<< <i>Deion Branch has 3 Super Bowl Rings and a Super Bowl MVP so I guess he is first ballot for sure. >>
Like i said. How many have 4?
And last i checked its called the hall of FAME. Not the hall of decent stats over a 20 yr period. >>
Are you a troll or just an idiot? >>
Oh wow 3rd grade stuff.
Since you had to resort to the name calling, i guess that means i won the arguement >>
At least 22 players have four rings including: Terry Bradshaw, Mike Wilson, Franco Harris, Lynn Swann, John Stallworth, Mel Blount, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham, Roicky Bleier, Donnie Shell, Mike Webster, Steve Furness, Joe Montana, Keena Turner, Jesse Sapolu, Eric Wright, Ronnie Lott, Adam Vinitieri, Bill Romanowksi, Charlie Weis, Matt Millen. Of course Dan Rooney, Dick Hoak, Joe Greene, Charles Haley, Chuch Noll, Bill Belichick and Romeo Crennel have five rings. Mike Woicik has six and Neal Dahlen has seven.
Eric Wright was a two time pro bowler with four Super Bowl rings and interceptions in two separate Super Bowls, surely he meets your standards of four rings. Wow you are stupid.
Swann was a very good WR on a team that had tons of talent from top to bottom. He had some big games in the Super Bowl, to his credit, but I wouldn't say he was a sure fire HOFer by any means. Never topped 900 yds receiving, finished with 50 TDs and 5,000 yds receiving. If he had played for any team other than Pittsburgh, he'd had never ben inducted. Even them it took him a bunch of tries to get in..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Haley has five rings. I hate to talk up a Cowboy, but he played college ball just up the road here and he's pals with Gary Clark, so that gets him big points.
As for Broadway Joe...this is one of those Satchmo questions. If you have to ask, you'll probably never know.
According to Pro Football Reference, these are the players that are most comparable to Lynn Swann over the course of his career:
Darrell Jackson, Carl Pickens, Al Toon, Plaxico Burress, Laveranues Coles, John Taylor, John Jefferson, Chris Chambers, Derrick Alexander, Alfred Jenkins
Some good players are on that list, but if you take away the fact that Swann was basically just the beneficiary of landing on arguably the best all time team (really) in football at the start of his career, he is not a HOFer. Of course, we all remember the acrobatic catches in those two Super Bowl wins (X and XIII) but without that team around him, Swann never makes it to the Super Bowl to begin with, so the number of rings he has is a somewhat misleading gauge of whether he deserves to be in the HOF or not.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Deion Branch has 3 Super Bowl Rings and a Super Bowl MVP so I guess he is first ballot for sure. >>
Wow you are stupid. >>
Wow more 3rd grade stuff. Isnt it past your bed time?
Everyone remembers Swann and Stallworth. Apparantly the voters who voted them into the hall of fame do. No one remembers Eric Wright.
Hall of FAME >>
I thought it was all about who has four rings a minute ago? I remember Ken Stabler, Bob Hayes, Jim Marshall, Cris Carter, Derrick Thomas, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theismann, Ken Anderson, Randall Cunningham, Art Monk, Thurman Thomas, etc. That does not help them get in.
The 'you had to see him play' argument absolutely fails here..same with the 'if only his knees would not have gone south'. You know what? They did. Bo jackson and does not deserve to get in either. Most of Namath's advanced passing stats on football reference have him between 95 and 105...100 is average. Swagger or not he was a statistically average qb in comparison to his peers. Let's not over rate one game. Just because there was a perceived talent discrepancy between the AFL and NFL, does not mean there was actually one. In fact, KC and Miami won 3 of the next 5 Superbowls after the Jets did.
The comparison to mantle is weak - mantle had many injury shortened years, but was a superior hitter to his peers when healthy, and still managed to build up HOF numbers.
Looking for rare Randy Moss rookies and autos, as well as '97 PMG Red Football cards for my set.
<< <i>Quarterbacks then had to deal with rules that allowed defensive backs to brutalize receivers. >>
And yet, with all that, Namath still managed to put up worse numbers than his peers. Put it this way - Namath played a full season (all 14 games) 5 times and 13 games 2 others. In those 7 seasons, he led the league in INTs 4 times and was 3rd another. He led the league in TDs once - with 19. Sounds an awful lot like "lots of risk, not a lot of reward", don't it? During Namath's time, the league leaders had pass efficiency ratings in the 95-105 range. Namath's BEST EVER was 74.3. During his career, the league leaders in completion % were around 60-63%. Namath's BEST EVER was 52.5%. It's fun to say that coaches cared less about INTs back then and that guys threw more picks - and that's true. It also ignores that the better QBs in the league still had a lot better TD:INT ratio than Namath did.
Yeah, he had a gun. Yeah, he took chances downfield. Yeah, he might have been an all-time great but for his knees. But the fact is, his stats suck. His W/L record sucks. And his knees DID give out.
Is he a HOFer? I'd say yes but certainly not because of his actual play. He gets in because of influence in bringing the two leagues together. But let's not pretend he's a top 50 QB or anything like that.
I agree with Tabe for the most part, but I would put him in the top 50. If we have an all time draft and 49 Qbs have come off the board and Namath is available, I will take him.
<< <i>According to Pro Football Reference, these are the players that are most comparable to Lynn Swann over the course of his career:
Darrell Jackson, Carl Pickens, Al Toon, Plaxico Burress, Laveranues Coles, John Taylor, John Jefferson, Chris Chambers, Derrick Alexander, Alfred Jenkins
Some good players are on that list, but if you take away the fact that Swann was basically just the beneficiary of landing on arguably the best all time team (really) in football at the start of his career, he is not a HOFer. Of course, we all remember the acrobatic catches in those THREE Super Bowl wins (X and XIII) but without that team around him, Swann never makes it to the Super Bowl to begin with, so the number of rings he has is a somewhat misleading gauge of whether he deserves to be in the HOF or not. >>
Nonsense.
I corrected that for you. He made acrobatic catches in 3 super bowls. Swann played on a great team, and one of the reasons why they were great was because he played on them. Without making those amazing catches in two of those super bowls, the Steelers lose. In 1979, during a monday night game, Howard Cosell said Swann was the best wide reciever in the league.
<< According to Pro Football Reference, these are the players that are most comparable to Lynn Swann over the course of his career:
Darrell Jackson, Carl Pickens, Al Toon, Plaxico Burress, Laveranues Coles, John Taylor, John Jefferson, Chris Chambers, Derrick Alexander, Alfred Jenkins
Some good players are on that list, but if you take away the fact that Swann was basically just the beneficiary of landing on arguably the best all time team (really) in football at the start of his career, he is not a HOFer. Of course, we all remember the acrobatic catches in those THREE Super Bowl wins (X and XIII) but without that team around him, Swann never makes it to the Super Bowl to begin with, so the number of rings he has is a somewhat misleading gauge of whether he deserves to be in the HOF or not. >>
Nonsense.
I corrected that for you. He made acrobatic catches in 3 super bowls. Swann played on a great team, and one of the reasons why they were great was because he played on them. Without making those amazing catches in two of those super bowls, the Steelers lose. In 1979, during a monday night game, Howard Cosell said Swann was the best wide reciever in the league.
It's obvious you're a Steelers fan and like most fans who let their heart guide their perceptions, you are not willing or able to make objective assessments when it comes to evaluating players. Here are the facts: Lynn Swann was the football equivalent of winning the lottery when he had the great fortune of starting his career with a team that was arguably the best team of all time. If he was so great, why do you think it took him so long to get inducted, despite the fact that the Steelers were a dynasty and a very popular Super Bowl team? Look at the career stats of Lynn Swann and you tell me with a straight face that he is one of the best receivers of all time. You can't be that dense, really, can you? Man crush aside, you can't really say that, can you? If you don't believe me, just look at the list of receivers Swann is comparable to on Pro Football Reference.com, but I doubt objectivity is one of the things you strive for based on your ridiculous posts.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Would be like Mark Sanchez winning the Super Bowl with the Jets, and all these posters claiming how Sanchez changed the NFL as a rookie QB who was an underclassman. Then Sanchez goes on to have an average career, but just so happened to play in New York.
People here are either Alabama fans, or were kids who just loved Joe. Joe's numbers don't lie, and people who claimed he had an impact on how the AFL was overlooked totally disrespect all of his teammates who worked their butt off to beat the Colts. Joe didn't win the game by himself.
Also, saying someone played hurt doesn't really matter. It's all about numbers, and his TD to INT #'s are just not HOF numbers. He obviously wasn't hurt enough not to play. Bobby Orr played on hurt knees too, but also put up much greater numbers in the NHL then Joe did in the NFL.
<< <i> << According to Pro Football Reference, these are the players that are most comparable to Lynn Swann over the course of his career:
Darrell Jackson, Carl Pickens, Al Toon, Plaxico Burress, Laveranues Coles, John Taylor, John Jefferson, Chris Chambers, Derrick Alexander, Alfred Jenkins
Some good players are on that list, but if you take away the fact that Swann was basically just the beneficiary of landing on arguably the best all time team (really) in football at the start of his career, he is not a HOFer. Of course, we all remember the acrobatic catches in those THREE Super Bowl wins (X and XIII) but without that team around him, Swann never makes it to the Super Bowl to begin with, so the number of rings he has is a somewhat misleading gauge of whether he deserves to be in the HOF or not. >>
Nonsense.
I corrected that for you. He made acrobatic catches in 3 super bowls. Swann played on a great team, and one of the reasons why they were great was because he played on them. Without making those amazing catches in two of those super bowls, the Steelers lose. In 1979, during a monday night game, Howard Cosell said Swann was the best wide reciever in the league.
It's obvious you're a Steelers fan and like most fans who let their heart guide their perceptions, you are not willing or able to make objective assessments when it comes to evaluating players. Here are the facts: Lynn Swann was the football equivalent of winning the lottery when he had the great fortune of starting his career with a team that was arguably the best team of all time. If he was so great, why do you think it took him so long to get inducted, despite the fact that the Steelers were a dynasty and a very popular Super Bowl team? Look at the career stats of Lynn Swann and you tell me with a straight face that he is one of the best receivers of all time. You can't be that dense, really, can you? Man crush aside, you can't really say that, can you? If you don't believe me, just look at the list of receivers Swann is comparable to on Pro Football Reference.com, but I doubt objectivity is one of the things you strive for based on your ridiculous posts. >>
Its pretty obvious that you're a steelers hater for such ignorant posts. Anyone who saw Swann play appreciates his greatness. Swann was small at 5-11, but was so athletic, he could out-leap his defensive opposition. The Steelers had one of the best offenses in the league. And Swann was one of the main reasons they were so good. He was not only one of the best recievers in the late 70's, but also was a excellent punt returner. As a rookie, he led the NFL IN PUNT RETURN YARDS with 577, which is also the fourth best total in HISTORY. The following year Swann led the NFL in touchdowns and was later selected on the 1970's all-decade team. In post-season games Swann had over 900 yards in recieving. His regular season success combined with his post season excellence makes him a sure hall of famer.
One other thing I'd like to add before this get way off topic. Rules for hitting the quarterback didn't exist back then. They took a beating every play. No skirts on them in the 60's. You wonder why they threw so many interceptions? Look at some of the films. They were getting kiiled and before they would get killed again they would fling it out there. Today there would be a penalty on every play. Quarterbacks don't have to worry as much about getting killed and the comp-pct rate rises. New rules for receivers, (follow the money, more scoring, more fans, more money) allow them to run free down field.
If the technology for knee surgery was what it is today, no telling how good he would have been. Gale Sayers is another. After he blew out that knee he wasn't the same after. Today, Gale Sayers knee injury would be a footnote of maybe the greatest NFL player of all time. We will never know.
Apples and Oranges for stats. Remember his 4000 yards came in 12 games, not 16 like today. Back then they played 6 pre season games. Now owners want 2. I'm not defending his stats, but you cannot compare stats from different eras.
Jack Kemp never threw more TD's than int in any season in his career. But he was one tough SOB and won 2 AFL Championships. No HOFer, but in his day a good QB. Times change, just like the music does. I think Dylan said that, no, I just did.
W.C.Fields "I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
I feel Namath is a little over rated too, however I don't mind him being in the HOF. I saw him play a few times in the early 1970's, but by that time he could hardly move in the pocket. I missed seeing him play in his five AFL years.
He did possess a big arm, was a great down the field passer, was tough in the pocket, and had some really bad knee's. He played in a different era where anything went in the defensive backfield. WR's were always getting mugged. The rules were different then. His stat lines suffered.
Good point on him playing many games at the wind tunnell Shea Stadium. A terrible place to pass the ball.
Namath leading the first AFL team to a Super Bowl win, his off the field persona and swagger, playing in New York, he became the big drawing card player for the league to exploit that helped lead to the AFL-NFL merger. All points that helped get him in the HOF, in my opinion.
Really the thing that bothers me more about Namath, is that he was voted the first team all-time QB in AFL history over Len Dawson. Now that's a travesty.
Namath's Suzi Kolber moment was a classic too.
I think there's a few other deserving QB's from Namath's era that aren't in the HOF yet, but seem to deserve some consideration. From the the 1960's-70's : Hadl, Brodie, and Gabriel. From the 1970's: Ken Anderson and maybe Stabler. ----------------------------------
It's funny in the 1970's the leading receiver in all of Football for receptions, yards, and TD catches is the great Harold Jackson. Nobody ever says he deserves to be in the HOF. Yet Swann landing on the best team of the decade, the Steelers, ends up being a HOF'er and on the all decade team at WR. Even though his stats were not as good. The rings are what matters.
------------------------------------
Most overrated HOF'er is Wayne Milner of the Redskins.
<< <i>One other thing I'd like to add before this get way off topic. Rules for hitting the quarterback didn't exist back then. They took a beating every play. No skirts on them in the 60's. You wonder why they threw so many interceptions? Look at some of the films. They were getting kiiled and before they would get killed again they would fling it out there. Today there would be a penalty on every play. Quarterbacks don't have to worry as much about getting killed and the comp-pct rate rises. New rules for receivers, (follow the money, more scoring, more fans, more money) allow them to run free down field.
If the technology for knee surgery was what it is today, no telling how good he would have been. Gale Sayers is another. After he blew out that knee he wasn't the same after. Today, Gale Sayers knee injury would be a footnote of maybe the greatest NFL player of all time. We will never know.
Apples and Oranges for stats. Remember his 4000 yards came in 12 games, not 16 like today. Back then they played 6 pre season games. Now owners want 2. I'm not defending his stats, but you cannot compare stats from different eras.
Jack Kemp never threw more TD's than int in any season in his career. But he was one tough SOB and won 2 AFL Championships. No HOFer, but in his day a good QB. Times change, just like the music does. I think Dylan said that, no, I just did. >>
All good points, although I think Namath's 4007 yard passing year in '68 came in a 14 game season. Still, it set a new record for pro football besting I think Sonny Jurgensen's mark the year before.
What's amazing to me is Daryle Lamonica's three year run from '67-69 where he had around 90 TD passes in 42 games and the Raiders lost only 4 games over that three year period. Lamonica was the league MVP twice in that time frame, yet nobody seems to remember because the Jet's won Super Bowl 3 and the Chiefs won SB 4.
<< <i>He put the AFL on the map and made the leagues join. If you never saw him play, you don't know what you missed. 2 gimpy knees and the quickest release in history. Numbers mean nothing when it comes to greatness. >>
<< <i>One other thing I'd like to add before this get way off topic. Rules for hitting the quarterback didn't exist back then. They took a beating every play. No skirts on them in the 60's. You wonder why they threw so many interceptions? Look at some of the films. They were getting kiiled and before they would get killed again they would fling it out there. Today there would be a penalty on every play. Quarterbacks don't have to worry as much about getting killed and the comp-pct rate rises. New rules for receivers, (follow the money, more scoring, more fans, more money) allow them to run free down field.
If the technology for knee surgery was what it is today, no telling how good he would have been. Gale Sayers is another. After he blew out that knee he wasn't the same after. Today, Gale Sayers knee injury would be a footnote of maybe the greatest NFL player of all time. We will never know.
Apples and Oranges for stats. Remember his 4000 yards came in 12 games, not 16 like today. Back then they played 6 pre season games. Now owners want 2. I'm not defending his stats, but you cannot compare stats from different eras.
Jack Kemp never threw more TD's than int in any season in his career. But he was one tough SOB and won 2 AFL Championships. No HOFer, but in his day a good QB. Times change, just like the music does. I think Dylan said that, no, I just did. >>
All good points, although I think Namath's 4007 yard passing year in '68 came in a 14 game season. Still, it set a new record for pro football besting I think Sonny Jurgensen's mark the year before.
What's amazing to me is Daryle Lamonica's three year run from '67-69 where he had around 90 TD passes in 42 games and the Raiders lost only 4 games over that three year period. Lamonica was the league MVP twice in that time frame, yet nobody seems to remember because the Jet's won Super Bowl 3 and the Chiefs won SB 4. >>
Best pick up for Bills...Kemp for $100 on waivers. Worst move for the Bills. Trade Lamonica for Flores and Kemp retires that year. WTF were they thinking? LOL
W.C.Fields "I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
All good points, although I think Namath's 4007 yard passing year in '68 came in a 14 game season. Still, it set a new record for pro football besting I think Sonny Jurgensen's mark the year before.
You are correct. I'm still back in the 60's, early 60's, when Jimmy Brown was a monster and 1000 yds in 12 games meant something.
W.C.Fields "I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
For the sake of the Jets topic--and i'm a Chiefs supporter-- i was hoping the Jets would make it to the Superbowl so they could milk a T.V. commercial with Sanchez as "Joe", fur coat and all--predicting a win. Would have been priceless!!
Joe "Flippin" Namath was the KING of Football for a few years: 1967-1970 when many people were really tunning into it, me included.
He had style, he had looks and he had THE GUN. Played in the Big Apple and was the face on an entire league that conqurered the mighty NFL. Ask the AFL players in those days if they think Joe Namath is a HOFer and it would be no contest.
When Namath came out of Alabama before he had taken one pro snap he had a bad knee injury and the thinking was, he would be lucky to have a decent 5 year career before the knee would be rendered unplayable.
So quite frankly, we never even got to see Namath on the football field at FULL TILT. Still in his early Jet years, basically the first 4 or 5, he was an absolute incredible talent!!
The Dude is a HOFer in my book, all day long. Stats don't even come close to telling half the story of Joe Willie Namath and the impact he had on the game during his brief run and sadly at the end "limp" through it.
He was a COMET, the brightest one in the entire sky for a few very key years.
<< <i>Quarterbacks then had to deal with rules that allowed defensive backs to brutalize receivers. >>
And yet, with all that, Namath still managed to put up worse numbers than his peers. Put it this way - Namath played a full season (all 14 games) 5 times and 13 games 2 others. In those 7 seasons, he led the league in INTs 4 times and was 3rd another. He led the league in TDs once - with 19. Sounds an awful lot like "lots of risk, not a lot of reward", don't it? During Namath's time, the league leaders had pass efficiency ratings in the 95-105 range. Namath's BEST EVER was 74.3. During his career, the league leaders in completion % were around 60-63%. Namath's BEST EVER was 52.5%. It's fun to say that coaches cared less about INTs back then and that guys threw more picks - and that's true. It also ignores that the better QBs in the league still had a lot better TD:INT ratio than Namath did.
Yeah, he had a gun. Yeah, he took chances downfield. Yeah, he might have been an all-time great but for his knees. But the fact is, his stats suck. His W/L record sucks. And his knees DID give out.
Is he a HOFer? I'd say yes but certainly not because of his actual play. He gets in because of influence in bringing the two leagues together. But let's not pretend he's a top 50 QB or anything like that.
Tabe >>
Nicely put,I agree.Stabler shoul be in,just say'in
I found this great quote: "Namath was purely the product of hype. In the modern NFL, his mix of high-profile and inferior ability compare to Eli Manning. Broadway Joe was a big personality in a bigger city. Who rode a broad smile, feather boa, a timely quote and an upset victory to far more than his fair share of fame. A barely above average player, a nominative Hall of Famer; Namath's legend stands as one of the greater frauds in the annals of the NFL. All feather, no football."
<< <i>I found this great quote: "Namath was purely the product of hype. In the modern NFL, his mix of high-profile and inferior ability compare to Eli Manning. Broadway Joe was a big personality in a bigger city. Who rode a broad smile, feather boa, a timely quote and an upset victory to far more than his fair share of fame. A barely above average player, a nominative Hall of Famer; Namath's legend stands as one of the greater frauds in the annals of the NFL. All feather, no football."
true dat. >>
You say it's a quote, but you cite no author. Musta been written by someone that Joe was $$^$ his girl friend. Anon.
Besides, if you can't add your own opinon what good are worthless quotes?
W.C.Fields "I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
<< <i> I think there's a few other deserving QB's from Namath's era that aren't in the HOF yet, but seem to deserve some consideration. From the the 1960's-70's : Hadl, Brodie, and Gabriel. From the 1970's: Ken Anderson and maybe Stabler. >>
I would put every one of those guys in. I don't know how this debate turned into a zero sum game between Stabler and Namath.
<< <i>It's funny in the 1970's the leading receiver in all of Football for receptions, yards, and TD catches is the great Harold Jackson. Nobody ever says he deserves to be in the HOF. >>
Actually, I've written that here, generally to ridicule.
Hello All. I live in Canton, about 5 minutes from The Hall. It's funny, a number of autograph collecting buddies and me have had this conversation a # of times. Swann and Namath are the two names that most often come up. Often times, we talk about the most deserving guys that are NOT in the Hall. I agree with you "cardbender" Harold Jackson is at / near the top of the list. Have a coup[le of others as well. Rocke
WANTED:Football Hall of Fame Autograph's;Hugh Ray,Tim Mara,Charles Bidwell,Walt Kiesling,Bill Hewitt,Len Ford,Fritz Pollard,Curly Lambeau,Steve Owen & Joe Carr. FOR SALE : 100's of auto'd HoF 8x10's & dozen's of auto'd HoF cards.
<< <i>Joe "Flippin" Namath was the KING of Football for a few years: 1967-1970 when many people were really tunning into it, me included.
He had style, he had looks and he had THE GUN. Played in the Big Apple and was the face on an entire league that conqurered the mighty NFL. Ask the AFL players in those days if they think Joe Namath is a HOFer and it would be no contest.
When Namath came out of Alabama before he had taken one pro snap he had a bad knee injury and the thinking was, he would be lucky to have a decent 5 year career before the knee would be rendered unplayable.
So quite frankly, we never even got to see Namath on the football field at FULL TILT. Still in his early Jet years, basically the first 4 or 5, he was an absolute incredible talent!!
The Dude is a HOFer in my book, all day long. Stats don't even come close to telling half the story of Joe Willie Namath and the impact he had on the game during his brief run and sadly at the end "limp" through it.
He was a COMET, the brightest one in the entire sky for a few very key years. >>
Sums it up very well.
I guess some here are saying...leadership ability of leading a team to winning a Super Bowl against long odds, having a gun for an arm, determination and desire to win as much as any football player I've ever seen play, and good stats to back it up...I guess this all isn't good enough to be in the Hall because his career stats weren't quite good enough for ya. Probably the same bunch who think Sandy Koufax shouldn't be in the Hall because they focus only on how many games he won versus other Hall of Famers.
<< <i>One other thing I'd like to add before this get way off topic. Rules for hitting the quarterback didn't exist back then. They took a beating every play. No skirts on them in the 60's. You wonder why they threw so many interceptions? Look at some of the films. They were getting kiiled and before they would get killed again they would fling it out there. Today there would be a penalty on every play. Quarterbacks don't have to worry as much about getting killed and the comp-pct rate rises. New rules for receivers, (follow the money, more scoring, more fans, more money) allow them to run free down field. >>
That all sounds great - the rules were looser, the play tougher, blah blah blah. Until you see that Joe performed below the standard set by his peers at the time. So, yeah, comparing him to Tom Brady's numbers isn't fair. But he comes up short being compared to his contemporaries, too. Scroll up to my previous post for more details.
<< <i>Apples and Oranges for stats. Remember his 4000 yards came in 12 games, not 16 like today. Back then they played 6 pre season games. Now owners want 2. I'm not defending his stats, but you cannot compare stats from different eras. >>
Comments
<< <i>I know stats don't say everything. There are many players that would be on the "Why in the heck are you in the HOF" list
John Stallworth
Lynn Swann
>>
Uh, how many wide receivers do you know who have 4 super bowl rings? Swann and Stallworth made big catches in big games and swann is a super bowl mvp.
<< <i>Deion Branch has 3 Super Bowl Rings and a Super Bowl MVP so I guess he is first ballot for sure. >>
Like i said. How many have 4?
And last i checked its called the hall of FAME. Not the hall of decent stats over a 20 yr period.
<< <i>
<< <i>Deion Branch has 3 Super Bowl Rings and a Super Bowl MVP so I guess he is first ballot for sure. >>
Like i said. How many have 4?
And last i checked its called the hall of FAME. Not the hall of decent stats over a 20 yr period. >>
Are you a troll or just an idiot?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Deion Branch has 3 Super Bowl Rings and a Super Bowl MVP so I guess he is first ballot for sure. >>
Like i said. How many have 4?
And last i checked its called the hall of FAME. Not the hall of decent stats over a 20 yr period. >>
Are you a troll or just an idiot? >>
Oh wow 3rd grade stuff.
Since you had to resort to the name calling, i guess that means i won the arguement
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Deion Branch has 3 Super Bowl Rings and a Super Bowl MVP so I guess he is first ballot for sure. >>
Like i said. How many have 4?
And last i checked its called the hall of FAME. Not the hall of decent stats over a 20 yr period. >>
Are you a troll or just an idiot? >>
Oh wow 3rd grade stuff.
Since you had to resort to the name calling, i guess that means i won the arguement
At least 22 players have four rings including:
Terry Bradshaw, Mike Wilson, Franco Harris, Lynn Swann, John Stallworth, Mel Blount, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham, Roicky Bleier, Donnie Shell, Mike Webster, Steve Furness, Joe Montana, Keena Turner, Jesse Sapolu, Eric Wright, Ronnie Lott, Adam Vinitieri, Bill Romanowksi, Charlie Weis, Matt Millen. Of course Dan Rooney, Dick Hoak, Joe Greene, Charles Haley, Chuch Noll, Bill Belichick and Romeo Crennel have five rings. Mike Woicik has six and Neal Dahlen has seven.
Eric Wright was a two time pro bowler with four Super Bowl rings and interceptions in two separate Super Bowls, surely he meets your standards of four rings. Wow you are stupid.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
As for Broadway Joe...this is one of those Satchmo questions. If you have to ask, you'll probably never know.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Deion Branch has 3 Super Bowl Rings and a Super Bowl MVP so I guess he is first ballot for sure. >>
Wow you are stupid. >>
Wow more 3rd grade stuff. Isnt it past your bed time?
Everyone remembers Swann and Stallworth. Apparantly the voters who voted them into the hall of fame do. No one remembers Eric Wright.
Hall of FAME
Darrell Jackson, Carl Pickens, Al Toon, Plaxico Burress, Laveranues Coles, John Taylor, John Jefferson, Chris Chambers, Derrick Alexander, Alfred Jenkins
Some good players are on that list, but if you take away the fact that Swann was basically just the beneficiary of landing on arguably the best all time team (really) in football at the start of his career, he is not a HOFer. Of course, we all remember the acrobatic catches in those two Super Bowl wins (X and XIII) but without that team around him, Swann never makes it to the Super Bowl to begin with, so the number of rings he has is a somewhat misleading gauge of whether he deserves to be in the HOF or not.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>Q]
<< <i>Deion Branch has 3 Super Bowl Rings and a Super Bowl MVP so I guess he is first ballot for sure. >>
Wow you are stupid. >>
Wow more 3rd grade stuff. Isnt it past your bed time?
Everyone remembers Swann and Stallworth. Apparantly the voters who voted them into the hall of fame do. No one remembers Eric Wright.
Hall of FAME >>
I thought it was all about who has four rings a minute ago? I remember Ken Stabler, Bob Hayes, Jim Marshall, Cris Carter, Derrick Thomas, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theismann, Ken Anderson, Randall Cunningham, Art Monk, Thurman Thomas, etc. That does not help them get in.
The comparison to mantle is weak - mantle had many injury shortened years, but was a superior hitter to his peers when healthy, and still managed to build up HOF numbers.
<< <i>Quarterbacks then had to deal with rules that allowed defensive backs to brutalize receivers. >>
And yet, with all that, Namath still managed to put up worse numbers than his peers. Put it this way - Namath played a full season (all 14 games) 5 times and 13 games 2 others. In those 7 seasons, he led the league in INTs 4 times and was 3rd another. He led the league in TDs once - with 19. Sounds an awful lot like "lots of risk, not a lot of reward", don't it? During Namath's time, the league leaders had pass efficiency ratings in the 95-105 range. Namath's BEST EVER was 74.3. During his career, the league leaders in completion % were around 60-63%. Namath's BEST EVER was 52.5%. It's fun to say that coaches cared less about INTs back then and that guys threw more picks - and that's true. It also ignores that the better QBs in the league still had a lot better TD:INT ratio than Namath did.
Yeah, he had a gun. Yeah, he took chances downfield. Yeah, he might have been an all-time great but for his knees. But the fact is, his stats suck. His W/L record sucks. And his knees DID give out.
Is he a HOFer? I'd say yes but certainly not because of his actual play. He gets in because of influence in bringing the two leagues together. But let's not pretend he's a top 50 QB or anything like that.
Tabe
<< <i>According to Pro Football Reference, these are the players that are most comparable to Lynn Swann over the course of his career:
Darrell Jackson, Carl Pickens, Al Toon, Plaxico Burress, Laveranues Coles, John Taylor, John Jefferson, Chris Chambers, Derrick Alexander, Alfred Jenkins
Some good players are on that list, but if you take away the fact that Swann was basically just the beneficiary of landing on arguably the best all time team (really) in football at the start of his career, he is not a HOFer. Of course, we all remember the acrobatic catches in those THREE Super Bowl wins (X and XIII) but without that team around him, Swann never makes it to the Super Bowl to begin with, so the number of rings he has is a somewhat misleading gauge of whether he deserves to be in the HOF or not. >>
Nonsense.
I corrected that for you. He made acrobatic catches in 3 super bowls. Swann played on a great team, and one of the reasons why they were great was because he played on them. Without making those amazing catches in two of those super bowls, the Steelers lose. In 1979, during a monday night game, Howard Cosell said Swann was the best wide reciever in the league.
<< According to Pro Football Reference, these are the players that are most comparable to Lynn Swann over the course of his career:
Darrell Jackson, Carl Pickens, Al Toon, Plaxico Burress, Laveranues Coles, John Taylor, John Jefferson, Chris Chambers, Derrick Alexander, Alfred Jenkins
Some good players are on that list, but if you take away the fact that Swann was basically just the beneficiary of landing on arguably the best all time team (really) in football at the start of his career, he is not a HOFer. Of course, we all remember the acrobatic catches in those THREE Super Bowl wins (X and XIII) but without that team around him, Swann never makes it to the Super Bowl to begin with, so the number of rings he has is a somewhat misleading gauge of whether he deserves to be in the HOF or not. >>
Nonsense.
I corrected that for you. He made acrobatic catches in 3 super bowls. Swann played on a great team, and one of the reasons why they were great was because he played on them. Without making those amazing catches in two of those super bowls, the Steelers lose. In 1979, during a monday night game, Howard Cosell said Swann was the best wide reciever in the league.
It's obvious you're a Steelers fan and like most fans who let their heart guide their perceptions, you are not willing or able to make objective assessments when it comes to evaluating players. Here are the facts: Lynn Swann was the football equivalent of winning the lottery when he had the great fortune of starting his career with a team that was arguably the best team of all time. If he was so great, why do you think it took him so long to get inducted, despite the fact that the Steelers were a dynasty and a very popular Super Bowl team? Look at the career stats of Lynn Swann and you tell me with a straight face that he is one of the best receivers of all time. You can't be that dense, really, can you? Man crush aside, you can't really say that, can you? If you don't believe me, just look at the list of receivers Swann is comparable to on Pro Football Reference.com, but I doubt objectivity is one of the things you strive for based on your ridiculous posts.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
People here are either Alabama fans, or were kids who just loved Joe. Joe's numbers don't lie, and people who claimed
he had an impact on how the AFL was overlooked totally disrespect all of his teammates who worked their butt off to
beat the Colts. Joe didn't win the game by himself.
Also, saying someone played hurt doesn't really matter. It's all about numbers, and his TD to
INT #'s are just not HOF numbers. He obviously wasn't hurt enough not to play. Bobby Orr played on hurt knees too, but
also put up much greater numbers in the NHL then Joe did in the NFL.
<< <i>
<< According to Pro Football Reference, these are the players that are most comparable to Lynn Swann over the course of his career:
Darrell Jackson, Carl Pickens, Al Toon, Plaxico Burress, Laveranues Coles, John Taylor, John Jefferson, Chris Chambers, Derrick Alexander, Alfred Jenkins
Some good players are on that list, but if you take away the fact that Swann was basically just the beneficiary of landing on arguably the best all time team (really) in football at the start of his career, he is not a HOFer. Of course, we all remember the acrobatic catches in those THREE Super Bowl wins (X and XIII) but without that team around him, Swann never makes it to the Super Bowl to begin with, so the number of rings he has is a somewhat misleading gauge of whether he deserves to be in the HOF or not. >>
Nonsense.
I corrected that for you. He made acrobatic catches in 3 super bowls. Swann played on a great team, and one of the reasons why they were great was because he played on them. Without making those amazing catches in two of those super bowls, the Steelers lose. In 1979, during a monday night game, Howard Cosell said Swann was the best wide reciever in the league.
It's obvious you're a Steelers fan and like most fans who let their heart guide their perceptions, you are not willing or able to make objective assessments when it comes to evaluating players. Here are the facts: Lynn Swann was the football equivalent of winning the lottery when he had the great fortune of starting his career with a team that was arguably the best team of all time. If he was so great, why do you think it took him so long to get inducted, despite the fact that the Steelers were a dynasty and a very popular Super Bowl team? Look at the career stats of Lynn Swann and you tell me with a straight face that he is one of the best receivers of all time. You can't be that dense, really, can you? Man crush aside, you can't really say that, can you? If you don't believe me, just look at the list of receivers Swann is comparable to on Pro Football Reference.com, but I doubt objectivity is one of the things you strive for based on your ridiculous posts. >>
Its pretty obvious that you're a steelers hater for such ignorant posts. Anyone who saw Swann play appreciates his greatness. Swann was small at 5-11, but was so athletic, he could out-leap his defensive opposition. The Steelers had one of the best offenses in the league. And Swann was one of the main reasons they were so good. He was not only one of the best recievers in the late 70's, but also was a excellent punt returner. As a rookie, he led the NFL IN PUNT RETURN YARDS with 577, which is also the fourth best total in HISTORY. The following year Swann led the NFL in touchdowns and was later selected on the 1970's all-decade team. In post-season games Swann had over 900 yards in recieving. His regular season success combined with his post season excellence makes him a sure hall of famer.
If the technology for knee surgery was what it is today, no telling how good he would have been. Gale Sayers is another. After he blew out that knee he wasn't the same after. Today, Gale Sayers knee injury would be a footnote of maybe the greatest NFL player of all time. We will never know.
Apples and Oranges for stats. Remember his 4000 yards came in 12 games, not 16 like today. Back then they played 6 pre season games. Now owners want 2. I'm not defending his stats, but you cannot compare stats from different eras.
Jack Kemp never threw more TD's than int in any season in his career. But he was one tough SOB and won 2 AFL Championships. No HOFer, but in his day a good QB. Times change, just like the music does. I think Dylan said that, no, I just did.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
He did possess a big arm, was a great down the field passer, was tough in the pocket, and had some really bad knee's. He played in a different era where anything went in the defensive backfield. WR's were always getting mugged. The rules were different then. His stat lines suffered.
Good point on him playing many games at the wind tunnell Shea Stadium. A terrible place to pass the ball.
Namath leading the first AFL team to a Super Bowl win, his off the field persona and swagger, playing in New York, he became the big drawing card player for the league to exploit that helped lead to the AFL-NFL merger. All points that helped get him in the HOF, in my opinion.
Really the thing that bothers me more about Namath, is that he was voted the first team all-time QB in AFL history over Len Dawson. Now that's a travesty.
Namath's Suzi Kolber moment was a classic too.
I think there's a few other deserving QB's from Namath's era that aren't in the HOF yet, but seem to deserve some consideration. From the the 1960's-70's : Hadl, Brodie, and Gabriel. From the 1970's: Ken Anderson and maybe Stabler.
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It's funny in the 1970's the leading receiver in all of Football for receptions, yards, and TD catches is the great Harold Jackson. Nobody ever says he deserves to be in the HOF. Yet Swann landing on the best team of the decade, the Steelers, ends up being a HOF'er and on the all decade team at WR. Even though his stats were not as good. The rings are what matters.
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Most overrated HOF'er is Wayne Milner of the Redskins.
<< <i>One other thing I'd like to add before this get way off topic. Rules for hitting the quarterback didn't exist back then. They took a beating every play. No skirts on them in the 60's. You wonder why they threw so many interceptions? Look at some of the films. They were getting kiiled and before they would get killed again they would fling it out there. Today there would be a penalty on every play. Quarterbacks don't have to worry as much about getting killed and the comp-pct rate rises. New rules for receivers, (follow the money, more scoring, more fans, more money) allow them to run free down field.
If the technology for knee surgery was what it is today, no telling how good he would have been. Gale Sayers is another. After he blew out that knee he wasn't the same after. Today, Gale Sayers knee injury would be a footnote of maybe the greatest NFL player of all time. We will never know.
Apples and Oranges for stats. Remember his 4000 yards came in 12 games, not 16 like today. Back then they played 6 pre season games. Now owners want 2. I'm not defending his stats, but you cannot compare stats from different eras.
Jack Kemp never threw more TD's than int in any season in his career. But he was one tough SOB and won 2 AFL Championships. No HOFer, but in his day a good QB. Times change, just like the music does. I think Dylan said that, no, I just did. >>
All good points, although I think Namath's 4007 yard passing year in '68 came in a 14 game season. Still, it set a new record for pro football besting I think Sonny Jurgensen's mark the year before.
What's amazing to me is Daryle Lamonica's three year run from '67-69 where he had around 90 TD passes in 42 games and the Raiders lost only 4 games over that three year period. Lamonica was the league MVP twice in that time frame, yet nobody seems to remember because the Jet's won Super Bowl 3 and the Chiefs won SB 4.
<< <i>He put the AFL on the map and made the leagues join.
If you never saw him play, you don't know what you missed.
2 gimpy knees and the quickest release in history.
Numbers mean nothing when it comes to greatness. >>
In a nutshell!
<< <i>
<< <i>One other thing I'd like to add before this get way off topic. Rules for hitting the quarterback didn't exist back then. They took a beating every play. No skirts on them in the 60's. You wonder why they threw so many interceptions? Look at some of the films. They were getting kiiled and before they would get killed again they would fling it out there. Today there would be a penalty on every play. Quarterbacks don't have to worry as much about getting killed and the comp-pct rate rises. New rules for receivers, (follow the money, more scoring, more fans, more money) allow them to run free down field.
If the technology for knee surgery was what it is today, no telling how good he would have been. Gale Sayers is another. After he blew out that knee he wasn't the same after. Today, Gale Sayers knee injury would be a footnote of maybe the greatest NFL player of all time. We will never know.
Apples and Oranges for stats. Remember his 4000 yards came in 12 games, not 16 like today. Back then they played 6 pre season games. Now owners want 2. I'm not defending his stats, but you cannot compare stats from different eras.
Jack Kemp never threw more TD's than int in any season in his career. But he was one tough SOB and won 2 AFL Championships. No HOFer, but in his day a good QB. Times change, just like the music does. I think Dylan said that, no, I just did. >>
All good points, although I think Namath's 4007 yard passing year in '68 came in a 14 game season. Still, it set a new record for pro football besting I think Sonny Jurgensen's mark the year before.
What's amazing to me is Daryle Lamonica's three year run from '67-69 where he had around 90 TD passes in 42 games and the Raiders lost only 4 games over that three year period. Lamonica was the league MVP twice in that time frame, yet nobody seems to remember because the Jet's won Super Bowl 3 and the Chiefs won SB 4. >>
Best pick up for Bills...Kemp for $100 on waivers. Worst move for the Bills. Trade Lamonica for Flores and Kemp retires that year. WTF were they thinking? LOL
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
You are correct. I'm still back in the 60's, early 60's, when Jimmy Brown was a monster and 1000 yds in 12 games meant something.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
CDsNuts, 1/9/15
For the sake of the Jets topic--and i'm a Chiefs supporter-- i was hoping the Jets would make it to the Superbowl so they could milk a T.V. commercial with Sanchez as "Joe", fur coat and all--predicting a win. Would have been priceless!!
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
when many people were really tunning into it, me included.
He had style, he had looks and he had THE GUN.
Played in the Big Apple and was the face on an entire league
that conqurered the mighty NFL.
Ask the AFL players in those days if they think Joe Namath is a HOFer
and it would be no contest.
When Namath came out of Alabama before he had taken one pro snap
he had a bad knee injury and the thinking was, he would be lucky
to have a decent 5 year career before the knee would be rendered unplayable.
So quite frankly, we never even got to see Namath on the football field at FULL TILT.
Still in his early Jet years, basically the first 4 or 5, he was an absolute incredible
talent!!
The Dude is a HOFer in my book, all day long.
Stats don't even come close to telling half the story of Joe Willie Namath and the impact
he had on the game during his brief run and sadly at the end "limp" through it.
He was a COMET, the brightest one in the entire sky for a few very key years.
[stirring pot]
<< <i>
<< <i>Quarterbacks then had to deal with rules that allowed defensive backs to brutalize receivers. >>
And yet, with all that, Namath still managed to put up worse numbers than his peers. Put it this way - Namath played a full season (all 14 games) 5 times and 13 games 2 others. In those 7 seasons, he led the league in INTs 4 times and was 3rd another. He led the league in TDs once - with 19. Sounds an awful lot like "lots of risk, not a lot of reward", don't it? During Namath's time, the league leaders had pass efficiency ratings in the 95-105 range. Namath's BEST EVER was 74.3. During his career, the league leaders in completion % were around 60-63%. Namath's BEST EVER was 52.5%. It's fun to say that coaches cared less about INTs back then and that guys threw more picks - and that's true. It also ignores that the better QBs in the league still had a lot better TD:INT ratio than Namath did.
Yeah, he had a gun. Yeah, he took chances downfield. Yeah, he might have been an all-time great but for his knees. But the fact is, his stats suck. His W/L record sucks. And his knees DID give out.
Is he a HOFer? I'd say yes but certainly not because of his actual play. He gets in because of influence in bringing the two leagues together. But let's not pretend he's a top 50 QB or anything like that.
Tabe >>
Nicely put,I agree.Stabler shoul be in,just say'in
J.R.
Needs'
1972 Football-9's high#'s
1965 Football-8's
1958 Topps FB-7-8
"Namath was purely the product of hype. In the modern NFL, his mix of high-profile and inferior ability compare to Eli Manning. Broadway Joe was a big personality in a bigger city. Who rode a broad smile, feather boa, a timely quote and an upset victory to far more than his fair share of fame. A barely above average player, a nominative Hall of Famer; Namath's legend stands as one of the greater frauds in the annals of the NFL. All feather, no football."
true dat.
<< <i>I found this great quote:
"Namath was purely the product of hype. In the modern NFL, his mix of high-profile and inferior ability compare to Eli Manning. Broadway Joe was a big personality in a bigger city. Who rode a broad smile, feather boa, a timely quote and an upset victory to far more than his fair share of fame. A barely above average player, a nominative Hall of Famer; Namath's legend stands as one of the greater frauds in the annals of the NFL. All feather, no football."
true dat. >>
You say it's a quote, but you cite no author. Musta been written by someone that Joe was $$^$ his girl friend. Anon.
Besides, if you can't add your own opinon what good are worthless quotes?
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
Steve
<< <i> I think there's a few other deserving QB's from Namath's era that aren't in the HOF yet, but seem to deserve some consideration. From the the 1960's-70's : Hadl, Brodie, and Gabriel. From the 1970's: Ken Anderson and maybe Stabler. >>
I would put every one of those guys in. I don't know how this debate turned into a zero sum game between Stabler and Namath.
<< <i>It's funny in the 1970's the leading receiver in all of Football for receptions, yards, and TD catches is the great Harold Jackson. Nobody ever says he deserves to be in the HOF. >>
Actually, I've written that here, generally to ridicule.
I live in Canton, about 5 minutes from The Hall. It's funny, a number of autograph collecting buddies and me have had this conversation a # of times. Swann and Namath are the two names that most often come up. Often times, we talk about the most deserving guys that are NOT in the Hall. I agree with you "cardbender" Harold Jackson is at / near the top of the list. Have a coup[le of others as well.
Rocke
<< <i>Joe "Flippin" Namath was the KING of Football for a few years: 1967-1970
when many people were really tunning into it, me included.
He had style, he had looks and he had THE GUN.
Played in the Big Apple and was the face on an entire league
that conqurered the mighty NFL.
Ask the AFL players in those days if they think Joe Namath is a HOFer
and it would be no contest.
When Namath came out of Alabama before he had taken one pro snap
he had a bad knee injury and the thinking was, he would be lucky
to have a decent 5 year career before the knee would be rendered unplayable.
So quite frankly, we never even got to see Namath on the football field at FULL TILT.
Still in his early Jet years, basically the first 4 or 5, he was an absolute incredible
talent!!
The Dude is a HOFer in my book, all day long.
Stats don't even come close to telling half the story of Joe Willie Namath and the impact
he had on the game during his brief run and sadly at the end "limp" through it.
He was a COMET, the brightest one in the entire sky for a few very key years. >>
Sums it up very well.
I guess some here are saying...leadership ability of leading a team to winning a Super Bowl against long odds, having a gun for an arm, determination and desire to win as much as any football player I've ever seen play, and good stats to back it up...I guess this all isn't good enough to be in the Hall because his career stats weren't quite good enough for ya. Probably the same bunch who think Sandy Koufax shouldn't be in the Hall because they focus only on how many games he won versus other Hall of Famers.
I then saw that he was the first to do that.
Today isn't that common?
Steve
<< <i>One other thing I'd like to add before this get way off topic. Rules for hitting the quarterback didn't exist back then. They took a beating every play. No skirts on them in the 60's. You wonder why they threw so many interceptions? Look at some of the films. They were getting kiiled and before they would get killed again they would fling it out there. Today there would be a penalty on every play. Quarterbacks don't have to worry as much about getting killed and the comp-pct rate rises. New rules for receivers, (follow the money, more scoring, more fans, more money) allow them to run free down field. >>
That all sounds great - the rules were looser, the play tougher, blah blah blah. Until you see that Joe performed below the standard set by his peers at the time. So, yeah, comparing him to Tom Brady's numbers isn't fair. But he comes up short being compared to his contemporaries, too. Scroll up to my previous post for more details.
<< <i>Apples and Oranges for stats. Remember his 4000 yards came in 12 games, not 16 like today. Back then they played 6 pre season games. Now owners want 2. I'm not defending his stats, but you cannot compare stats from different eras. >>
14 games, not 12. Still, very impressive.
Tabe
<< <i>He's still an overrated hack. >>
Well at least you came up with you own opinion.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.