Is it time to start licensing dealers?
ocon4008
Posts: 1,703
Are coin dealers professionals? Do coin dealers have professional associations? If the answer is yes then they have a responsibility to safe guard the general public. Everyone in this country loves the freedom, but I want to remind everyone that freedom comes with a price tag: RESPONSIBILITY! The more responsibility that you accept the greater freedom you will earn.
Do to the ever increasing cost of coins is it time to start licensing dealers? Should TPG be licensed? Would you consider using an attorney that is not a member of the bar? Would you go to your butcher to have surgery? How many TPG have sprung up to take advantage of the lucrative market created by true professionals.
Every state in this union has some form of board for professional regulations; should coin dealers start to lobby to be included? In my home state, they license interior decorators and beauticians. Are they more professional than coin dealers?
I know this, in the states I practice my profession it is illegal to practice without a license. If caught and convicted a person can be fined and/or sent to prison. If we take greater responsibility as a group it will be easier to control the crooks. Notice I did not say eliminate; when there is this much money to be made the unscrupulous will always try to find an edge.
What do you think?
Do to the ever increasing cost of coins is it time to start licensing dealers? Should TPG be licensed? Would you consider using an attorney that is not a member of the bar? Would you go to your butcher to have surgery? How many TPG have sprung up to take advantage of the lucrative market created by true professionals.
Every state in this union has some form of board for professional regulations; should coin dealers start to lobby to be included? In my home state, they license interior decorators and beauticians. Are they more professional than coin dealers?
I know this, in the states I practice my profession it is illegal to practice without a license. If caught and convicted a person can be fined and/or sent to prison. If we take greater responsibility as a group it will be easier to control the crooks. Notice I did not say eliminate; when there is this much money to be made the unscrupulous will always try to find an edge.
What do you think?
0
Comments
What next, Commies making counterfeit coins?
Oppps....already happening - the counterfeiting part.
Regulating TPG's in a similar fashion would not guarantee accuracy, honesty or responsibility either. This was a subject the ANA discussed a few years ago.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Should TPG be licensed? >>
??? Wouldn't whoever did the licensing have to be at least as knowledgeable as the TPGs? Who would you expect that might be?
Are you saying coin dealers are just like wal-mart? If dealers want to be considered "professionals" it is high time to step up to the plate and take responsibility!
<<No good can come from getting the government involved >>
The government is already involved; how many dealers have traders or business licenses?
And feel free to express your opinions and ask foolish questions.
Yours, of course, isn't a foolish question because it brings up a subject that needs to be considered.
I believe this one is a toss-up. Licensing would weed out some of the screw-ups on fleabay since they would
have to report their dealings to some government agency. Which one I wouldn't even try to guess.
This, of course, involves taxation on their profits. I assume not all of them presently report these now.
However, just the thought of government control over any kind of hobby is revolting.
If dealers are buried in paperwork, they would feel the need to charge even higher prices for their coins.
That puts the burden back on the collector.
Let's just keep things as they are for now and talk about it in another 20 or so years.
Cheers! JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
we have too much government interference as it is.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Do you think licenses somehow make people honest and law-abiding?
<< <i>No good can come from getting the government involved >>
Amen.
https://www.smallcopperguy.com
I disagree; owning property is not a requirement of citizenship, nor a healthy life; but many people still collect it. Yet, the vast majority of owners could not accurately set the properties boundaries. Understanding the how to establish the limits of the properties boundaries require special education and training; therefore, it requires a special license.
<< <i>Understanding the how to establish the limits of the properties boundaries require special education and training; therefore, it requires a special license. >>
There is a flaw in your logic- your "therefore" is an incorrect assumption. Applying for and receiving a license doesn't impart the tiniest bit of knowledge to the person who receives the license. He is every bit as capabe before receiving the license as after.
We pay for and have a business license with the State of Washington. We renew it annually. It clearly states on it that we are a 'domestic profit corporation.' I thought the term meant we only sell U.S.
Title on license does not guarantee future domestic (or otherwise) profits!
<< <i>Understanding the how to establish the limits of the properties boundaries require special education and training; therefore, it requires a special license. >>
And there's the rub...being a coin dealer does not require special education and training. How did the top coin dealers get to be so successful? I suspect it's a combination of honesty, experience, people skills, and developing a "good eye".
have to report their dealings to some government agency. Which one I wouldn't even try to guess.
This, of course, involves taxation on their profits. I assume not all of them presently report these now.
However, just the thought of government control over any kind of hobby is revolting.
If dealers are buried in paperwork, they would feel the need to charge even higher prices for their coins.
That puts the burden back on the collector.
Let's just keep things as they are for now and talk about it in another 20 or so years. >>
I am regulated by three such boards. They require I do 24 hours of continuing education every time I renew my license (every two years). I spend close to 40 hours in educational seminars each cyclei. These boards rely on public complaints. There is no paper work; there is no interaction with the board at all if you are competent and do your job correctly. Also, if some nut complains about you; they are members of your profession and understand what it takes to do the job correctly. They dismiss way more complaints than they act on. But, they sure get rid of scam artists.
Nope, but it will help get rid of those that are not. They will have a higher standard of care to lve up to. Ther general public will have a better benchmark to guide them through this maze.
Nope, they do that now. It is called a traders license. I am talking about having to take a test to PROVE you know what you are doing.
There is a flaw in your logic- your "therefore" is an incorrect assumption. Applying for and receiving a license doesn't impart the tiniest bit of knowledge to the person who receives the license. He is every bit as capabe before receiving the license as after.
Correct. but, people who are not capable can not get licensed. You have to prove your are capable first to get the license. After you are licensed you have to prove you remain capable to keep it.
We pay for and have a business license with the State of Washington. We renew it annually. It clearly states on it that we are a 'domestic profit corporation.' I thought the term meant we only sell U.S.>>
Yes, all professionals have personal licenses, and the ones that own businesses have business licenses.
And there's the rub...being a coin dealer does not require special education and training. How did the top coin dealers get to be so successful? I suspect it's a combination of honesty, experience, people skills, and developing a "good eye".
You don't consider that experience and "good eye" education or training? What any 5 year old can tell me what VAM 49A/1B Hub 3 reverse on a 1881 p Morgan dollar is? (I just made that VAM up; please don't evicerate me to harshly)
I believe your selling yourself short!
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
And then there are shoe salesman and why they should be licensed- I'll save that for a later post to give folks something to look forward to
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Exactly, if you act like a pawn shop, look like pawn shop, people will treat you like a pawn shop. I have never been there but I will bet David Hall's shop has professional written all over it. It is time to start to change they way we think.
Perhaps you should grow up and get a real job; leave your parents basement and get your own place. it is a BRAVE NEW WORLD out here.
<< <i><<Perhaps you should contact the White House ocon - I hear they haven't filled the job of coin czar. >>
Perhaps you should grow up and get a real job; leave your parents basement and get your own place. it is a BRAVE NEW WORLD out here. >>
I remember another poster recently who joined the forum a couple weeks ago and ran up like 80 posts in a day arguing with everyone they could.
Not true in the slightest. I consider, amongst other things, the myriad classes and seminars I've taken in grading and counterfeit detection over the last 25 years plus to be EXACTLY that. Not to mention my college background in business administration, finance and accounting, which have all played into my experience as a dealer for the last quarter century. Also, fyi, there are now colleges that offer numismatic courses and programs.
...if you act like a pawn shop, look like pawn shop, people will treat you like a pawn shop. I have never been there but I will bet David Hall's shop has professional written all over it. It is time to start to change they way we think.
Do you have any clue what you're talking about or do you just like to see yourself in print? How would you know if our store "looks" or "acts" like a pawn shop? FYI, the only reason we are licensed the same way is because the pawn guys whined to the city that they were being unfairly targeted and that other places (like coin dealers) also bought things over the counter. Therefore, we were included as were used book and thrift stores...the local ordinance was primarily instituted as a revenue stream for the city and had nothing to do with how we "look" or "act, thank you very much.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i><<A resounding NO. It's bad enough that we have to pay for both federal and state business licensing... plus on a municipal level- we have to pay for a second hand dealer license from the city as well. Coin dealers here get treated like pawn shops and thrift stores. >>
Exactly, if you act like a pawn shop, look like pawn shop, people will treat you like a pawn shop. I have never been there but I will bet David Hall's shop has professional written all over it. It is time to start to change they way we think. >>
I do not believe that DH has a brick-and-mortar shop. Many national dealers, if not most, are office operations.
I am not going to discuss this issue further because I see your strategy of taking on everyone who disagrees with you, and I realize that it is not worth my time to play the game.
RYK, I am not trying to disagree with everyone; I am trying to get people to think in a new way. I am a professional Land Surveyor; I may have a different prespective on this issue than most; so be it. But, my point is to raise awareness; not disagree with everyone. I strongly believe that this is the next step to make being a coin dealer a true profession. It will lead to greater public opinion and higher profit margins. It is a decision every profession has to come to terms with eventually. What do other professionals think; we have plenty of doctors, lawyers, engineers here. I will shut up now; I believe I have made several strong points for. I would love to hear what other licensed professionals think.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>"And there's the rub...being a coin dealer does not require special education and training."
Not true in the slightest. I consider, amongst other things, the myriad classes and seminars I've taken in grading and counterfeit detection over the last 25 years plus to be EXACTLY that. Not to mention my college background in business administration, finance and accounting, which have all played into my experience as a dealer for the last quarter century. Also, fyi, there are now colleges that offer numismatic courses and programs. >>
Focus on the word "require".
All of the classes and seminars you've taken, as well as your education in business administration, etc., certainly should make you a better dealer and should impact how successful you are.
But none of that training and education is *required* for you to be a dealer.
On the other hand, if a license was required to be a dealer...then certain degrees or training certificates might be required to obtain that license. And you might have to fullfill an ongoing education requirement to keep that license...thus requiring you to continue to attend such seminars and classes.
<< <i><< I am a professional Land Surveyor; I may have a different prespective on this issue than most; so be it. . >>
Does the guy holding the stake need a license?
Again, welcome.
Or going fifty in the fast lane if I want to.
<< <i>No good can come from getting the government involved >>
Indeed.
The tone of the OP is that everything is better when the govt starts regulating it. I take a contrarian viewpoint. Trade is already highly regulated so let us dealers work within the bounds of the existing law.
I for one, work to a much higher standard of conduct called customer service and business ethics. -0-Jerry
As for Dealers, it used to be if they belonged to ANA, PCGS or some other recognized numismatic association or group, that they could be trusted. Unfortunately, none of the aformentioned groups will kick out a dues-paying member without a lot of "convincing". Now-a-days, we only have the law to protect the coin buyers and not the professional associations. I believe only if convicted on a criminal charge would the aforementioned groups ban a dues-paying member, regardless of their bylaws and posturing to seem to protect us consumers. Afterall, they get their money from the dues payers and not us collectors/buyers. That said, I am a dues paying ANA member, but I still believe it takes darn near an Act of Congress to get banned from the ANA if you're a shady dealer.
Cheers!
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
Since moving to Australia, I've been able to compare life here with life in America and where it's heading. Here, you need a license (or some sort of "Certification") to do just about everything. At the hardware stores there are signs warning you that, by law, you must be a licensed plumber to carry out even the most basic plumbing work, even on your own home. Does that make the plumbing here any better? Not hardly! I've seen some of the shoddiest work ever, done by "licensed professionals". Work I would never want to put my name on.
It's just another way for the government to have more control and collect more revenue in the form of licensing fees.
NO, NO and NO!
<< <i>Are coin dealers professionals? Do coin dealers have professional associations? If the answer is yes then they have a responsibility to safe guard the general public. Everyone in this country loves the freedom, but I want to remind everyone that freedom comes with a price tag: RESPONSIBILITY! The more responsibility that you accept the greater freedom you will earn.
Do to the ever increasing cost of coins is it time to start licensing dealers? Should TPG be licensed? Would you consider using an attorney that is not a member of the bar? Would you go to your butcher to have surgery? How many TPG have sprung up to take advantage of the lucrative market created by true professionals.
Every state in this union has some form of board for professional regulations; should coin dealers start to lobby to be included? In my home state, they license interior decorators and beauticians. Are they more professional than coin dealers?
I know this, in the states I practice my profession it is illegal to practice without a license. If caught and convicted a person can be fined and/or sent to prison. If we take greater responsibility as a group it will be easier to control the crooks. Notice I did not say eliminate; when there is this much money to be made the unscrupulous will always try to find an edge.
What do you think? >>
The Founding Fathers required no "licenses" for conducting business. Hands off socialist.
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<< <i>A resounding NO from here!
Since moving to Australia, I've been able to compare life here with life in America and where it's heading. Here, you need a license (or some sort of "Certification") to do just about everything. At the hardware stores there are signs warning you that, by law, you must be a licensed plumber to carry out even the most basic plumbing work, even on your own home. Does that make the plumbing here any better? Not hardly! I've seen some of the shoddiest work ever, done by "licensed professionals". Work I would never want to put my name on.
It's just another way for the government to have more control and collect more revenue in the form of licensing fees.
NO, NO and NO! >>
Are you kidding? Who would want to live in such a ####hole?
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<< <i><<Perhaps you should contact the White House ocon - I hear they haven't filled the job of coin czar. >>
Perhaps you should grow up and get a real job; leave your parents basement and get your own place. it is a BRAVE NEW WORLD out here. >>
What a silly response by the OP....now it's my turn.
BTW Rob(rg), I've already applied for that coin czar job.
Of course, since I'm not a commie, I could be rejected or put before a death panel before my time!!!
memorabilia . There are thousands of antique shops . Flea market dealers who set
up at major shows , just like coin dealers . Traveling ephemera shows such as 'Papermania' .
Those buyers of everything that take out 2 page ads at your local hotel , then move on .
How about a guide that takes you through rivers and portages and lakes in the wilds
of Maine ? If there is a requirement , most wont get licensed . And if I get one , does
that mean I dont overgrade or charge less at coin shows ?
What would be the purpose of licensing (coin) dealers ?
<< <i>
<< <i>Should TPG be licensed? >>
??? Wouldn't whoever did the licensing have to be at least as knowledgeable as the TPGs? Who would you expect that might be? >>
A stickering agency?
Also, people that start threads thinking that responsibility should be a one-way street.