when buying gold, should one buy bars or coins (assume same weight in each)
joebb21
Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭✭✭
and why?
if same weight, then same spot value. or is there more?
if same weight, then same spot value. or is there more?
may the fonz be with you...always...
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Coins will never be discounted for assay.
<< <i>whats assay? >>
That's the whole point isn't it. Without an assay how can you be sure of weight and purity? They have coins rims on coins for a reason, shaving and filling are a risk with bars and you have to be careful. Coins would have to be in OGP or graded to ensure they are what they claim although with all these boxes and papers coming for sale on Ebay it's just a matter of time as gold goes up they will have fakes in them too.
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
<< <i>Coins. Always.
Coins will never be discounted for assay. >>
Allow me to run circles 'round you, logically.
Which is better to have, a coin or a bar?
Numismatic coins sell at a premium to bars.
Slabbed coins sell at a premium to bars.
Counterfeiters are already making fake numismatic coins AND fake slabs. So having classic gold and/or slabbed gold is no guarantee of authenticity.
Now if those counterfeiters do begin in earnest, it's quite likely that gold buyers will want to perform scratch tests at a minimum. If the tungsten hypothesis turns out to be real and rampant, buyers may also want to do testing that is more invasive--maybe just a good, deep file, but perhaps drilling and testing. Don't laugh, an iron file or a simple power drill will do the job with little effort or expense.
So what happens to the value of your numismatic coins once they've been filed, scratched, or even drilled? A big chunk of the value just disappeared.
What happens to the value of your slabbed bullion coins if the slab has to be cracked open and then the coin is scratched and drilled? A big chunk of your premium just disappeared.
You know what happens to the value of your bar if it's scratched or drilled? Nothing. It's a bar.
So which is better?
--Severian the Lame
Coins will always be more liquid than bars. The market for coins will always be larger. The premium for coins will be larger also.
Coins can be verified quickly by dimensions weight and can't be copied with cheap metals. Tungsten filled coins? Very unlikely due to their size.
I'd stick with coins or name brand, small bars (< 2oz) with certs.
Me? I never buy bars and have never had a problem finding eager buyers for my gold coins.
<< <i>
Coins can be verified quickly by dimensions weight and can't be copied with cheap metals. Tungsten filled coins? Very unlikely due to their size.
>>
People throughout history have fallen victim to that kind of belief. Go back to the US Coin forum and do a search on "does this gold coin look legit" or "does this slab look questionable".
Nobody is going to make a tungsten filled coin. But they can crank out millions of tungsten coins and electroplate them, or HGE them.
These rings are all die-stamped tungsten. You think they couldn't do the same with a maple leaf?
I'm know I'm playing devil's advocate. But I do believe it's wrong to dismiss the notion that ANY gold might have to be subject to invasive testing at some point in the near future. Coins won't be exempt by any means.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>Nobody is going to make a tungsten filled coin. But they can crank out millions of tungsten coins and electroplate them, or HGE them. >>
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Oh my God! They're everywhere now!
All my Double Eagles, though dimensionally perfect and weighing spot on with full details are tungsten!
I better sell them for $2,000/ea. before somebody realizes the world is filled with tungsten coins worth $2 each and selling for $2K.
You better find an MSNBC forum to post this stuff.
As an ex electroplater I can tell you now it's not even close to the look of US gold coins and you'd have to be a rookie to fall for it. On the other hand it takes quite the skill to memic a gold coin that would be accepted and at this point most coins that are fake aren't you common dates bullion coins. For every fake coin you'll find you find tons of jewelery or bars that have been messed with or are just posers. Like I said you put your money where you want but the 80's $5 comms are right at spot and the TPG graded coins are fairly safe too altough a few fake holders are showing up. Lord help me if I got stuck with a lot of bullion to hold a couple decades like the 80's. That's what I perfer to collect and the rest will take care of itself. Your classic gold coins did very well and were priced well above gold in 79/80. JMO
The high quality counterfeit coins China is cranking out now fool experts in their series, and they admit it. What will it be like 5 years from now? 10 years from now?
I went to eBay just now and grabbed the first "copy" gold coin I found. See the word "copy" below her foot on the obverse?
This is a $2 coin--on eBay.
Imagine that coin, or the 2nd or 3rd generation of that coin, or the $10 or $20 version, in a well done fake PCGS slab--without the word "copy" on it, which is how most of them are made now.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>Weiss, is that coin struck in Tungsten? From what i've read, Tungsten is incredibally hard (about 3 times as hard as gold) and if you consider that it takes well over 40 tons of pressure to strike a gold eagle, imagine how that translates to Tungsten! You can see that this is not a basement type of project. >>
I doubt it, gecko. But if it's slabbed, would it matter?
No, you'd just crack it out and weigh it. Aha! That's the point, ini't?
What good is having slabbed bullion if you have to crack it to be sure it's legit?
Again, I'm just trying to reiterate that a blanket dismissal of gold bars in favor of coins isn't logical, it's knee-jerk.
The bad guys are counting on that.
Gold isn't valuable because it's in a round form with a pretty design on it. It's valuable because it's gold. You lose sight of that truth at your peril.
--Severian the Lame
The speed of sound in Tungsten is approx 60% higher than that of gold. That difference would be easily detectable with an ultrasonic probe/scanner, etc. Hospitals use them. Construction and repair companies use them all the time in NDT of certified piping/boiler tubes. In the same reasoning thermal conductivities are far different and a gold bullion coin placed in the fridge alongside a Tungsten coin would warm up much faster once brought into ambient air. One could probably do the same thing with frequencies when the coin or bar is rung. The gold coin tone should be quite different. I would also think that a fairly accurate ohm meter should be able to pick up the resistivity difference between Tungsten and Gold. Once you've done the test on a good piece of bullion/coin, then you merely need to compare in the future against suspect pieces.
I don't know if there is a metal out there that can be swapped with gold that would weigh the same and still have a comparable sound velocity. Then you also have to toss in the electrical and thermal conductivity. I think we'll be able to stay ahead of the crooks without cutting into our coins. But when gold is much higher I don't think it's going to matter whether your AGE is PCGS MS69 or raw with a slight mark/stain from being tested. The important thing is that it will be 1 oz of gold. The one thing that can't be faked are the laws of physics.
roadrunner
I had to chime in here...the concept of a "basement project" in China is extremely common. I work for a spectrophotometry company (consumer side), and make regular trips there. I've seen precision optical work done, quite frankly, in a basement shop, or un-windowed shop, or worse. And I'm in a much more developed part of China-Suzhou. It astounds me the type of equipment I can find in back alleys and in buildings that appear to have no business producing anything precision or high-quality.
Many of the vendors we use got their start as a basement type shop; it's not too much of a stretch for me to believe a 40-ton or even 100-ton or 300-ton press could be found in someone's basement. If there are any laws restricting such equipment, it can be skirted around (or local enforcers bought off).
I don't want to be a doom-and-gloomer, but my opinion is great care should be exercised, especially now that gold and silver are getting hot...very tempting for folks over there. Heck, look at DVDs: I can go over and 7 out of 10 DVDs are "good enough" duplications that I can find literally any movie I want...for less than $1/DVD.
And forget about "government crackdowns." All they do is cause the counterfeiters to relocate...sometimes blocks or streets away. The government makes a great show about how they are enforcing copyright or knockoff laws, but it's all window dressing, as far as I'm concerned. I can get Coach bags for $20 if I wanted to...and very few people can tell the difference.
Pretty scary stuff...
That was probably the work of one person. Before computers, before international trade with a country of a billion people who apparently take pride in duping us, both literally and figuratively. And at a time when gold was worth $35 an ounce.
Buy what you want. I have about an equal amount of bars and coins. But I always buy with an understanding that at some point in the future, my gold *might* have to be tested--and tested in an invasive manner as it has been for thousands of years. If you're not willing to accept that is a legitimate possibility or even a probability, you're the exact type of person the counterfeiters are hoping to find. Again, it's not the round form and pretty design. It's the content that matters.
--Severian the Lame
I've bought all of my gold from the US Mint and I have to trust that they aren't selling me tungsten.
<< <i>...the omega St. Gaudens counterfeiter made thousands of fake $20 St. Gaudens coins almost 40 years ago... >>
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And they were made of Gold!
If a buyer knows nothing about gold AND knows nothing about coins, then fake gold coins are a threat. These people shouldn't be buying gold unless it's from Bernie Madoff.
The Fisch does nothing but verify size and weight. Fisch Website This is fine for raw gold coins.
Anyone who's handled gold coins knows what to expect regarding appearance. As far as slabs go, there are known weights for slabs. Sure a counterweight could be put in a white NGC slab; then you actually have to look at the coin and perhaps verify the integrity of the slab.
A little common sense goes a long way.
So the bomb drops. The sky falls. The government collapses. The dollar is history and not even good enough to be used in a pit latrine. Whatever your fantasy scenario happens to be (and make no mistake, it is a fantasy - we're all just a special kind of perv), it happens. You've managed to survive the initial contact of feces to fan, but now you need to put all this wealth you've stored to work in the real world. What do you need? Odds are it will be food, fuel, ammo or medical attention. No worries! You've got a big ol' donkey pile of gold (coins, bars or lollipops I care not). OK.
Food - after searching about for a while you find a somebody crazy enough to part with a stash of canned goods and dried beans/rice sufficient to tide you and yours over for a few weeks. A grocery bill that might come to (for the sake of argument) $300 at today's prices. Even with the inflation of the apocalyptic black market the cost might only be $600 of today's dollars. I hope you have plenty of 1/10th oz eagles, because it definitely isn't worth a Krugerand. And this is the largest food deal you were able to secure.
Fuel - you're lucky to fill a five gallon red cap let alone a tank large enough to equal your Philharmonic.
Ammo - What's a box of shells really worth when your life is on the line? I'm still not ponying up gold for 19 loose remingtons just because that's all anyone has.
Medical attention - OK, here you've got me. If somebody has the facilities and security to provide you with real medical care they probably deserve your common date saint.
My point? Silver is the metal of the apocalypse. 90% American coins to be specific. Widely recognizable, easily negotiable and worth little enough to actually not screw you on fruit and nuts transactions. Hell, even 40% and war nickels have their place in the true doomsday hoard.
There are more possibilities than either/or. If something happens, it might fall somewhere between peace and harmony...or apocalypse.
There have been dozens of instances in the last few decades, and thousands throughout history, where currency was devalued, hyperinflation set in, governments collapsed, revolutions happened. But society didn't end. Why expect just that scenario, then? Gold has been and probably would be useful in just about any scenario short of the end of the world.
What if you already have food, clothing, shelter, weapons and ammo. Maybe a small farm, good fuel stores. And you make more than minimum wage. You want to store 10% of your net worth in silver if you're worth a million dollars, maybe two? Where are you going to hide 150,000
Also: Right now gold is valued at ~63:1 over silver. That's several pounds of silver for every ounce of gold.
10 1-ounce coins stacked is about the size of an ice cube. You can hide it on your person quite easily.
You ever try to smuggle 50 pounds of metal in your shoe or up your...skirt? You need to get out of a "zone", for lack of a better word. That coyote going to take the equivalent of a day's pay to do it, or is he going to take the equivalent of a couple month's pay to do it? He'll know you've got 50 pounds of silver on you, might he decide you're better off dead? But would he have any way of knowing you've got 3 eagles in your hat band and 5 in each boot?
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>...doomsaying mentality thinks that gold will be the best practical liquid wealth of the apocalypse... >>
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I'm not expecting a doomsday or apocalypse in my lifetime (the next 30 years).
I do like gold as a hedge against inflation, as a store of wealth and protection from the rapidly devaluing U$D. I like silver too, but do not romance it the way I do gold. Gold has become an addiction for me really and has made me some good money the last couple of years.
I traded about $300 face in 90% junk last fall (Sept. '08) to a board member here for 3.35 ozs in GAE proofs. I'm glad I did. That $300 box of silver weighed almost 20 pounds and would be worth $4K today. I recently sold those proofs for $6K. Just an example. I got bammed after that trade for an Obama comment and lurked for a few months before signing up again but was still buying gold elsewhere.
Silver has run up nicely this fall and should head over $20 soon. Gold should hit $1300 by Christmas but nobody knows. $1500 next year for a peak seems realistic though.
Back to the OP: I'd love to pick up a 100g gold bar sometime but it won't be this year! I do prefer coins but will never be able to afford a Quintuple Eagle!
I'll readily concede that gold is an excellent hedge and a very practical way to store wealth. Not being a man of means I have little concern for all of that. I will say that if there was a SHTF scenario and you found yourself faced with the problem of how to conceal/transport your PMs you probably should have spent your money on wiser things in more placid times - like acreage in the unpopulated hinterlands of Canada and the necessities to make a go of it there.
Relevant to the OP of this thread (my apologies for the divergence), what is currently the most universally acceptable form of gold or assayer thereof? What would be the ideal trade unit above all others if liquidity were your primary concern? I understand that anything and everything can (and with rising prices eventually will) be counterfeited, but what form of bullion is likely to be most trusted in dire circumstances? I know that I am partial (in silver, of course) to anything clearly marked with fineness, weight and an issuing government that doesn't automatically inspire doubt.
Most intelligent post in this thread!