Thanks for the "guido" definition fishteeth. New one on me. I had more ethnic thoughts and am happy to find that I was again wrong.
As for the reverse being 'special', I guess that I am just not that informed yet. I don't see it. I don't see the doubling either. While it may be some sort of doubling that I am unfamiliar with, it looks to me to be more like re-engraving to sharpen worn device drop offs. (Tooling of the die).
Ah, I see what you guys are talking about, but it seems to be a rather futile exercise in semantics to me. I would maintain that "doubled die" is a matter of definition. To me, a doubled die is caused by slippage between die and master die during die creation.
In the case of this 1820 reverse, the 'doubling' that is perceived was hand engraved in the die, but I guess that you could technically call it a doubled die, but I personally prefer not to (yet).
Like I said, I am still learning, and have only a limited vocabulary and subsequently, a limited understanding of coin types that are new to me.
Thanks for the info on this, and I will continue to think about and learn from it.
Thanks Bully, but I know what a hub is. (I did get confused when contemplating a master die and a working hub though). I can surely see why a master hub would not be necessary to create a large inventory of master dies, just as a master die would not be necessary to create a large inventory of working hubs.
I think that what is confusing me here is the number of dies necessary to produce coinage for a particular year. In this case (1820), only about half a dozen of each obverse and reverse dies were used. If a working hub is capable of producing say, 250 working dies, why then would the main devices change from year to year?
More to the point though, is why, if created by a hub, would not the leaves on all 1820 die varieties be identical? I have focused on the leaves of three different 1820 reverse die varieties, and none seem to be of the same 'hubbing'. Maybe I am looking at coins that have been deformed via PMD or die wear?
Let me just add a thanks to Goldbully for not only the awesome coins/pics he has added to this thread, but also the energy and effort to keep this thread active and growing. Thanks Goldbully
Yes, I do see what you are referring to on the talons as well as the leaves.
Guys, I really hope that we can continue to friends even if I don't buy the doubling thing, because I really don't buy it (yet).
Had you just told me this without any pictures, I would have believed it, but the pictures tell me a different story. That doubling was caused by an engraver's tool, not a hub (in my opinion).
Please let this doubling thing slide until I can get one of these things in my hand, at which time I will either concede to doubling or get really stubborn about it all.
<< <i>Let me just add a thanks to Goldbully for not only the awesome coins/pics he has added to this thread, but also the energy and effort to keep this thread active and growing. Thanks Goldbully >>
JRocco, I really appreciate all the amazing contributions from so many forum members. Thank you.
Ok, might as well post another lady.......
O-111a R-1 MS64 Gotta love those curl base 2's!!!!!
This coin shows lots of Thick Mint frost in hand!!!!
<< <i>Yes, I do see what you are referring to on the talons as well as the leaves.
Guys, I really hope that we can continue to friends even if I don't buy the doubling thing, because I really don't buy it (yet).
Had you just told me this without any pictures, I would have believed it, but the pictures tell me a different story. That doubling was caused by an engraver's tool, not a hub (in my opinion).
Please let this doubling thing slide until I can get one of these things in my hand, at which time I will either concede to doubling or get really stubborn about it all. >>
Hey Lewy, Not to derail this awesome thread by Goldbully....which I won't let happen.... Let me explain for a sec.
The doubled CBH above shows Class IV or Offset hub doubling. Imagine holding a CBH and pressing it down into a ball of clay leaving an impression. Now lift the CBH and move it....without turning it...a little to the left and pressing it back down on top of the first impression. When you lift the coin you will see an example of Offset hub doubling. Everything is doubled in the same direction. Now take another CBH and press it into a different ball of clay to form an impression. Now lift this CBH and turn it clockwise or counter-clockwise a little and now press it right on top of the first impression....not off to the side but right on top. Now what you will have is classic Rotated hub doubling or Class I doubling as see on the famous 1955 DDO.
There are, I believe 8 different classes of doubled dies - all caused by different situations. Gosh I LOVE this stuff.
Alright back to the thread... let me find another coin Goldbully.
Okay, my head is starting to swim now. I just looked at 7 or 8 different 1828s, and I saw what I believe to be at least three different noses. I am really not too sure about 'anything' at all now. I had better drop out for a while and try to make sense of all of this. I thought for a minute that I heard Rod Serling talking about me.
Green mold or not, that is one spectacular coin Bully.
[RIPPP? Seemed like a fortune at the time (2004). I carried it for about a week in my wallet (in it's 2x2), I was so proud of the coin. It will be around long after the seated dollars and liberty nickels.
Now for the rip... it was also a ~$70 coin, ebay this time. Unfortunately I now longer own this one, she's onto a new owner, who was a perfect fit for her. Can you tell why this one is so special?] >>
She looks like an O-121, but I have a feeling that I am missing something else that sweetened the deal.
I'd really like to know where you guys find all of these things. I keep searching through old dresser drawers and jewelry boxes belonging to other people's great grandmothers, I sift through every jar and box that I can find on eBay that is filled with old unresearched coins, I look through the back corners of bank vaults that nobody has opened for over 150 years, but I still come up empty handed. What am I doing wrong?
Three gorgeous specimens from the Stack's Eliasberg & Krause Collections for your viewing pleasure on a Saturday night! Hey, I can dream can't I??
1829 O-108. Proof-64 (PCGS) current bid: $20,000
Frosted champagne gold central motifs sit serenely among deep mirror fields. Deep neon blue, violet, gold, and crimson gather at the rims. A pleasing Proof of the date, undoubtedly rare and equally desirable. Small patches of frosty raised die lines are noted at Liberty's bust and the dentils nearby. Stephen J. Herrman's reference, Bust Half Dollar Prices Realized, lists one solitary Proof from this die pair, the present coin. Choice for the grade. As noted in the Norweb Collection catalogue, "Proofs of this variety are not specifically reported by Breen, who does, however, list several examples of unknown die varieties. The present piece is may be unique in Proof preservation. At the very least it is exceedingly rare." Seemingly the same comments ring true 22 years later, and we are virtually certain that this O-108 Proof is unique in the proof format. Curiously the Philadelphia mint struck at least 5 proof half dollars this yearfrom five different die pairings as seen in 1834 and 1835 as well where initial strikings from dies were sometimes made in the proof format. Most years only saw a single die pair or perhaps two pairings used to produce proofs. The overall quality of this piece is extraordinary, the second finest overall for the date in proof, behind only the Pittman coin as PR-66 (NGC). A foremost opportunity for the specialist.
1829 O-111. Rarity-2 as a variety. Specimen Striking. SP-63 (NGC) current bid: $22,000
Believed to be Unique as a specimen of this die pairing. Incredible brilliant white surfaces greet the numismatist at first glance. The fields show icy smooth reflective surfaces created by carefully polishing the dies. Furthermore, the devices are boldly frosted, a process done where an acid or something similar is poured onto the die surface, then removed after the surface attains a fine roughness, then the highest part of the, the fields, are polished smooth. On this particular coin the die polishing was not completed and field areas show the textured frostiness of the devices, notably under Liberty's chin, surrounding her hair ribbon and on the reverse below the eagle's head to his wing, other areas less so. Perhaps this hasty die preparation kept this one from being determined a full proof, although it carries its own credentials and is clearly a special striking when compared with a run of the mill mint state example from these dies. Examination finds moderate hairlines from a past gentle wiping and when closely examined a hint of golden toning has started to form. On this variety, the 9 is repunched, Liberty's mouth is open and on the reverse the A's are filled at the top in AMERICA. While technically finer examples exist from these dies, none can boast the seductive specimen qualities seen here, and this pedigree is well worth noting too. A stunning example of mint craftsmanship of the period and worthy of any connoisseur's cabinet of rarities.
From the George H. Earle Collection, Henry Chapman, June, 1912, Lot 2936; J.M. Clapp; John H. Clapp; Clapp Estate (privately via Stack's 1942); Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr.; our auction of the Eliasberg Collection, April 1997, Lot 1852; Westmoreland Collection of Early Bust Halves, Heritage, January, 2008, Lot 2872.
Is this the first reeded edge posted in this thread? I guess numismatic purists stop at 1836. I believe this one is too beautiful not to post.
1837 MS-66 (PCGS) current bid: $12,000
An exceptional coin that shows rich golden lustre on both sides and a solid strike. The surfaces are what set this coin apart from, as so few retain the mint bloom and freshness seen here, combined with a virtual absence of handling marks. Study the open fields and notice how few bagmarks or hairlines are present, these early Reeded Edge halves are virtually unknown so well preserved. Technically this is a very short-lived type coin minted only in late 1836 to 1837, with "50 CENTS" below the eagle, this was changed to "HALF DOL." in 1838, creating yet another separate and distinct type coin.
Comments
Wait a minute....am I seeing "double" on those olive leaves?
As for the reverse being 'special', I guess that I am just not that informed yet. I don't see it. I don't see the doubling either. While it may be some sort of doubling that I am unfamiliar with, it looks to me to be more like re-engraving to sharpen worn device drop offs. (Tooling of the die).
on leaves and eagle
In the case of this 1820 reverse, the 'doubling' that is perceived was hand engraved in the die, but I guess that you could technically call it a doubled die, but I personally prefer not to (yet).
Like I said, I am still learning, and have only a limited vocabulary and subsequently, a limited understanding of coin types that are new to me.
Thanks for the info on this, and I will continue to think about and learn from it.
The leaves, eagle and ribbon are all on the on the hub
<< <i>Hmmmm, I really hate to keep stating that I am new, but for some reason I do feel compelled to. About the hub....what hub? >>
See modern day die hub here!!
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
I think that what is confusing me here is the number of dies necessary to produce coinage for a particular year. In this case (1820), only about half a dozen of each obverse and reverse dies were used. If a working hub is capable of producing say, 250 working dies, why then would the main devices change from year to year?
More to the point though, is why, if created by a hub, would not the leaves on all 1820 die varieties be identical? I have focused on the leaves of three different 1820 reverse die varieties, and none seem to be of the same 'hubbing'. Maybe I am looking at coins that have been deformed via PMD or die wear?
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
What no comment on her?
Nice new avatar....you are sooo cute!!!
edited to add: Love your image. Did you take the photo???
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
Thanks Goldbully
Guys, I really hope that we can continue to friends even if I don't buy the doubling thing, because I really don't buy it (yet).
Had you just told me this without any pictures, I would have believed it, but the pictures tell me a different story. That doubling was caused by an engraver's tool, not a hub (in my opinion).
Please let this doubling thing slide until I can get one of these things in my hand, at which time I will either concede to doubling or get really stubborn about it all.
<< <i>Let me just add a thanks to Goldbully for not only the awesome coins/pics he has added to this thread, but also the energy and effort to keep this thread active and growing.
Thanks Goldbully
JRocco, I really appreciate all the amazing contributions from so many forum members.
Thank you.
Ok, might as well post another lady.......
O-111a R-1 MS64 Gotta love those curl base 2's!!!!!
This coin shows lots of Thick Mint frost in hand!!!!
<< <i>" Thick mint frost " ? When you say 'mint', are you referring to a greenish hue? The 'thick' part causes me to suspect mold after 181 years. >>
Let's call it 'mold luster' in those fields!!
I'll accept that kind of mold any day of the week!
edited to add: Thanks for the shout out!!!!
<< <i>Yes, I do see what you are referring to on the talons as well as the leaves.
Guys, I really hope that we can continue to friends even if I don't buy the doubling thing, because I really don't buy it (yet).
Had you just told me this without any pictures, I would have believed it, but the pictures tell me a different story. That doubling was caused by an engraver's tool, not a hub (in my opinion).
Please let this doubling thing slide until I can get one of these things in my hand, at which time I will either concede to doubling or get really stubborn about it all. >>
Hey Lewy,
Not to derail this awesome thread by Goldbully....which I won't let happen....
Let me explain for a sec.
The doubled CBH above shows Class IV or Offset hub doubling.
Imagine holding a CBH and pressing it down into a ball of clay leaving an impression.
Now lift the CBH and move it....without turning it...a little to the left and pressing it back down on top
of the first impression. When you lift the coin you will see an example of Offset hub doubling.
Everything is doubled in the same direction.
Now take another CBH and press it into a different ball of clay to form an impression.
Now lift this CBH and turn it clockwise or counter-clockwise a little and now press it right on top of
the first impression....not off to the side but right on top. Now what you will have is classic Rotated hub doubling or Class I
doubling as see on the famous 1955 DDO.
There are, I believe 8 different classes of doubled dies - all caused by different situations.
Gosh I LOVE this stuff.
Alright back to the thread...
let me find another coin Goldbully.
Green mold or not, that is one spectacular coin Bully.
Keep posting Lewy
It's still one of my favorite CBHs even though it doesn't fit in grade wise with rest of my set....
Now for the rip... it was also a ~$70 coin, ebay this time. Unfortunately I now longer own this one, she's onto a new owner, who was a perfect fit for her. Can you tell why this one is so special?] >>
She looks like an O-121, but I have a feeling that I am missing something else that sweetened the deal.
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
<< <i>
Love that 1814/3 Maibockaddict
Here's a 1813 50/UNI.....
<< <i>
Love that 1814/3 Maibockaddict
>>
Thanks, Dave.
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
Here are a couple of 23 O-106a transitional coins
The 3 has been modified to strengthen it.
I'm running out of CBH, but here's a picture of Goldbully and myself. (I'm the one on the lower left with the big smile).
Here's a 1819/8 Small 9
Hey, I can dream can't I??
1829 O-108. Proof-64 (PCGS)
current bid: $20,000
Frosted champagne gold central motifs sit serenely among deep mirror fields. Deep neon blue, violet, gold, and crimson gather at the rims. A pleasing Proof of the date, undoubtedly rare and equally desirable. Small patches of frosty raised die lines are noted at Liberty's bust and the dentils nearby. Stephen J. Herrman's reference, Bust Half Dollar Prices Realized, lists one solitary Proof from this die pair, the present coin. Choice for the grade. As noted in the Norweb Collection catalogue, "Proofs of this variety are not specifically reported by Breen, who does, however, list several examples of unknown die varieties. The present piece is may be unique in Proof preservation. At the very least it is exceedingly rare." Seemingly the same comments ring true 22 years later, and we are virtually certain that this O-108 Proof is unique in the proof format. Curiously the Philadelphia mint struck at least 5 proof half dollars this yearfrom five different die pairings as seen in 1834 and 1835 as well where initial strikings from dies were sometimes made in the proof format. Most years only saw a single die pair or perhaps two pairings used to produce proofs. The overall quality of this piece is extraordinary, the second finest overall for the date in proof, behind only the Pittman coin as PR-66 (NGC). A foremost opportunity for the specialist.
PCGS Population: 1; none finer.
Link 1
....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
1829 O-111. Rarity-2 as a variety. Specimen Striking. SP-63 (NGC)
current bid: $22,000
Believed to be Unique as a specimen of this die pairing. Incredible brilliant white surfaces greet the numismatist at first glance. The fields show icy smooth reflective surfaces created by carefully polishing the dies. Furthermore, the devices are boldly frosted, a process done where an acid or something similar is poured onto the die surface, then removed after the surface attains a fine roughness, then the highest part of the, the fields, are polished smooth. On this particular coin the die polishing was not completed and field areas show the textured frostiness of the devices, notably under Liberty's chin, surrounding her hair ribbon and on the reverse below the eagle's head to his wing, other areas less so. Perhaps this hasty die preparation kept this one from being determined a full proof, although it carries its own credentials and is clearly a special striking when compared with a run of the mill mint state example from these dies. Examination finds moderate hairlines from a past gentle wiping and when closely examined a hint of golden toning has started to form. On this variety, the 9 is repunched, Liberty's mouth is open and on the reverse the A's are filled at the top in AMERICA. While technically finer examples exist from these dies, none can boast the seductive specimen qualities seen here, and this pedigree is well worth noting too. A stunning example of mint craftsmanship of the period and worthy of any connoisseur's cabinet of rarities.
From the George H. Earle Collection, Henry Chapman, June, 1912, Lot 2936; J.M. Clapp; John H. Clapp; Clapp Estate (privately via Stack's 1942); Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr.; our auction of the Eliasberg Collection, April 1997, Lot 1852; Westmoreland Collection of Early Bust Halves, Heritage, January, 2008, Lot 2872.
Link 2
....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Is this the first reeded edge posted in this thread? I guess numismatic purists stop at 1836. I believe this one is too beautiful not to post.
1837 MS-66 (PCGS)
current bid: $12,000
An exceptional coin that shows rich golden lustre on both sides and a solid strike. The surfaces are what set this coin apart from, as so few retain the mint bloom and freshness seen here, combined with a virtual absence of handling marks. Study the open fields and notice how few bagmarks or hairlines are present, these early Reeded Edge halves are virtually unknown so well preserved. Technically this is a very short-lived type coin minted only in late 1836 to 1837, with "50 CENTS" below the eagle, this was changed to "HALF DOL." in 1838, creating yet another separate and distinct type coin.
PCGS Population: 6; 2 (MS-67 finest).
Link 3
Hey Lewy, are your eyes still in your head??
Did you enjoy that mint bloom?
Here is a real coin not one made in heaven...
I don't think I've shown this before, a modest AU50, sq base 2, O.110 R4.
Lance.
I see your 1827, and.....I'll raise you another 1827
O-113 R-3
Bought raw from Stack's as AU55......slabbed AU55 with PCGS.
300????????????????????????