Edit to add- The reason being that 1) I made a deal, and 2) It's my own fault for not doing research and finding out what the thing is worth. But I agree with Nathaniel, give the buyer a chance to back out if he wants to. >>
There are a few responses in this thread from people that have previously whined about losing $5 or less on postage, a lost card or whatever. Now we are talking about losing $4,000 and these same people are saying they would accept the loss.
Come on. Who do you think you are fooling? Even if I was a Bill Gates I wouldn't accept a 4k loss on an item that was basically just listed wrong. I doubt any here would either.
<< <i>Nick you are reading into it too much. The 'expert' saw it after it ended.
It was listed in the wrong category and that is why only 1 bidder saw it.
The bottom line is the question was simple. The seller did not know what he had and the buyer may or may not have known either.
All we know is that an item that should sell for 5k 'easily' sold for 1000.00 and the expert in that series told the seller ( before he mailed it).
Steve >>
listed in the wrong category - people really search by category? if you are looking for Babe Ruth psa/dna don't people just type in 'ruth psa/dna' and you get everything listed with that in the title in all categories? I use a generic category for most of my listings and don't have a problem with people finding them.
<< <i>There are a few responses in this thread from people that have previously whined about losing $5 or less on postage, a lost card or whatever. Now we are talking about losing $4,000 and these same people are saying they would accept the loss.
Come on. Who do you think you are fooling? Even if I was a Bill Gates I wouldn't accept a 4k loss on an item that was basically just listed wrong. I doubt any here would either. >>
Good Day, I agree with all who Man Up and say they wouldn't complete the deal. As stated this is real money, I am not completing the deal. Don't know exactly how that looks, but bottom line I am not leaving 5K on the table. Wouldn't happen !!!
Vise Versa, I have had the same thing happen with $1/$100 items before. I had some sort of early 70's Wacky Packages Checklist Spelling Version that I picked up a stack of, had no idea, looked them up and no mention of any variation, and started listing them for $1 and BIN of $5. Listed 1/2 dozen and they were gone with BIN in minutes!!! So I knew something was up, so stopped listing them. Still had 20-30. Get an E-Mail later that day from one of the guys who bought the BIN's explaining that they were a Rare spelling variation and should sell for $65-$100 each. So list the rest at auction over the nest few weeks, sell all for at least $50, some as high as $100. And the 6 guys who bought theirs at $5 each, got them without even a mention of what transpired.
So its all relative to the amount we are talking about.
Neil
Actually Collect Non Sport, but am just so full of myself I post all over the place !!!!!!!
I had an ebayer (started a thread on this when it happened) a few weeks ago message me right after I listed a BIN, telling me I had it too cheap and it should sell for quite a bit more. I changed the BIN and sold for more than double my original BIN. If someone had bought it at the lower price before I changed it, I would have honored it. But this is only talking about a 65 dollar difference. $4000? I'd take the neg and relist it without a doubt.
I'm serious when I say that I would complete the deal. Think about the following situation:
Say I put an ad in craigslist selling a sofa for $1000. Somebody comes over, looks at it, says he'll take it, we shake hands and he hands me the money, then says he'll be back with a truck to pick it up. In waiting for him to come back with the truck another interested buyer notifies me it's a very desired vintage designer sofa and is worth $5k. So you're telling me that I should give the guy's money back and say I changed my mind when he comes back with the truck?
The fact that this is an ebay transaction makes it easy for the seller to back out, but it doesn't make it right. You agreed on a price, shook the guy's hand (through ebay) and made a deal. Follow through. Anything that happens after the deal is struck is irrelevant.
I also think there is a lot of hypocrisy going on here. I would venture to guess that 90% of the people who are saying they would back out if they were the seller in this situation would be up in arms and immediately start a thread about this "scumbag seller" if a seller did this this to them after an auction ended.
a few hundred bucks is no big deal, a few thousand, you def. pause. If i could get a dupe without the error etc. and the buyer wasnt aware of the difference i guess i'd swap it out lol.
<< <i>I also think there is a lot of hypocrisy going on here. I would venture to guess that 90% of the people who are saying they would back out if they were the seller in this situation would be up in arms and immediately start a thread about this "scumbag seller" if a seller did this this to them after an auction ended. >>
Sad but absolutely true.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>I'm serious when I say that I would complete the deal. Think about the following situation:
Say I put an ad in craigslist selling a sofa for $1000. Somebody comes over, looks at it, says he'll take it, we shake hands and he hands me the money, then says he'll be back with a truck to pick it up. In waiting for him to come back with the truck another interested buyer notifies me it's a very desired vintage designer sofa and is worth $5k. So you're telling me that I should give the guy's money back and say I changed my mind when he comes back with the truck?
The fact that this is an ebay transaction makes it easy for the seller to back out, but it doesn't make it right. You agreed on a price, shook the guy's hand (through ebay) and made a deal. Follow through. Anything that happens after the deal is struck is irrelevant.
I also think there is a lot of hypocrisy going on here. I would venture to guess that 90% of the people who are saying they would back out if they were the seller in this situation would be up in arms and immediately start a thread about this "scumbag seller" if a seller did this this to them after an auction ended.
There would be people on this site who after getting the $5k coin for $1k complain about the shipping label saying $6.97 when the guy charged him $7.50 as well
<< <i>Say I put an ad in craigslist selling a sofa for $1000. Somebody comes over, looks at it, says he'll take it, we shake hands and he hands me the money, then says he'll be back with a truck to pick it up. In waiting for him to come back with the truck another interested buyer notifies me it's a very desired vintage designer sofa and is worth $5k. So you're telling me that I should give the guy's money back and say I changed my mind when he comes back with the truck? >>
Yes. You didn't mislead the guy, you just have new information that you didn't have when you made the sale. A small price difference, you complete the sale. But if price increases 400%, you sell to the antique couch dealer.
One ebay, of course, you'd end up with a neg. So the increased price has to be high enough to warrant a neg. $4000 for me is high enough.
On the couch deal-Complete the sale with buyer #1. You shook his hand and took his money, and the fact that another deal came along after the fact shouldn't change anything.
Depends on how big the couch guy is - if $4K leaves me with money after doctors fees and lost work time, go for it. I'm poor - therefore I have a price.
Looking for rare Randy Moss rookies and autos, as well as '97 PMG Red Football cards for my set.
Amazing how little "ethics" many people === even ones that are respected,,,,,,,,,,,,,show when money is involved,,,,,, something about involving money changes people and turns their normal selves into someone totally unfamiliar to those closest to them,,,,, it makes people you would let watch your kids for a whole day ,,,,,,turn into people you wouldn't leave your pet hamster with,,,,,,
I do not care if an item turned out to be a rare variety,,,, or the monetary difference in price I could have realized,,,,,,
If I personally am too stupid to have done my homework on an item I was selling-- thats my problem-- not the buyers,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Deal should be completed, buyer thanked for their business, and I would move on with my life,,,,,, and make a mental note on any future stuff where I am not a "certified" expert in that I'd consult a pro,,,,, this way on FUTURE sales that issue would never crop up again,,,,,,,
<< <i>Amazing how little "ethics" many people === even ones that are respected,,,,,,,,,,,,,show when money is involved,,,,,, something about involving money changes people and turns their normal selves into someone totally unfamiliar to those closest to them,,,,, it makes people you would let watch your kids for a whole day ,,,,,,turn into people you wouldn't leave your pet hamster with,,,,,, >>
Call me unethical,,,,,,, that is fine But I'll be,,,,,,,,,,,, $4000 richer,,,,,,,,than you
If you'd lose sleep over this, then complete the damn sale. I would not lose any sleep and I'm being honest.
And I'd bet my pet hamster that if faced with this situation, you'd back out of the deal, too.
It is very easy to sit in front of the computer a say what the right thing to do is. Everyone has their own reasons and beliefs for the decisions they make. Just because you might not agree with them does not make them a bad, dishonest, or unethical person.
As already stated, the seller isn't obligated to complete the sale. The contract was for X, and the product is actually Y. If Y were worth less than X, I seriously doubt anyone would argue that the seller should ship the item anyway because the buyer should have done his homework.
Also, if someone makes two trips to my place and arranges for a truck, they've invested a lot more time than some ebayer who typed in a search and clicked a mouse. In that scenario, I would be willing to eat more money or at the very least would compensate the buyer nicely for his time plus expenses. I'd compensate the ebayer too, but not as much.
Flipping it around, if I see a box of 86 Fleer Basketball at a garage sale for $50, and right after I hand over the money someone tells the seller what it's really worth, no way in hades would I expect the seller to complete the deal. They would be insane to sell it at that price once they knew what they had. And in that case, we're not even talking about a rare variation.
If I can profit from advanced knowledge of a collectible, great--I'll do it every time--but I don't expect people to knowingly hand me goods worth thousands of dollars at 25% of market value. Doesn't happen.
Again, i point out how opinions change about subjects when WE are involved and not looking in from the outside. It is easy to say what one would do when you are not actually involved in a situation. Some very interesting takes here.
<< <i>Again, i point out how opinions change about subjects when WE are involved and not looking in from the outside. It is easy to say what one would do when you are not actually involved in a situation. Some very interesting takes here. >>
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Obviously, only the folks who say they would "complete the transaction" would be in a position to decide whether or not to change their position.
Folks who say and KNOW they would not give away thousands of dollars based on a "mistake" would have no need to modify their position.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>Again, i point out how opinions change about subjects when WE are involved and not looking in from the outside. It is easy to say what one would do when you are not actually involved in a situation. Some very interesting takes here. >>
/////////////////////////////
Obviously, only the folks who say they would "complete the transaction" would be in a position to decide whether or not to change their position.
Folks who say and KNOW they would not give away thousands of dollars based on a "mistake" would have no need to modify their position. >>
what if I found this coin in the street and have nothing into it and the 1k on the sale is pure profit. I'd be happy with the 1k. if the buyer flips it and makes 4k then good for him.
and to some leaving 4k on the table may be $20 to them and not a big issue.
when a seller makes a mistake in the listing they are often off the hook but when a buyer makes a mistake in his bid and doesn't pay everyone adds them to the blocked bidder list.
To those that say they would always complete the deal, suppose the amount was higher? Say instead of
5k loss the potential loss was 50k Still going to do the deal?
Steve
Fair question.
Actually what I'd probably do is explain to the buyer the situation and offer him half the sale price through a major auction house; I could not see any reasonable person turning down this solution. This is generally the way I handle things with a seller when I buy a card and it gets lost in the mail- I offer to split the cost of the card so neither of us get hurt too bad (even though I am obviously under no obligation to do so).
Assuming for whatever reason this was not an option- I guess for me it would come to a point where I would evaluate how much the money could improve my family's life vs. how much the guilt would weigh on my conscience. $4k isn't nearly enough. For $50k+ I'd give it serious consideration. That's a year at a good college for my kid, or a great start to a retirement fund. Is that worth the guilt of what I would consider screwing someone over on a card deal? Probably. I would definitely compensate the buyer in some significant way so he wasn't completely screwed, but I would never rationalize it in my head that what I did with regards to this deal was "the right thing".
To take an extreme example, if I was told I had to rob a 7-11 or someone close to me would be killed, I'd obviously rob the 7-11. That doesn't mean I'd be happy about robbing the 7-11 or convince myself that robbing 7-11's is generally ok to do.
<< <i>Is that worth the guilt of what I would consider screwing someone over on a card deal? >>
Looks like the central issue is whether or not the seller feels he is "screwing someone over". I don't think the buyer has been screwed here. Inconvenienced, maybe - screwed, no.
I don't think the buyer has been screwed here. Inconvenienced, maybe - screwed, no.
So as a buyer, if you bought a card for $1,000 and had a buyer lined up with $5,000 in hand, you wouldn't feel screwed over if the seller tells you he's not completing the deal because he didn't know what he had? Please. You'd be in his face telling him he entered a contract when he put the card on ebay, he needs to complete the deal or you'll report him, blah blah blah.
You've made it clear that the $4,000 is your central issue, so I have a hard time believing you would only feel "inconvenienced" if your $4k flip was snatched away after you had already counted your money. You cannot honestly sit here and say that you wouldn't be pissed or have felt cheated in some way.
If I was the buyer I would fully expect the seller to follow through, so that is how I would act as the seller in the same situation. The terms shouldn't change depending on what side of the coin you're on.
You can twist this fictitious ebay auction any way you want to, but in my opinion an error was made by not describing the item correctly, thus allowing the seller to back out.
You cannot compare a variety of a rare card ebay auction, to a designer couch sale on craigs list, can you?
Let's make believe, we had an old 20 pound bar of silver, that was stamped 1950 on it!
You auction it on ebay, as "a rare 20 LB bar of silver dated 1950".
Some kind person sends you a message, letting you know that the stamp on the 1950 bar on the bottom is stamped "p". And to your astonishment the bar turns out to be a 20 pound bar of Platinum.
Now what would you do?
Honor the auction winner, or cancel because the item turned out to be "not as described"? You did not do your homework, just as with the other (Steve's) example.
1. if it was a coin say a half dollar send it in PWE but first push the half out of the envelope ripping one end put invoice in envelope put about a buck postage on it drop in mailbox. blame it on the postman send refund and then contact auction house.
2. finish the deal, especially if you found the half with a metal detector and have nothing in the half.
3. just tell the buyer to take a flying leap, take neg and move on.
4. tell them the dog ate it and ran away.
5. ignore 1-4 and do what you want as this is the way of the world (sadly).
<< <i>So as a buyer, if you bought a card for $1,000 and had a buyer lined up with $5,000 in hand, you wouldn't feel screwed over if the seller tells you he's not completing the deal because he didn't know what he had? Please. You'd be in his face telling him he entered a contract when he put the card on ebay, he needs to complete the deal or you'll report him, blah blah blah. >>
Actually, I'd feel that I was trying to screw the seller. If I knew it was worth far more than $1K and already had a buyer lined up to turn a quick $4K profit, then I'd be doing more wrong as the buyer than the seller would for backing out. The difference IMO is that I know the value and am hoping the seller doesn't realize it, while the buyer does not know the true value and has made an honest mistake.
If someone on this board bought a $5,000 item that was wrongly described for $1,000, we would see a thread and everyone else would chime in with their praises for the purchase and thoughts on how stupid the seller was. Plus images like this...
<< <i>To those that say they would always complete the deal, suppose the amount was higher? Say instead of
5k loss the potential loss was 50k Still going to do the deal?
Steve
Fair question.
Actually what I'd probably do is explain to the buyer the situation and offer him half the sale price through a major auction house; I could not see any reasonable person turning down this solution. This is generally the way I handle things with a seller when I buy a card and it gets lost in the mail- I offer to split the cost of the card so neither of us get hurt too bad (even though I am obviously under no obligation to do so).
Assuming for whatever reason this was not an option- I guess for me it would come to a point where I would evaluate how much the money could improve my family's life vs. how much the guilt would weigh on my conscience. $4k isn't nearly enough. For $50k+ I'd give it serious consideration. That's a year at a good college for my kid, or a great start to a retirement fund. Is that worth the guilt of what I would consider screwing someone over on a card deal? Probably. I would definitely compensate the buyer in some significant way so he wasn't completely screwed, but I would never rationalize it in my head that what I did with regards to this deal was "the right thing".
To take an extreme example, if I was told I had to rob a 7-11 or someone close to me would be killed, I'd obviously rob the 7-11. That doesn't mean I'd be happy about robbing the 7-11 or convince myself that robbing 7-11's is generally ok to do.
Lee >>
I wouldn't feel screwed over. I'm not in the card biz as part of my application to the seminary--- I'm in it to profit maximize. And FWIW, I've been in the situation that SDavid described many, many times-- i.e., where I reach an agreement with a seller, money changes hands, and then the seller backs out because 'they realize what they have' and refunds my dough-- and it has never once occured to me that the seller might be doing something unethical.
One of my major revenue sources comes from finding items that are priced incorrectly, for one reason or another, so I'm on the ass-end of this scenario far more often than I'm on the long end, and it has never once crossed my mind that the seller is doing something wrong when they back out. And they do back out; I've had this happen to me at least 15 times in the calendar year, and maybe even more (15 that I can count off hand, but I'm drunk right now so I may be missing some). When a seller renegs I laugh it off, and in a way I'm happy for them that they finallly realized what they have. By the same token, if I were ever in a situation where I 'realized what I have', I'd reneg and not think twice--- and if the buyer pitched a b**ch I'd tell him to pound sand, and I'd sleep like a baby afterwards.
Selling..... research should be done BEFORE you make an auction or accept an offer...
Last card I listed on eBay, I got a $12.50 highbid on a $200+ card (1946 Sears Postcard of Luke Sewell autographed), but I still went through with the deal (and winner sure got one hell of a deal). Sometimes you get burnt selling super rare stuff on eBay that 99% of collectors dont know much about.
But it also works the other way too...... I have far more good deals buying, than bad deals selling.
My best alltime eBay deal..... $40 for a 1906 Ullman Postcard of Christy Mathewson that I sold right away for $2K+
1. Most people are ethical only if they can afford to be ethical. It is in fact, the "less drastic" situation that causes people to be unethical. For example, if someone "lost" the winning lottery ticket, I would be more likely to return it than if I had "found" a $20.00 bill on the floor.
2. Personally, as the seller, I would just sell the item at the stated price. Likewise, I would just purchase the item at the stated price.
3. My opinion is that the "item not as described" only applies to purposeful deceit that would favor the seller and not to negligent mistakes that would be adverse to the seller.
I've never been on either end of a situation like this and cards/collectibles are nothing more than a triviality to me...... but:
- In terms of what boopotts and storm are saying, if this type of situation is normal and part of the way I make my living, I would either have to change professions or adjust my moral code. I'd be leaning towards changing professions, but that's just me.
- TomGshotput said it best: I'm still trying to figure out a situation where I would not do sufficient research on a four figure transaction I can honestly never see this happening to me as a seller of goods. As a buyer, I'd feel screwed if someone backed out of an agreed upon transaction for any reason.
- Steve said Then the terms should not change whatever the amount is. I was trying to illustrate how they can. Sometimes the positive effects of a negative action will outweigh the negatives. If it became a decision where you could save a busload of 8th graders by stealing a pack of gum, you would steal a pack of gum. That certainly doesn't make stealing gum a good thing to do. Can you honestly say you would never steal a pack of gum under any circumstances? Well, stealing gum is wrong, correct?
Comments
Steve
<< <i>I complete the deal.
Edit to add- The reason being that 1) I made a deal, and 2) It's my own fault for not doing research and finding out what the thing is worth. But I agree with Nathaniel, give the buyer a chance to back out if he wants to. >>
LEE MR ETHICS LOL
guy who pisses off more people than anyone...
Come on. Who do you think you are fooling? Even if I was a Bill Gates I wouldn't accept a 4k loss on an item that was basically just listed wrong. I doubt any here would either.
<< <i>Nick you are reading into it too much. The 'expert' saw it after it ended.
It was listed in the wrong category and that is why only 1 bidder saw it.
The bottom line is the question was simple. The seller did not know what he had and the buyer may or may not have known either.
All we know is that an item that should sell for 5k 'easily' sold for 1000.00 and the expert in that series told the seller ( before he mailed it).
Steve >>
listed in the wrong category - people really search by category? if you are looking for Babe Ruth psa/dna don't people just type in 'ruth psa/dna' and you get everything listed with that in the title in all categories? I use a generic category for most of my listings and don't have a problem with people finding them.
Whatever, the original question stated it sold for 1000.00 not the 5k it easily should have. Who cares why no one caught it.
maybe it was spelled wrong, maybe half the country was blacked out that night, maybe the other half don't collect cards.
None of that was in the original question.
Steve
Scott I can think of 2 people who piss off more people then anyone and Lee is not named Steve and Scott.
Steve
Thanks for all the replies guys.
It appears that by a 2 to 1 margin folks would follow through.
Thanks again.
Steve
<< <i>There are a few responses in this thread from people that have previously whined about losing $5 or less on postage, a lost card or whatever. Now we are talking about losing $4,000 and these same people are saying they would accept the loss.
Come on. Who do you think you are fooling? Even if I was a Bill Gates I wouldn't accept a 4k loss on an item that was basically just listed wrong. I doubt any here would either. >>
Good Day, I agree with all who Man Up and say they wouldn't complete the deal. As stated this is real money, I am not completing the deal. Don't know exactly how that looks, but bottom line I am not leaving 5K on the table. Wouldn't happen !!!
Vise Versa, I have had the same thing happen with $1/$100 items before. I had some sort of early 70's Wacky Packages Checklist Spelling Version that I picked up a stack of, had no idea, looked them up and no mention of any variation, and started listing them for $1 and BIN of $5. Listed 1/2 dozen and they were gone with BIN in minutes!!! So I knew something was up, so stopped listing them. Still had 20-30. Get an E-Mail later that day from one of the guys who bought the BIN's explaining that they were a Rare spelling variation and should sell for $65-$100 each. So list the rest at auction over the nest few weeks, sell all for at least $50, some as high as $100.
And the 6 guys who bought theirs at $5 each, got them without even a mention of what transpired.
So its all relative to the amount we are talking about.
Neil
<< <i>I think we can drop the hypothetical here...so what's the scoop on what actually happened? >>
Agreed. The anticipation is keeeeeling me.
ebay i.d. clydecoolidge - Lots of vintage stars and HOFers, raw, condition fully disclosed.
Say I put an ad in craigslist selling a sofa for $1000. Somebody comes over, looks at it, says he'll take it, we shake hands and he hands me the money, then says he'll be back with a truck to pick it up. In waiting for him to come back with the truck another interested buyer notifies me it's a very desired vintage designer sofa and is worth $5k. So you're telling me that I should give the guy's money back and say I changed my mind when he comes back with the truck?
The fact that this is an ebay transaction makes it easy for the seller to back out, but it doesn't make it right. You agreed on a price, shook the guy's hand (through ebay) and made a deal. Follow through. Anything that happens after the deal is struck is irrelevant.
I also think there is a lot of hypocrisy going on here. I would venture to guess that 90% of the people who are saying they would back out if they were the seller in this situation would be up in arms and immediately start a thread about this "scumbag seller" if a seller did this this to them after an auction ended.
Lee
<< <i>I also think there is a lot of hypocrisy going on here. I would venture to guess that 90% of the people who are saying they would back out if they were the seller in this situation would be up in arms and immediately start a thread about this "scumbag seller" if a seller did this this to them after an auction ended. >>
Sad but absolutely true.
<< <i>I'm serious when I say that I would complete the deal. Think about the following situation:
Say I put an ad in craigslist selling a sofa for $1000. Somebody comes over, looks at it, says he'll take it, we shake hands and he hands me the money, then says he'll be back with a truck to pick it up. In waiting for him to come back with the truck another interested buyer notifies me it's a very desired vintage designer sofa and is worth $5k. So you're telling me that I should give the guy's money back and say I changed my mind when he comes back with the truck?
The fact that this is an ebay transaction makes it easy for the seller to back out, but it doesn't make it right. You agreed on a price, shook the guy's hand (through ebay) and made a deal. Follow through. Anything that happens after the deal is struck is irrelevant.
I also think there is a lot of hypocrisy going on here. I would venture to guess that 90% of the people who are saying they would back out if they were the seller in this situation would be up in arms and immediately start a thread about this "scumbag seller" if a seller did this this to them after an auction ended.
Lee >>
Nail on head.
<< <i>Say I put an ad in craigslist selling a sofa for $1000. Somebody comes over, looks at it, says he'll take it, we shake hands and he hands me the money, then says he'll be back with a truck to pick it up. In waiting for him to come back with the truck another interested buyer notifies me it's a very desired vintage designer sofa and is worth $5k. So you're telling me that I should give the guy's money back and say I changed my mind when he comes back with the truck? >>
Yes.
You didn't mislead the guy, you just have new information that you didn't have when you made the sale.
A small price difference, you complete the sale. But if price increases 400%, you sell to the antique couch dealer.
One ebay, of course, you'd end up with a neg. So the increased price has to be high enough to warrant a neg.
$4000 for me is high enough.
I do not care if an item turned out to be a rare variety,,,, or the monetary difference in price I could have realized,,,,,,
If I personally am too stupid to have done my homework on an item I was selling-- thats my problem-- not the buyers,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Deal should be completed, buyer thanked for their business, and I would move on with my life,,,,,, and make a mental note on any future stuff where I am not a "certified" expert in that I'd consult a pro,,,,, this way on FUTURE sales that issue would never crop up again,,,,,,,
My own thoughts,,,,,
Jeff
<< <i>jeff you certainly choose your posts very carefully
yes,,,,,,,he,,,,,,,does
"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it"
<< <i>Amazing how little "ethics" many people === even ones that are respected,,,,,,,,,,,,,show when money is involved,,,,,, something about involving money changes people and turns their normal selves into someone totally unfamiliar to those closest to them,,,,, it makes people you would let watch your kids for a whole day ,,,,,,turn into people you wouldn't leave your pet hamster with,,,,,, >>
Call me unethical,,,,,,, that is fine
But I'll be,,,,,,,,,,,, $4000 richer,,,,,,,,than you
If you'd lose sleep over this, then complete the damn sale.
I would not lose any sleep and I'm being honest.
And I'd bet my pet hamster that if faced with this situation, you'd back out of the deal, too.
It is very easy to sit in front of the computer a say what the right thing to do is. Everyone has their own reasons and beliefs for the decisions they make. Just because you might not agree with them does not make them a bad, dishonest, or unethical person.
Also, if someone makes two trips to my place and arranges for a truck, they've invested a lot more time than some ebayer who typed in a search and clicked a mouse. In that scenario, I would be willing to eat more money or at the very least would compensate the buyer nicely for his time plus expenses. I'd compensate the ebayer too, but not as much.
Flipping it around, if I see a box of 86 Fleer Basketball at a garage sale for $50, and right after I hand over the money someone tells the seller what it's really worth, no way in hades would I expect the seller to complete the deal. They would be insane to sell it at that price once they knew what they had. And in that case, we're not even talking about a rare variation.
If I can profit from advanced knowledge of a collectible, great--I'll do it every time--but I don't expect people to knowingly hand me goods worth thousands of dollars at 25% of market value. Doesn't happen.
<< <i>I think a better title would have been 'hypothetical ebay question' not 'ethics'
Steve >>
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Absolutely.
Framed as an "ethics" question, respondents believe that there
is both a "correct" and "socially proper" answer.
Just the word "ethics" turns the hypothetical into push-polling.
Good fun, tho.
The scoop here is in the original post.
Steve
<< <i>Again, i point out how opinions change about subjects when WE are involved and not looking in from the outside. It is easy to say what one would do when you are not actually involved in a situation. Some very interesting takes here. >>
/////////////////////////////
Obviously, only the folks who say they would "complete the transaction"
would be in a position to decide whether or not to change their position.
Folks who say and KNOW they would not give away thousands of dollars
based on a "mistake" would have no need to modify their position.
<< <i>
<< <i>Again, i point out how opinions change about subjects when WE are involved and not looking in from the outside. It is easy to say what one would do when you are not actually involved in a situation. Some very interesting takes here. >>
/////////////////////////////
Obviously, only the folks who say they would "complete the transaction"
would be in a position to decide whether or not to change their position.
Folks who say and KNOW they would not give away thousands of dollars
based on a "mistake" would have no need to modify their position. >>
what if I found this coin in the street and have nothing into it and the 1k on the sale is pure profit. I'd be happy with the 1k. if the buyer flips it and makes 4k then good for him.
and to some leaving 4k on the table may be $20 to them and not a big issue.
when a seller makes a mistake in the listing they are often off the hook but when a buyer makes a mistake in his bid and doesn't pay everyone adds them to the blocked bidder list.
To those that say they would always complete the deal, suppose the amount was higher? Say instead of
5k loss the potential loss was 50k Still going to do the deal?
Steve
5k loss the potential loss was 50k Still going to do the deal?
Steve
Fair question.
Actually what I'd probably do is explain to the buyer the situation and offer him half the sale price through a major auction house; I could not see any reasonable person turning down this solution. This is generally the way I handle things with a seller when I buy a card and it gets lost in the mail- I offer to split the cost of the card so neither of us get hurt too bad (even though I am obviously under no obligation to do so).
Assuming for whatever reason this was not an option- I guess for me it would come to a point where I would evaluate how much the money could improve my family's life vs. how much the guilt would weigh on my conscience. $4k isn't nearly enough. For $50k+ I'd give it serious consideration. That's a year at a good college for my kid, or a great start to a retirement fund. Is that worth the guilt of what I would consider screwing someone over on a card deal? Probably. I would definitely compensate the buyer in some significant way so he wasn't completely screwed, but I would never rationalize it in my head that what I did with regards to this deal was "the right thing".
To take an extreme example, if I was told I had to rob a 7-11 or someone close to me would be killed, I'd obviously rob the 7-11. That doesn't mean I'd be happy about robbing the 7-11 or convince myself that robbing 7-11's is generally ok to do.
Lee
<< <i>Is that worth the guilt of what I would consider screwing someone over on a card deal? >>
Looks like the central issue is whether or not the seller feels he is "screwing someone over".
I don't think the buyer has been screwed here. Inconvenienced, maybe - screwed, no.
So as a buyer, if you bought a card for $1,000 and had a buyer lined up with $5,000 in hand, you wouldn't feel screwed over if the seller tells you he's not completing the deal because he didn't know what he had? Please. You'd be in his face telling him he entered a contract when he put the card on ebay, he needs to complete the deal or you'll report him, blah blah blah.
You've made it clear that the $4,000 is your central issue, so I have a hard time believing you would only feel "inconvenienced" if your $4k flip was snatched away after you had already counted your money. You cannot honestly sit here and say that you wouldn't be pissed or have felt cheated in some way.
If I was the buyer I would fully expect the seller to follow through, so that is how I would act as the seller in the same situation. The terms shouldn't change depending on what side of the coin you're on.
Then the terms should not change whatever the amount is.
IMO the seller made a mistake and can void the listing.
If the buyer wants to sue for damages that is his right.
But under no circumstances am I going to let someone get over on me, regardless if they knew the value or not.
Remember the key here is the seller made a listing error. It has nothing to do with doing ones homework first. We all make mistakes.
Ebay can claim it is a valid contract all they want, yet at the same time claim they are simply a venue.
Steve
Happened to me before in the past, and I just left negative feedback.
If I was in the situation of selling a $5,000 item for $1,000, in my current state I would tell the buyer I misrepresented the item.
If I was well off, then I would gladly sell it for the closed price.
Either way it would have to be where I was sitting at financially in order for me to decide.
$4,000 extra is a lot of money for a 24 year old.
You can twist this fictitious ebay auction any way you want to, but in my opinion an error was made by not describing the item correctly, thus allowing the seller to back out.
You cannot compare a variety of a rare card ebay auction, to a designer couch sale on craigs list, can you?
Let's make believe, we had an old 20 pound bar of silver, that was stamped 1950 on it!
You auction it on ebay, as "a rare 20 LB bar of silver dated 1950".
Some kind person sends you a message, letting you know that the stamp on the 1950 bar on the bottom is stamped "p". And to your astonishment the bar turns out to be a 20 pound bar of Platinum.
Now what would you do?
Honor the auction winner, or cancel because the item turned out to be "not as described"? You did not do your homework, just as with the other (Steve's) example.
rd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
2. finish the deal, especially if you found the half with a metal detector and have nothing in the half.
3. just tell the buyer to take a flying leap, take neg and move on.
4. tell them the dog ate it and ran away.
5. ignore 1-4 and do what you want as this is the way of the world (sadly).
<< <i>So as a buyer, if you bought a card for $1,000 and had a buyer lined up with $5,000 in hand, you wouldn't feel screwed over if the seller tells you he's not completing the deal because he didn't know what he had? Please. You'd be in his face telling him he entered a contract when he put the card on ebay, he needs to complete the deal or you'll report him, blah blah blah. >>
Actually, I'd feel that I was trying to screw the seller. If I knew it was worth far more than $1K and already had a buyer lined up to turn a quick $4K profit, then I'd be doing more wrong as the buyer than the seller would for backing out. The difference IMO is that I know the value and am hoping the seller doesn't realize it, while the buyer does not know the true value and has made an honest mistake.
////////////////////////////////
I really don't see either the buyer or seller doing anything "wrong."
The collectibles biznez has always been a WAR between lowballing
dealers and cherry-picking/sharpshooting buyers.
I support whichever side of the counter I happen to be playing on at
the moment. It is NEVER about "ethics;" it is ALWAYS about money.
ONLY money.
<< <i>To those that say they would always complete the deal, suppose the amount was higher? Say instead of
5k loss the potential loss was 50k Still going to do the deal?
Steve
Fair question.
Actually what I'd probably do is explain to the buyer the situation and offer him half the sale price through a major auction house; I could not see any reasonable person turning down this solution. This is generally the way I handle things with a seller when I buy a card and it gets lost in the mail- I offer to split the cost of the card so neither of us get hurt too bad (even though I am obviously under no obligation to do so).
Assuming for whatever reason this was not an option- I guess for me it would come to a point where I would evaluate how much the money could improve my family's life vs. how much the guilt would weigh on my conscience. $4k isn't nearly enough. For $50k+ I'd give it serious consideration. That's a year at a good college for my kid, or a great start to a retirement fund. Is that worth the guilt of what I would consider screwing someone over on a card deal? Probably. I would definitely compensate the buyer in some significant way so he wasn't completely screwed, but I would never rationalize it in my head that what I did with regards to this deal was "the right thing".
To take an extreme example, if I was told I had to rob a 7-11 or someone close to me would be killed, I'd obviously rob the 7-11. That doesn't mean I'd be happy about robbing the 7-11 or convince myself that robbing 7-11's is generally ok to do.
Lee >>
I wouldn't feel screwed over. I'm not in the card biz as part of my application to the seminary--- I'm in it to profit maximize. And FWIW, I've been in the situation that SDavid described many, many times-- i.e., where I reach an agreement with a seller, money changes hands, and then the seller backs out because 'they realize what they have' and refunds my dough-- and it has never once occured to me that the seller might be doing something unethical.
One of my major revenue sources comes from finding items that are priced incorrectly, for one reason or another, so I'm on the ass-end of this scenario far more often than I'm on the long end, and it has never once crossed my mind that the seller is doing something wrong when they back out. And they do back out; I've had this happen to me at least 15 times in the calendar year, and maybe even more (15 that I can count off hand, but I'm drunk right now so I may be missing some). When a seller renegs I laugh it off, and in a way I'm happy for them that they finallly realized what they have. By the same token, if I were ever in a situation where I 'realized what I have', I'd reneg and not think twice--- and if the buyer pitched a b**ch I'd tell him to pound sand, and I'd sleep like a baby afterwards.
Last card I listed on eBay, I got a $12.50 highbid on a $200+ card (1946 Sears Postcard of Luke Sewell autographed), but I still went through with the deal (and winner sure got one hell of a deal). Sometimes you get burnt selling super rare stuff on eBay that 99% of collectors dont know much about.
But it also works the other way too...... I have far more good deals buying, than bad deals selling.
My best alltime eBay deal..... $40 for a 1906 Ullman Postcard of Christy Mathewson that I sold right away for $2K+
1. Most people are ethical only if they can afford to be ethical. It is in fact, the "less drastic" situation that causes people to be unethical. For example, if someone "lost" the winning lottery ticket, I would be more likely to return it than if I had "found" a $20.00 bill on the floor.
2. Personally, as the seller, I would just sell the item at the stated price. Likewise, I would just purchase the item at the stated price.
3. My opinion is that the "item not as described" only applies to purposeful deceit that would favor the seller and not to negligent mistakes that would be adverse to the seller.
- In terms of what boopotts and storm are saying, if this type of situation is normal and part of the way I make my living, I would either have to change professions or adjust my moral code. I'd be leaning towards changing professions, but that's just me.
- TomGshotput said it best: I'm still trying to figure out a situation where I would not do sufficient research on a four figure transaction
I can honestly never see this happening to me as a seller of goods. As a buyer, I'd feel screwed if someone backed out of an agreed upon transaction for any reason.
- Steve said Then the terms should not change whatever the amount is.
I was trying to illustrate how they can. Sometimes the positive effects of a negative action will outweigh the negatives. If it became a decision where you could save a busload of 8th graders by stealing a pack of gum, you would steal a pack of gum. That certainly doesn't make stealing gum a good thing to do. Can you honestly say you would never steal a pack of gum under any circumstances? Well, stealing gum is wrong, correct?