Thank you Crabtree
stown
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in Sports Talk
Yes, you read that right. I'm thanking Crabtree for being the last unsigned draftee.
You're acting like a little beyatch and demanding more money than your slot dictates. Hey, it's a free country, do as you please. Want to sit out a season because you think more money will come your way next draft? Go for it, bro!
Want to go ahead, be reasonable, and sign with the 49ers? Probably lost a couple million and yeah I know, that sucks. But hey, at least you'll be on the field, right?
But that's not my point, Mr. Crabtree...
Regardless of what happens this year, next year, or if you have a successful career or not; you will forever be the poster child of rookie salary caps. When the NFL and PA restart negotiations on the upcoming CBA, rookies will get less guaranteed money. Hopefully they will call it the "Crabtree Rule" and you will forever be known as the straw that broke the camel's back.
/ but im not still bitter rant
You're acting like a little beyatch and demanding more money than your slot dictates. Hey, it's a free country, do as you please. Want to sit out a season because you think more money will come your way next draft? Go for it, bro!
Want to go ahead, be reasonable, and sign with the 49ers? Probably lost a couple million and yeah I know, that sucks. But hey, at least you'll be on the field, right?
But that's not my point, Mr. Crabtree...
Regardless of what happens this year, next year, or if you have a successful career or not; you will forever be the poster child of rookie salary caps. When the NFL and PA restart negotiations on the upcoming CBA, rookies will get less guaranteed money. Hopefully they will call it the "Crabtree Rule" and you will forever be known as the straw that broke the camel's back.
/ but im not still bitter rant
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
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Imagine if you had Crabtree's talent and had put up the stats that he did at TT, and then a real jackass like the owner of the Raiders comes in and picks some nobody WR from Maryland ahead of you. 0% of NFL analysts or fans thought Al's pick made sense. NFL GM's were making quotes "off the record" that the Raider's pick was one of the worst picks they'd seen in their career and partially b/c Crabtree was still on the board at that time. So, because the Raiders are run by an crazy people and don't draft according to talent or future potential, but instead base their pick solely on how fast someone runs the 40, does that make Crabtree somehow worth less? I don't think it does at all. And if I was Crabtree, I'd want more money than the nobody from Maryland too.
-Michael
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
Good for the 49'ers for not calling this kids bluff.
<< <i>Yes, Crabtree is acting like an idiot. But his poor choices are no more illogical than the idea of "slotting". NFL teams treat slotting like its an idea that Moses brought down from the mountain. Its not. What others guys get paid has nothing to do with what you get paid. You get paid X if you and your employer agree that you're worth X. Where other players are drafted should be a guide to what your $$ is, but not something written in stone or some silly rule that has to be followed.
Imagine if you had Crabtree's talent and had put up the stats that he did at TT, and then a real jackass like the owner of the Raiders comes in and picks some nobody WR from Maryland ahead of you. 0% of NFL analysts or fans thought Al's pick made sense. NFL GM's were making quotes "off the record" that the Raider's pick was one of the worst picks they'd seen in their career and partially b/c Crabtree was still on the board at that time. So, because the Raiders are run by an crazy people and don't draft according to talent or future potential, but instead base their pick solely on how fast someone runs the 40, does that make Crabtree somehow worth less? I don't think it does at all. And if I was Crabtree, I'd want more money than the nobody from Maryland too.
-Michael >>
Like it or not, a #10 pick doesn't get #7 money because that's how the system works. Don't forget that playing in the NFL is a privilege, not a right.
Same thing happened with Mario and Bush. Bush said that he was better than Mario, therefore should get more guaranteed money. Didn't happen then, ain't going to happen now.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The process by which college players sign their first pro contract is a deeply flawed system because it doesn't let free markets operate the way they were intended to operate. Imagine using the NFL's logic in other industries. Lets say a recent high school or college grad wants to be a police officer or a firefighter. Within 50 miles of his home, he can choose between 3-4 different city departments and 1-2 county departments. Each has their own distinct pay package with other perks etc. The point is that the kid is able to evaluate all of the offers and figure out which is best for him. Players entering the NFL draft are denied that right to choose. They are told which team they have the right to negotiate with and since its only 1 team they can negotiate with, all leverage is lost from the player's perspective. The NFL should operate like any other industry and let teams pay whatever they want to whoever they want and just let the players decide which team is offering the best package, then let the chips fall where they may.
The draft itself is pointless, other than to protect bad teams with bad management who can't compete in a fair environment with better run organizations.
-Michael
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
The process by which college players sign their first pro contract is a deeply flawed system because it doesn't let free markets operate the way they were intended to operate. Imagine using the NFL's logic in other industries. Lets say a recent high school or college grad wants to be a police officer or a firefighter. Within 50 miles of his home, he can choose between 3-4 different city departments and 1-2 county departments. Each has their own distinct pay package with other perks etc. The point is that the kid is able to evaluate all of the offers and figure out which is best for him. Players entering the NFL draft are denied that right to choose. They are told which team they have the right to negotiate with and since its only 1 team they can negotiate with, all leverage is lost from the player's perspective. The NFL should operate like any other industry and let teams pay whatever they want to whoever they want and just let the players decide which team is offering the best package, then let the chips fall where they may.
The draft itself is pointless, other than to protect bad teams with bad management who can't compete in a fair environment with better run organizations.
-Michael
I strongly disagree with this argument. The system is in place to ensure competitiveness and greatly benefits all players from all teams in the long run. One of the reasons the NFL product is so successful and that football has become the nation's most popular sport is directly related to these rules and regulations that are already in place.
All players know what to expect going in, and should not act insulted or dismayed when the reality of their situation plays out. Do we really need guys coming out college as free agents already? If a player is as good as advertised, he will certainly have his opportunity to reap the benefits of free agency. You cannot compare the NFL to civil job opportunities for the general public. Such an analogy is completely inappropriate.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>You cannot compare the NFL to civil job opportunities for the general public. Such an analogy is completely inappropriate. >>
I'm not comparing the NFL to civil job opportunities, I'm comparing the NFL to every other industry in this country. The drafting process that professional sports league's utilize is completely different than ALL other industries. Why don't you tell me another industry in the US whereby a person is denied the right to choose which company they wish to work for in their specialized field? Once you become a free agent, its fine. All I'm talking about is the process by which players sign their first contract.
As to your other comment about how great the NFL is, no one is denying the NFL is great. But the draft has NOTHING to do with why its great.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
The reason players agree to this is because, let me empasize THEY GET PAID A HUGE FREAKING LOT OF MONEY!!!!!!!!!! It doesn't have to be a free market, that doesn't really work see baseball for how teams don't draft players they need due to the huge signing bonuses wanted by their agents. If a player doesn't like it they can play in the CFL or go to work at Hardee's.
Also basing you argument that Heyward Bey was a bad signing is harder and harder as he is playing at a pretty competent level right now, he can't control his QB sucks.
If you want to point at a the #1 case for being drafted way below his real potential was Aaron Rodgers. He just was in a draft were teams weren't really wanting QBs.
Exactly...the NFL has its rules and regulations and players are free to abide by them or find other means of gainful employment. Same as any oither "private" industry. You abide by the corporate policies in place or you go elsewhere. My bet is that most college football athletes think the system in place is quite beneficial to all parties involved. For every greedy player like Crabtree, there are others who work hard and reap their benefits over the course of their career just fine, thank you very much. To advocate for a draft policy where collerge players can negotiate and sign with whomever they want is not only not practical under the current cap guidelines, but sheer lunacy for long term league viabillity, IMO. The bottom line here is that the NFL has done an outstanding job at developing and marketing its product, and players are making a LOT of money, so why would you want to make radical changes (and your suggestion of a free market draft can be considered nothing short of a RADICASL change) because of some overhyped greedy player like Crabtree who hasn't even played a down in the NFL.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>but that still doesn't make it right. >>
As I said, plaing in the NFL is a privilege, not a right.
It's their rules, like them or not. If a player doesn't like them, no one is stopping him from finding work elsewhere.
<< <i>If he goes back in the draft next year, he will last until at least the second round maybe even the third. That means he will get 2nd or 3rd round draft money instead of 1st round and already lost a year of 1st round draft pick pay. >>
I disagree. He will get big money when he signs. Holding out may cost him, but he will get 1st round money when he signs.
<< <i>0% of NFL analysts or fans thought Al's pick made sense >>
But NFL analysts and fans are not the ones signing the checks. Among the people who write the checks, the consensus was Crabtree was only the 10th best player in the draft
Any system a sports league uses to assign talent will have flaws. The NFL system is probably among the best. Crabtree could have signed a one year deal for perhaps less than he thinks he is worth, then go into the open market next year, rather than being stuck going through the same draft process he hates so much. Ask recent highschool or college graduates if they are paid what they are worth and the vast majority will say no
<< <i>I disagree. He will get big money when he signs. Holding out may cost him, but he will get 1st round money when he signs. >>
His own agent told him to sign because he would get a lot less next year if he went back in the draft.
I see Mike Williams (USC) all over again, and teams won't make that mistake twice (although I will put nothing by the Lions or Al Davis). Crabtree won't even sniff the Top 10 next year, and will probably be drafted late first round. I can't wait to see that diva squirm in the green room waiting for his name to be called.
So I guess my favorite line so far is the one about- "If they don't like it, they can go work at Hardees." You're actually supporting my argument when you say that. Since rookies can only negotiate with 1 team, if they can't come to terms, the player isn't allowed to work in their chosen profession, NFL football. Salaries aside, imagine if your profession operated like that and how you'd feel? If you and your boss couldn't agree to terms, I guess you could go work at Hardees too.
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Even if it is flawed (which I disagree with), what other system could ever work, while still maintating competitve balance in the league?
<< <i>The NFL, like MLB and the NBA, give owners the leverage in players' first few years, and the player gets the leverage in his second contract after he has proven himself. What is so unfair about that?
Even if it is flawed (which I disagree with), what other system could ever work, while still maintating competitve balance in the league? >>
Everyone should be able to negotiate with whomever they want and they should have that right from day 1, just like you and I have that right in our jobs. If you take away the draft, then that is accomplished. While I agree that maintaining competitiveness is a huge priority and should be addressed, perhaps there is a better way it could be accomplished. The free markets that guide all of our other industries would say that whichever team needed the best college players would pay the most for them. That in and of itself would keep the league competitve. If you're the defending super bowl champ and you have all-pros at several positions, you wouldn't be willing to pay as much for a college player at one of those positions b/c you wouldn't need him as much. The Raiders, Browns, Chiefs and all the other bad teams would have a much larger incentive to offer college stars more money, simply because they need them more.
If your concern is that the best teams would somehow get the best college kids each year- Its not like the Giants, Patriots, or Steelers would break the bank to sign Stafford or Sanchez. They don't need them because they wouldn't need to replace Manning, Brady, or Big Ben. Make sense?
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Allowing players to essentially achieve free agent status out of college is certainly NOT one of those ways, that much is not even debatable..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>The free markets that guide all of our other industries would say that whichever team needed the best college players would pay the most for them. That in and of itself would keep the league competitve. >>
Ask fans of small market MLB teams how well the concepts like these are working to keep competitive balance in baseball.
If we want the NFL to have baseball's screwed up and lopsided economics where only a few teams have a chance and a few teams can stockpile all the talents, this is a great way to do it. The last thing I hope to see is the equivalent of the Yankees and Red Sox competing against the Royals and Pirates for talent in football.
I understand what you are trying to express, but it still isn't true. A 22-year-old rookie police officer or fast-food server has very little room for negotiation. Obviously they can go to any police department of fast food chain, but Crabtree can go to the CFL, UFL or several other pro-football leagues. Remember, once a police candidate has gone through training, they are usually locked into working for the state that trained them without either gaining enough experience or going through the training process again
Further, and most importantly, the union did negotiate for how the draft process would work. If a school teacher or auto worker disagrees strongly about some of the things their unions have negotiated they will end up in the same exact situation Crabtree is in
<< <i> If a school teacher or auto worker disagrees strongly about some of the things their unions have negotiated they will end up in the same exact situation Crabtree is in >>
I think you make some good points, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Your last point is, I beleive, just not the case. The auto mechanic is part of a competitive industry. He can go work for any number of other repair shops etc. Thats also the case for the school teacher. Even though its in the public sector, one high schools can take a talented teacher from another high school anytime it wants by offering a 50,000 salary to someone who's currently making 40,000. This happens all the time, espcially in the case of administrators and football coaches. If you're a coach and you go 0-10, you get fired and then get re-hired at a smaller school who pays you less. If you go 10-0, you get the attention of larger schools who pay them more. There are thousands of schools that compete for good principals and good coaches. Do well, get noticed, and a match is made. But in the NFL's drafting/slotting system, there is only 1 team competing for Michael Crabtree and thats unfair. And please don't say "he could go work at Hardees." Thats both insulting and absurd and I'm sure you wouldn't want someone saying that to you.
This free-market ease of movement is not allowable for Michael Crabtree or other players right out of college, who have already demonstrated 3 or 4 years of ability which teams could use as a yardstick to guage their first paycheck. Simply put, if Michael Crabtree were a mechanic or a teacher, he'd be employed today because he'd be able to negotiate with other employers in his industry. Yes, I realize he could be playing for the 49ers today as well if he'd accept less money. Thats not the point here, so lets not get sidetracked. I'm not defending Crabtree. The point is that players in his situation are uniquely disadvantaged from a negotiation standpoint due the system that is in place that takes away their leverage to negotiate with multiple parties. Still waiting on Grote to provide some other industries that operate this way. Honestly, I can't think of any.
I usually find myself on the popular side of an issue, but this time it looks like I'm on an island. Thats OK though. I still feel like this system could be improved.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
<< <i>I'm not defending Crabtree. The point is that players in his situation are uniquely disadvantaged from a negotiation standpoint due the system that is in place that takes away their leverage to negotiate with multiple parties. >>
Seems to me the 49ers also disadvantaged in that they lost the ability to negotiate with multiple parties of Crabtree's caliber -- so it's not like the system only "screws" the players.
Simply put, I think it's in the best interest of the NFL to ensure that it doesn't become another MLB in terms of economics. Anything that makes it more MLB-like in terms of free agency, elimination of the draft, elimination of salary caps and the like is one step closer to the NFL having the built-in and seemingly intractably broken and lopsided economics of MLB. I would contend that the competitive balance and lack of prohibitive economic advantages from one franchise to the next have done a LOT to increase the popularity of the NFL, which has benefited all within the NFL, owners, coaches and players alike. If the NFL's economics become skewed like MLB's, I'll rapidly lose interest just as each year I lose more interest in MLB as the Yankees and Red Sox pillage more talent from the likes of the Royals and the Pirates and others.
In terms of player injustices, Michael Crabtree can't carry Curt Flood's jock.
<< <i>Niners looked good today. Thank god we have 4, and for all you haters of Brett THAT is why we have him. Classic NFL moment... >>
Never said dude still couldn't play. I'm just tired of his drama and his streak-worship.
<< <i>The auto mechanic is part of a competitive industry. He can go work for any number of other repair shops etc >>
So the real issue has very little to to do with the draft process like you originally said. The real issue is the monopoly that the NFL has -- there aren't too many people who would agree that labor has been hurt by the monopolies sports leagues have. I guess Crabtree could take them to court over that issue and he just might win one dollar like the USFL did. Within the confines of the NFL monopoly, the draft process is perfectly fair and is dictated by the free-market as both labor and management negotiated for how it would work
<< <i>and this is the last time I'll say it >>
Yet you continue to reguritate the same apples to oranges comparision.
You don't like the alloted salaries based upon draft position. We get it. If congress decides that the NFL is a monopoly, then you'll have an argument...
Untill then, you can continue to pee into the wind.
<< <i>Everyone should be able to negotiate with whomever they want and they should have that right from day 1 >>
Actually, if you fall far enough in the draft, you don't want to be drafted. If you don't and at that point, you CAN negotiate with whomever for whatever you want.
Again, apples to oranges...
<< <i>So I guess my favorite line so far is the one about- "If they don't like it, they can go work at Hardees." You're actually supporting my argument when you say that. Since rookies can only negotiate with 1 team, if they can't come to terms, the player isn't allowed to work in their chosen profession, NFL football. Salaries aside, imagine if your profession operated like that and how you'd feel? If you and your boss couldn't agree to terms, I guess you could go work at Hardees too. >>
Actually dude, I work in a "at will" state, which means I can be fired for any reason at any time (ie they don't owe me a reason) so me holding out would just not work. Nowhere is it written in stone that you are guaranteed a chance to work in your profession. There are tons
of athletes who put just as much time in learning their craft and never get a shot so why should Crabtree be able to change the rules.
All employers I have worked for have a salary structure in place and you are basically slotted based on skills and experience (wait sounds suspiciously like how NFL players are given money). There is some wiggle room for bonus and maybe time off but basically the employer knows what they are going to pay BEFORE you even work for them. In fact most companies tell you the salary range BEFORE you even interview. All NFL rookies are paid on potential not on work history, exactly the opposite of how companies hire professionals.
Also in the real world if I didn't like my job due to being underpaid and kept quitting and holding out for more money, after about 5 jobs employers would notice a pattern and quit hiring me. Job hopper is not a good term to be labeled.
Interesting read. While I may be biased because of where I went to college I don't have that big of a problem with Crabtree not signing. That being said didn't Bo Jackson do this and went in the 7th round the next year. I definately think Crabtree is costing himself some money, but if the things Mike Leach says are true then he is not one of these prima donna athletes with a large entourage. And do you really think Jerry Jones passes up the Dallas product and one of the best WRs ever to play college football, especailly when it could be argued that one of the glaring needs of the Cowboys is WR?
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<< <i>ESPN Crabtree Article
Interesting read. While I may be biased because of where I went to college I don't have that big of a problem with Crabtree not signing. That being said didn't Bo Jackson do this and went in the 7th round the next year. I definately think Crabtree is costing himself some money, but if the things Mike Leach says are true then he is not one of these prima donna athletes with a large entourage. And do you really think Jerry Jones passes up the Dallas product and one of the best WRs ever to play college football, especailly when it could be argued that one of the glaring needs of the Cowboys is WR? >>
Bo was the first player taken in the draft. He did not sign because he preferred to play baseball. He may have been drafted lower in a later draft (I do not remember), but money was not the issue. The Bo and Crabtree situations are light years apart.
Personally, I think he is making a mistake, but it's none of my business. Who is the baseball player (Harrington?) who was a 1st round pick of the Rockies, failed to sign, and never did get big money.
I found a link- http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=090423/harrington
It says he turned down 5 million, was drafted five times, but never signed. It's a sad story-the kid received a lot of bad advice.
A brutha gots to have RESPECT and if a brutha don't get it, the brutha gonna be coppin a tude, .............ya know what I'm sayin.................., my brutha.
FWIW, if I was offered tens of millions of dollars to play a pro sport, with much of it guaranteed, I would thank everyone who had any part in bringing me up, sign on the dotted line, put the money in the bank and get to work. But then again, that is just me.
<< <i>That being said didn't Bo Jackson do this and went in the 7th round the next year. >>
Bo Jackson was a different situation -- instead of holding out and earning nothing, he chose to make baseball his primary career and football was, in his words, just a "hobby." A hobby that ended his baseball career way too soon, as it turns out.
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Next year, he will be lucky to get half of what he could have gotten this year. You can't get 1st round money if you aren't drafted in the first 5 rounds. Not to mention the money he has already lost by holding out this year.
<< <i>he wants to be the Michael Jordan of football >>
Yeah the guy doesn't have attitude issues. This might be an example of "when keeping it real goes too far".
Guy is a loner, so what happens when he finally gets put in the league, vets treat him like crap for making more than them, holding out for even more without ever playing a down in a game. Other rookies probably treat him like crap for hurting the team. Anyone watching HBO's show on the Bengals saw how the coaches treated Andre Smith once he signed, "crappy" is mild. All this will lead him to withdraw even further into his shell, believe everyone is disrespecting him and eventually he will self destruct.
<< <i>Plain and simple, the guy is a douche. Nothing more than an overhyped receiver that was part of an offensive system. He made one spectacular play in a high profile game and he apperantly thinks that one play was worth bazillions.
Next year, he will be lucky to get half of what he could have gotten this year. You can't get 1st round money if you aren't drafted in the first 5 rounds. Not to mention the money he has already lost by holding out this year. >>
How do you know this?
If it goes on that long it will be a shame but if the 49ers keep winning Crabtree will lose alot of his bargaining power. I think if he were not traded and he just went back into the draft pool do the 49ers get any compensation? If not they will trade him for something I imagine.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>The team has like sometime in Nov. to sign him or they have to wait unitl March to trade his rights?
If it goes on that long it will be a shame but if the 49ers keep winning Crabtree will lose alot of his bargaining power. I think if he were not traded and he just went back into the draft pool do the 49ers get any compensation? If not they will trade him for something I imagine. >>
LOL.. And what bargaining power would that be? You say that as if he had any to begin with. Players in his position have no bargaining power.
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Deon his close personal advisor, said 2 teams were willing to pay more than the 49ers have offered. This set off the tampering allegation. It is a major reason why he won't sign is he thinks there are multiple teams willing to pay more and he is trying to use that as leverage to get the 49ers to pay above slot.
No team will try and trade for him without first negotiating a deal. So if the 49ers don't sign him by Nov. He has to wait until March to be traded. The only teams that will want to trade are ones that will already basically have a deal in place IE the teams supposedly willing to pay more right now so in essence if he wants to he can hold out and force a trade to one of these teams. So yes he does have some power here but it will cost him 1 year of pay and playing time.
<< <i>
<< <i>The team has like sometime in Nov. to sign him or they have to wait unitl March to trade his rights?
If it goes on that long it will be a shame but if the 49ers keep winning Crabtree will lose alot of his bargaining power. I think if he were not traded and he just went back into the draft pool do the 49ers get any compensation? If not they will trade him for something I imagine. >>
LOL.. And what bargaining power would that be? You say that as if he had any to begin with. Players in his position have no bargaining power. >>
He has only one bargaining chip and has played it the entire time:
Sign me for what I want or lose your #1 draft pick without any compensation.
LOL