<< <i>All top TPG's need to keep a library with obverse and reverse images of the coins they have slabbed. Then when you look up a slab number for verification you can see the coin image as well. >>
You ok with grading fees doubling to pay for the photo service, database management, and storage requirements? and even if they do this, what about the millions of slabs already out there. The forgers can just forge those forever without ever touching the new stuff.
--Jerry >>
Who says the grading fees have to double? PCGS should "eat" the cost to preserve their integrity. As for older slabs they can offer photodocumentation for the cost of shipping and maybe a modest fee.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>At least ebay will end the auction. They are slow but they will. They have to do some sort of validation. If the reports they're recieved just say "This is Fake" then how do they know it isn't just a competing seller trying to get this guy's listings taken down. You have to provide details that they can back up. they don't know coins. They see a coin in a PCGS slab and they assume it is real.
--Jerry >>
How do you do provide details in 100 characters or less Jerry?
Here's what I get:
You cannot provide specifics as the report gets truncated at 100 characters. I can't even provide the URL for this thread which leaves me with: This is a fake PCGS slab and Coin.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Good work catching this PCGS69. The fakes are getting to the level in quantity and money that the Secret Service should get involved. The fourth fake 1802 half dollar in less than a month is now on eBay, and it is from a different transfer die than the others, this one has a reeded edge! another bogus 1802 half dollar
Edit - reporting fakes on eBay is confusing and does not allow full explanation of the issue. Ebay needs to have a direct reporting category for counterfeit coins.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
<< <i>I'm not sure if this is the correct place to report it but I just did... not that it will help but maybe if they had a whole bunch of emails it might.
The PNG or perhaps PCGS should buy some of these multi-thousand dollar fakes, then apply for Paypal buyer protection. After ebay has to pay a enough claims that they have to list it as an item on their quarterly reports with the SEC, they might get really serious about keeping these off eBay.
A family friend sells ladies cosmetics, and Avon and Mary Kay are constantly shutting down her auctions until she can prove that the cosmetics are genuine and making her show her invoices and such. Why does ebay act on a $10 jar of face cream and not a $7900 fake PCGS slab? Seems PCGS is not properly involkng their rights under the VERO trademark program, which allows trademark owners to instantly end auctions without having to go through eBay's people.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
In recent days, counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS slabs have begun to appear on eBay, the online auction site. All of the counterfeit coins/holders seen so far are coming out of China. Alert members of the PCGS Message Boards were the first to notify PCGS of the counterfeit coins/holders.
The coins themselves range from poor-quality counterfeits to well-made fakes. The counterfeit PCGS holders are well-executed, but with minor differences from a genuine holder. PCGS anticipates that authentic coins will eventually be placed into counterfeit PCGS holders in the future, perhaps with elevated grades and/or inappropriate designators (Full Bell Lines, Prooflike, etc.), although none have been seen to date.
The on-line PCGS Certificate Verification is a method for confirming that a particular certificate number matches the information in the PCGS database, but the counterfeiters are aware of this detection method and are now using valid certificate numbers (see below).
PCGS has contacted U.S. governmental agencies, including the FBI, U.S. Customs, the Secret Service, and US Postal authorities, to enlist their assistance in pursuing enforcement or legal remedies against these counterfeiters. Also, PCGS is a member of eBay's CCW Group, which monitors eBay for fraudulent listings and asks eBay to discontinue auctions of suspicious coins and/or suspend violators.
PCGS has called for eBay to stop accepting listings of any rare coins from Chinese sellers. Ebay recently pulled several auctions of counterfeit coins/holders at the urging of PCGS.
PCGS urges consumers not to purchase rare coins from Chinese sellers on eBay. While legitimate, authentic coins exist in China, the plethora of fakes and fraudulent listings on eBay increase the likelihood that coins purchased from Chinese sellers will be counterfeit.
The PCGS Guarantees of Grade and Authenticity do not apply to counterfeit holders, but PCGS has a strong interest in assisting consumers in actions against any fraudulent sellers.
Sufficient differences exist between genuine and counterfeit holders such that PCGS experts can easily identify fake holders. Consumers are cautioned that coins that appear to be underpriced may be counterfeit. PCGS urges all consumers to deal only with reputable sellers who are willing to stand behind the coins they sell.
PCGS recommends consumers consider the following any time they make a coin purchase:
1. Verify the certificate number using the PCGS Cert Verification program at http://www.pcgs.com/cert/ See limitations above 2. Avoid purchasing rare coins from eBay sellers in China. 3. Investigate the legitimacy of the seller (examine feedback; avoid low feedback sellers; find out how long the seller has been in business; do they have a good reputation?; do you have legal recourse in case of a problem?). 4. Make sure you have a money-back guarantee that is enforceable (for example, credit card companies will often assist in cases of fraud). 5. Realize that "bargains" in numismatics are usually too good to be true. 6. If you have a question about a particular coin, be sure to have it checked out by an Authorized PCGS Dealer or by PCGS before the expiration of any guarantees. 7. Request an immediate refund if the coin you purchased turns out to be a counterfeit.
The following list of coins and certificate numbers have been seen in fake PCGS holders:
China (1916) Silver Dollar, Y-332, Cert #10712316 (valid) China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-677, Cert #11354470 (valid) China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-678, Cert #11285683 (valid) China (1923) Silver Dollar, Y-336.1, Cert #13835186 (valid) China Republic (1912) 20 Cents, Cert #21981173 (invalid) China (1916) Gold Dollar, Pn-44, Cert # 11072163 (invalid) China (1923) Gold Dollar, Tsao Kun, K-677, Cert #11354470 (invalid spec, valid cert…used above) US 1858-O Half Dollar, Cert #03884338 (valid) US 1800 Silver Dollar, Cert #03859118 (valid) US 1795 Silver Dollar, Off-Center Bust, Cert #22030856 (valid) Mexico 1761-MoMM 8 Reales, Cert #05763936 (valid)
"Valid" means that the correct information shows up under Cert Verification
To alert PCGS to any offerings of counterfeit PCGS holders, please notify Ron Guth at guthr@collectors.com. For more information, contact PCGS Customer Service at 800-447-8848.
There are some logistical issues and the usual bureaucracy. eBay has community members who are designated coin experts that need to be involved. Lance.
Relisted! With an $8k BIN, no less, and a diatribe at the bottom of the listing about the "idiots" who reported it as a fake! I thought PCGS was going to get this thing GONE!
<< <i>Relisted! With an $8k BIN, no less, and a diatribe at the bottom of the listing about the "idiots" who reported it as a fake! I thought PCGS was going to get this thing GONE!
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly."
<< <i>Is there any chance the seller really thinks it's genuine. >>
"if it is in fact a fake i paid over 8 thousand for it so it looks pretty good to me"
Sure. Looks like the seller is convinced it is genuine to the tune of $8k.
Too bad this stuff isn't traced up the food chain to the source importer. Constantly cancelling eBay auctions seems fruitless. >>
read what he wrote.
You just got told the coin you paid 8k for is fake. Your reaction is to reply with I paid 8k so it's real and looks real?
How about "what makes you so sure it's fake?" or "I checked it out with __________" or "You don't know your coins, it's got ___ and ___. It's real and you're really stupid"
<< <i>All top TPG's need to keep a library with obverse and reverse images of the coins they have slabbed. Then when you look up a slab number for verification you can see the coin image as well. >>
It is my understanding that NGC is currently doing this (at least taking the photos and retaining them for their own protection.) Maybe PCGS will eventually catch up.
I sent the seller a message with a reference for photos of the genuine item (same PCGS holder number and description) sold by Heritage in Feb 2009, on Heritage website.
The close-up pictures for the auto parts seller is selling or has sold are so well-lit and in focus, whereas the rare coins are often out of focus, and/or poorly lit... take the 1798 dollar and Barber dimes, for example... must use a different camera and setup for the coin pictures.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>All top TPG's need to keep a library with obverse and reverse images of the coins they have slabbed. Then when you look up a slab number for verification you can see the coin image as well. >>
You ok with grading fees doubling to pay for the photo service, database management, and storage requirements? and even if they do this, what about the millions of slabs already out there. The forgers can just forge those forever without ever touching the new stuff.
--Jerry >>
Who says the grading fees have to double? PCGS should "eat" the cost to preserve their integrity. As for older slabs they can offer photodocumentation for the cost of shipping and maybe a modest fee.
Counterfeits are going to be a huge problem for the market..
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Has anyone tried to contact the Secret Service they are supposed to handle counterfieting.
They are too busy protecting the President.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Report Ebay Coin Auction
<< <i>Just heard back from PCGS. They're on it now. >>
Really now?
Maybe one of them eBay fellows is running the bid up?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>At least ebay will end the auction. They are slow but they will. They have to do some sort of validation. If the reports they're recieved just say "This is Fake" then how do they know it isn't just a competing seller trying to get this guy's listings taken down. You have to provide details that they can back up. they don't know coins. They see a coin in a PCGS slab and they assume it is real.
--Jerry >>
How do you do provide details in 100 characters or less Jerry?
Here's what I get:
You cannot provide specifics as the report gets truncated at 100 characters. I can't even provide the URL for this thread which leaves me with: This is a fake PCGS slab and Coin.
The name is LEE!
Edit - reporting fakes on eBay is confusing and does not allow full explanation of the issue. Ebay needs to have a direct reporting category for counterfeit coins.
<< <i>I'm not sure if this is the correct place to report it but I just did... not that it will help but maybe if they had a whole bunch of emails it might.
Report Ebay Coin Auction >>
Thanks for the link Richardshipp. This one allows more detail reporting and I've saved it to my favorites.
The name is LEE!
A family friend sells ladies cosmetics, and Avon and Mary Kay are constantly shutting down her auctions until she can prove that the cosmetics are genuine and making her show her invoices and such. Why does ebay act on a $10 jar of face cream and not a $7900 fake PCGS slab? Seems PCGS is not properly involkng their rights under the VERO trademark program, which allows trademark owners to instantly end auctions without having to go through eBay's people.
www.ebay.com/ccw
- March 27, 2008
In recent days, counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS slabs have begun to appear on eBay, the online auction site. All of the counterfeit coins/holders seen so far are coming out of China. Alert members of the PCGS Message Boards were the first to notify PCGS of the counterfeit coins/holders.
The coins themselves range from poor-quality counterfeits to well-made fakes. The counterfeit PCGS holders are well-executed, but with minor differences from a genuine holder. PCGS anticipates that authentic coins will eventually be placed into counterfeit PCGS holders in the future, perhaps with elevated grades and/or inappropriate designators (Full Bell Lines, Prooflike, etc.), although none have been seen to date.
The on-line PCGS Certificate Verification is a method for confirming that a particular certificate number matches the information in the PCGS database, but the counterfeiters are aware of this detection method and are now using valid certificate numbers (see below).
PCGS has contacted U.S. governmental agencies, including the FBI, U.S. Customs, the Secret Service, and US Postal authorities, to enlist their assistance in pursuing enforcement or legal remedies against these counterfeiters. Also, PCGS is a member of eBay's CCW Group, which monitors eBay for fraudulent listings and asks eBay to discontinue auctions of suspicious coins and/or suspend violators.
PCGS has called for eBay to stop accepting listings of any rare coins from Chinese sellers. Ebay recently pulled several auctions of counterfeit coins/holders at the urging of PCGS.
PCGS urges consumers not to purchase rare coins from Chinese sellers on eBay. While legitimate, authentic coins exist in China, the plethora of fakes and fraudulent listings on eBay increase the likelihood that coins purchased from Chinese sellers will be counterfeit.
The PCGS Guarantees of Grade and Authenticity do not apply to counterfeit holders, but PCGS has a strong interest in assisting consumers in actions against any fraudulent sellers.
Sufficient differences exist between genuine and counterfeit holders such that PCGS experts can easily identify fake holders. Consumers are cautioned that coins that appear to be underpriced may be counterfeit. PCGS urges all consumers to deal only with reputable sellers who are willing to stand behind the coins they sell.
PCGS recommends consumers consider the following any time they make a coin purchase:
1. Verify the certificate number using the PCGS Cert Verification program at http://www.pcgs.com/cert/
See limitations above
2. Avoid purchasing rare coins from eBay sellers in China.
3. Investigate the legitimacy of the seller (examine feedback; avoid low feedback sellers; find out how long the seller has been in business; do they have a good reputation?; do you have legal recourse in case of a problem?).
4. Make sure you have a money-back guarantee that is enforceable (for example, credit card companies will often assist in cases of fraud).
5. Realize that "bargains" in numismatics are usually too good to be true.
6. If you have a question about a particular coin, be sure to have it checked out by an Authorized PCGS Dealer or by PCGS before the expiration of any guarantees.
7. Request an immediate refund if the coin you purchased turns out to be a counterfeit.
The following list of coins and certificate numbers have been seen in fake PCGS holders:
China (1916) Silver Dollar, Y-332, Cert #10712316 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-677, Cert #11354470 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-678, Cert #11285683 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, Y-336.1, Cert #13835186 (valid)
China Republic (1912) 20 Cents, Cert #21981173 (invalid)
China (1916) Gold Dollar, Pn-44, Cert # 11072163 (invalid)
China (1923) Gold Dollar, Tsao Kun, K-677, Cert #11354470 (invalid spec, valid cert…used above)
US 1858-O Half Dollar, Cert #03884338 (valid)
US 1800 Silver Dollar, Cert #03859118 (valid)
US 1795 Silver Dollar, Off-Center Bust, Cert #22030856 (valid)
Mexico 1761-MoMM 8 Reales, Cert #05763936 (valid)
"Valid" means that the correct information shows up under Cert Verification
To alert PCGS to any offerings of counterfeit PCGS holders, please notify Ron Guth at guthr@collectors.com. For more information, contact PCGS Customer Service at 800-447-8848.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Link to report to CCW is: report fakes here
There are some logistical issues and the usual bureaucracy. eBay has community members who are designated coin experts that need to be involved.
Lance.
He should have been arrested and his coins confiscated.
Lance.
Relisted 1796 fake
<< <i>Relisted! With an $8k BIN, no less, and a diatribe at the bottom of the listing about the "idiots" who reported it as a fake! I thought PCGS was going to get this thing GONE!
Relisted 1796 fake >>
Here we go again!
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Is there any chance the seller really thinks it's genuine. >>
"if it is in fact a fake i paid over 8 thousand for it so it looks pretty good to me"
Sure. Looks like the seller is convinced it is genuine to the tune of $8k.
Too bad this stuff isn't traced up the food chain to the source importer. Constantly cancelling eBay auctions seems fruitless.
<< <i>
<< <i>Is there any chance the seller really thinks it's genuine. >>
"if it is in fact a fake i paid over 8 thousand for it so it looks pretty good to me"
Sure. Looks like the seller is convinced it is genuine to the tune of $8k.
Too bad this stuff isn't traced up the food chain to the source importer. Constantly cancelling eBay auctions seems fruitless. >>
I guess the seller is in denial. He can bring himself to believe he made an $8,000 mistake.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>Is there any chance the seller really thinks it's genuine. >>
"if it is in fact a fake i paid over 8 thousand for it so it looks pretty good to me"
Sure. Looks like the seller is convinced it is genuine to the tune of $8k.
Too bad this stuff isn't traced up the food chain to the source importer. Constantly cancelling eBay auctions seems fruitless. >>
If he really did pay $8k for it he would be running down the party he bought it from instead of relisting it. Ebay will NARU him for that. --Jerry
Hm.
Let me rephrase that.
If I blew 8K on a Single Coin, i'd be so unhappy with myself that i'd stop coin collecting.
[edit]
The most recent listing is an interesting mixture of denial and acknowledgment.
Let's see, they pulled the listing because it was fake.
He relisted it.
Glutton for punishment.
<< <i>ebay's policys have gotten ridiculous and i will restrain from using ebay in the future
everyone needs to do their own due dilligence before buying anything!!!!
>>
What an idiot. If he really did spend $8K on it he should have done his due dilligence I guess....
<< <i>Any guesses how long it will take eBay to nuke him or her along with their auctions? >>
Has anyone bothered to report this new auction?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Has anyone bothered to report this new auction? >>
I did using the link Frank provided.
<< <i>
<< <i>Is there any chance the seller really thinks it's genuine. >>
"if it is in fact a fake i paid over 8 thousand for it so it looks pretty good to me"
Sure. Looks like the seller is convinced it is genuine to the tune of $8k.
Too bad this stuff isn't traced up the food chain to the source importer. Constantly cancelling eBay auctions seems fruitless. >>
read what he wrote.
You just got told the coin you paid 8k for is fake. Your reaction is to reply with I paid 8k so it's real and looks real?
How about "what makes you so sure it's fake?"
or
"I checked it out with __________"
or
"You don't know your coins, it's got ___ and ___. It's real and you're really stupid"
but
"I paid 8k so it looks real" ??????
the reply seems off to me.
does say:
"this coin does not fit the description of a fake"
nice!
all fakes are documented?
<< <i>Current bid at $14,100.00!! Talk about playing with this idiot! He must have some serious delusions of grandure!! >>
Yup. Someone is screwing with him.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>All top TPG's need to keep a library with obverse and reverse images of the coins they have slabbed. Then when you look up a slab number for verification you can see the coin image as well. >>
It is my understanding that NGC is currently doing this (at least taking the photos and retaining them for their own protection.) Maybe PCGS will eventually catch up.
Again.
With pleasure.
Please, everyone do likewise.
I did not realize he relisted with a BIN of $8K. Heck, it had been bid to over $11K before it got nuked.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
He really must think it is authentic.
"sorry to my bidders
ebay cancelled this auction because of some people reporting it to be a fake
i have the official numismatic association grading standard book as well as others and this coin does not fit the description of a fake
if it is in fact a fake i paid over 8 thousand for it so it looks pretty good to me
what you will recieve is the exact coin pictured if you infact think of it to be fake then do not bid!!!
ebay's policys have gotten ridiculous and i will restrain from using ebay in the future
everyone needs to do their own due dilligence before buying anything!!!!"
<< <i>Do you think the guy's a crook or just a dumb sucker? >>
I think he is a clueless idiot.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......