Does it matter where a silver bar is minted?
nam812
Posts: 10,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
Probably another silly question, but I just don't want to screw up. Are all 10 oz bars of .999 silver created equal? Just to name a few I see Silvertowne mint, Johnson Mathey, Monarch mint, Engelhard, Sunshing minting etc.....
Thanks in advance.
Nick
Thanks in advance.
Nick
0
Comments
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<< <i>The short answer is no, they're not all created equal. >>
That's a start. Are there certain names/mints to stick with? Certain ones to avoid?
Nick
Top Tier
Johnson Matthey
Engelhard
Pamp
Credit Suisse
Second Tier
Apmex
A-mark
Silver Towne
Heraeus
OPM
Third Tier
Sunshine
Wall Street
Academy
NWT
Pan American
I would own any of these brands but I'd much, much rather have the first tier. I'd pay a small premium for top tier or feel like I got something good if I didn't have to. I'd buy second tier stuff without hesitation at melt. I'd really need to be hard up for some silver to buy third tier. If they're not up there somewhere, I would probably pass unless it's an interesting but still legit less common name (Deak, Degaussa, Kitco, etc). And all other things equal, I'd take top tier stuff first, then second tier, then third tier--again, only if I really needed something.
I'm not a bar collector per se, so I'm not really a fan of questionable no-name, old pour bars with unusual weights and/or fineness.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>The short answer is no, they're not all created equal. >>
How are they not equal? Do some companies cheat on the metal content? If so, which ones?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I have some wall street mint 10 oz bars you would probably like. They have a skyline of NYC and were made right after 9/11. I think I paid around $200 each for them. You can find them a lot on ebay.
<< <i>
<< <i>The short answer is no, they're not all created equal. >>
How are they not equal? Do some companies cheat on the metal content? If so, which ones? >>
Nope. Not to my knowledge, at least. But buyers seem to prefer some brands over others.
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<< <i>I'd like to add Credit Suisse & Pamp Suisse to that Top Tier list
Doh! Of course Cars is right. I don't often think of them in regards to silver, but they do have silver, too.
Is it Jester who has those amazing city scape and classic artwork Pamp silver bars in the assay cards? Those are killer.
--Severian the Lame
Weiss - So then it's safe to say that you would buy 5 Johnson Matthey 10 oz ingots for $910?
<< <i>Thanks for all the responses, and help so far. If any of you guys ever need help over on the sports card side, make sure you look me up.
Weiss - So then it's safe to say that you would buy 5 Johnson Matthey 10 oz ingots for $910? >>
Unless my math is off, that's below melt right now. So yeah.
However, I do recall something about *possible* fake JM bars not too long ago. So I might want the bars with the patterns on the back, and preferably in the sealed plastic sleeves.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd like to add Credit Suisse & Pamp Suisse to that Top Tier list
Doh! Of course Cars is right. I don't often think of them in regards to silver, but they do have silver, too.
Is it Jester who has those amazing city scape and classic artwork Pamp silver bars in the assay cards? Those are killer. >>
Yes it is Jester.
BTW, if you get a change to purchase any pamp suisse bars I'd purchase 1 oz bars for up to $40/oz and Credit Suisse $25/oz. They carry a very high premium on small bars. Pamps normally sell in the $60-$70 range
Yes, I have been lucky enough to have been in the right place at the right time to pick up some marvelous Pamp bars, among others. To me it's not only about the bullion, though that was the reason I got started. Art/theme/commercial bars can be really fun, and I have numismatic blood running through my veins so I don't hesitate to pay (way) over melt to get bars I like. On the other hand, it pays to gain experience in what's rare and what's not.
Good luck!
PS: there are plenty of names left off those lists, such as Argor, Valcambi, Degussa, Ogussa, Umicore and many more. As they say, silver is silver, and I don't see any reason not to trust the major assayers.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
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Yes.
One brand listed in Weiss's 2nd tier did in fact get caught using .925 / scrap sterling to make their ".999" bars.
I avoid their bars now. I will not say who due to the legal firestorm that I would no doubt incure.
The information is out there if you look for it.
********************
Silver is the mortar that binds the bricks of loyalty.
then it's not trading as strictly bullion... someone is paying for them being rare or cool or pretty or having some other characteristic than just silver
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>How are they not equal? Do some companies cheat on the metal content? If so, which ones? >>
That leads us to 4th tier - the known bogus companies.
CMC Mint is the one that comes to mind. Every medal of theirs that I have weighed has been about 3% short.
<< <i>However, I do recall something about *possible* fake JM bars not too long ago. >>
The only thing I recall is the 1-ounce platinum fake, but that one even a novice would immediately recognize; it wasn't designed to fool (it weighs about 1/3 oz, and is obviously a stick on a piece of tin or something, and it is almost hard to read the way the sticker was made).
If there are others out there, I would be interested to hear about them.
<< <i>and Tulving? what's their standing? >>
Tulving has bullion bars? I know they're a reseller. One of the lowest premium outfits out there. They are reliable and inexpensive, but they have high minimum orders.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>
<< <i>and Tulving? what's their standing? >>
Tulving has bullion bars? I know they're a reseller. One of the lowest premium outfits out there. They are reliable and inexpensive, but they have high minimum orders. >>
Yes they do and bags of older silver coins as well
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>and Tulving? what's their standing? >>
Tulving has bullion bars? I know they're a reseller. One of the lowest premium outfits out there. They are reliable and inexpensive, but they have high minimum orders. >>
Yes they do and bags of older silver coins as well >>
Lazer, Tulving is a retailer. They don't have Tulving brand silver bars, do they? We're not talking about retailers, we're talking about manufacturers.
--Severian the Lame
http://www.tulving.com/goldbull.html
<< <i>well excuse me >>
If my response seemed a bit harsh, its only because you were corrected by Weiss not once, but twice and yet still pursued the issue.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Do the top tier bars have more and purer/finer silver than the second tier bars? What about the third tier bars? How underweight are their bars and how far are their purity/fineness off from their marked 999 fineness? When buying second or third tier bars, how much are they worth below the current silver melt. I'm interested in buying silver bullion and I don't want to get short changed when buying those second and third tier bars. >>
Linky
CaptHenways response on another thread.
First Majestic Silver and Golden Analytical could also be added to the aforementioned list. I love the GA bars when found with no extra premium.
I may be mistaken but I believe that OPM bars are .995.
HH
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i>I may be mistaken but I believe that OPM bars are .995. >>
No! They are 9995 fine.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Maybe just me but I buy bars for bullion. Whatever I can find on sale as long as it's .999 is fine. >>
Agree as long as the bar is marked by a recognized manufacturer.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If the bars are .999 and weigh 10oz then they are equal, demand for specific names creates a premium in the price.
I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it - Clint Eastwood
<< <i>Probably another silly question, but I just don't want to screw up. Are all 10 oz bars of .999 silver created equal? Just to name a few I see Silvertowne mint, Johnson Mathey, Monarch mint, Engelhard, Sunshing minting etc.....
If the bars are .999 and weigh 10oz then they are equal, demand for specific names creates a premium in the price. >>
If they are both equal, paying more for one than the other is irrational IMO.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
When in doubt, ask the market (or uncle Gresham):
Apmex: Engelhard 10 oz bars @ $1.99 / oz over spot
Apmex: JM 10 oz bars @ $1.99 / oz over spot
Apmex: Sunshine 10 oz bars @ $.79 / oz over spot
--Severian the Lame
As Low as $0.59 per oz over spot!
100 oz (.9999) Fine Silver Bars (NEW RCM)
As Low as $0.69 per oz over spot!
Brand New (4 X 9 Pure) Silver bars!
100 oz Silver Bars .999 Fine - Sunshine (Struck Style)
As low as $0.79 per ounce over spot!
100 oz .999 Fine Silver Bars - Heraeus - (Extruded)
As low as $0.79 per oz over spot!
at APMEX
I guess the weight has something to do with it?
<< <i>They're not equal. One is more desirable. One is potentially more liquid.
When in doubt, ask the market (or uncle Gresham):
Apmex: Engelhard 10 oz bars @ $1.99 / oz over spot
Apmex: JM 10 oz bars @ $1.99 / oz over spot
Apmex: Sunshine 10 oz bars @ $.79 / oz over spot >>
When buying bullion, it's not rational paying $1.20 per oz more for one brand over another brand with the same exact quantity and purity of silver.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>100 oz (NEW - Johnson Matthey) .999 Fine Silver Bars
As Low as $0.59 per oz over spot!
100 oz (.9999) Fine Silver Bars (NEW RCM)
As Low as $0.69 per oz over spot!
Brand New (4 X 9 Pure) Silver bars!
100 oz Silver Bars .999 Fine - Sunshine (Struck Style)
As low as $0.79 per ounce over spot!
100 oz .999 Fine Silver Bars - Heraeus - (Extruded)
As low as $0.79 per oz over spot!
at APMEX
I guess the weight has something to do with it?
Touche. Though I'd guess the style of manufacture has something to do with it (poured vs. struck/extruded). Regardless, the difference in premium per ounce is a lot less extreme than on the 10 oz bars by the same makers.
--Severian the Lame
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Weiss---Why did you list Sunshine Minting as a third tier manufacturer when Sunshine Minting is the major supplier of the silver planchets to the US Mint? >>
For the same reason Apmex sell Engelhard 1 oz bars for $28.63 and JM 1 oz bars for $25.73, but Sunshine bars are only $25.33. They're not as well-known, they don't command a premium, they aren't interesting to collectors, and they aren't as interesting to me.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>In my opinion as a physical metals investor, not necessarily a collector looking for old or rare bars. An incomplete list of some of the most commonly found mfgs:
Top Tier
Johnson Matthey
Engelhard
Pamp
Credit Suisse
Second Tier
Apmex
A-mark
Silver Towne
Heraeus
OPM
Third Tier
Sunshine
Wall Street
Academy
NWT
Pan American
I would own any of these brands but I'd much, much rather have the first tier. I'd pay a small premium for top tier or feel like I got something good if I didn't have to. I'd buy second tier stuff without hesitation at melt. I'd really need to be hard up for some silver to buy third tier. If they're not up there somewhere, I would probably pass unless it's an interesting but still legit less common name (Deak, Degaussa, Kitco, etc). And all other things equal, I'd take top tier stuff first, then second tier, then third tier--again, only if I really needed something.
I'm not a bar collector per se, so I'm not really a fan of questionable no-name, old pour bars with unusual weights and/or fineness. >>
Where do you think the Monex bars would be listed?
Thanks!
<< <i>
<< <i>Weiss---Why did you list Sunshine Minting as a third tier manufacturer when Sunshine Minting is the major supplier of the silver planchets to the US Mint? >>
For the same reason Apmex sell Engelhard 1 oz bars for $28.63 and JM 1 oz bars for $25.73, but Sunshine bars are only $25.33. They're not as well-known, they don't command a premium, they aren't interesting to collectors, and they aren't as interesting to me. >>
Several of the companies that you list as second or third tier are recognized within the bullion industry as being highly reputable firms that produce quality products that are of full weight and of the specified fineness. They are priced closer to melt value because they are being heavily produced and are readily available in the marketplace without any shortages. Some of the more expensive bars such as the Engelhard bars and older J-M bars carry a premium because they are no longer being made and are scarcer in the marketplace. They have some collector value or novelty value. It's up to the buyer to decide if they are worth the premium but the buyer needs to be aware that it may be hard to get that premium back from the local coin dealer.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
Several of the companies that you list as second or third tier are recognized within the bullion industry as being highly reputable firms that produce quality products that are of full weight and of the specified fineness. They are priced closer to melt value because they are being heavily produced and are readily available in the marketplace without any shortages. Some of the more expensive bars such as the Engelhard bars and older J-M bars carry a premium because they are no longer being made and are scarcer in the marketplace. They have some collector value or novelty value. It's up to the buyer to decide if they are worth the premium but the buyer needs to be aware that it may be hard to get that premium back from the local coin dealer. >>
Agreed. After thinking about it, I'd keep Sunshine where it is.
Mostly because the name sounds ridiculous. Precious metals are big, bad, beefy. Molten. Hammered. Extruded. Milled. Dug from deep in the ground and purified by fire.
"Sunshine Mint" sounds like a place where Oompa Loompas in pink tights make gumdrops.
This is my only Sunshine Mint product. I think it speaks for itself:
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>
<< <i>In my opinion as a physical metals investor, not necessarily a collector looking for old or rare bars. An incomplete list of some of the most commonly found mfgs:
Top Tier
Johnson Matthey
Engelhard
Pamp
Credit Suisse
Second Tier
Apmex
A-mark
Silver Towne
Heraeus
OPM
Third Tier
Sunshine
Wall Street
Academy
NWT
Pan American
I would own any of these brands but I'd much, much rather have the first tier. I'd pay a small premium for top tier or feel like I got something good if I didn't have to. I'd buy second tier stuff without hesitation at melt. I'd really need to be hard up for some silver to buy third tier. If they're not up there somewhere, I would probably pass unless it's an interesting but still legit less common name (Deak, Degaussa, Kitco, etc). And all other things equal, I'd take top tier stuff first, then second tier, then third tier--again, only if I really needed something.
I'm not a bar collector per se, so I'm not really a fan of questionable no-name, old pour bars with unusual weights and/or fineness. >>
Where do you think the Monex bars would be listed?
Thanks! >>
FYI- and apologize if anyone already pointed this out but....Sunshine makes the bars for two of the names listed in your second tier and one in the first tier. They also strike legal tender coinage and as everyone knows are an official USM supplier. You can think of them anyway you like but they are world class, trusted by top companies and mints around the world, and belong in that top tier....
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>
FYI- and apologize if anyone already pointed this out but....Sunshine makes the bars for two of the names listed in your second tier and one in the first tier.
John >>
That is another reason NOT to like their products. Bottom tier.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>comrade w, what's the tier for Carr bars and rounds in your opinion? Fourth? Specialty? >>
Yeah, that's not bullion. That's collector material.
--Severian the Lame