Where Does Jeter Rank in the Pantheon of Yankee Greats
markj111
Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
From Rob Neyer:
Playing the Jeter game
September 10, 2009 3:13 PM
OK. I'll play this game:
No doubt that Jeter has been one of the greatest Yankees of all-time. His first handful of years in the league, he played in the world series 5 times, winning 4. But since that run, the Yankees have gone into a slump.
Jeter is certainly not to blame for the slump, however, when you're the captain, people will look to you when the team is good and certainly when they're bad.
All that aside, where does Jeter rank amongst the great Yankees? There are few that would put him above the legends like Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, and Mantle. But what about the rest?
Whitey Ford, Yogi Berra, Mariano Rivera?
I'm not going to give anything away; click on the link and make your choice, and you can see what everybody else thinks.
I will tell you what I think, though. Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle were all, by popular acclaim, the very best players in the American League, and more than once. Ruth, you know about. Gehrig was probably the second-best player in the American League until late in Ruth's career, after which Gehrig was probably the best. When Gehrig hit his decline phase and then got sick, DiMaggio took over, winning three MVP's and finishing second twice; his record would be even more impressive if he hadn't missed three seasons during World War II. And of course, as DiMaggio was going out, Mantle was coming in. The Mick won three MVP Awards and finished second three times.
Derek Jeter just can't compare to those guys (all of whom, by the way, wore their share of World Series rings, too). His highest MVP finishes: second and third. You might argue that it's harder to win awards now because there are more teams, and you would be absolutely right. You might argue that Jeter should probably have won at least MVP by now, and you would probably be right. But it's hard for me to construct an argument that Jeter belongs, qualitatively, in that exclusive club. We just can't get him into the top four, no matter how hard we try.
Top five, though? As much as I admire Mariano Rivera, let's leave him behind for now. He's a relief pitcher. And relief pitchers, however brilliant, just can't break into this discussion. Not for long, anyway. So it comes down, I think to Jeter, Ford, and Berra.
Ford went 236-106 in his career, which essentially lasted only 14 seasons. But it's often forgotten that many players in Ford's time were drafted during the Korean War, and Ford missed all of 1951 and '52 while serving in the military. I'm always hesitant to "credit" young pitchers with theoretical performance during missed seasons, because it's at least possible that those missed seasons actually led to a longer career (cf. Warren Spahn). The bottom line is that from 1953 through 1964, Whitey Ford was the best pitcher in the American League. By quite a lot.
Yogi Berra still ranks among the two or three greatest catchers ever. It's basically Berra, Johnny Bench, and whoever else you want to throw in there. Is Derek Jeter one of the three greatest shortstops? Not yet, he's not. Not with his defense (sorry). The top three shortstops are Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken, and ... well, I'm a big Arky Vaughan fan. But I'm looking at a list of Hall of Fame shortstops, and I'm not at all sure that Jeter doesn't belong in there somewhere.
The real problem, I think, is that we don't yet have any perspective on his career. The other problem is that where you place Jeter among that next group of three depends largely on preconceptions that are just marginally subject to analysis. For the moment, I'm prepared to say only that Jeter, at this moment but with many more moments to come, might be the Fifth Greatest Yankeee Ever, or the Seventh.
Playing the Jeter game
September 10, 2009 3:13 PM
OK. I'll play this game:
No doubt that Jeter has been one of the greatest Yankees of all-time. His first handful of years in the league, he played in the world series 5 times, winning 4. But since that run, the Yankees have gone into a slump.
Jeter is certainly not to blame for the slump, however, when you're the captain, people will look to you when the team is good and certainly when they're bad.
All that aside, where does Jeter rank amongst the great Yankees? There are few that would put him above the legends like Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, and Mantle. But what about the rest?
Whitey Ford, Yogi Berra, Mariano Rivera?
I'm not going to give anything away; click on the link and make your choice, and you can see what everybody else thinks.
I will tell you what I think, though. Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle were all, by popular acclaim, the very best players in the American League, and more than once. Ruth, you know about. Gehrig was probably the second-best player in the American League until late in Ruth's career, after which Gehrig was probably the best. When Gehrig hit his decline phase and then got sick, DiMaggio took over, winning three MVP's and finishing second twice; his record would be even more impressive if he hadn't missed three seasons during World War II. And of course, as DiMaggio was going out, Mantle was coming in. The Mick won three MVP Awards and finished second three times.
Derek Jeter just can't compare to those guys (all of whom, by the way, wore their share of World Series rings, too). His highest MVP finishes: second and third. You might argue that it's harder to win awards now because there are more teams, and you would be absolutely right. You might argue that Jeter should probably have won at least MVP by now, and you would probably be right. But it's hard for me to construct an argument that Jeter belongs, qualitatively, in that exclusive club. We just can't get him into the top four, no matter how hard we try.
Top five, though? As much as I admire Mariano Rivera, let's leave him behind for now. He's a relief pitcher. And relief pitchers, however brilliant, just can't break into this discussion. Not for long, anyway. So it comes down, I think to Jeter, Ford, and Berra.
Ford went 236-106 in his career, which essentially lasted only 14 seasons. But it's often forgotten that many players in Ford's time were drafted during the Korean War, and Ford missed all of 1951 and '52 while serving in the military. I'm always hesitant to "credit" young pitchers with theoretical performance during missed seasons, because it's at least possible that those missed seasons actually led to a longer career (cf. Warren Spahn). The bottom line is that from 1953 through 1964, Whitey Ford was the best pitcher in the American League. By quite a lot.
Yogi Berra still ranks among the two or three greatest catchers ever. It's basically Berra, Johnny Bench, and whoever else you want to throw in there. Is Derek Jeter one of the three greatest shortstops? Not yet, he's not. Not with his defense (sorry). The top three shortstops are Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken, and ... well, I'm a big Arky Vaughan fan. But I'm looking at a list of Hall of Fame shortstops, and I'm not at all sure that Jeter doesn't belong in there somewhere.
The real problem, I think, is that we don't yet have any perspective on his career. The other problem is that where you place Jeter among that next group of three depends largely on preconceptions that are just marginally subject to analysis. For the moment, I'm prepared to say only that Jeter, at this moment but with many more moments to come, might be the Fifth Greatest Yankeee Ever, or the Seventh.
0
Comments
<< <i>His highest MVP finishes: second and third. >>
Those 2 seasons (1998 and 2006) are probably the only 2 seasons that he was the best player on his team for a year. Hard to call him one of the greatest in Yankees history when you are consistently the 3rd or 4th best player on your own team.
I'll take Berra as the fifth best
<< <i>What a horrible article. If you ask the question and write a page on it, you need a better answer than "I don't know."
I'll take Berra as the fifth best >>
I don't get it. Why was the article horrible? I thought it was well reasoned.
<< <i>If you ask the question and write a page on it, you need a better answer than "I don't know" >>
<< <i>I'll take Berra as the fifth best >>
AGREED
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>
<< <i>What a horrible article. If you ask the question and write a page on it, you need a better answer than "I don't know."
I'll take Berra as the fifth best >>
I don't get it. Why was the article horrible? I thought it was well reasoned. >>
Well of course. You are a well documented Jeter hater / basher. So, big whoppie! You found another article that has some agreement with your weird passion.
I am still waiting for you to name a Atlanta Brave shortstop either dead or alive who MIGHT be allowed to lick Jeters dirty boxers after a game.
But nahhhh ... you hopelessly march on with your Jeter fetish.
You are too DUMB to realize that the fool who wrote that moronic piece is trying to compare a shortstop to some of the biggest offensive legends the Hall of Fame (let alone the Yankees) has seen.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
As for MVP awards, I believe they are a poor way to measure one player against another. The MVP is purely a subjective award. How many MVP's did Joe Dimaggio win that should have gone to Ted Williams? It's like the Heisman trophy. Was Gino Toretta the superior player when compared to Marshall Faulk? No way, but that's not how the voters saw it. Pure subjectivity.
I really don't care if an Atlanta Braves player wants to smell another mans used underwear, nor do I care if Jeter gives him permission or not
I understand completely who Neyer is trying to compare Jeter with. The problem is his comparison is nothing more than "they are incomparable." People who love Jeter should feel the article fails. The writer gives no opinion on where he should rank among the all-time greats other than some general "not as good as Mantle, maybe as good as Ford. Or maybe not"
If Neyer had said Jeter is the fifth best in Yankees history I would think it was a good article. But he doesn't. He ends the article leaving the reader in the same place where we started, with no opinion on where he ranks. If you're going to ask the question, at least try to provide an answer with something of substance
(In no particular order!)
Casey Stengal, Mariano Rivera, Joe Torre, Whitey Ford, Roger Marris, Joe DiMaggio, Yogi Berra, Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth, Lefty Gomez, Bernie Williams, Don Mattingly, Graig Nettles, Dave Winfield, Lou Gehrig, Derek Jeter, Goose Gossage, Sparky Lyle, Bill Dickey, Bernie Williams, Willie Randolph, Thurman Munson and I could name sooooooooooooooo many more that were just great Yankees and could make a case to add them to my list!!!
Most baseball fans can make a "list order" of the all-time Yankee greats!
Jeter is top 20. I'll leave it to "baseball history" to pick a slot for Jeter as a "Yankee great" He's there somewhere for sure!
99.99% of Yankee fans will tell you its so!
"Its so!"
rd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
Is it not laughable that their are dim wits out there who are dumb enough to write a "article" on how Derek Jeter ranks with Yankee greats 8 - 10 YEARS before he is done playing?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Also,
Is it not laughable that their are dim wits out there who are dumb enough to write a "article" on how Derek Jeter ranks with Yankee greats 8 - 10 YEARS before he is done playing?
I can certainly understand why you are an authority on dimwits. The article is EXTREMELY complimentary of Jeter. It states that he is somewhere between the 5th and 7th best player in the history of the greatest sports franchise in America, and you interpret it as a slam on Jeter. Lighten up.
<< <i>
<< <i>Also,
Is it not laughable that their are dim wits out there who are dumb enough to write a "article" on how Derek Jeter ranks with Yankee greats 8 - 10 YEARS before he is done playing?
I can certainly understand why you are an authority on dimwits. The article is EXTREMELY complimentary of Jeter. It states that he is somewhere between the 5th and 7th best player in the history of the greatest sports franchise in America, and you interpret it as a slam on Jeter. Lighten up. >>
well ok then ..... why don't we ALL wait until he is done with his career in the 2015 - 2019 time period? Especially you marky mark .....
and heaven forbid a thread or two stops to recognize what he has already done, documents upcoming milestones, and appreciates the truly old school mentality that he plays with .....
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
The key point to remember is that Jeter has a special quality. He has never been statistically the best at his position during any season in his career. He has rarely been the best player on his team during any season of his career. He has never been a league leader in any major statistical category during any season of his career. However, he has that intangible quality of stepping up on the big stage. He rarely makes a gaffe or public blunder. His image is squeaky clean. Even his romantic connections over the years have always been positive.
He is, to the current generation, the face of the New York Yankees. While no Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle or even Mattingly, he does have 4 World Series Rings. He was Rookie of the Year. He's won an All-Star MVP, a World Series MVP and finished as high as second in the AL MVP voting.
The press loves him.
Detractors point to his numbers and compare him to ARod or Ripken. They complain about his lack of range. They belittle his defense. They claim that if he played in another city, he'd be an average shortstop.
Average? I doubt it. Ripken would trade his consecutive game streak to have 4 World Series rings. ARod would sacrifice his nearly 600 homeruns for one of Jeter's rings.
Sure, Jeter may be a product of the Yankees popularity. His popularity may be heightened because the press loves him and he's an easy sell. But there is no denying the level of success that he has enjoyed over his 13+ year career. There's little anyone can challenge with regard to his consistency over that same period. And is is possible, that in his 14th season, he may be having his best all around season ever?
Sadly, the Yankees publicity machine has chosen to lasso an arbitrary all-time number around Jeter's neck. That of all-time Yankees hit leader. A number so convoluted and so obscure that until recently, I would suggest that no one knew what the record was.
So, as he surpasses Lou Gehrig's Yankees' career hits record, Derek Jeter, who has always been a player that was team first and never worried about the individual numbers, will be forced to play the numbers game and watch the Yankees and their fans celebrate while anointing their generation's "greatest Yankee" with numbers and accolades. Something that I'm sure Jeter is proud of, but would certainly trade for another World Series championship.
When all is said and done, Jeter is about winning. And that's the secret to his success and to his popularity.
<< <i>
Sadly, the Yankees publicity machine has chosen to lasso an arbitrary all-time number around Jeter's neck. That of all-time Yankees hit leader. A number so convoluted and so obscure that until recently, I would suggest that no one knew what the record was.
>>
If this did not sound EXACTLY what Mike Francessa was yelling all day long today I would say what a unique thought. But, indeed, Francessa was talking about this EXACT thought all day today until it was time for football speak.
Anyway, a level headed write up by otwcards
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Also,
Is it not laughable that their are dim wits out there who are dumb enough to write a "article" on how Derek Jeter ranks with Yankee greats 8 - 10 YEARS before he is done playing?
I can certainly understand why you are an authority on dimwits. The article is EXTREMELY complimentary of Jeter. It states that he is somewhere between the 5th and 7th best player in the history of the greatest sports franchise in America, and you interpret it as a slam on Jeter. Lighten up. >>
well ok then ..... why don't we ALL wait until he is done with his career in the 2015 - 2019 time period? Especially you marky mark .....
and heaven forbid a thread or two stops to recognize what he has already done, documents upcoming milestones, and appreciates the truly old school mentality that he plays with ..... >>
Dan we all know you dont have much time to post but if you did you would know that there has been several complimentary Jeter posts so PLEASE enough with your spastic defensive ways every single time a yankee thread is drawn up.
<< <i>
Dan we all know you dont have much time to post but if you did you would know that there has been several complimentary Jeter posts so PLEASE enough with your spastic defensive ways every single time a yankee thread is drawn up. >>
Paul,
You are a thread cop now?
Also, thank you for the "spastic" adjective in regards to how you feel I react to Yankee threads. Its something that occurs over time being a fan of the New York Yankees.
In return perhaps you can shut your pie hole as you have not been present in these discussions and probably should remain that way unless you want to bring something to the table other than a thread cop badge.
And I mean that in the most respectful way possible
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I would say 1999 is his best chance for that claim. When people look up the hitting leaders that year, they will find Manny as the only player with a sizeable lead in hitting on Jeter in the AL, and McGwire from the NL. Here are some figures...
AL
Player.......OPS+.....Situational Batter Runs
Manny......173.........70
Palmeiro...159.........60
Jeter.........153........60
Giambi......153........56
Nomar.......153........43
NL
McGwire.....177........75
Chipper......168........59
Basically you have two corner fielding sluggers with a lead on Jeter in hitting. Manny was a butcher in the field. McGwire o.k. Jeter was also below average, but he did that while playing SS, which should be enough to over come that hitting gap. It is also enough to pass Palmeiro. If that isn't enough, then baserunning(other than SB/CS), should put him ahead of both of those sluggers. That leaves Chipper. I didn't look up his defense at 3rd that year, but he seems to be the closest competition. At the least, Jeter has the AL title. Possibly the MLB title.
2006
Name.....OPS+
Mauer.....137
Jeter.......132
Both of them were exceptional with men on base, making them very close hitting wise. Jeter's position advantage in 1999 over the slow footed corner guys no longer applies in this case, as Mauer is at an even more scarce position, and Mauer was actually a very good catcher(compared to Jeter being a below average SS). I can't see Jeter taking this title.
I will say that they were both better than the guy who won the MVP that year.
<< <i>All fair points. My problem with Mauer in 2006 is that he played 30 less games on defense and 140 vs 154 overall as opposed to Jeter. It's a tough call to be sure but I don't think I'm out on a limb by siding with Jeter. Nor would anyone else be in picking Mauer. >>
I don't think you are out on a limb with that notion either. It is very close between the two. When you take into account the extra 14 games Jeter is playing, and the times Mauer was DH(good call, I didn't look at that), it may very well close the defenisve gap.
Either way you view it, I don't think a lot of fans realize that Jeter had two years where one could make such claims as you did(of being the best in the league).
Ruth
Gehrig
DiMaggio
Mantle
Berra
Ford
Jeter
Munson
Mattingly
This spot has about 10 players alone.
The 2 years IMO (where most would think) where Jeter was the best in Baseball was 99 and 06.
If not the best in the top 3, not sure he was ever the best.
Steve
<< <i>IMO Jeter ranks in the top 10.
Ruth
Gehrig
DiMaggio
Mantle
Berra
Ford
Jeter
Munson
Mattingly
This spot has about 10 players alone.
Do Munson and Mattingly really belong in the top 10? I would place Dickey ahead of both of them, and I would put Munson ahead of Mattingly. I would have to think about Lazzeri, Combs and others. Arod might eventually figure in the conservation.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>
Dan we all know you dont have much time to post but if you did you would know that there has been several complimentary Jeter posts so PLEASE enough with your spastic defensive ways every single time a yankee thread is drawn up. >>
Paul,
You are a thread cop now?
Also, thank you for the "spastic" adjective in regards to how you feel I react to Yankee threads. Its something that occurs over time being a fan of the New York Yankees.
In return perhaps you can shut your pie hole as you have not been present in these discussions and probably should remain that way unless you want to bring something to the table other than a thread cop badge.
And I mean that in the most respectful way possible
Dan maybe you should do some research about Jeter threads before you fly off your handle and get all defensive- thats all I was saying. I have complimented Derek Jeter many times in threads here, many that you have missed do to one of your "This place is a joke sabaticles" Jeter is a great Yankee, he is nearing 3000, Jeter this, Jeter that- many threads my friend, all of which I have contributed to with positive things to say about him.
BTW- I did spit out my drink in laughter when I read your comment about Jeter playing another 8-10 years- that was great!
All in all it was an excellent response Dan
On topic the way I rank Jeter...
1-Mantle/Ruth
2-Ruth/Mantle
3-Gerihg
4-Dimmagio
5-Berra
6-Ford
7-Jeter
8-Bernie Williams
9-Munson
10-Torre/Stengel
<< <i>I would say 1999 is his best chance for that claim >>
Not even close to Martinez. . .
While Jeter is only even money to overtake Berra for fifth, if he isn't sixth now, he will pass Ford very soon. Eighth, ninth and tenth, would be Rivera, Gomez and Williams. Bill Dickey was a platoon player and played when there was virtually zero base stealing. Rodriguez has an outside chance to overtake 10th. Mattingly and Munson aren't close
Anyone who thinks he is close to passing Ripken as the second best shortstop in history has to have forgotten how dreadful all the other shortstops were during that time. Getting 25 and a .280 average from that position was such a huge advantage the Orioles had every year for so long. You would also have to forget just how strong his arm was and how good he was at positioning himself before the pitch was thrown. He would take away hits simply by being able to play so deep and being in the right place, with no need to jump or dive
<< <i>
<< <i>I would say 1999 is his best chance for that claim >>
Not even close to Martinez. . .
>>
???
OPS+
Jeter 153
Martinez 152
Situational Batter Runs
Jeter 60
Martinez 37
Martinez was a full time DH
Jeter was a full time SS
Baserunning, Jeter > Martinez
That is a very sound victory for Jeter in that comparison.
Far better than Jeter
<< <i>Actually, it was was negative 100. No hits in two at bats
Far better than Jeter >>
LOL. I didn't think of that at all!
If you put Pedro's pitching into terms of Runs Prevented above the average pitcher, and compare it to Jeter's Run Prouced(hitting) vs. the average hitter, it looks like this...
Pedro 69
Jeter 60
But then Jeter's defensive value has to be taken into account. While it is true that he was a below average defender for a SS, he is an above average defender for a MLB player(which is the positional difficulty). Some analysts credit the ability to play SS as an extra 20 runs when comparing to a 1B or LF. That may be a bit high though. On average, vs all the postions it is probably an extra 8 runs.
But then it probably drops with his below average production for his position.
However, if baserunning is added with it, it closes up a bit.
Pedro was a bit low in IP compared to the top guy's...which is what brings his value down a bit.
<< <i>
BTW- I did spit out my drink in laughter when I read your comment about Jeter playing another 8-10 years- that was great!
All in all it was an excellent response Dan
>>
Paul,
perhaps you need a pic of a sharp looking deputy badge in your sig
It all comes down to health as we all know. Jeter has made it clear that he wants to and will play as long as he is productive.
Derek's remarkable consistentcy over his 14 years is his hallmark.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
He will prolly get a 4 yr contract then when that ends he will get a couple of 1 year contracts or one 2 yr.
By then he will be 41?
I guess it is possible he plays even more. Perhaps until he is 43-45.
The problem is where (what position) Can anyone see him at 1st base late in his career? Say in 3 years?
Steve
Thinking about the all the Yankee greats and Jeter's role and place on that illustrious list. And why we are talking about this now?
Obviously because of Jeter surpassing Gehrig. Otherwise this topic is IMO, premature.
If many want to put Jeter on a pedestal up there with the likes of The Babe, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle. Be my guest. History has a way of
making things clearer, and right now Jeter, has just completed another chapter, his book is still being written.
This thread got me to thinking about all the great Yankee hitters the we've all grown to know.
And I was trying to place all the all-time Yankee hitters on an overall list of the greatest MLB hitters of all-time.
My Yankee list of all-time-hitters began to shrink!
I pulled this interesting list from a baseball Website/Blog and found it to be interesting. Just one Yankee, Ruth made his list.
MLB top hitters list:
#1 (tie) Pete Rose - The All Time Hit King. Just like Cobb, Rose wasn’t well-liked by many fellow ball players, but like Cobb as well, his numbers don’t lie.
•Most career hits 4,256
•Most career singles 3,215
•Most runs, doubles, and walks by a switch hitter
•Most career runs 2,165
•17-time All Star
•NL Rookie of the year
•Only player to play 500 games at five different positions
These are just a few of the accomplishments from Peter Edward Rose’s career.
A Rose quote “I’d walk through hell in a gasoline suit to keep playing baseball.”
It almost seems that it is what he is going to have to do since being banned from baseball in 1989 because of a gambling controversy. Still today, Mr. Rose is not allowed in baseball or allowed into the hallowed grounds of the Hall of Fame.
#1 (tie) Hank Aaron – You cannot have a top ten hitters list and leave Hammerin' Hank Aaron off of your list. Hank hit for power and average and did both very well. Aaron finished his career with 3,771 hits, 755 home runs, and a average of .305. Pork chop was one of many nicknames he picked up thru out his career; this one coming while playing ball in the negro leagues, and only eating pork chops when he traveled with the team. Hank Aaron was still able to put up great numbers despite having to face racial issues even into the 1970’s. Sports Illustrated summed it up best with the following quote - "Is this to be the year in which Aaron, at the age of thirty-nine, takes a moon walk above one of the most hallowed individual records in American sport...? Or will it be remembered as the season in which Aaron, the most dignified of athletes, was besieged with hate mail and trapped by the cobwebs and goblins that lurk in baseball's attic?"
#2 Ty Cobb – The “Georgia Peach” held the title of most career hits for almost half a century which at one time was thought of as an unbreakable task. Cobb, was not the most liked player in the game, but you can’t ignore his numbers. Cobb entered the Hall of Fame with 4,191 hits and a career average of .367.
#3 Ted Williams – Batted a career .344 average despite having to leave Major League Baseball twice to serve in World War II and the Korean War. This Boston left fielder also had 1,839 RBI’s, 2 Triple Crowns, and an outstanding on base percentage of .483. All of these numbers even after Williams had to sit out 2 full seasons due to injuries, as well as being out of baseball because of the two wars; time spent away from baseball due to WWII during the prime of his career as well. To put a story book ending on this great career, Williams was able to supply his own great ending hitting a Home Run in his final at bat in 1960. Williams was a real hero and a salute to all our soldiers past and present.
#4 Babe Ruth – Known as a prolific power hitter, Ruth was also a consistent hitter. Babe might not have had 3,000 career hits, but he started his career off as a pitcher. An injury took care of The Babe's pitching career, but Boston wanted him to stick around and play a little outfield. This move proved to be wise for both sides as Babe went on to be one of the best hitters of all time. Ruth finished his career hitting .342; a stat that is unheard of from a power hitter.
#5 Stan Musial – The best way to pitch to Musial was summed up by one pitcher saying he would throw him 4 wide ones then try to pick him off at first base. A very consistent hitter, Musial had exactly 1,815 hits at home and exactly 1,815 hits on the road. Playing 22 seasons for St. Louis, Musial would end his career with 3,630 hits and an amazing 1,377 of those were Extra-Base hits.
#6 Tony Gwynn – Gwynn made a career out of being a consistent contact hitter. Gwynn loved to hit the ball between the third baseman and shortstop in an area he called the 5.5 hole. Gwynn, a 8 time batting title champion was nicknamed "Captian Video" for his devotion to improvement. Gwynn loved to study video of himself and other great players as well and he never batted under .300 in any full season. Tony Gwynn finished his career with 3,141 hits and a career average of .338.
#7 Tris Speaker – If you are like me you might not recognize this name right off. If you are a hard nose baseball stat person you may know Speaker as being 5th on the All-Time Career Hits List. Speaker played from 1907 through 1928 and may not be a household name, but his career numbers make him deserving of this list. Not only did Tris Speaker have 3,514 career hits he also maintained a .345 career batting average. This is not bad considering he played only 21 seasons.
#8 Carl Yastrzemski – With big shoes to fill Carl had the honor of replacing the great Ted Williams in Boston. Yaz accepted that task and filled those shoes. Yaz was a 18 time all star, the AL Triple Crown award winner in 1967, and winner of numerous batting titles. Career numbers for Carl Yastrzemski include 3,419 hits, 1,157 Extra-Base Hits, and 452 Home Runs.
#9 Willie Mays – Would you believe it if I told you that the "Say Hey Kid" started his career 0-12 at the plate? It was his Lucky 13th at-bat that started his career off right. It was that at-bat when Willie Mays unleashed a homer over the left field wall giving a jump start to his storied career. Willie later waltzed into the Hall Of Fame with 3,283 hits and an impressive 660 home runs.
#10 Cal Ripken Jr.– A fact that few may know is that Cal was baseball’s tallest shortstop standing at a whopping 6’4” tall, and also the cutest eyes in baseball according to my girlfriend. But she gets Ripken and Nolan Ryan confused so what does she know? Ripken, the Iron Man of baseball, knew a few things about hitting that he acquired from his father. Ripken Junior played his entire 20 year career in Baltimore before retiring with stats that included 3,189 hits and 1,078 Extra-Base Hits.
Top All-Time Hitters Honorable Mention
•Honus Wagner
•Paul Molitor
•George Brett
•Robin Yount
•Cap Anson
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<< <i>Thinking about the all the Yankee greats and Jeter's role and place on that illustrious list. And why we are talking about this now?
Obviously because of Jeter surpassing Gehrig. Otherwise this topic is IMO, premature.
>>
I could not agree more and I have said it before. Rob Neyer is a dope writing an article analyzing Jeter's place in Yankee lore when he still has a hell alot of career to go.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Rose accomplished many things as a player. However, playing 500 games at 5 positions is a negative, not a positive. He kept moving to different positions because he was not good enough to play the previous one. Lots of guys could accomplish that feat, but stayed at a more demanding postions. ARod and Jeter could play seven different positions; they don't do it because they are kept in the more demanding ones.
Of course all have views as to which stats are more significant, and the degree of importance each particular aspect has, however
Almost all baseball "experts" rate Ruth, Cobb, or Williams as the best hitter ever, if PEDS are not an issue, Barry Bonds would join those three.
In addition, the omission of Jimmy Foxx and/or Rogers Hornsby in any top ten list, seems very incorrect, plus Honus Wagner was not only a better SS defender and base runner than Ripken, he was a truly a better hitter as well.
<< <i>I think he can play another 6 years.
He will prolly get a 4 yr contract then when that ends he will get a couple of 1 year contracts or one 2 yr.
By then he will be 41?
I guess it is possible he plays even more. Perhaps until he is 43-45.
The problem is where (what position) Can anyone see him at 1st base late in his career? Say in 3 years?
Steve >>
I would think a mix of 1st base to spell Tex, some RF, some DH, and even a few games at SS.
All of that is premature also as he will be the Yanks SS for at least the next two seasons .... so the 3 year mark that Steve highlited is probably a great pick. With his swing and his hitting style, he will be a consistant hitter well into his early 40's I would think. Barring major injury of course.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Pete Rose tied #1, huh?
Mickey Mantle left off in favor of a number of those selections?????
I guess some people do come to conclusions based on on different perspective and knowledge, and that list comes from the funky mushroom perspective.
Before anyone goes off the deep end, I realize that ARod was the better fielding SS and deferred to Jeter and moved to 3B. I also realize that ARod is probably the better 3B out of the two. But considering the degenerative aspect of ARod's hip injury, at least one more surgical procedure yet to be performed and the presence of Teixeira at 1B for another 6 year, it would only make sense for Jeter to switch to 3B.
There are several other scenarios. ARod could continue at 3B and Jeter could move to 2B if Cano eventually leaves. Jeter could move to the OF (CF or LF) as he has the speed and the arm to play the position. Given the current makeup of the Yankees and reviewing the contracts of several key players, there are few other options.
Posada will probably be resigned and catch and DH next season and assume the DH role fulltime for the 2011 season and become the "backup" catcher to Montero (assuming Montero progresses and they don't make a play for Mauer). Damon will probably be signed for a 1 year deal and DH and play left for the 2010 season (Matsui will not be back). ARod and Jeter will most likely remain in their respective positions for the next 2 seasons at least.
Jeter is the face of the Yankees. It will be his call. The Yankees will do whatever they need to make the likes of Jeter and Rivera happy until they're ready to hang up the spikes. And knowing the way Jeter has been his entire career, he will make the right call.
Ummm I was always under the impression he moved from position to position because the team needed him to.
He was by the way an allstar at all of them too.
IMO it was a positive.
Steve
moved around because he was a liability.
From 1963 to 66 he played 2b. He moved from there to make way for ROY Helms and then Morgan
from 1967 thru 1974 he played either LF or RF
Beginning in 1975 the team asked Pete to play 3rd base, which he did for 5 years.
Only after being traded to Philly was he again moved this time to 1st base. Schmidt was at 3rd btw.
During these years in Philly he also played some OF.
How anyone can say his playing different positions is a negative is beyond me.
Steve
<< <i>That's some list. Of course all have views as to which stats are more significant, and the degree of importance each particular aspect has, however Almost all baseball "experts" rate Ruth, Cobb, or Williams as the best hitter ever, if PEDS are not an issue, Barry Bonds would join those three. In addition, the omission of Jimmy Foxx and/or Rogers Hornsby in any top ten list, seems very incorrect, plus Honus Wagner was not only a better SS defender and base runner than Ripken, he was a truly a better hitter as well.
BTW, here's the link to that list: Baseball's Best Hitters of All-Time
rd
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Even if he was below average defensively, giving the team the flexibility to replace a weak hitting infielder with a good hitting outfielder is a huge advantage. It's why a corner player like Youkilis can have as much defensive value as a middle of the diamond player
There is nothing wrong with Neyer asking where Jeter ranks as of 2009. Obviously taking a step back can give better prospective. But it isn't hard to know exactly what he has done when he has been on the field from 1996 to 2009. And to ask if it is more than what Berra or Ford has done in their careers is a perfectly reasonable question. To think that makes someone a dope requires a certain amount of ignorance or idiocy
Jeter's only possible positions after shortstop will be firstbase or DH, maybe leftfield. He still hasn't lost any defensive ability, so he might be able to last longer than most people think. But once he loses a step of range, his arm will not let him play anywhere else
There is a sufficient amount of people who wouldn't put Cobb in top three hitters, even before Bonds. If everyone agrees every hitter in the past 50 years doesn't come close to a World War I era hitter, something is wrong. For one example, Mantle was close to Mays overall despite not being close defensively. . .
Trevor Hoffman # 1, above Mariano Rivera, and Hoyt Wilhelm not even in the top ten, ???
It is a bit rude, uncivil, or childish, to insult any one's opinions and views, or shout "liar" at a governmental speaker or a poster herein.
Still the accuracy of both lists, seems somewhat invalid, in my view.
I will try to put this in simple terms. Rose started as a 2nd baseman. He was moved off 2nd because he was a lousy defensive 2nd baseman. Middle infielders who can hit are gold-you never move one who can handle the position defensively. He went to the outfield, then to 3rd base. Third is a more demanding position than the OF, so this is a plus for Rose. He was a poor defensive 3rd baseman, and eventually moved to first. In his last few years he played only because he was the manager. Most teams have no use for a singles hitting first basemen.
There are many players throughout baseball history who were good enough to play 500 games at five different positions; they did not do so, as it made more sense to leave them in the more challenging spot. Rose moved around because he was not much of a defensive player. The move to 3rd was a move to a tougher position, the others were to easier slots on the defensive spectrum.
His flexibility and willingness to move around were good, but he would never have left 2nd base if he could have handled it defensively.
Steve
<< <i>Rose moved around because he was not much of a defensive player >>
But he was very good at both leftfield and rightfield. He moved back to the infield because that was by far the best lineup for the Reds. There were people in the organization, the media and among fans who thought it would kill them, but Anderson was proved correct
<< <i>I'll put it in even simpler terms. You are great at revising history.
What history did I revise? Which statement is incorrect?
Perhaps it is possible that Pete outgrew the position? I mean he was 21 years old when he began his career there.
I would not say he was a lousy 2nd baseman, I never saw him play there, so like you, it would be conjecture.
Unless of course you saw him play there? Or are you going by some silly numbers that Bill James has come up with?
He was moved to other positions so the Reds could get guys like Helms, Driessen, Griffey and Foster into the lineup.
To me that is a positive,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,not a negative.
He moved for the good of the team. NOT because he was lousy at each previous position (like you mentioned)
He was an allstar at each Position at least 1x. His versatility is the reason he was moved so often NOT his lousy play like you
claim. Maybe it was because he was good enough at any position that they put him as opposed to his lousy play at every previous position?
Towards the end of his career he was chasing Ty Cobb and that is why he was in the lineup (or did you forget that)
He was a player-Manager for what 2-3 years?
Pete was many things but his play at 5 different positions should not be construed as a negative IMO.
Steve
Wow! Jeter now has 6 more hits than Bill Buckner. Impressive!
As one writer I read put this topic into a proper perspective.
rd
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