The difference between grading and selecting the best coin in a grade
Bear
Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
It is true that many collectors can not grade
worth a tinker's dam. Other collectors are able
to adequately grade the series they collect or
certain grades within series.
It seems totally possible for almost all collectors to
look at a number of coins graded MS-65, and select
the best of the lot. Everyone is able to recognize
superior luster, lack of marks in prominent areas,
strong strike, 100% full heads on S.L.Quarters and overall
excellence of a coin. We should all know, that for each grade
of a coin, there are three categories, with each being approximately
33%. The just made in to the grade marginal coin, the average coin
and the superior or PQ coin.
TPGs are the first sorting process that gives the general grade. The new
service of Cough-Acke-Cough supposedly, does not award a green vegetable
to the just made it group. This is not generally true. This second sorting process
should not cause you to let your guard down. This new service is making mistakes,
missing AT coins (which by the way are improving all the time)and awarding vegetables
to marginal coins.
What every collector must do is to set your standards of what you will accept as a average
and PQ coin sub group. Once you have done that, you judge every coin by your standards so
as to select the quality of the coin you buy ,as well as the price you are willing to pay. PCGS
does a pretty good job, but that does not relieve you the collector, from making the final selection.
You do not have to be a grading genius to do this, just an average collector paying attention to what
you are buying.
worth a tinker's dam. Other collectors are able
to adequately grade the series they collect or
certain grades within series.
It seems totally possible for almost all collectors to
look at a number of coins graded MS-65, and select
the best of the lot. Everyone is able to recognize
superior luster, lack of marks in prominent areas,
strong strike, 100% full heads on S.L.Quarters and overall
excellence of a coin. We should all know, that for each grade
of a coin, there are three categories, with each being approximately
33%. The just made in to the grade marginal coin, the average coin
and the superior or PQ coin.
TPGs are the first sorting process that gives the general grade. The new
service of Cough-Acke-Cough supposedly, does not award a green vegetable
to the just made it group. This is not generally true. This second sorting process
should not cause you to let your guard down. This new service is making mistakes,
missing AT coins (which by the way are improving all the time)and awarding vegetables
to marginal coins.
What every collector must do is to set your standards of what you will accept as a average
and PQ coin sub group. Once you have done that, you judge every coin by your standards so
as to select the quality of the coin you buy ,as well as the price you are willing to pay. PCGS
does a pretty good job, but that does not relieve you the collector, from making the final selection.
You do not have to be a grading genius to do this, just an average collector paying attention to what
you are buying.
There once was a place called
Camelot
Camelot
0
Comments
Camelot
I HATE big marks, especially when they appear on coins with a lot of luster. The TPGs on the other hand seem to discount or even ignore marks if the coin has strong luster.
I'll take a smooth coin with less luster over a beat-up coin that is P-L or sort of glows in the dark. Here's an example. This Delaware is only an NGC MS-64, yet so far as I'm concerned it's one of the best Delaware commemorative half dollars I've even seen. The roof of Old Swedes Church and the sails are really clean to the naked eye. I've seen MS-66 graded coins with more luster that I did not like as well. And I've only seen one MS-65 graded piece that I liked better than this. I should have bought it immediately when I saw it at a Baltimore shore, and I decided to come back later. In the mean time, it sold.
Let me add my thoughts. It isn't necessarily about the grade for me. Sometimes it is just about how the coin looks. I mainly collect circulated coins and there is something about an undamaged, uncleaned coin with good old honest normal wear that can be very appealing to me regardless of the grade. Of course most of the coins that I have/purchase do not require and/or are not in slabs so I am not usually trying to decide if PCGS got it right or if it deserves a vegetable. I already know that the dealer usually got it wrong going in.
Joe.
as to what weight to give the various characteristics of a coin. However once
that determination is made, that becomes that persons standard of excellence.
Camelot
<< <i>It isn't necessarily about the grade for me. Sometimes it is just about how the coin looks. I mainly collect circulated coins and there is something about an undamaged, uncleaned coin with good old honest normal wear that can be very appealing to me regardless of the grade. >>
I agree with this. I find that I often don't pay attention to the assigned grade until after I've viewed the coin and decided that I like the way it looks. Everything depends on the coin. Color, surfaces, and strike are very important regardless of the grade.
One caveat - colonial era coins with very high numeric grades (64 and higher) still fascinate me and will get my attention every time, if only just to take a closer look at the coin, then realize I can't afford it and move on.
<< <i> Everyone is able to recognize
superior luster, lack of marks in prominent areas,
strong strike, 100% full heads on S.L.Quarters and overall
excellence of a coin. >>
That's really not true. I've interacted with many collectors who couldn't tell you the difference between a ratty 64 from a gemmy 66 if you put the coins side by side.
Like Bill Jones, I have my differences with the grading services and when I see the particular coin, will buy it nevertheless.
It is my opinion that TPGs often place more value on eye appeal than clean surfaces, and punishes / downgrades coins with attractive toning if such toning is deemed to be too dark and impedes a coin's luster. OTOH, attractive toning will often get a one point grade bump despite contact marks on a coin's surfaces, if it doesn't impede the coin's luster.
Bottom line is know how to grade what you buy. If you specialize in a particular series and you see a dealer who sells a bit of everything, chances are you know more about your series than he does.
It has been my experience on the bourse floor of shows that most of the coins I see are low end for the grade, and they are usually priced accordingly. It has also been my experience that the best coins to buy are those which have been unsuccessfully submitted for upgrades, the dealer has had them in inventory for awhile, and wants to move them. You'll generally do better with these coins than those you might get an a high profile auction.
It has also been my experience that many dealers think their coins are nicer than they really are, and these coins are also priced accordingly.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
of raw rookies. Perhaps I should have said serious collectors with
moderate experience and some exposure to quality Coin Forums like
the one we are on. I do not see how folks who have been on this Forum
for at least 6 months, would still make the rookie mistakes you have delineated.
Camelot
BEERS FOR BEARS!
Camelot
Some novices focus too much on marks, some too much on luster, only with experience do they learn to balance the two and take an overall approach. Only with experience does someone learn what is exceptional strike, luster, what are an average number of marks for a given grade. Some novices ignore spots or rim damage that most veteran collectors want no part of, or the opposite, some see a minor flaw or two under 10x magnification and mistakenly downgrade a true MS65 coin to MS62.
Learning to grade involves looking at lots of coins. Some talented novice collectors can indeed do as Bear says, but just as many or more when presented with two coins side by side choose the one that the experienced collector shuns.
I would advise the novice to seek out average coins and pay average prices. Avoid the quality game, avoid one of the most dangerous cliches in the hobby: "buy the best grade you can afford." Buy grades that a person can understand, that a person can see the difference for themselves. To try and buy high grade coins, or to try and play the quality game when a person doesn't know the basics of grading is the same as the fable about the emperor shopping for his new suit of clothes that he could not see for himself. That person is ripe for the taking. The reality is that Bear has been collecting for decades, so things that are second nature to him, and he takes for granted, may indeed take the same amount of time for the average novice to learn.
it comes to Stndg Lib Quarters FH. If you look at the
most current Heritage Auction, you will see a number
of quarters in MS-65 FH, MS-66 FH and even 2 MS-67 FH.
Now, on most of the quarters I saw flat spots on the
leg and body of MS Liberty. These are not wear spots but
show lack of metal flow into recesses of the die and they are
most distracting to me even though some of the coins had
wonderful luster. Other quarters had what was to me fugly toning.
Last, some quarters had weak FH.
FH.....There are a number of examples of coins designated FH, but are
actually 90% almost FH. Others are FH, but are very mushy on the details.
To be sure the three leaves, ear hole and separation of headband from the face
are all there, but not sharp. Finally you have the strong FH. This is a specimen where
the stems of the leaves show, the detail of the hair is sharp and the face shows a
clear separation between the jaw and the cheek bone. In addition the skirt is full detail
with no flat spots and the bare leg has absolutely no rub or flatness to it, The shin bone
is fully rounded. Finally the luster must be full, booming or corruscating. This then is my
own designation of a Strong FH gem quarter. Very few coins tend to meet this standard.
I have purchase a 1926, MS-65 FH from Laura that to my eyes is a full MS-66, but I paid 65 money,
it is graded 65 and I am content to leave it there. I have rejected MS-67 graded coins,
because they just did not make the grade with my standards. I have another 1926 in MS-65 FH
coming in from Pinnacle that I hope meets my expectations. By the way, 1926 is a sleeper date and
is difficult to find with a strong strike FH.
Camelot
their own standards on another series, like BARBER QUARTERS OR HALVES?
Camelot
as to select the quality of the coin you buy ,as well as the price you are willing to pay. PCGS
does a pretty good job, but that does not relieve you the collector, from making the final selection >>>
My standards are as long as the coin doesn't look bent or the holder says 'Made in China' then I just take the dealers word for it that it's a super PQ coin and I'm getting a real sweetheart deal.
are able to quantify exactly what you are looking for in a coin, you will find
that in a short period of time, you will look at many of the coins you bought
and will be dissatisfied with them. Dicipline, thought and exposure to to
specimens of realy top quality for the grade are essential. If you have never
seen a premo coin, how do you know what to look for? Sometimes it pays to
be a looky loo for a bit to see what is actually available and at what prices.
GOOD HUNTING! By the way, It took me many years and many mistakes to
finally learn what I am telling you. My hope is that you will be able to learn in less
time then it took the fuzzy little bear.
Camelot
serially posting into your own thread
is a breach of forum etiquette.
Are you someone's Alt??
Seriously - good info for all to keep in mind.
merse
Camelot
<< <i>Golden eye, those customers must have been blind and the rawest
of raw rookies. Perhaps I should have said serious collectors with
moderate experience and some exposure to quality Coin Forums like
the one we are on. I do not see how folks who have been on this Forum
for at least 6 months, would still make the rookie mistakes you have delineated. >>
These are serious collectors with significant experience......
for some people, evaluating a coin's condition just doesn't "click" for them.
dealer check the coins they buy. Like you.
Camelot
No offense, Bear, but this whole thought process is foreign to me. As I stated earlier, I either like the coin, or I do not, and then the grade is only exists to set the price. Some coins I like are low-end for the grade, and other are high-end for the grade.
Thats so true. You can be good with one series and stink with another also. Math was always like that for me, if it didn't click I struggled, but when the switch went "click" it was as plain as my big nose. Glad for all the "clicks" in life.
that works, and folks should be exposed to many different methods
and pick the one that seems most appropriate for them. That is the
purpose of this Forum. There is probably no right or wrong way to collect,
but collectors should be aware, of the pros and cons, for each style of collecting.
Camelot
I found a $5.00 Liberty Gold in a green lable PCGS in vf35 that has a really good look, stands out from the rest. I believe you would gauge it DIRTY GOLD qualified. The date however is nothing special 1898-s, not rare by any means, but if your going by looks, its a very pleasant eye grabber. Its not mine and I'm not trying to sell it, just talking.
Thank you (again) for suggesting areas we can all think about, as we pursue our number one addiction ( I hope it is # 1 for most of us).
A couple of differences I have, for the early bust area that I concentrate on. The grades within a particular grade do not break down equally. Only 10 to 15% of the MS 64's and 65's really please me. Another 50% are just okay, and the remaining 35% ought to be melted.
I agree with RYK about the appearance of the coin being number one in attracting me to a possible buy. While I would love to have all Gems, the bust denomination will not allow this. So MS 62's and 63's will reign over white 64's or better.
Now, within the grade, there are little things to look out for, to get the final grade( to me) in the upper echelon. Stars need to be full, and not drawn to the edge. The arrows need to have more definition than just flat. E Pluribus Unum should not be flat, in parts. No major hits in the prominent areas.
And the surfaces---- as natural as possible. Dipped and retoned will be oklay, if not bright. But you need to see thousands of examples to have the confidence the surfaces are not AT.
Finally price. I love the MS 63 and 64 CBH's that can be bought under guides, even when they are pq. To get me to pay 5 figures for a 65 takes a real special look. Only if the coin is a one time opportunity, I will consider it, though not nice appearing. And even then , I will pass, if it is fugly. I'd rather have the blank, than a coin I don't ever want to see.
I didn't come to the above conclusions til I had been collecting the early bust for 7 years.
Technical grading is a beast few comprehend however I've seen
(as we ALL have) some butt ugly coins grade very high "technically"
and have passed on, totally!
If I've said it once I've said it 1000 times - some of the most eye
pleasing coins fall between AU 58 & MS 62 - technically speaking!
It's this range of coins that will fool many a collector into thinking
he or she has a much higher graded coin than he actually does.
More than a couple people immediately come to mind.
What every collector must do is to set your standards of what you will accept as a average
and PQ coin sub group. Once you have done that, you judge every coin by your standards so
as to select the quality of the coin you buy ,as well as the price you are willing to pay.
Huh?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
To me, it's always "about how the coin looks". But the price also has to make sense based on my own opinion of the coin's quality, so it's hard to buy coins that have a lot of plastic value.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
among us, always make something look easy.
Of course, fuzzy little bears ,always have to make
everything look very, very difficult.
Camelot
<< <i>My tastes run about different from many collectors and both of the major TPGs.
I HATE big marks, especially when they appear on coins with a lot of luster. The TPGs on the other hand seem to discount or even ignore marks if the coin has strong luster.
I'll take a smooth coin with less luster over a beat-up coin that is P-L or sort of glows in the dark. Here's an example. This Delaware is only an NGC MS-64, yet so far as I'm concerned it's one of the best Delaware commemorative half dollars I've even seen. The roof of Old Swedes Church and the sails are really clean to the naked eye. I've seen MS-66 graded coins with more luster that I did not like as well. And I've only seen one MS-65 graded piece that I liked better than this. I should have bought it immediately when I saw it at a Baltimore shore, and I decided to come back later. In the mean time, it sold.
Too many tics.....even for a 64, imo.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
and the grades within each grade: 1) Low end <barely made it>, 2) "Solid" < self explanatory - should have NO shot at
grading higher> and 3) the high end pieces that can and DO regrade higher .... especially before forking over Major Bucks
for a Gem BU+ (66) and a Superb Gem 67.
This is where buying PCGS is very important for obvious reasons with paramount among the reasons being Guarantee of Grade.
With this one leap (66 to 67) often comes major difference in Price. Despite the number (67) not all are Equal as mentioned above.
Selecting the Best coin within a grade is not at all easy. Most collectors cannot grade for themselves and THAT is not good, at all.
Becoming TOO dependant on others' opinions and not developing one's own skills isn't good either.
To become astute at "cherrypicking"grades within grades requires a lot of time and dedication to the Hobby.