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How to turn $157.25 into a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle thenavarro's journey, June 10 + pair of Michael

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  • KK Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭
    You should TTM to the other 2 guys and then get it framed.
  • Personally, I'd love to have one of those Tommie Smith autos. When you receive them feel free to PM me as I may have some $ to spend by then.

    PS
    White Whales:
    1996 Select Certified Mirror Gold Ozzie Smith
    2006 Bowman Chrome Orange Refractor Chris Carpenter
  • Bosox1976Bosox1976 Posts: 8,563 ✭✭✭✭✭
    +1 for "whimsical" -- and I love the parlay.
    Mike
    Bosox1976
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    I bought this for $30.00 delivered. It's an Angelo Dundee (HOF trainer for many including Ali) signed glove.

    image

    I had $53.82 minus $2 to ship the Ford to K, minus $8.00 to ship one Tommie Smith to auction house for March auction, minus $30 for this glove.

    For those keeping score, I now have $13.82 in cash.

    TWO 20 x 24 signed Tommie Smith photos (one is on its way to http://www.rrauction.com R&R Enterprises for it's March catalog auction)
    Angelo Dundee signed boxing glove
    Richard Nixon signed resignation letter (currently listed on ebay)
    Jimmy Carter signed typescript on peace
    Gerald Ford signed whimsical mock WH card

    Mike
    Buying US Presidential autographs


  • << <i>You should TTM to the other 2 guys and then get it framed. >>



    Might be tough getting Peter Norman to sign them

    Really wanted to use the infamous Steiner discount code on one of those, but they were sold out at the time. Perhaps the greatest sports image in history
    Tom
  • KbKardsKbKards Posts: 1,782 ✭✭✭
    I don't understand a few things here. You're buying original books signed by a President. You cut out the page with the real signature and create a "souvenir" piece of paper that has a fake message printed on it to make it look like it has important historical significance. Wouldn't the original book with the signature inside have a greater value? Why would the "souvenir" have more value, who would buy something like this knowing it's a fantasy piece, and what happens when somebody down the road gets burned thinking they're buying the real thing? There certainly has to be a market for them as original signed books, and profitable too if you're good at scouring the auctions for them.
  • ROCKDJRWROCKDJRW Posts: 1,330 ✭✭✭


    << <i> what happens when somebody down the road gets burned thinking they're buying the real thing? . >>


    So you think someone thinks they are buying Nixon's original resignation letter on Ebay?
    Edited to add: How is this any diffrent then someone having a game model bat signed? It's not game used but looks like a game used bat!
    Collect Ozzie Guillen Cards
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  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I don't understand a few things here. You're buying original books signed by a President. You cut out the page with the real signature and create a "souvenir" piece of paper that has a fake message printed on it to make it look like it has important historical significance. Wouldn't the original book with the signature inside have a greater value? Why would the "souvenir" have more value, who would buy something like this knowing it's a fantasy piece, and what happens when somebody down the road gets burned thinking they're buying the real thing? There certainly has to be a market for them as original signed books, and profitable too if you're good at scouring the auctions for them. >>



    I'll quickly address your questions individually, and then finish with a longer discourse. Question: "Wouldn't the original book with the signature inside have a greater value?" Answer: NO Question "Why would the "souvenir" have more value?" Answer: Because the market dictates that it does and they routinely sell for higher prices than a routine book Question: "Who would buy something like this knowing it's a fantasy piece?" Answer : Anyone that wants a nice souvenir of a historical moment done attractively and professionally, Question "What happens when somebody down the road gets burned thinking they're buying the real thing?" Answer: What are you calling the real thing? These are all authenitically autographed and will forever be authentically autographed, there is no attempt to pass them off as the original document that Nixon used to resign the Presidency, the original is in the National Archives, these are marketed as souvenir typescripts.

    Now onto the longer discourse:

    Typescripts have been a part of the autograph industry for over a century. There were even some Presidents that would sign items at the top left of a page in order to prevent similar things from happening. These types of items have been parts of the industry for over 100 years.

    You mention the signed book market so I assume (which might be incorrect) you've had some interaction concerning "signed book" sales. I'm sure you are aware that on almost all publisher issued signed book editions, that the book was not actually signed by the celebrity. The celebrity is sent a stack of pages, and they sign those and then the publisher tips the pages into the book, the celebrity never touches or sees the actual book. Are those fake signed books? Do you expect the dealer to say, "I'm selling a book that has had a page that was presigned by the celebrity, bound into it, during the manufacturing process, and the said celebrity has never touched or held this book and for that matter, didn't know that the cover or slipcase looked like" Of course you don't expect that, you expect them to say "signed book"

    In the trading card industry, I'm sure you've probably seen "custom cut" autographed trading cards of people like Edgar Allen Poe, numerous Kings, Presidents, etc. As I'm sure you are aware, those celebrities NEVER signed those individual cards, they were made by cutting out "cut" autographs and implemented into the card by creative presentation. Are those fake signed cards (well some of them are if you've seen some of Upper Deck's blunders)?

    Is any custom frame and mat job of autographs "fake" and a "fantasy piece" as well? The celebrity never signed that framed and matted presentation, they simply signed a card or document that the owner chose to present in a different format.

    Did you know that every Gerald Ford signed Pardon of Richard Nixon, every JFK signed "Ask not what, etc." quote, 90% of the autographed oath's of office of every President, etc, etc, etc. are all made in the exact same fashion? I take it those are "fakes" as well.

    There are numerous autograph industry publications that outline what a typescript is and how they are made, and as you've seen from my discourse in this thread, there is no attempt to hide how they are done. Many people choose to have them in their collections as authentically autographed souvenirs that commemorate a specific moment of history or special event that holds importance to that person.

    Now back to our regulary scheduled program,

    Mike

    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • KbKardsKbKards Posts: 1,782 ✭✭✭
    The original signed game model bat is not the problem. It would be somebody altering the bat to simulate game use and adding "This is the bat I used to hit #62" above the authentic Sammy Sosa signature to create a "souvenir" piece. Sold with full disclosure of course as a souvenir, the new item has increased in value, to some people.
  • I would also like to respond to the "Who would buy it?" question, if I were to collect presidential autographs I would much rather have a typescript than a signed book for the simple reason that books are usually signed on the inside which would make it much harder to display whereas a typescript can be framed and hung on any wall.
  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The original signed game model bat is not the problem. It would be somebody altering the bat to simulate game use and adding "This is the bat I used to hit #62" above the authentic Sammy Sosa signature to create a "souvenir" piece. Sold with full disclosure of course as a souvenir, the new item has increased in value, to some people. >>



    People obviously know that these are souvenirs and I doubt anyone will purchase that resignation letter under the impression that it is the ACTUAL resignation letter The reason that the Jimmy Carter letters go for so much more than the books is because Jimmy Carter has written about 20 books and does nationwide tours for each of them (I went to one) and the market is flooded, as apossed to these letters which are a unique idea and there aren't many. Of course, in about 4-6 months the price will level out because I am sure more and more people will start to do this once they see them going for this sort of premium.
    My eBay Store =)

    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
  • Mike,

    Are any of these on ebay? What's your ebay username?

    I may be interested in buying something from you if timing and circumstance fall in line.
  • Mike -

    Excellent discourse in explaining the souvenir autograph process.

    cheers
  • AnkurJAnkurJ Posts: 11,370 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I don't understand a few things here. You're buying original books signed by a President. You cut out the page with the real signature and create a "souvenir" piece of paper that has a fake message printed on it to make it look like it has important historical significance. Wouldn't the original book with the signature inside have a greater value? Why would the "souvenir" have more value, who would buy something like this knowing it's a fantasy piece, and what happens when somebody down the road gets burned thinking they're buying the real thing? There certainly has to be a market for them as original signed books, and profitable too if you're good at scouring the auctions for them. >>





    Cut signatures are common place in presidential autograph collectors. I think what was done with the Nixon auto is pretty cool!
    Obviously he is not selling it as the original document. So now harm no foul. It also would make a hell of a conversation piece!
    All coins kept in bank vaults.
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  • Are those Ford's authentic? I know that he was very active TTM but that his secretaries were signing alot of his mail. What can you say about Ford's TTM's? Where did the ones you have come from?
  • TrevmoTrevmo Posts: 201 ✭✭
    All I have to say is who cares how many times this has been done. Who cares how many people post threads on here trying to turn $1 into $5000. If this is what you want to do, go for it! Good luck on your quest and I hope you eventually get that Mantle card. Keep the photos coming so we can see what you are picking up and selling.

    Trevor
    Collecting Ozzie Smith PSA 10's, 1949 Bowman PSA 5's, and 1949 Bowman PCL'S in any grade!
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Are those Ford's authentic? I know that he was very active TTM but that his secretaries were signing alot of his mail. What can you say about Ford's TTM's? Where did the ones you have come from? >>



    I'll address your questions individually to start: Question: Are those Ford's authentic? Answer: Yes , Queston: What can you say about Ford's TTM's? Answer: He was the most prolific Presidential signer in history TTM, with the exception being the couple of years he spent in the WH when he was too busy running the country to comply with TTM requests. Most TTM items to Ford while he was in the White House were signed by an autopen that has a a characteristic called "The Checkmark F", (not going into that for purposes of answering this question. Question: Where did the ones you have come from? Answer: I bought the signed index cards from a gentleman away from ebay that I've dealt with on ebay. I used my experience to pass judgement on their authenticity, they are good.

    Now, a little free form. I have been buying/selling/trading Presidential autographs a large part of my adult life. I consider myself to be fairly adept at authenticating most Presidential autographs, if there are some that I'm not sure about, I'll consult with some of my friends, who are consultants for PSA/DNA and JSA before I buy or offer them for sale. I've bought/sold/traded hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Presidential autographs that were subsequently submitted to PSA/DNA or JSA and all have passed with one exception (a Bill Clinton autopen that I was not yet familiar with the pattern) When I first got started in Presidential, I made a mistake and bought a JFK from a dealer based on his reputation, but once I got the auto in hand, I could tell immediately it wasn't real. I got burned that time, and promised myself to educate myself in order to minimize the chances of that happening again. So, while I am capable of making a mistake concerning a Presidential signature, that is typically not the case.

    I used to be a small player in the Presidential market as you can see here, here is a collection of Presidents that I sold in 2005 through R&R Enterprises (a PSA/DNA historical consultant/authenticator)

    Click link and scroll to page 18 for "The Mike Navarro Presidential Collection"

    (you can also see some of my typescripts on pages 1-17 of that link that other people were selling that I sold them)

    I'm off to coach pee wee basketball for a few hours, be back later.

    Take care,

    Mike
    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • Betty Ford was always a great TTM as well. I can imagine the couple setting at the table to sign today's mail pile, Gerald's stack always a little bigger.
    Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards.
    Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    Accepted a best offer on the Nixon today of $200.00 plus $6.00 shipping equals $206 minus ebay and paypal fees and shipping cost of $29.62 equals net proceeds from Nixon sale of $176.38 (I'm really going to have to find alternatives to ebay because the fees are GOBBLING up a lot of the gross proceeds)

    Cash is now at $190.20

    and I have currently available

    TWO 20 x 24 signed Tommie Smith photos (one is on its way to http://www.rrauction.com R&R Enterprises for it's March catalog auction)
    Angelo Dundee signed boxing glove
    Jimmy Carter signed typescript on peace
    Gerald Ford signed whimsical mock WH card

    Mike
    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    Sold the Jimmy Carter typescript to a fellow board member today for a net to me after fees and shipping of $74.07

    Cash is now at $264.27

    and I have currently available

    TWO 20 x 24 signed Tommie Smith photos (one is on its way to http://www.rrauction.com R&R Enterprises for it's March catalog auction)
    Angelo Dundee signed boxing glove
    Gerald Ford signed whimsical mock WH card

    Building inventory and building cash, that's a good combination for continued success in this project. I don't have time the next few days to look for things to buy, but I'll be back on the prowl this upcoming weekend.

    Mike
    Buying US Presidential autographs


  • << <i>


    Building inventory and building cash, that's a good combination for continued success in this project.
    Mike >>




    That's what it's all about Mike, looks good so far.
  • RogermnjRogermnj Posts: 1,809 ✭✭


    << <i>Sold the Jimmy Carter typescript to a fellow board member today for a net to me after fees and shipping of $74.07

    Cash is now at $264.27

    and I have currently available

    TWO 20 x 24 signed Tommie Smith photos (one is on its way to http://www.rrauction.com R&R Enterprises for it's March catalog auction)
    Angelo Dundee signed boxing glove
    Gerald Ford signed whimsical mock WH card

    Building inventory and building cash, that's a good combination for continued success in this project. I don't have time the next few days to look for things to buy, but I'll be back on the prowl this upcoming weekend.

    Mike >>




    As other people have tried to get a 52 mantle i gave them about 1%.

    With you, i would say its pretty much 100% and would actually be shocked if this didnt happen.

    Nice start and good luck!
  • BobSBobS Posts: 1,738 ✭✭
    Way to go!!! I give it 100% also.


  • << <i>Way to go!!! I give it 100% also. >>

    I third the comment. Nice movement already. Good luck Mike!
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    I bought two more Nixon books that will be turned into 2 more souvenir resignation letters.

    This one cost me $146.89

    image

    and this one cost me $86.27

    image

    On these two, the signature is not dated like it was in the last one, so they will go for subtantially higher then the dated one when I resell them.

    Cash is now at $31.11

    and I have currently available

    TWO 20 x 24 signed Tommie Smith photos (one has been accepted for the March auction at http://www.rrauction.com)
    Angelo Dundee signed boxing glove (which I've been lazy and haven't offered to sell anywhere yet)
    Gerald Ford signed whimsical mock WH card
    2 Richard Nixon signed books(which will become souvenir resignation letters once I get them in, I'll send at least one to a major auction house)

    I believe the merchandise listed will net me at least $800 or more after fees.

    Slow, but steady image


    Mike
    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • DboneesqDboneesq Posts: 18,219 ✭✭
    WTG Mike ... keep 'em coming.
    STAY HEALTHY!

    Doug

    Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,438 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's pretty darn cool Mike!

    I think you have a great imagination.

    mike
    Mike
  • vladguerrerovladguerrero Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭
    Mike, throw up a Tommie Smith pick!
  • gregm13gregm13 Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭
    Nice job Mike!

    Greg M.
    Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!

    References:
    Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
    E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
  • KK Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭
    You should use some of your funds on TTM's that you could alter for a flip.

    For instance buy an unsigned 8x10. Send it to get auto'd TTM. Get a PSA/DNA authentication done on it. Frame / matte it, and attach the PSA/DNA cert to the rear. Sell for a profit.
  • Any Updates?


    what is your $ goal to buy a mantle? $2500?


    ps .. this thread rocks
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    Just a quick update, got the Nixon books in and made souvenir resignation letters out of them, turned out really nice.

    Cash is now at $31.11

    and I have currently available

    TWO 20 x 24 signed Tommie Smith photos
    Angelo Dundee signed boxing glove
    Gerald Ford signed whimsical mock WH card
    2 Richard Nixon signed souvenir resignation letters


    One of the Tommie Smith's will be sold in March at this link (auction is up and running today)

    Tommie Smith being sold at R&R Enterprises March Auction

    At least one Nixon resignation will be sold at the same auction house in April, and will probably place the Ford there too for the April auction.

    I might send the other Nixon there as well, but might decide to flip it on ebay too. The way for me to maximize my money is to send to the auction house, as they've been selling my stuff since 2001 or so and do quite well for me, but I realize there is not a whole lot of entertainment value in doing that (and this thread IS partially about entertainment value), so I'll probably put the other Nixon back into ebay play and start churning the wheels again image


    Mike
    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    I got a couple PM's asking where I was at, so thought I'd give a quick update:

    Cash is now at $31.11

    and I have currently available

    TWO 20 x 24 signed Tommie Smith photos (one is at an auction that ends one week from Wednesday)
    Angelo Dundee signed boxing glove
    Gerald Ford signed whimsical mock WH card (has been sent to a national catalog and online auction for April)
    2 Richard Nixon signed souvenir resignation letters (has been sent to a national catalog and online auction for one in April and one in May)

    Project is alive and well, just wanted to maximize my funds on the items that have been shipped off to auction. These auctions should get me way ahead of where I've been (the Nixon's will do very well there, anything else that sells, will just be a bonus on top of that)

    While I'm waiting on those, I do have one Tommie Smith photo and the Dundee glove to play with, in case someone wants to make an offer on those.

    Mike

    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • RogermnjRogermnj Posts: 1,809 ✭✭
    ON a side note, if you could ballpark the amount of hours you spend on this project I think it would add a lot.

  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    Just a quick update as auction night is approaching

    Current cash is at $31.11 and inventory is at:

    TWO 20 x 24 signed Tommie Smith photos
    Angelo Dundee signed boxing glove
    Gerald Ford signed whimsical mock WH card ( will be auctioned on Wednesday night at this link Ford auction )
    2 Richard Nixon signed souvenir resignation letters (one will be auctioned Wednesday night at this link
    bidding already up to $357.00 on one
    and one will be in the same national auction in May)

    These two Nixon's at the auction should really get the ball rolling in the right direction again. I tried to auction one of the Smith's at a substantial profit and it didn't sell, so I might just sell the Smith's at cost to dump non-productive inventory.
    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    I've had a couple PM's asking where I'm at on this, so thought I'd post my first update in a couple months to post the progress. I've spent less then a couple hours on this project since the last post and this is where I now stand.

    I sold the 2 Nixon's at rrauction.com, one in April and one in May. They both had a hammer price of $393.00 and after I paid the lot fee and commission, I realized $319.05 on EACH one. The Ford did not get the $100 opening bid, so I had to pay the lot fee ($15) on that one So after those sales, I had $319.05 plus $319.05 minus $15 plus $31.11 that was leftover from before.

    Total cash therefore was up to:

    $654.21 and I had the following in inventory (still haven't tried to sell it, been working on signed rookies instead image )

    TWO 20 x 24 signed Tommie Smith photos
    Angelo Dundee signed boxing glove
    Gerald Ford signed whimsical mock WH card

    Then, on May 18, I bought another Nixon book on ebay for $104.93 plus $2.77 media mail shipping for a total of $107.70. I have already turned it around into a Nixon resignation of course, and I have a dealer that I made a deal with to buy it for $225.00 plus shipping, as soon as he pays, I'll update the cash totals. If for some reason he doesn't pay, it will be off to rrauction for another $300 plus auction.

    Additionally, I bought a fun item in Hunt Auctions tonight that will inject some fun back into the thread instead of Nixon, Nixon, Nixon, and more Nixon. It might turn out to be a mistake, but hey, this ain't surgery or anything real important anyway. As soon as I get the auction invoice and know how much they are charging me total, then I'll post pics of the cool new acquisition and update the cash totals and inventory above.

    Mike


    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • pdub1819pdub1819 Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm glad to see how this is going. You definitely know how to make this happen.
  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,710 ✭✭✭
  • richtreerichtree Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭
    awesome ...


    I always wanted to try this with a RIpken F-Face error to a Sherry Magie error
    Buying:
    Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
    80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
    90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
    90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
    1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
    81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
    91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
  • RonBurgundyRonBurgundy Posts: 5,491 ✭✭✭
    Mike, good stuff. If you want my autographed stuff cheap so you can flip it and make more money for your journey, PM me and we can set something up.
    Ron Burgundy

    Buying Vintage, all sports.
    Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    Here is the new addition to my inventory for purposes of this thread. I picked it up at Hunt Auctions last night. My total cost was $190.95

    "Description: Pair of Michael Jordan personal Footjoy golf shoes (EX). White leather size 13 Footjoy Classics Tour golf shoes. Pair exhibits moderate usage wear including some surface scuffing and course residue on shoe bottoms. The offered golf shoes originated from the personal collection of Michael Jordan and include COA from Upper Deck Authenticated: EX"

    image

    If anyone happens to run across a photo of Jordan golfing wearing these shoes, please let me know as it would be awesome to find a photo match.

    Here's some more copy from the auction:

    "The Personal Collection of Michael Jordan

    image

    In conjunction with Upper Deck Authenticated, Hunt Auctions is proud to present Michael Jordan's personal collection of golf clubs, bags, and other golf related material. Represented in lots 964-993, the items originate directly from Michael Jordan and are accompanied by COA's from UDA confirming the provenance as such.

    Upon retiring from the most storied career in basketball history, with six NBA titles and five MVP awards, Michael Jordan translated his competitive prowess into a sport famous for defying even the most talented athletes: golf. Combining pleasure with competition, Jordan regularly travels throughout the US, the Bahamas, and the British Isles hosting and playing in charity golf events. Through his passion for the game of golf, Michael Jordan has focused his competitive energies on the continuing pursuit of excellence - a pursuit that began on the hard-court and made him, bar-none, the greatest player in NBA history.

    A portion of the proceeds from the sale of these items will benefit the James Jordan Foundation."



    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • DboneesqDboneesq Posts: 18,219 ✭✭
    Kewl item Mike. I'm sure if you find the right person you will do well with those. GOOD LUCK!
    STAY HEALTHY!

    Doug

    Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
  • samspopsamspop Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭
    Keep it up Mike. Good luck getting to your goal!
  • SidePocketSidePocket Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭
    I'm hoping you keep doing well with this - but I can't imagine wanting someone's used golf shoes.

    "Molon Labe"

  • DoctorKDoctorK Posts: 868 ✭✭✭
    Update?
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Update? >>



    I'm still at it, but I got up to about $1208.00 and change and I used it to buy a few signed rookie cards. As soon as I replenish my funds, I'll start it back image

    Mike
    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • vettfanaticvettfanatic Posts: 643 ✭✭✭
    So did you get the Mantle yet?
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