Saturday 11/14 ... I turn into a Double Nickel* time to put my cards on the table* --- RESULTS IN &a

SeaEagleCoins · November 10, 2009 8:09AM

**** WARNING**** Long Post and NO PICS (if you don't like to read and need to see pics to enjoy a post... please back out of this thread now... otherwise, feel free to proceed

)

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OK... results are in... I do not have the 30 Economy coins in hand... grades just posted this morning... What I am confused by is... how can I be so "right on" with some coins... and at such odds with their graders on others... all within the same series...???

Also... based on past experience... I know that today's bodybagged coin could be tommorrows slabbed coin... and visa-versa ...

So... I do not know what to think... I'll take a close look at the 30 coins when they return and see if I agree with them upon review... then I will decide whether to renew my membership or not ( or maybe I should shoot for the Dealer Membership and they might treat me better

)

Timing is everything... my membership expires on 12/21 ... LOL

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I thought about posting this for a while and decided to go ahead and “just do it”…

After a few threads here by rld/Bill, sharing his grading results here at PCGS, I got to thinking (always a dangerous thing

)

He had submitted a large number of Barber Halves and Dimes along with a Seated Half… he had gotten many from me or I had helped him choose them to buy and/or grade. The ones I was involved with all came back either at the grade I had assigned or better. (I still don’t agree with the higher grades but what do I know?

)…

Then I reflected back on the number of coins I have sold that came back graded at the grade I sold them at or better… a few circ Buffalos to one collector… a toned Washington 25c that I sold as a 64+ that came back as a 66 … an 84-CC Morgan that I sold as a 62PL came back a 62PL… a nicely toned Bust 50c that I sold as a 45 came back a 45...

The only “reject” was another very pretty Bust 50c with great target blue/pink toning that came back as “Questionable Color” … that was to another forum member here… he asked me to buy it back, which I did… however, I told him that in the future he should not expect a grading guarantee from me… only a guarantee of authenticity…

Anyway… after reflecting on all this, I looked back over my own grading results… and they have been less than stellar, to say the least… far too many grades lower than my assigned grade… a few that came back better but nowhere near enough to outweigh the others… too many cases of coins that had been cracked out in the past for albums, only to BB or downgrade… or coins that BB only to holder on future submissions…

I had gotten enough of a “bad taste” from my experiences that I was ready to call it quits, in terms of submitting coins anymore… and was going to just let my membership lapse…

Bill convinced me to try it once again… my Plat Membership expires in December and I decided to go thru my coins and pick out some of the “better” ones… that I feel “should” grade while also adding some “value“ to the coins… and I even asked Bill to come over and go thru them with me… it is now narrowed down to 36 coins… 30 at the Economy level… 5 at the Regular level and 1 for the CC Quarterly Special.

(Frankly, my desire to renew my membership rests on the results of this submission…)

My plan is to bring the coins to Baltimore on Saturday… it is my “double nickel” Birthday… 36 is the Hebrew number Chai and Chai is also Hebrew for Life… soooooo….. Double Chai on my Double Nickel Birthday… seems appropriate…

and for the record, the number 36 just worked out that way… I did not know that was the number of coins in the submission until I was done writing it up… LOL

So here is the list of coins, along with “my“ grades… PCGS grades follow... along with a few comments ...

Economy

1913 Type One 5c …. MS65+ ... PCGS says 65
1917 Type Two SLQ …. AU50+ ... PCGS says 58
1919 Walker 50c …. VF30 ... PCGS says 94/Altered Surfaces
1926 Oregon 50c …. MS65 ... PCGS says 66
1898-O Barber 10c …. AU50 ... PCGS says 45
1914-D Barber 10c …. MS63 ... PCGS says 94/Altered Surfaces
1892-O Barber 25c …. MS62 ... PCGS says 92/Cleaned
1899 Barber 25c …. AU58 ... PCGS says 53
1904-O Barber 25c …. VF25 ... PCGS says 25
1906 Barber 25c …. AU58 ... PCGS says 58
1911-D Barber 25c …. F15+ ... PCGS says 20
1913 Barber 25c …. VF25+ ... PCGS says 20
1914 Barber 25c …. AU55 ... PCGS says 91/Questionable Color (I HATE that... I paid for an opinion, not a "we don't know")
1915-D Barber 25c …. AU55+ (two of them) ... PCGS says 45 on one and 53 on the other
1892 Barber 50c …. AU55 ... PCGS says 94/Altered Surfaces
1894-S Barber 50c …. VF25 ... PCGS says 25
1894-S Barber 50c …. AU58 ... PCGS says 98/Damage/Tooling
1899 Barber 50c …. AU53+ ... PCGS says 50
1899-O Barber 50c …. AU53+ ... PCGS says 94/Altered Surfaces
1900 Barber 50c …. AU50+ ... PCGS says 40
1902 Barber 50c …. VF30+ ... PCGS says 30
1908-D Barber 50c …. AU55+ ... PCGS says 55
1911 Barber 50c …. VF35+ ... PCGS says 35
1912-S Barber 50c …. EF40 ... PCGS says 40
1913-S Barber 50c …. VF30+ ... PCGS says 30
1914 Barber 50c …. VG10 ... PCGS says 8
1883 Hawaii 10c …. VF20+ ... PCGS says 30
1883 Hawaii 10c …. AU50 ... PCGS says 40
1883 Hawaii 25c …. AU50+ ... PCGS says 50 (what annoys me most is the 50c piece below came from same set and has same look???)

Regular

1913-S Type Two 5c …. AU50+ ... PCGS says 94/Altered Surfaces ... I do have this coin back and have to admit "what was I thinking?" LOL
1919-S SLQ …. EF40 ... PCGS says 97/Environmental Damage ... ditto to what I said about the 13-S T2 5c
1921 SLQ …. F12+ ... PCGS says 12
1921-S Walker …. VF20 ... PCGS says 12 ... ok, maybe not a 20 but I'll meet ya in the middle at 15... OK?

1883 Hawaii 50c …. AU53+ ... PCGS says 91/Questionable Color... out of all the results, this one gets me mad... really...

CC Quarterly Special

1877-CC Trade $1 …. EF40 ... PCGS says 35

So that about does it… please wish me “luck”… though luck should have nothing to do with it.

For the record… I am not a kool aid drinker… never even liked it much as a kid… the market place demands slabbed coins and PCGS slabbed coins seem to get the most respect. I’ve heard of folks who won’t even look at a coin unless it is in a PCGS holder… imagine that…

We will revisit this when the results come rolling in…hopefully it will be "all in" by Xmas…

edit for spelling...of course ...

mkman123 · November 10, 2009 8:14AM

goodluck for a patient dealer!

airplanenut · November 10, 2009 8:16AM

L'chaim... may you be zoche to receive the grades you hope for.

...there are two words I never figured would find their way into a coin post...

SeaEagleCoins · November 10, 2009 9:14AM

<< L'chaim... may you be zoche to receive the grades you hope for.

...there are two words I never figured would find their way into a coin post... >>

... and a big-hearted Shalom to you, Jeremy!!

Connecticoin · November 10, 2009 9:43AM

Good Luck!

rld14 · November 10, 2009 1:58PM

I am waiting the results with baited breath! I think that we found some really neat stuff to submit and I'll say this, I am far from an experienced submitter, but Larry really seems to hit PCGS grades on the head, and ya know what... I can't wait to see the results!

SeaEagleCoins · November 10, 2009 11:01PM

<< I am waiting the results with baited breath! ... I can't wait to see the results! >>

I suggest you be careful with that "baited breath" stuff... you could end up with "Hook in Mouth Disease"

ricko · November 11, 2009 12:42AM

I have learned to have great respect for your grading skills, and expect you will be quite close when the results are complete. Keep in mind, as I have said before, lacking repeatable, scientific criteria for grading, reduces the process to an educated guess. Sure, there are enough guidelines to at least give some consistancy to those who pursue the skill. However, there is still no guarantee that one skilled grader will see the object the same way another will. Plus, TPG's do not spend a lot of time studying coins (their expertise somewhat accounts for this, but the drive for profit - grading as many as possible, as quickly as possible - will account for some variance. I wish you well, it is an interesting experiment and, having respect for your skill, I will be watching for the results. Cheers, RickO

SeaEagleCoins · November 18, 2009 2:47AM

Just a little update...

Dropped off the coins on Saturday 11/14 in Baltimore... they just entered the submissions into the system this morning 11/18... also told that there were well over 10,000 coins submitted in Baltimore...

...and now the long, torturous, grinding and often frustrating W...A...I...T...

I wonder how many times a day I'm gonna check the submission page...

dsessom · November 18, 2009 3:14AM

I'm interested in your 1917 SLQ, if you plan on selling it. After seeing a few on the post I made yesterday about Doug B.'s 1917, I sure would love to get one.

Good luck on your submissions! I know it's a L O N G and painful process!

Best regards,

rld14 · November 18, 2009 3:30AM

<< I'm interested in your 1917 SLQ, if you plan on selling it. After seeing a few on the post I made yesterday about Doug B.'s 1917, I sure would love to get one.

Good luck on your submissions! I know it's a L O N G and painful process!

Best regards, >>

I saw the coin in hand, it's very very nice.

Larry, how come YOUR submissions show up from Saturday and I turned mine in on Friday and they don't show? FML no love from PCGS for Mr Ohh Yeah huh?

ocon4008 · November 18, 2009 7:55AM

<>

Good luck. I only check mine three or four times..............

an hour

SeaEagleCoins · December 16, 2009 3:35AM

'cause the results are in ...

MikeInFL · December 16, 2009 4:10AM

First off, I'm sorry that you're confused/frustrated, and I know exactly how you feel. It is the coin game we're talking about, though....

<< What I am confused by is... how can I be so "right on" with some coins... and at such odds with their graders on others... all within the same series...??? >>

If I'm counting correctly, you got 4 out of 35 coins' grades dead on correct. I mean no disrespect, but it appears you are not good at predicting PCGS grading at all (or PCGS' grading is not consistent). Without any evidence one way or the other (i.e. pics), I suspect both are in play, but the former is more likely the cause than the latter....Mike

rld14 · December 16, 2009 4:16AM

<< 1913 Type One 5c …. MS65+ ... PCGS says 65
1917 Type Two SLQ …. AU50+ ... PCGS says 58
1919 Walker 50c …. VF30 ... PCGS says 94/Altered Surfaces
1926 Oregon 50c …. MS65 ... PCGS says 66
1898-O Barber 10c …. AU50 ... PCGS says 45
1914-D Barber 10c …. MS63 ... PCGS says 94/Altered Surfaces
1892-O Barber 25c …. MS62 ... PCGS says 92/Cleaned
1899 Barber 25c …. AU58 ... PCGS says 53
1904-O Barber 25c …. VF25 ... PCGS says 25
1906 Barber 25c …. AU58 ... PCGS says 58
1911-D Barber 25c …. F15+ ... PCGS says 20
1913 Barber 25c …. VF25+ ... PCGS says 20
1914 Barber 25c …. AU55 ... PCGS says 91/Questionable Color (I HATE that... I paid for an opinion, not a "we don't know")
1915-D Barber 25c …. AU55+ (two of them) ... PCGS says 45 on one and 53 on the other
1892 Barber 50c …. AU55 ... PCGS says 94/Altered Surfaces
1894-S Barber 50c …. VF25 ... PCGS says 25
1894-S Barber 50c …. AU58 ... PCGS says 98/Damage/Tooling
1899 Barber 50c …. AU53+ ... PCGS says 50
1899-O Barber 50c …. AU53+ ... PCGS says 94/Altered Surfaces
1900 Barber 50c …. AU50+ ... PCGS says 40
1902 Barber 50c …. VF30+ ... PCGS says 30
1908-D Barber 50c …. AU55+ ... PCGS says 55
1911 Barber 50c …. VF35+ ... PCGS says 35
1912-S Barber 50c …. EF40 ... PCGS says 40
1913-S Barber 50c …. VF30+ ... PCGS says 30
1914 Barber 50c …. VG10 ... PCGS says 8
1883 Hawaii 10c …. VF20+ ... PCGS says 30
1883 Hawaii 10c …. AU50 ... PCGS says 40
1883 Hawaii 25c …. AU50+ ... PCGS says 50 (what annoys me most is the 50c piece below came from same set and has same look???) >>

Well I just got grades posted yesterday for a REGULAR submission that they have had since the 18th.... so I am still waiting on my 25 coin economy submission.

I think you actually did well overall, the hawaiian stuff I didn't look at BC i just don't know it. Personally I think you did quite well, looks like as usual you're really in line with their grades.

Or am I nuts? there's a couple I don't agree with, but I've had a number of pricier Barber Halves come back as 15s when I swore they would hit 20.

rld14 · December 16, 2009 4:27AM

<< First off, I'm sorry that you're confused/frustrated, and I know exactly how you feel. It is the coin game we're talking about, though....

<< What I am confused by is... how can I be so "right on" with some coins... and at such odds with their graders on others... all within the same series...??? >>

If I'm counting correctly, you got 4 out of 35 coins' grades dead on correct. I mean no disrespect, but it appears you are not good at predicting PCGS grading at all (or PCGS' grading is not consistent). Without any evidence one way or the other (i.e. pics), I suspect both are in play, but the former is more likely the cause than the latter....Mike >>

Mike,

Looks like 16 out of 29 were either on, close enough to not make a real difference, or an upgrade above what Larry said.

Only looks like 2 coins were that far off from Larry's grades, and that Barber Half is NOT a 40, I think they are way off on that coin. I've "made" about 25 raw mid grade Barber Halves lately... I'm getting kinda good at this

SeaEagleCoins · December 16, 2009 4:38AM

<< First off, I'm sorry that you're confused/frustrated, and I know exactly how you feel. It is the coin game we're talking about, though....

<< What I am confused by is... how can I be so "right on" with some coins... and at such odds with their graders on others... all within the same series...??? >>

If I'm counting correctly, you got 4 out of 35 coins' grades dead on correct. I mean no disrespect, but it appears you are not good at predicting PCGS grading at all (or PCGS' grading is not consistent). Without any evidence one way or the other (i.e. pics), I suspect both are in play, but the former is more likely the cause than the latter....Mike >>

Actually, Mike... out of 36 coins, I got 11 spot on (on that day that they were graded)... 11.. I overgraded (according to PCGS on a particular day at a particular time ... and 4 I undergraded... and 10 bagged (out of which at least a few would probably holder on another try)...

Not bad... but am I to believe that I am the inconsistant one? Please pass the kool aid while I contemplate this...

MikeInFL · December 16, 2009 4:41AM

I hear you, but I don't consider a guess of "40+" and a grade of "40" to be "dead on".

Said slightly differently, if you were so sure, why add the "+"?

Said in a slightly different way, and presuming PCGS is inconsistent, how can anyone be consistent in predicting inconsistency (would that make them consistently inconsistent?

).

And again, I'm not putting all the inconsistency blame on you (to the contrary, clearly PCGS has some inconsistencies as well), but again, if you're so good at predicting grades "dead on', why did you only get 4 "dead on" right?

Respectfully...Mike (who thinks there's more than enough inconsistency to go around, but it is more likely that you are more inconsistent than PCGS based on what I'm seeing in this thread, and I'm no Kool-Aid drinker)

SeaEagleCoins · December 16, 2009 4:51AM

<< I hear you, but I don't consider a guess of "40+" and a grade of "40" to be "dead on".

Said slightly differently, if you were so sure, why add the "+"?

And again, I'm not putting all the inconsistency blame on you (to the contrary, clearly PCGS has some inconsistencies as well), but again, if you're so good at predicting grades "dead on', why did you only get 4 "dead on" right?

Respectfully...Mike (who thinks there's more than enough inconsistency to go around, but it is more likely that you are more inconsistent than PCGS based on what I'm seeing in this thread) >>

Mike... I guess I should clarify... when I use a "+" sign... it means strong for the grade... but when I sell raw, I sell at the conservative level.

So if I say 40+... it means I am fully confidant that this is a strong 40... kinda like my own "sticker" or "seal"

At the end of the day... YES... grading is subjective... subject to change... and never precise... it is an opinion... and like something else we all have in common... everybody has (at least) one LOL... and sometimes they can be really funky ...

As I said in another thread recently...

Grading is easy... Grading at a level that others will agree with is where all the trouble can start...

MikeInFL · December 16, 2009 5:00AM

Aha, I understand better now. Thanks for the clarification.

rld14 · December 16, 2009 5:00AM

<< I hear you, but I don't consider a guess of "40+" and a grade of "40" to be "dead on".

Said slightly differently, if you were so sure, why add the "+"?

Said in a slightly different way, and presuming PCGS is inconsistent, how can anyone be consistent in predicting inconsistency (would that make them consistently inconsistent?

).

And again, I'm not putting all the inconsistency blame on you (to the contrary, clearly PCGS has some inconsistencies as well), but again, if you're so good at predicting grades "dead on', why did you only get 4 "dead on" right?

Respectfully...Mike (who thinks there's more than enough inconsistency to go around, but it is more likely that you are more inconsistent than PCGS based on what I'm seeing in this thread, and I'm no Kool-Aid drinker) >>

Wait till I start a thread about a particular 38-D Walking Liberty Half that I am playing with.... So far it's made...

Genuine Cleaned
Genuine Altered Surfaces
F15
VF20
VF25

This is the same coin.

This is since, oh... May.

A dealer I know has been sending it in with his submissions for me. As soon as it comes back it gets cracked out and goes back in a flip and goes right back out again.

So the thing is, PCGS isn't perfect, but IMO they are generally right on the money and I trust their grades above and beyond any other grading service by a long shot. I have VF20 Barber Halves that I would call F12, and some I would call VF30. That's why what's an F15 one day is a VF20 the next and a VF25 the next.

Grading is still an art, and not a science. I've submitted over 40 Mid Grade Barber Coins since September, and I don't always agree with PCGS, but I see FAR more dramatically undergraded or overgraded coins in ANACS and NGC holders.

rld14 · December 16, 2009 5:34AM

Mike,

I think I've probably "made" close to 20 Raw coins that I have bought from Larry, and crossed a couple I have bought from him and have another 12 to submit that I bought from him and have about, I dunno, another 10-12 or so that I bought from him that I am waiting for grades on.
It's been my experience from buying coins from Larry that if he calls a coin a VF35+ it's going to come back a 35 and has a real good shot at a 40.

I bought 2 raw Seated Halves from him as VF35+ coins, an 1879 and an 1842 Medium date. Both are now in XF40 holders.

oops.. didnt see he posted about it.

Bill

MikeInFL · December 16, 2009 5:36AM

<< Wait till I start a thread about a particular 38-D Walking Liberty Half that I am playing with.... So far it's made...

Genuine Cleaned
Genuine Altered Surfaces
F15
VF20
VF25

This is the same coin. >>

That should be a very interesting thread! Please do post it.

MikeInFL · December 16, 2009 5:37AM

<< Mike,

I think I've probably "made" close to 20 Raw coins that I have bought from Larry, and crossed a couple I have bought from him and have another 12 to submit that I bought from him and have about, I dunno, another 10-12 or so that I bought from him that I am waiting for grades on.
It's been my experience from buying coins from Larry that if he calls a coin a VF35+ it's going to come back a 35 and has a real good shot at a 40.

I bought 2 raw Seated Halves from him as VF35+ coins, an 1879 and an 1842 Medium date. Both are now in XF40 holders.

oops.. didnt see he posted about it.

Bill >>

No worries.

FWIW, I was not questioning his honesty or grading accuracy, just questioning his results versus what he said above, and I was confused by what he meant by "+".

But I get it now, so thanks to you both for the clarification...Mike

SeaEagleCoins · December 16, 2009 8:55AM

one time for the night crew... and then off to where ever no-longer-wanted threads go...

rld14 · December 16, 2009 9:07AM

<< 

<< Mike,

I think I've probably "made" close to 20 Raw coins that I have bought from Larry, and crossed a couple I have bought from him and have another 12 to submit that I bought from him and have about, I dunno, another 10-12 or so that I bought from him that I am waiting for grades on.
It's been my experience from buying coins from Larry that if he calls a coin a VF35+ it's going to come back a 35 and has a real good shot at a 40.

I bought 2 raw Seated Halves from him as VF35+ coins, an 1879 and an 1842 Medium date. Both are now in XF40 holders.

oops.. didnt see he posted about it.

Bill >>

No worries.

FWIW, I was not questioning his honesty or grading accuracy, just questioning his results versus what he said above, and I was confused by what he meant by "+".

But I get it now, so thanks to you both for the clarification...Mike >>

Mike,

I know

FWIW we hung out for an evening and looked through these coins, I'd say were we on agreement on them, and I usually seem to be able to really predict what PCGS will grade my coins. That one Barber that went 40 really bugs me, as it's SO much better than any 40 I have ever made, it's only a 50 IMO due to weakish luster.

Oh... the Walker in question is going to do the rounds at NGC next... when all is said and done I'll post the results, I'm curious to see if they catch it, and also if they catch my cleaned and doctored test coin.

FWIW, PCGS has caught it all 3 times I submitted it, which really impressed me.

ricko · December 17, 2009 4:00AM

Amazing Larry... not at all what I expected. I understand your confusion. As I have always said, the TPG that perfects computer grading will corner the market. Consistency and repeatability will give confidence to collectors and dealers alike. Cheers, RickO

Manorcourtman · December 17, 2009 4:31AM

You were obviously robbed

Seriously though, I also have had some real head scratchers lately. I think the graders have forgotten how to grade New Orleans issue Barbers. They've changed the standards imho. Sorry to hear about your results.......except for the good ones of course

Halfhunter06 · December 17, 2009 10:43AM

Our final thought should be a reminder...Grading is just an opinion. There have been times where I have found coins to be overgraded, undergraded,and not graded at all (Genuine) that boggles the mind. It shows that with a good eye a person can do very well..its just getting to that point is the tough part.

waterzooey · December 17, 2009 12:03PM

The issue on the concept that grading is an opinion; These opinions change lives, these opinions put food on the table for many people, These opinions impact billions of dollars that arespent and earned in this industry yearly- Within these opinions there MUST be some consistency- The very fact that a coin can be sent in 10 times and get 9 different grades ranging from Cleaned to altered surfaces to VF25 is a farce.

Now, I am going to try to tread lightly here because I have no desire to get bammed- The graders directly impact the bottom line of a publicly graded company... I am just saying.

I use PCGS because I know when/if I need to sell or decide to sell that they will generate the most revenue-

Saturday 11/14 ... I turn into a Double Nickel* time to put my cards on the table* --- RESULTS IN &a

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