The false legend of Joe Namath?

RonBurgundy

Almost 50 more career interceptions than TD's. Led the league in INT's 4 times, with a couple of very bad years (4 td's, 16 int's, for example.). All time QB record of 62-63.

Remind me why he is in the HOF?

OAKESY25

seriously.. he wasn't good..
most overhyped player ever,

1 prediction made him a legend... what was he supposed to say??
I think we will play mediocre and lose the game with a fumble in the 4th quarter?

of course he said they were going to win

itzagoner

Suzy Kolber.

goraiders

Its a shame a guy Like Stabler is not in,namath is.What about a 2 time superbowl
winner not being in? Plunkett,

2dueces

He put the AFL on the map and made the leagues join.
If you never saw him play, you don't know what you missed.
2 gimpy knees and the quickest release in history.
Numbers mean nothing when it comes to greatness.

jeffcbay

Suzy Kolber

drewsef

<< <i>He put the AFL on the map and made the leagues join.
If you never saw him play, you don't know what you missed.
2 gimpy knees and the quickest release in history.
Numbers mean nothing when it comes to greatness. >>



Exactly, all of the amateur stat readers will never get it. If you know the history of football and truly understand the impact Joe Namath had, you would understand how foolish some of the comments made are by some posters.

jay0791

I agree with 2dueces.
I saw namath play....crunch all the numbers you want he carried a whole league and changes the way the afl would be looked upon forever.
Namath has an absolute gun......only a few I have ever seen can match it.

ymarea

<< <i>He put the AFL on the map and made the leagues join.
If you never saw him play, you don't know what you missed.
2 gimpy knees and the quickest release in history.
Numbers mean nothing when it comes to greatness. >>



YOU...are correct, sir!

RonBurgundy

Hey Drew, get over yourself. I asked a legitimate question, there's a way to answer it without being a baby arm. Judging from the posts, it appears as if there is some room for disagreement on the point. I never saw him play and wanted to know what, besides 1968, warrants him in the HOF discussion.

If you need some books on civility, LMK, I can recommend a few.

vladguerrero

i would tend to agree with him being overrated.

not saying this guy doesn't belong in the baseball Hall (he does), but maybe slightly overrated...

324W-292L = .526 or a career season avg. of 14W-13L

Dboneesq

I have to agree with 2deuces as well. The man used to have his knees drained at HALFTIME just so he could finish the game. He had four knee operations back when many guys retired after having one knee surgery. He helped put the AFL on the map ... and was a major influence in legitimizing the AFL, which led to the merger of the two leagues. In addition, he was a 4x AFL All Star, Rookie of the Year, MVP and SuperBowl champion.

TJMAC

I think Namath is one of those iconic figures who the stars aligned for. Perfect team, perfect city, perfect moment and a guy with the charisma to bring it all together. No doubting his talent and charm. Certainly not one of the best players. I think he is similar to Mantle in some ways with the exception that Mantle did post better numbers and won more often. However, both have a similar charm to them.

FavreFan1971

I know stats don't say everything. There are many players that would be on the "Why in the heck are you in the HOF" list

Namath is in my top 5.

My top 8 are in no particular order.

Namath
Emmitt Thomas
Joe DeLamielleure
John Stallworth
Lynn Swann
Fred Dean
Charlie Joiner
Paul Hornung

RonBurgundy

Doug -


Thanks for the substantive response.

OAKESY25

ahem.. Roger Maris

= icon - not in
should be

( I know it is a different sport BTW )

but it is the same argument, it is the hall of fame
Joe flat out doesn't have the stats to be there

but I don't mind him being there because of his iconic status
he is a "hall of Fame" persona, in someways bigger then the game.

but if you base on stats alone.. there are much more deserving players

UlyssesExtravaganza

I never saw him play but I saw Full Color Football last night, which was very focused on him and it made an impression on me. He seemed to throw a nice pass. Was one of the first to throw for 4,000 yards. Was one of the biggest icons in the history of pro football. I sometimes wince when I look at the old numbers and all the picks the old-timers threw but I think it's hard to evaluate QBs from 30+ years back by looking at TDs and INTs. The ratios have gotten better over time on average and most old school QBs had not so impressive TD-INT#s in that sense. I don't think it means all the modern QBs are better. Stats can be tricky. Mark Bulger has one of the higher all time passer ratings but it's hard to put him real high on the all-time QBs list.

Pinkcatfish

Namath definitely belongs in : Keep in mind Shea Stadium was a Wind Tunnel and Namath didn't exactly "dink and dunk" the ball down the field like half of today's QB's did and the DB could maul a receiver down the field.

I do agree that Stabler and probably Plunkett shoud be in as well

scashaggy

I think it's the whole persona of Namath, he was a big personality.

I think that if Muhammad Ali wasn't this brash loud-mouth, he would be looked back at as just another boxer.

NickM

For those praising Namath, explain why he was any better than Daryle Lamonica.

FavreFan - I agree with many of your selections, but Joe DeLamiellure? 6 time 1st team All-Pro, 2 more time 2nd team All-Pro, 1970s NFL Team of the Decade 1st team (along with Larry Little, 2nd team was John Hannah and Gene Upshaw - oddly enough, by the time the 75th Anniversary Team was selected, Hannah and Upshaw had leapfrogged Joe D. to make the team).

Nick

richtree

<< <i>He put the AFL on the map and made the leagues join.
If you never saw him play, you don't know what you missed.
2 gimpy knees and the quickest release in history.
Numbers mean nothing when it comes to greatness. >>




Not only did he do all this. He did it in New York where it is tougher to succeed.

Not only was it a great superbowl upset, but before that some people said he was going against the greatest defense of all time.

Numbers don't tell it all.

baseballfan

1st super bowl win for old AFL

thats about it and i'm a jets fan

Dboneesq

<< <i>Doug -
Thanks for the substantive response. >>



Ron ... you are welcome. I agree that you could argue against him if it was based solely upon wins and losses. But like I said, he really did a lot for the integration of the two leagues and it's amazing that he was able to take the pounding that he did and stay in the game considering how bad his knees were.

I admit that I am a bit biased, as I grew up down the block from Hofstra University, which is where the JETS practiced when Namath played for them. EVERY DAY in the summer I would walk there with my friends and sit right on the grass next to the field where they practiced. You would not believe the conditions that they practiced on ... it was just a wide open grassy area ... almost like a big back yard. The players talked to you while they were practicing. They also were very generous with autographs. I had a spiral notebook that I would get signed every friggin day. I had some of the rookies twenty times! LOL I also had Namath quite a few times. Too bad that notebook is long gone.

Bigjohn69

because he was on the Brady bunch one time and when you have the "brady" name associated with anything you get in,,, ,,,bj

Dboneesq

I'd let him in for this commercial alone! LOL

markj111

<< <i>For those praising Namath, explain why he was any better than Daryle Lamonica.


Here's what I know about Lamonica. He would start the game, the Raiders would be losing, and Stabler would come in to win the game. I am not qualified to judge who should or should not be in the football HOF; I do not even know what the criteria are. I do know that Namath is one of the most famous football players of all time. Not that it's relevant, but he was a tremendous athlete before he hurt his knees.

MAD

As I remember Lamonica to Wells was a good combination, but I also remember Blanda was needed for late game heroics.

drewsef

<< <i>Hey Drew, get over yourself. I asked a legitimate question, there's a way to answer it without being a baby arm. Judging from the posts, it appears as if there is some room for disagreement on the point. I never saw him play and wanted to know what, besides 1968, warrants him in the HOF discussion.

If you need some books on civility, LMK, I can recommend a few. >>



Your still mad over that Burgundy? Really dude, pathetic. I answered the question and your the only one to get all upset like it really hurt your feelings, I wasn't even targeting you with my point. This has been discussed several times in the Sports Talk forum(hmmmm???) and several people like yourself, who apparently don't have a true historical background of the game, bash on Namath for statistics, but have no clue of the impact he made upon the game, and that he was indeed an absolute great on the field also.

I'm sure you do have a whole library on books on civility, how thick is the dust layer?

There's not a single knowledgeable football fan who watched Namath play that I have met that did not agree with what 2deuces said.

RonBurgundy

LOL! Using words like "amateur" and "foolish", and now you're getting all sanctimonious on us?

You're right, though, I shouldn't have gone there with civility. I should have started with literacy. There you go railing on me (and others) for "bashing Namath for statistics", but if you read my post (give it a try, pahdnah, if you can), I cited his actual stats and asked a question. Oh, I must be one of those who has "no clue" (there's that civility thing again).

Anyway, since we're all dunces here, coach, enlighten us. Let's drop the broad generalities which have filled your two posts to date and get down to some substance. Present some substantive, cogent arguments to back up your points. Don't give me the "I saw him play" crap or repeat anything Doug has said. You apparently have the answers. Go.

Pinkcatfish

This thread is only going downhill from here - There are MUCH less deserving individuals in the Hall than Namath so why don't we head in that direction for awhile. I'll start ---- Fred Dean

"Blessed are the peacemakers"

stevek

<< <i>He put the AFL on the map and made the leagues join.
If you never saw him play, you don't know what you missed.
2 gimpy knees and the quickest release in history.
Numbers mean nothing when it comes to greatness. >>



Exactly right which is why Hall of Fame voting based just on stats can be so flawed.

bking

<< <i>Hey Drew, get over yourself. I asked a legitimate question, there's a way to answer it without being a baby arm. Judging from the posts, it appears as if there is some room for disagreement on the point. I never saw him play and wanted to know what, besides 1968, warrants him in the HOF discussion.

If you need some books on civility, LMK, I can recommend a few. >>



"Baby Arm..." = first time I've noticed schtick on here. :-)

drewsef

<< <i>LOL! Using words like "amateur" and "foolish", and now you're getting all sanctimonious on us?

You're right, though, I shouldn't have gone there with civility. I should have started with literacy. There you go railing on me (and others) for "bashing Namath for statistics", but if you read my post (give it a try, pahdnah, if you can), I cited his actual stats and asked a question. Oh, I must be one of those who has "no clue" (there's that civility thing again).

Anyway, since we're all dunces here, coach, enlighten us. Let's drop the broad generalities which have filled your two posts to date and get down to some substance. Present some substantive, cogent arguments to back up your points. Don't give me the "I saw him play" crap or repeat anything Doug has said. You apparently have the answers. Go. >>



If you can't comprehend that football experts and historians as well as those fans who did see Namath play can't make a better informed opinion on a player's true value and greatness than by googling a line of statistics, well, Cochise, I can't help you out.

bking

<< <i>

<< <i>LOL! Using words like "amateur" and "foolish", and now you're getting all sanctimonious on us?

You're right, though, I shouldn't have gone there with civility. I should have started with literacy. There you go railing on me (and others) for "bashing Namath for statistics", but if you read my post (give it a try, pahdnah, if you can), I cited his actual stats and asked a question. Oh, I must be one of those who has "no clue" (there's that civility thing again).

Anyway, since we're all dunces here, coach, enlighten us. Let's drop the broad generalities which have filled your two posts to date and get down to some substance. Present some substantive, cogent arguments to back up your points. Don't give me the "I saw him play" crap or repeat anything Doug has said. You apparently have the answers. Go. >>



If you can't comprehend that football experts and historians as well as those fans who did see Namath play can't make a better informed opinion on a player's true value and greatness than by googling a line of statistics, well, Cochise, I can't help you out. >>



INTs just weren't viewed the same way back then. Nowadays, it's all about protecting the ball and throwing it away. Back then, it wasn't at all uncommon to see multiple DBs with 8 or more picks.

Allen

Have you not heard the legend of the picture on his rookie card? That is enough to get him in.

ArchStanton

Namath is from Beaver Falls in Pennsylvania's Big Beaver Valley. That alone gets him into the Hall.

WinPitcher

Is the the Sports forum? Some people think rules do not apply to them I guess.





Steve

MeteoriteGuy

It was that RC SI cover. Hollywood Joe indeed.

cubfan89

I was talking one time with a guy ho managed a nightclub many moons ago in NYC and had had some interesting tales on Joe. Apparently he banged some of the most gorgous women on the planet, many at the same time. He could walk into a joint, snap his fingers at 4 smoking females and he who walk out with all of them for some good ol fun. I know females are attracted to fame and power and of course money...but what made females go that crazy over Namath?

onebamafan

The "mystique" of the guaranteed victory and he played for the Tide.

WinPitcher

Remind me why he is in the HOF?





umm he was voted in?


Steve

Allen

<< <i>I was talking one time with a guy ho managed a nightclub many moons ago in NYC and had had some interesting tales on Joe. Apparently he banged some of the most gorgous women on the planet, many at the same time. He could walk into a joint, snap his fingers at 4 smoking females and he who walk out with all of them for some good ol fun. I know females are attracted to fame and power and of course money...but what made females go that crazy over Namath? >>



Namath just had that swagger.

shagrotn77

Namath is incredibly overrated and absolutely does not belong in the Hall of Fame. He's one of many HOF'ers whose legend is much better than their reality. Hornung and Swann are right there too.

cubfan89

I got swagger too! He definatly had something else. I wish to god I knew what it was.

shagrotn77

Say what cubfan?

WinPitcher

It was money and fame, the person that asked that question also answered it.


Being the QB for Jets didn't hurt either.


Steve

SidePocket

Stabler should be in AND he was very cool on the triple D barbeque special.

I read Weeb Ewbanks (?) said when Namath was his QB he'd lay under his bed and push it up and down for him to save his knees.

grote15

He is overrated, but deserves to be in the HOF for what he did to legitimize to AFL as a league worthy of merging with the NFL. Don't forget, too, that the passing rules back then were MUCH more favorable to defensive players and Joe Willie still threw for a ton of yards, and was the 1st QB to surpass 4,000 yards passing in a single season, an incredible feat at the time, not to mention the Super Bowl MVP and ROY awards. If not for devestating knee injuries, he'd have been one of the all time greats ever, he was that talented.

1960toppsguy

Namath = Mantle . . . Pretty boys in big city at key positions, for whatever that's worth

PowderedH2O

Quarterbacks then had to deal with rules that allowed defensive backs to brutalize receivers. Ever look back at some of the things Night Train Lane did? Or Jack Tatum? Or Erich Barnes? Or Fred "The Hammer" Williamson? MOST quarterbacks threw more interceptions than TD's. That includes Ken Stabler, whom several have mentioned here. But Stabler is a great example. When Stabler was completing 60% of his passes people talked about what a pinpoint accurate passer he was. But you could take his numbers and put them up today and they wouldn't hold up. Those of you that were too young to see the Snake of the 70's, let me assure you, he would carve up defenses today. To me he reminds me a lot of Drew Brees. Same kind of passer. I only saw Namath during the second half of his career. But I can see that he threw for over 4000 yards in 1967. The next guy in the NFL/AFL to do it was over ten years later with Fouts. And he won a Super Bowl? Not overrated at all...

fkw

Best line .......... "Namath = Mantle"

and both are very overrated! ....... but do deserve HOF IMO