve
Steve, thank you for that explanation on this one. I just noticed the 420-mintage in my 18th Edition Redbook (1965). I didn't know any of this. Appreciate it!
Even among proofs I'd still give the nod to the 1864 proofs as those were every bit as regular issued coinage as the 1909's but in smaller quantity and at a time when very few collected. I really didn't consider the "fat boy" FE and Copper nickel cents as "small" so if those can be included a killer 1856 in PF67 or better quality could certainly be a candidate.
The primary reason this PF68* 1909vdb Lincoln cent is bringing $200K+ is because of the 68 grade. I wonder if NGC could have fathomed that by upgrading this coin between July '98 - July '01 to PF68 that they were ultimately creating a $200K MPL? (the lone 67RB went from 1 to 0 while the 68RB went from 0 to 1). Would they do it again? By 1998 it was the only 67 in any coloration so NGC clearly felt it was superior to all others technically. At that time there were no RB/BN 66's either but were 5 PF 66 RD's. During this 3 year period there was a lot of upgrading going on at NGC as they were offering authorized dealer incentives to send them back coins. The later 1990's (1996-1999) could be called a frenzy with respect to upgrades being made. It was as if the Elisaberg and Pittman sales set this off.
How does this coin stack up against the other PCGS 66/67's or NGC67's? It's no secret that PCGS is quite a bit tougher of both MS and PF copper than NGC is. There are many very pretty and "starred" NGC coins that won't ever cross over to PCGS. PCGS is particularly conservative on giving a 67 grade to BN/RB copper. It's probably very unlikely they would give a 68 grade to anything but a RED MPL. The fact that the coin is green tagged doesn't matter with PCGS. If the coin could have been crossed to 68 one would think it would have been done already since it would be much more valuable.
PCGS clearly wants the best and rarest coins in their holders whenever they can accomodate it. This is a coin they would dearly want to put in their holder.
roadrunner
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Probably not. If this coin were downgraded at PCGS I seriously doubt XXX would stick their necks out and gold bean it. If I were them I'd go with the flow and then green it. A PF67 could still technically be a 68.3 and not get a gold bean. What's the difference between a .3 and a .4?
In my experience it is generally very tough to cross high grade NGC early type coins (66-69). I've had a number of NGC MS67 seated coins over the years that were clearly solid for the grade but never were able to cross...not even one....and nearly all of them later stickered. One of my finest was an NGC MS67 1839 half dime that had orig been graded around 1990. It was seen twice at PCGS in the 1997-2004 era and failed to cross. I later resubmitted to NGC hoping for a 68 and got a 67* back. It was then green stickered as well. When auctioned it realized over $10,000 which was 4X what average NGC67's were bringing and >2X the typical PCGS 67's. Obviously a number of potential buyers and bidders felt the coin was closer to 68 quality than 67. But it still would never cross. And this was a coin with mostly white centers and Wayte Raymond toning around the perpherals which made it easy to view the whole coin. The minute tics on the coin were easy to find. So a higher grade with green sticker certainly doesn't mean a grade cross, esp. on expensive type coins. Submitting them raw would be the best way to go if one is hoping for a high grade....but has to accept the risk the coin could just as easily downgrade. It's not unusal for coins in the 66-68 range to get any one of those grades on different visits as it's possibly one of the hardest parts of the grading spectrum to achieve concensus.
roadrunner
<< <i>Beautiful cent, BUT, the question is, will this cent ever be seen by the PCGS graders?
A better question is how many times was it seen before.
The Op coin is really cool in my book.
You
No doubt the coin is cool and significant. But for my $200K I'd be much more comfortable knowing it has graded both NGC PF68 and PCGS PF68 as well...esp. in a series where RED coins have been treated as superior for a few decades. Silver, gold, and nickel coinage don't have that issue.
roadrunner
<< <i>Sorry if this has been pointed out before but for $200k the buyer got totally hosed if it now resides in a PCGS 67RB holder. That was a quick 50%/$100k loss IMHO. >>
Doubt it. For top-pop rarities the condition census is pretty well known and the coin has probably been compared to the other finest known cents of this date prior to the purchase. If coin A is nicer than coin B when it's in a NGC68RB holder, it's still nicer in it's new holder. The coin stands on it's own merits and the collectors of this series will still treat the coin the same in either holder. This coin is worth about the same in either imho.
I love the world of coins because it always make me look back at what was happening in the world or with commerce/currency/money (primarily the U.S.) based on the date of a coin. Thanks for the posts on the background OF THIS SINGLE COIN and its history. Brian (BRWC) and Rick Snow are sharing their excitement for the beauty of this particular cent, and congrats for the new owner.
But it really made me think about all the variables that are involved with each particular coin - the graded opinions, the year, marketing, write-ups, when it was made, its authenticity, storied history, rarity and in this case - it made me think - WHAT TYPE OF ISSUE?
REGULAR ISSUE COIN: Not since I read this post did I think about my opinion on what one is. Then I quickly looked up the definition, and my "opinion" turned to fact:
The 1943 coppers, the 1944 steelies, etc. ARE REGULAR ISSUE COINS!!! Although considered "errors", they WERE minted with all the other business strike cents, put in a bag, and sent out to the world for commerce use. If the 1955 DD is considered a regular issue, then so would ALL THE OTHER error coins that were mixed in a bag of commerce coinage - 1922 No D, etc.
I'm not so concerned that this 1909 is being "post-marketed" as the record holder for REGULAR ISSUE sale price - everyone is just excited about it. But according to the definition of Regular Issue Coinage - 1) Proofs are NOT regular issue, and 2) This coin would not hold the record sale price.
FAME: How popular would the 1943 Copper cent be today had it not been for the story Henry Ford would give a new car for one??? (Though the press may have even fabricated this "rumored" offer).
GRADED OPINION: I'm sure it would have the Eagle Eye Photo Seal, with the CAC, the 68 - all sounds great. Why is it the second I saw it was an NGC 68, I didn't get that "wow" emotion, and I walked away from my computer, ALMOST not completing my reading of this thread??? Why is it I feel (primarily because of the hundreds of cross-over post discussions) that NGC copper grades, (are assumably) a one-grade lower at PCGS? Is this because NGC's grading is more leniant? Or is it because PCGS grades tougher?? Maybe neither of these. I don't care for the answer but ---Why can't both these wonderful TPG giants be neck in neck with grading??? It IS the same coin. A 67 is supposed to be a 67, and a 68, a 68??? Different opinions on different days? Something else?????
The part about 1996 to1999 grade flation bothers me. I know it only has to to with - MONEY.
RARITY: I like what roadrunner posted - I fully agree. MPL's were NOT minted for circulation. Thus, the higher grade possibility is arguably - more likely. 420 1909 VDB's vs. 20 1864L's, no rarity explanation. More years gone by before owners were aware of what they possessed- increases high-grade rarity. Knock down the 420 number because of "proof crack-outs" (transforming coins in a plastic casing to circulation strikes to be spent on ice cream), makes the high-grade survivors even rarer.
The price paid for an item is based on what the market will bear - or sometimes a deep pocket that doesn't care what is needed to own it. Whatever the final price was for this - it's one or the other, or something in-between...
Ladies and Gentlemen, place your bets
Not a downgrade that I would do without already knowing the answer - but I'm not a Lincoln cent collector so perhaps the nuances of holder values are lost upon me.
Sorry if this has been pointed out before but for $200k the buyer got totally hosed if it now resides in a PCGS 67RB holder. That was a quick 50%/$100k loss IMHO.
I don't know if the coin has been submitted and now downgraded by PCGS. Maybe others could chime in on that, esp if no 67RB had previously been graded. My pop report is a bit old but shows zero graded. I would agree that a noticeable loss (though not 50%) would be taken by a drop from NGC68 to PCGS67....possibly on the order of 10-30% based on my experiences with top pop seated coins. Hey, 10% at the $200K+ level is still real money. It's one thing to be a full grade point higher than the next best. It's entirely different to be but a few tenths better at best. Since the REG set drives some of the values on these coins and others like them, there is no extra REG set value over all the other 67's. And the RB's brings less points than the RD's. But the market makes the final determination as to value. Obviously the buyer of this coin was probably not thinking about REG set points or they could have bought a 67RD for much less money and probably more points. They wanted the coin. According to the Legend blog it went to a top collection of MPL's. I was surprised that it was purchased by the first guy 11 yrs ago and that it increased 30% per year in that time. That tells me that even at the "crazy" price paid 11 yrs ago, it should pale to the "insert adjective here" price paid more recently.
Yeah, I like the 1864L as well but would probably have fun owning a gem RED 1969-s DDO or some other monster small cent rarity.
roadrunner
Who is John Galt?
<< <i>To me and many others going from an NGC MS68 to PCGS MS67 is a cross, not a down grade. And yes, that means going from an NGC 68 grade to a PCGS 68 grade is an upgrade. Truth. >>
That's silly - dropping a grade is not a cross in any stretch of the imagination.
If I disagree with the grade assigned by NGC, then I'll downgrade it. I've done it several times before. If I agree with the grade, then I'll keep it in the NGC holder. Right now, some pretty darn nice coins are in NGC holders in my collection ... and there's no way they're getting downgraded.
Who is John Galt?
Edited to add: The coin is one of a kind and extremely unique in its quality and color - "it is what it is" whatever holder it resides in, and no one can dispute that.
The Penny Lady®
Certainly not in the MS/PF 64-69 Bust, Barber and Seated area where I spend most of my time. Usually a point downgrade in these areas is roughly halving of the price. There's no way a point downgrade from NGC to PCGS won't sacrifice a minimum of a 20-30% drop in value. I'm sure there are specific coins where a 1 pt might make little difference. But the 1804 PF68 silver dollar would certainly be affected if it dropped a point esp. with a 67 already sitting below it. I'm convinced that that $4 MILL price tag was pushed along by the 68 grade...even if just 20%. Now the J-1776 Indian gold pattern would probably not be affected by price regardless if it graded 65/66 or say 67/68. But the PF68 MPL would certainly be affected by a 1 pt. drop. After all, the value of a coin is initially determined by its technical grade. Eye appeal is then factored into it. The primary and most well known exceptions are coins like Morgan dollar and classic commem monster toners. Most other US series are not collected with "monster toning" being a pre-requisite for top set building, type coins included. If the above were not true then one would have to be willing to say that this 1909 vdb MPL would be worth $100K or more even if technically graded 65 or 66 due to some minor marks/hairlines....because the eye appeal and color is the primary price driver. If it's just about eye appeal then there should be buyers lined up to pay $100K for that color even in much lower technical grades.
roadrunner
<< <i>There are many examples of top pop classic coins where downgrading one point while moving from NGC to PCGS plastic results in very little or no change in value while managing to put it in PCGS plastic at the same grade can have a massive positive impact. Disagree?
Certainly not in the MS/PF 64-69 Bust, Barber and Seated area where I spend most of my time. Usually a point downgrade in these areas is roughly halving of the price. There's no way a point downgrade from NGC to PCGS won't sacrifice a minimum of a 20-30% drop in value. I'm sure there are specific coins where a 1 pt might make little difference. But the 1804 PF68 silver dollar would certainly be affected if it dropped a point esp. with a 67 already sitting below it. I'm convinced that that $4 MILL price tag was pushed along by the 68 grade...even if just 20%. Now the J-1776 Indian gold pattern would probably not be affected by price regardless if it graded 65/66 or say 67/68. But the PF68 MPL would certainly be affected by a 1 pt. drop. After all, the value of a coin is initially determined by its technical grade. Eye appeal is then factored into it. The primary and most well known exceptions are coins like Morgan dollar and classic commem monster toners. Most other US series are not collected with "monster toning" being a pre-requisite for top set building, type coins included. If the above were not true then one would have to be willing to say that this 1909 vdb MPL would be worth $100K or more even if technically graded 65 or 66 due to some minor marks/hairlines....because the eye appeal and color is the primary price driver. If it's just about eye appeal then there should be buyers lined up to pay $100K for that color even in much lower technical grades.
roadrunner >>
I'm talking about top pop coins (where NGC is sometimes/normally quite liberal compared with PCGS).
Who is John Galt?
All the major coins I listed were top pop coins just like the 1909 vdb PF68 MPL. It's of course a matter of opinion of whether the MPL fits that "sometimes/normally" quite liberal definition. If it is/was downgraded by PCGS I would submit that the description applies to this coin. The lack of a cross at PCGS (or a downgrade) would speak volumes. And by definition if NGC is handing out a MS68 grade on a type coin worth thousands or more, the odds are quite favorable their standards are sometimes/normally quite liberal compared to PCGS. One only has to look at how many times NGC hands out MS/PF 68's vs. PCGS. Obviously if PCGS graded similarly to NGC at the 68 level, they would have a similar % of coins across the type coin spectrum in that grade......and they don't.
Unless a coin was later downgraded by 2 or more MS points I can't see where a 1 pt downgrade at PCGS would be considered a good thing. I recall a top pop NGC MS66 seated half that was severely overgraded. Now had PCGS crossed that coin one pt lower it would have made the coin much more valuable and it still would have been a top pop and finest known. In essence the coin was really just an average to low end 64 that had got a massive bump up in grade coming out of a major name auction in the 1990's. The coin was later downgraded 1 pt by NGC but realized a so-so MS64 price at it's next auction in the 65 holder. A PCGS 65 would have realized 3X or more that price. So there's one example where a 1 pt downgrade would have realized a higher price.....for an honestly graded coin. But since the coin was not all-there, the odds of PCGS crossing that coin 1 pt down would have been next to NIL.
roadrunner
this one looks better than the dot
Lets see, a couple of decent 1909 VDB MPL Cents graded by PCGS as PR64RB have sold for over $40,000. The coins had no significant toning.
Then there was a "nicely toned" 1909 VDB graded by PCGS as PR66RB when the population was 7/0. This coin was sold by a dealer "who knows" this series for over 100K?? The facts are, in many instances spectacular toned MPL cents in PCGS holders are bringing more money than there red counter parts.
PCGS Set Registy participants who love toned BN and RB coins like to compete with each other to so see who can get the highest weighted set without a "RED" coin in their set. I have asked PCGS to break the R/B and BN's into there own category and they said let us think about it. PCGS Set Registry competitors need there coins in PCGS holders because they won't allow "NGC" coins to compete. So what if the most stunning toned 1909VDB MPL cent got into a PCGS PR67RB holder for starters? it would be a pop 1/0 and could play in the Registry set game
Recently a 1916 PCGS PR67RB 1/0 pop sold for very strong money, which I will not disclose out of respect for my customers privacy.
BW
<< <i>Recently a 1916 PCGS PR67RB 1/0 pop sold for very strong money, which I will not disclose out of respect for my customers privacy. >>
And what an amazing coin that one is!
Whether this particular coin is one of the above, I leave to those with better first hand knowledge. All I really dispute is the blanket statement that dropping an NGC coin one grade to put it in a PCGS holder is 'crossing' the coin. It is not except in very limited circumstances.
The Knoxville 1860 dollar graded by NGC as MS67 and the finest known by 2 points. I felt the quality more acurately reflected MS66. I purchased the coin for $115k in auction and dropped it a point at PCGS. I figured it at $100k after the drop - even tho it was still the finest known.
The MS65 1857 in my seated dollar set went unsold for some time in an NGC 66 holder. The strike just didn't support the grade. Eventually, I approached the dealer and said that I could see the coin in a PCGS 65 holder and would pay that amount for it - which still gave him quite a profit as he had upgraded it from a rattler 64. I bought it and dropped the grade and didn't lose a cent. So everyone was happy in the end.
A few examples of coins that I have refused to drop in grade:
The Eliasberg 1885 trade dollar. Graded PF66 by NGC and I was repeated told that PCGS would 65 CAM the coin. I just disagreed with the 65 grade so I kept it as it was. Although the value of the coin may not have been affected, the stigma of being one of the very few ultra rarities to actually go DOWN a grade [hahaha] was certainly there.
A beautiful 1870-CC seated dollar that was graded MS64 by NGC. I was told that PCGS would 63 the coin, but I figured that amounted to a 50% loss in value as the price I paid was significantly higher than what a 63 was worth. In the end, I just sold it off as I wasn't going to take a $60k hit on the coin.
<< <i>A few examples of coins that I have dropped in grade:
The Knoxville 1860 dollar graded by NGC as MS67 and the finest known by 2 points. I felt the quality more acurately reflected MS66. I purchased the coin for $115k in auction and dropped it a point at PCGS. I figured it at $100k after the drop - even tho it was still the finest known.
The MS65 1857 in my seated dollar set went unsold for some time in an NGC 66 holder. The strike just didn't support the grade. Eventually, I approached the dealer and said that I could see the coin in a PCGS 65 holder and would pay that amount for it - which still gave him quite a profit as he had upgraded it from a rattler 64. I bought it and dropped the grade and didn't lose a cent. So everyone was happy in the end.
A few examples of coins that I have refused to drop in grade:
The Eliasberg 1885 trade dollar. Graded PF66 by NGC and I was repeated told that PCGS would 65 CAM the coin. I just disagreed with the 65 grade so I kept it as it was. Although the value of the coin may not have been affected, the stigma of being one of the very few ultra rarities to actually go DOWN a grade [hahaha] was certainly there.
A beautiful 1870-CC seated dollar that was graded MS64 by NGC. I was told that PCGS would 63 the coin, but I figured that amounted to a 50% loss in value as the price I paid was significantly higher than what a 63 was worth. In the end, I just sold it off as I wasn't going to take a $60k hit on the coin. >>
The one coin I have refused to accept a downgrade to cross is my avatar. It is currently in an NGC 64 PL slab. It has sold for strong PCGS 64 money twice in the last 6 or 7 years. I love the coin and perhaps naively expect that PCGS will someday like it as much as I (and NGC apparently) do(es).
Who is John Galt?
Wondercoin
Reguardless of wether the coin is downgraded by pcgs it will probably always be known as the NGC pf68 RB * mpl.
pcgs can cross and even upgrade it to a 69 now, since they do not gaurantee copper anymore.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>I have to say, if there's a 67RD for the date, I would never have lowered the coin unless it was clearly overgraded which in this case it's not. You just don't take the finest known and put it behind another. >>
I beg to differ with you because I have seen the majority of all the PCGS PR67RB MPL Cents graded in the series(picture to follow) and this coin is easliy a grade point above them all.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have to say, if there's a 67RD for the date, I would never have lowered the coin unless it was clearly overgraded which in this case it's not. You just don't take the finest known and put it behind another. >>
I beg to differ with you because I have seen the majority of all the PCGS PR67RB MPL Cents graded in the series(picture to follow) and this coin is easliy a grade point above them all. >>
It would appear you missed TDN's point. He mentioned 67RD not 67RB, the point being if this coin re-graded PCGS PR67RB, it would not be considered the finest as compared to a PR67RD. If this coin easily grades a point better, then PCGS will call it a PR68RB and most of the comments in this thread are moot.
Thank you for making my point for me so succinctly.
[Point being that if you agree with the grade on the insert that you never should have agreed to downgrade the coin]
<< <i>I beg to differ with you because I have seen the majority of all the PCGS PR67RB MPL Cents graded in the series(picture to follow) and this coin is easliy a grade point above them all.
Thank you for making my point for me so succinctly.
Bruce,
Respectfully, I should have said "in my opinion" and you are entitled to yours. I specialize in this series and have seen a number of nice MATTES and happen to think this is the best out there. "Hi Stewart"
,I would also like to say that 2 of the top 4 ranked "RED" PCGS registry owners have said that this coin could be the most beautiful VDB in existance and the other told me it was the most beautiful MATTE proof in existance, all dates and grades included.
Brian
I do not like the politics involved in downgrading a coin that is 'clearly a grade finer' than the other coins in its grade level - and I'm being verbal about it. Grading should be about accuracy, not about registry games and politics.
<< <i>I beg to differ with you because I have seen the majority of all the PCGS PR67RB MPL Cents graded in the series(picture to follow) and this coin is easliy a grade point above them all.
Thank you for making my point for me so succinctly.
[Point being that if you agree with the grade on the insert that you never should have agreed to downgrade the coin] >>
Once again we have different opinions on this subject. To me and the new owner of this coin it is more valuable in this holder than the NGC holder. It can also be included in the PCGS Set Registry which is very important to the new owner. I guess I will have to round up 5 or 6 of the other PCGS PR67RB's out there and put them in front of David along with this coin. Darn, I wish they still had presidential review.
<< <i>I believe the coin to be totally awesome - you may be misinterpreting my statements.
I do not like the politics involved in downgrading a coin that is 'clearly a grade finer' than the other coins in its grade level - and I'm being verbal about it. Grading should be about accuracy, not about registry games and politics. >>
Now we are in agreement!
But what if the coin had never been upgraded in the first place to NGC PF68? Would the coin still be worth the same money today knowing it's only grading events since coming out of Story Jenks was 67RB?
roadrunner
<< <i>To me and the new owner of this coin it is more valuable in this holder than the NGC holder...
But what if the coin had never been upgraded in the first place to NGC PF68? Would the coin still be worth the same money today knowing it's only grading events since coming out of Story Jenks was 67RB?
roadrunner >>
This 1909 VDB MPL cent is the finest R/B Matte proof in existance, imo and many others. Since one of the nicer PR66RB's (pop 7/0) have sold a bit north of $100k that says quite alot. I have sold half of the PCGS PR67RB MPL population and none of them come close to this coin. The coin is undergraded as PR67RB POP 1/0 and imo, definately worth money north of 200K.
<< <i>
<< <i>To me and the new owner of this coin it is more valuable in this holder than the NGC holder...
But what if the coin had never been upgraded in the first place to NGC PF68? Would the coin still be worth the same money today knowing it's only grading events since coming out of Story Jenks was 67RB?
roadrunner >>
This 1909 VDB MPL cent is the finest R/B Matte proof in existance, imo and many others. Since one of the nicer PR66RB's (pop 7/0) have sold a bit north of $100k that says quite alot. I have sold half of the PCGS PR67RB MPL population and none of them come close to this coin. The coin is undergraded as PR67RB POP 1/0 and imo, definately worth money north of 200K. >>
If I owned a coin that NGC and CAC both thought deserved a PR68RB and felt that in a PCGS PR67 holder "The coin is undergraded as PR67RB..." I would leave it in its PR68RB holder. And that would not change, due to registry set participation. Still, I firmly believe in "to each his ow"n with respect to collecting.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
$1.01
7/1 now.
While I agree with what you say, there's no way I would pay an extra $100k for a single point [ie: going from a PQ66 to a PQ67]. Basically, you're relying on the inference that the coin is still a 68 to justify its value.
Seems like somewhat circular logic to me.