Hypothetical ethics question.
WinPitcher
Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
Your card auction ends and it realizes the $1000 or so that you expected. You receive an email from a recognized expert on the series stating that the card is a rare variety that is easily worth 5 times the final price. You do a bit of research and confirm that he is correct.
Do you dutifully complete the deal or politely tell the auction winner to take a hike?
If you do follow through on the sale, is there any threshold where you would not, say $8000 or $10,000 or more?
(This hypothetical question was asked elsewhere and I changed it from coins to card)
Steve
Do you dutifully complete the deal or politely tell the auction winner to take a hike?
If you do follow through on the sale, is there any threshold where you would not, say $8000 or $10,000 or more?
(This hypothetical question was asked elsewhere and I changed it from coins to card)
Steve
Good for you.
0
Comments
Edit to add- The reason being that 1) I made a deal, and 2) It's my own fault for not doing research and finding out what the thing is worth. But I agree with Nathaniel, give the buyer a chance to back out if he wants to.
- Offer to settle with Buyer rather than reneg outright.
- Assuming the Buyer is unaware of the rarity, you can purchase a duplicate "common" version. You are not committing fraud, and he is receiving what he willingly bargained for.
I'm not sure this is an ethical situation, really.
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
<< <i>I complete the deal and drink heavily that night. >>
Same here. Gotta do your research before the auction, not after.
1992 Topps FB Golds (72% complete)
1997 Topps FB Minted in Canton (10% complete)
1999 Topps FB Record Numbers Gold (80% complete)
2001 Topps FB MVP Promotion (35% complete)
...............i thought so.
<< <i>
<< <i>I complete the deal and drink heavily that night. >>
Same here. Gotta do your research before the auction, not after. >>
+1 for drink heavily and do research before the auction...
Churchill: “Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?”
Socialite: “My goodness, Mr. Churchill… Well, I suppose… we would have to discuss terms, of course…”
Churchill: “Would you sleep with me for five pounds?”
Socialite: “Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!”
Churchill: “Madam, we’ve already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.”
<< <i>I complete the deal and drink heavily that night. >>
Agreed!
Also, lets assume the buyer knew that it was worth more and was the variety but the seller did not.
Steve
If you're selling it to save your house from foreclosure or something similar then I think you have to do what's best for you.
<< <i>The thing is the seller sold something he did not know about. Therefore how can he and the buyer have a meeting of the minds?
Also, lets assume the buyer knew that it was worth more and was the variety but the seller did not.
Steve >>
If you are the seller you complete the deal. If you are the buyer and you knew, then you found a great deal. It's the sellers' responsibility to do the homework.
Steve
<< <i>The thing is the seller sold something he did not know about. Therefore how can he and the buyer have a meeting of the minds?
Also, lets assume the buyer knew that it was worth more and was the variety but the seller did not.
Steve >>
don't buy either argument. I've heard the meeting of the minds theory before and it has no weight. you list something on ebay and you confirm the listing before it's on and you get an email from ebay saying you listed the item for sale - how many double checks does a person need?
buying knowing it was worth more - then good for him for doing so. seller not knowing the value - he/she is out of luck.
deal is a deal
It is easy to say that when NO real money is at stake.
Please, those that said they would complete the deal that was NOT intended as a slur upon you just an observation.
Steve
That said, I wouldn't complete the deal.
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
It ended at 1000.00 because the more common version is worth that, the card that actually sold was a rare variety which was worth 5x more.
Steve
<< <i>We need a lawyer to chime in here.
Steve >>
Who needs lawyers when you have wikipedia!
See here re: Mistake Doctrine - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistake_(contract_law)
Also, don't tell my firm I just sent this.
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
(1) at the time of entering the contract, one or both parties entered the contract under a mistaken assumption, where the assumption is an assumption basic to the contract, and
(2) one ought not to bear the loss resulting from the mistake.
Note: it is often said that excuse under mistake doctrine requires a mutual mistake, a mistake shared by both parties, but this is clearly not true.
Not from wikipedia.
Nat sorry did not know you were an attorney.
Now for a party to use this defense does he/she have to go to court to get relief?
Or can they simply state this to the buyer and say tuff noogies?
Steve
Steve
Steve,
The fictitious item was auctioned as one thing, but turned out to be a variety?
This variety happened to be worth more than the so called original.
It could have been a variety that could have turned out to be worth much less.
The fact that this fictitious auctioned item turned out to be a rarer variety, worth more than expected,
is not the issue, the auction IMO, should be nullified, and it should be explained to the winning bidder,
that the item is different than was described, and thus the auction is cancelled.
I would not go into more than that. As the item was different than discribed, as it was a variety, and it was not mentioned in the auction.
So the buyer would be out of luck ------- auction nullified! The end!
But, if the item was shipped already, I would explain to the winner,
that it was discovered that the item was a variety, and was not noted in the auction.
I would state, I would be happy to reimburse you for the cost + shipping.
And if the buyer agreed to this, I would immediately refund the buyer,
Letting the buyer know that I've sent him a stamped mailer for his return.
I would apologize to the buyer for the error for not mentioning about the variety in the auction.
But if the buyer told me to "go take a hike", and "a deal is a deal".
I would drop it and let that lucky buyer keep the item without any further action on my part.
P.S. Just remember, the item "was not as described" and turned out to be a variety. The winning bidder might be sad or even mad, but that WAS the case here: "...The item turned out to be different than was described!"
rd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
That was a very well thought out post.
Steve
DISCLAIMER: My view is academic, because I know what I am
buying/selling and I am extremely unlikely to make a BIG error.
............
On EBAY, I do biznez based on principal.........NOT principle.
IF I made a little mistake, I would eat it.
IF I made a BIG mistake, I would refuse to perform.
In the hypothetical, I would find a copy of the item that was advertised
for sale in the WRITTEN portion of the listing. I would deliver that item
to the buyer; if he said it was SNAD, I would know he was likely a
sharpshooter.
I would refund him and leave him to his remedies.
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The hypothetical describes what can simply be argued by the
seller to be "a listing error."
The body copy describes the item the seller intends to offer.
The picture illustrates a different item.
It is a MISTAKE that only manifests because the words don't
match the picture.
(If I am selling a used VW and mistakenly post a picture of a
new VW, I would not be delivering the latter.)
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If the buyer sued for Specific Performance, I would defend my position.
Household Fire and Carriage Accident Insurance Co Ltd v Grant (1879) 4 Ex D 216
"... An acceptance, which only remains in the breast of the acceptor without being actually and by legal implication communicated to the offerer, is no binding acceptance..."
(I can warp EVEN that out-of-context, Plaintiff-friendly and off-point concept;
and, make it nigh impossible for a sharpshooter in the hypothetical to thwart
my defense.)
There are DOZENS of "might fly" defenses to an SP claim. If you toss
them all in - and display the proper demeanor - you have a VERY fair
chance of running them over almost any equity-court judge.
Even drunk and insane judges generally like their decisions to appear
equitable.
Since the hypothetical is below the money limits in most Small Claims
courts, the chances of the Defendant prevailing are HUGE.
Destruction of mutual assent
Mutual assent or meeting of the minds is destroyed by such actions as fraud, undue influence, duress, mutual mistake, or misrepresentation.
Specific performance is granted on equitable grounds in light of all the circumstances surrounding a particular case.
The determining factor is whether, in equity and good conscience, the court should specifically enforce the contract
because the legal remedy of monetary damages would inadequately compensate the plaintiff for the loss.
In the alternative, a Plaintiff may also argue for monetary damages equal to the value of his bargain.
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Different courts/juries see things differently. You never know for sure
what is going to happen in court, until after it happens.
meeting of the minds
When two parties to an agreement (contract) both have the same understanding of the terms of the agreement. Such mutual comprehension is essential to a valid contract. It is
provable by the express provisions of a written contract, without reference to any statements or hidden thoughts outside the writing. There would not be a meeting of the minds
if Bill Buyer said, "I'll buy all your stock," and he meant shares in a corporation, and Sam Seller said, "I'll sell all my stock to you," and meant his cattle.
..................
wiki
Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote in 1897 that a meeting of minds was really a fiction.
"In the law of contract the use of moral phraseology led to equal confusion, as I have shown in part already, but only in part. Morals deal with the actual internal state of the
individual's mind, what he actually intends. From the time of the Romans down to now, this mode of dealing has affected the language of the law as to contract, and the
language used has reacted upon the thought. We talk about a contract as a meeting of the minds of the parties, and thence it is inferred in various cases that there is no
contract because their minds have not met; that is, because they have intended different things or because one party has not known of the assent of the other. Yet nothing is
more certain than that parties may be bound by a contract to things which neither of them intended, and when one does not know of the other's assent. Suppose a contract is
executed in due form and in writing to deliver a lecture, mentioning no time. One of the parties thinks that the promise will be construed to mean at once, within a week. The
other thinks that it means when he is ready. The court says that it means within a reasonable time. The parties are bound by the contract as it is interpreted by the court, yet
neither of them meant what the court declares that they have said. In my opinion no one will understand the true theory of contract or be able even to discuss some
fundamental questions intelligently until he has understood that all contracts are formal, that the making of a contract depends not on the agreement of two minds in one
intention, but on the agreement of two sets of external signs — not on the parties having meant the same thing but on their having said the same thing."
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wiki.........
Orders of specific performance are granted when damages are not an adequate remedy, and in some specific cases such as land sale. Such orders are discretionary,
as with all equitable remedies, so the availability of this remedy will depend on whether it is appropriate in the circumstances of the case.
There are certain circumstances where an order of specific performance would not be granted. Such circumstances include:
1.specific performance would cause severe hardship to the defendant
2.the contract was unconscionable
3.the claimant has misbehaved (no clean hands)
4.specific performance is impossible
5.performance consists of a personal service
6.the contract is too vague
7.contracts terminable at will
8.contracts requiring constant supervision
9.contract lacking mutuality.
10.contract made for no consideration.
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I have been on both sides in numerous real-property SP claims.
Some judges want to hear about what each party "knew or
should/could have known" at the time of the contract.
Some judges just want to look between the four corners of the
contract.
Even failing on a "mistake" defense, some judges automatically
hate the greater bearer of sophistication and will find a way to
prevent him from being unjustly enriched.
...................................
As most sellers on EBAY know, any "contract" you make is
quite nebulous at best, and can be voided by a non-party
(EBAY) for little or no reason.
from ebay:
"...if the listing ends and there is a winning bidder: Contact the bidder and explain the situation. If you and the bidder agree to not complete the sale, you can file an unpaid item dispute and indicate that “We have agreed not to complete the transaction.” The bidder will be notified and can confirm the agreement..."
rd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
<< <i>It is easy to say that when NO real money is at stake.
Please, those that said they would complete the deal that was NOT intended as a slur upon you just an observation.
Steve >>
I would complete the deal. Yes, it is always easier to respond to the hypothetical but this still allows for a study of intent and even human nature, to some degree.
The bottom line is those that state they would complete the deal are under NO legal obligation to do so. (If I read what they have said correctly)
I'd love to take the high road too, but if I don't have to because of an error I'm keeping the card and selling it again and making the extra 4k.
Steve
so Storm....with another recent post on the Mantle 56' Gray back psa 8 - a seller lists a 56' Mick white back in psa 8. the white back is not listed in the description and there is no scan of the back. the card goes for $3,000. the seller then realizes this is the white back version and it could have went for 6k. is that a listing error too and a legit no go on the sale?
I'd love to take the high road too, but if I don't have to because of an error I'm keeping the card and selling it again and making the extra 4k."
Steve
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Courts are really the ONLY deciders of "legal obligations."
As I have said many times, "Where folks stand on these
hypotheticals depends mostly on where they sit."
If I am the "victim" of a sharpshooter, I support my position.
If I am the sharpshooter, I support my position.
Both are rational human stances.
"Do Unto Others......" is a fun concept, but most folks are
not going to manage their biznez behaviors based on it.
In fact, in my experience, most folks who advertise that
they adhere to the concept are good folks to avoid. (Just
my experience, others will have different experiences.)
But, based on that concept, a buyer could ask himself,
"How would I feel, if I was the seller?"
A possible answer is:
"Do not do to others what you would not like to be done to you."
................................
If I was the buyer in the EXACT hypothetical, I would not
litigate because I see it as a losing effort, AND the reward
for a "successful" effort is too small.
It could very well be that the bidders were aware of what it was, and 1K is really what it's worth.
Now there are times when it's clear that a mistake in listing costs the seller a lot of money (I've been the beneficiary of some of those myself), but the seller is gambling here to think that he would make far more on a resale.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>
<< <i>The thing is the seller sold something he did not know about. Therefore how can he and the buyer have a meeting of the minds?
Also, lets assume the buyer knew that it was worth more and was the variety but the seller did not.
Steve >>
don't buy either argument. I've heard the meeting of the minds theory before and it has no weight. you list something on ebay and you confirm the listing before it's on and you get an email from ebay saying you listed the item for sale - how many double checks does a person need?
buying knowing it was worth more - then good for him for doing so. seller not knowing the value - he/she is out of luck.
deal is a deal >>
I agree. If the reverse situation occurred, the seller would certainly claim 'a deal's a deal'. For example, you sell a BGS 100 Michael Vick shiney 1/1 rare game used highlight video reel limited edition card for $10,000 and then the dog fighting arrest happens that evening. The buyer comes back asking for a discount or to cancel the transaction. Seller says 'tough luck'.
Sorry, I couldn't resist taking a jab at chase cards.
Steve
Does your stance change?
Steve
<< <i>....with another recent post on the Mantle 56' Gray back psa 8 - a seller lists a 56' Mick white back in psa 8. the white back is not listed in the description and there is no scan of the back. the card goes for $3,000. the seller then realizes this is the white back version and it could have went for 6k. is that a listing error too and a legit no go on the sale? >>
//////////////////////////////////////////////////
The Court would have to decide that.
If the flip said "white back," we would be back to the seller
raising his defense as a "listing error." He posted the wrong
picture, by mistake.
If the "white back" was not noted ANYWHERE in the listing,
the seller's defense could be strong.
If the flip was silent, the seller's easy fix would be to locate
the cheaper version and deliver it to the buyer.
(NOTE: I have not seen the "recent post" referred to above.
But, I will look for it.)
IF the seller had already shipped the more expensive card,
the burden shifts to the seller to attempt to recover the card.
A tiresome, but not totally impossible task.
Courts don't like to let folks gain based on "mistakes." BUT,
there is NO way to know in advance what a court will decide.
If Blue Nile ships you a $100K ring, when you actually purchased
a $1K ring, Blue Nile is likely to prevail in its legal-remedy efforts,
if they choose to pursue them.
........................
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....................................
Folks looking for absolute "legit" go/no-go circumstances can ONLY
find them in court.
Outside of court - absent illegal self help - there is absolutely NO
way to "force" an EBAY seller/buyer to perform.
Buyers can NEG non-performing sellers, and EBAY might give
such sellers a "strike." But, only courts and pistolas can force
sellers/buyers to do things they don't wanna do.
Steve
know. If he emailed me while it was live then I just end it, simple as that. If it is after I would probably finish the transaction.
Is it really unethical to do a swap. Its not like the winning bidder asked if it was the actual picture in the auction that they
where bidding on.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
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Not if the swap is to fix a mistake.
..............
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To all the good and decent folks who are prepared to lose
thousands of bucks on an EBAY-listing error:
For a reasonable fee, I will send a nice person to your house
to talk you out of it before you make another mistake.
Seriously, if it's obvious from the pictures and description that the item is the rare variety, then how do we know the buyer wasn't himself fully aware of what he was getting? And weren't others who ran across the auction also fully aware?
The values are a lot less, but I won a card a few months ago where PSA had misidentified the set on the label and the seller's title copied the label. It was obvious to anyone looking at the picture who is familiar with the sets at issue what the label should have said. I ended up being high bidder at less than 1/3 SMR on a high-grade vintage HOFer, but I still ended up paying more than what people would pay for what the label said the card was.
There's no mistake on my part. I knew exactly what it was, what it sells for normally, and that I'd have to have the mechanical error corrected.
I can say with certainty that if the seller had decided to substitute some card that matched that label for the one I won, that I would be extraordinarily upset and would make sure the seller's business suffered greatly as a result.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>I complete the deal and drink heavily that night. >>
Yep.
I'll send the buyer 100 bucks to make him happy but no way I go through with that sale.
And I bet 90% of the members of this board would also find a way to relist it for more $.
This is not a moral/ethical issue - it is a business/money issue.
Moral/ethical implies intent to deceive and there is none here - just an honest mistake.
If it is indeed a rare variety and I fail to indicate it in the listing, I call that a listing error.
patrick
It was listed in the wrong category and that is why only 1 bidder saw it.
The bottom line is the question was simple. The seller did not know what he had and the buyer may or may not have known either.
All we know is that an item that should sell for 5k 'easily' sold for 1000.00 and the expert in that series told the seller ( before he mailed it).
Steve