<< <i>Sanction, would the person who purchased the 'original one & only' have any action to sue? If I recall correctly they were issued a letter that stated that coin was the only one. While it would still be a great item I can't imagine that its value would be the same with 10 more on the market. >>
No. Really, the value of the one was trashed as soon as the other ten showed up. And the government only promised not to monetize any more of them - they can still keep that promise [whatever the heck that actually means]. >>
As TDN stated fact- the government must recognize the 10 now plus the one that is truly in existence and place a value on them.
Will this drop the value of the Farouk- undoubtedly by 10 fold, and then the game will begin- I would bet within the week- the farouk piece will be on the market at 8-12 mil...hoping to capitualte on what will be coming in the very near future.
What are the possibilities that the government has destroyed these coins? Maybe not "destroyed" them, but hidden them nonetheless. But could the government come back to the court, if they lose and are required to return the coins to the Langbords, and say that they 10 coins no longer exist? what happens then?
Who gets to grade them when they get sent to PCGS for grading? (I am assuming they are all raw now and that they will be all slabbed and graded)
Do they go to the 'next grader in line' or do these get special treatment as far as who examines the coin? (followed by an article about what it was like to grade the coins)
I heard a rumor that the 10 coins are being care for by "Top Men" and that they currently reside in the same storage container that the "Ark Of The Covenant" was placed in by government agents in the 1930's after Indiana Jones found it and saved it from Der Fuehrer
<< <i>Specifically a discussion among counsel for the parties and the negotiation of a settlement [maybe along the lines of the Fenton case with the Langbords ackowledging the government's ownership of the coins, the formal issuance of same (for $20.00 each), with a sale of same to third parties, or a division of same between the government and the Langbords and with the Fenton buyer being brought in and being made part of the settlement. >>
If they're selling the damn things for $20 apiece then I want one.
<< <i>Funny and ever so curious to me, it is, that the court found that by failing to return the coins or file a forefeiture proceeding against the coins the government illegally "seized" the coins in violation of the 4th and 5th amendment rights of the Langbords; yet this same illegal "seizure" does not rise to the level of and constitute an "administrative forefeiture" by the government to which the penalties in Section 983(a) would apply. >>
In other words, there are apparently worse things the government can do to you than violate your Constitutional rights under the 4th and 5th amendments. Yup. Strange.
<< <i>Fascinating stuff. SanctionII, thanks again for the latest coverage. >>
What's fascinating about it? The rulings today will be appealed, before the trial can even start. As I predicted, the Judge would rule in favor of a torturous legal outcome, solving nothing, but handing the lawyers a victory. I see about 5 more years of BLA-BLA litigation and millions in generated fees, while reasonable people could resolve this in 5 minutes.
<< <i>I hope i'm not getting ahead of myself here:
Who gets to grade them when they get sent to PCGS for grading? (I am assuming they are all raw now and that they will be all slabbed and graded)
Do they go to the 'next grader in line' or do these get special treatment as far as who examines the coin? (followed by an article about what it was like to grade the coins) >>
Well, let's see........ they get four rarity points each. they get five notariety points each. That will make the pocket piece specimen an MS-64, and the others MS-70's to MS-75's. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i> Who gets to grade them when they get sent to PCGS for grading? (I am assuming they are all raw now and that they will be all slabbed and graded)
Do they go to the 'next grader in line' or do these get special treatment as far as who examines the coin? (followed by an article about what it was like to grade the coins) >>
>>
I'm guessing the grading room shuts down for that one. Probably not too many things could get the PCGS assembly line to grind to a halt, but a stack of 1933 $20s would do the trick, I think.
Actually, the thing to do would be to hold an auction for the right to grade the coins. If PCGS or the distinguished competition refused to play ball (and I could certainly understand they wouldn't want to set a precedent), you can be sure that there would be plenty of other folks in line. And it's not like these things will be worth more or less based on the plastic anyway.
<< <i>What are the possibilities that the government has destroyed these coins? Maybe not "destroyed" them, but hidden them nonetheless. But could the government come back to the court, if they lose and are required to return the coins to the Langbords, and say that they 10 coins no longer exist? what happens then? >>
`
Is there a point in the proceedings at which the judge will want to view the actual coins?
Thanks for the continued updates! I'm not good with legalese, but so far it seems to be going the way I thought it should--that the burden of proof should be on the government. But something tells me that this could still possibly swing the other way. It will be extremely interesting to see how this ends up. Ever so slowly the murky waters are beginning to clear.
Thanks to all for the update. Pretty soon, there could be alot more items coming out of the wood work if this goes the way it might.
I'll wait until the 1964 Peace dollars are cheap before buying a roll.
Hold onto your hats... this could be fun.
Steve
P.S. For those of you asking about grade of these things... I think all ten of these coins were photographed and an article was published in CW with potential grades listed a few years ago... anybody got a link to that article?
U.S. Air Force Security Forces Retired
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
<< <i>Sorry for the cynicism but I wish they could both lose. I believe (without evidence) that Switt new they were hot or they would have been on the market 30 years ago. From my perspective it would be cool if 25 rolls hit the market as soon as the ink dries on the court decision. >>
I'm with you on this >>
Actually, I suspect the mints in China are already at work stamping away those 25 rolls to hit the market.
<< <i>Fascinating stuff. SanctionII, thanks again for the latest coverage. >>
What's fascinating about it? The rulings today will be appealed, before the trial can even start. As I predicted, the Judge would rule in favor of a torturous legal outcome, solving nothing, but handing the lawyers a victory. I see about 5 more years of BLA-BLA litigation and millions in generated fees, while reasonable people could resolve this in 5 minutes. >>
Actually, it is the exception rather than the rule that a lower court's rulings would be accepted for appeal prior to the trial. As for the Fenton coin who is to say its value hasn't plummeted or even increased independent of the Langbord coins coming to light. It seems those nickels didn't lose any value when an additional one was authenticated.
Why would anyone care whether the owner of the Fenton coin would see a decrease in the value of same? That coin should have no bearing on the merits of the Langbord case. Was the Guvmint able to prove how that one left the mint? Anyone with $7.5 mil to blow on a coin gets no sympathy from me.
"As for the Fenton coin who is to say its value hasn't plummeted or even increased independent of the Langbord coins coming to light. It seems those nickels didn't lose any value when an additional one was authenticated". When a coin goes from 3 known to 13 known it's going to have an adverse effect on its value. The nickel I assume you are referring (1913) has always had 5 known and this "additional one" was not a new discovery, but one that had gone "missing" for a few years.
Mr. Swift was not the first collector/dealer to have a "special" relationship with mint employees. There are many coins of dubious nature that the government has not confiscated. If there was indeed a window of opportunity to purchase these coins and he did legally, then they should be returned. As for them being "underground" for many years, can you blame anyone for not bringing them to light given the governments intention to confiscate them.
Thanks for the update Sanction ll, I have been following this (and your inputs) since it began. Very intriguing case. I will not hypothesize an outcome, rather I will wait and watch. Methinks a book may be in this drama.... Cheers, RickO
I don't believe the government can settle in this instance - they've already agreed not to monetize any more of the darn things and they've boxed themselves into a corner with that big dramatic $20 bill thingy.
I wonder if that whole "monetization" thing wasn't partly thought up by a marketing person. It made for great publicity when they auctioned that thing off.
Someone should have auctioned off the extra $20 bill for charity, but it was probably included in the $7M check. Too bad, it would have been a cool artifact to go with the whole story.
Also wondering if the Mint will be more reticent to put the $20s on display, now that round 1 has gone to the Langbords.
<< <i>I don't believe the government can settle in this instance - they've already agreed not to monetize any more of the darn things and they've boxed themselves into a corner with that big dramatic $20 bill thingy. >>
In theory they might have "wiggle room" if they could cut a side deal with the owner of the Fenton piece, but at this point they may be "all in" for the legal battle.
Bajjerfan, you are a genius. The mint should mint 100,000 and give the Langbord's first pick of any ten. Problem solved and case closed. And if I were the head of the Chinese group I'd have blow-ups of the Fenton coin and a computer-controlled lathe and hit PCGS with a couple rolls before the Langbord coins show up. It might not be worth it for a few 09-SVDB's but $20 million in one swoop sure would. Yummy! This just gets better and better.
With respect to settlement prospects, it is much greater with the government having to file a forefeiture action in which it has the burden of proof. It settlement is discussed, the only way I could see it realistically happening is if the buyer of the Fenton coin participates in same. In that manner, the Langbord case can be resolved without the government then having to worry about becoming involved in a separate lawsuit with the Fenton buyer.
Wolf359:
I hope the case does not get diverted from the court into binding arbitration. If it did, that would end my postings about the case since aribitration proceedings are not "public" and thus not part of the court file that I can access from my desk top.
For those of you who have read the entire court's ruling, from your reading of same what is your opinion on how the court views the government and its conduct; and how the court views the Langbords and their conduct?
The government pays attorneys in the Department of Justice... it is our tax dollars. If those attorneys were not working on this case, it would be something else. Tax dollars really are not the issue here.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The Government did make the statement during the Fenton-coin sale that it will be the only one ever "monetized". Does that leave open the prospect that the Langboard 10 are already monetized? Is there a loop-hole there?
<< <i>The Government did make the statement during the Fenton-coin sale that it will be the only one ever "monetized". Does that leave open the prospect that the Langboard 10 are already monetized? Is there a loop-hole there? >>
The loophole is that the whole "monetization" fandango of the Fenton coin was utter hogwash on the part of the U.S. Treasury. It looked good on paper. So did the League of Nations. Neither means anything today.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>"As for the Fenton coin who is to say its value hasn't plummeted or even increased independent of the Langbord coins coming to light. It seems those nickels didn't lose any value when an additional one was authenticated". When a coin goes from 3 known to 13 known it's going to have an adverse effect on its value. The nickel I assume you are referring (1913) has always had 5 known and this "additional one" was not a new discovery, but one that had gone "missing" for a few years.
Mr. Swift was not the first collector/dealer to have a "special" relationship with mint employees. There are many coins of dubious nature that the government has not confiscated. If there was indeed a window of opportunity to purchase these coins and he did legally, then they should be returned. As for them being "underground" for many years, can you blame anyone for not bringing them to light given the governments intention to confiscate them. >>
Good points but we forget that there are a lot of rarities and patterns which have limited or no market (i.e. demand) whatsoever because there are too few of them. I suspect there are at least a dozen buyers out there who would be ready and willing to get one of those 1933 Double Eagles for moon money.
<< <i>The Government did make the statement during the Fenton-coin sale that it will be the only one ever "monetized". Does that leave open the prospect that the Langboard 10 are already monetized? Is there a loop-hole there? >>
The loophole is that the whole "monetization" fandango of the Fenton coin was utter hogwash on the part of the U.S. Treasury. It looked good on paper. So did the League of Nations. Neither means anything today.
TD >>
What branch of the goverment promised that and under what authority? It couldnt have been a judge since they cant make laws so it must have been the congress because only they can create federal laws.
sorta fasinating all the angles at which one could come from on this case. it always comes down to an interpretation of worded law or what would/should be blind justice
<< <i>The Government did make the statement during the Fenton-coin sale that it will be the only one ever "monetized". Does that leave open the prospect that the Langboard 10 are already monetized? Is there a loop-hole there? >>
The loophole is that the whole "monetization" fandango of the Fenton coin was utter hogwash on the part of the U.S. Treasury. It looked good on paper. So did the League of Nations. Neither means anything today.
TD >>
What branch of the goverment promised that and under what authority? It couldnt have been a judge since they cant make laws so it must have been the congress because only they can create federal laws. >>
Its likely that the Mint or Treasury can likely do that as a matter of course. I doubt that Congress will have to make and ratify a special motion/regulation monetizing/legitimizing any 2010 nickels which get struck.
<< <i>Bajjerfan, you are a genius. The mint should mint 100,000 and give the Langbord's first pick of any ten. Problem solved and case closed. And if I were the head of the Chinese group I'd have blow-ups of the Fenton coin and a computer-controlled lathe and hit PCGS with a couple rolls before the Langbord coins show up. It might not be worth it for a few 09-SVDB's but $20 million in one swoop sure would. Yummy! This just gets better and better. >>
Does anyone think that the mint could actually strike 100,000 copies of the 1933 DEs that are indistinguishable from the Langbord 10?
Comments
<< <i>Perhaps we should give the coins to China, as partial backing for
the Treasury debt they are holding.
And give them an authentic example to use in fakes????
<< <i>
<< <i>Sanction, would the person who purchased the 'original one & only' have any action to sue? If I recall correctly they were issued a letter that stated that coin was the only one. While it would still be a great item I can't imagine that its value would be the same with 10 more on the market. >>
No. Really, the value of the one was trashed as soon as the other ten showed up. And the government only promised not to monetize any more of them - they can still keep that promise [whatever the heck that actually means]. >>
As TDN stated fact- the government must recognize the 10 now plus the one that is truly in existence and place a value on them.
Will this drop the value of the Farouk- undoubtedly by 10 fold, and then the game will begin- I would bet within the week- the farouk piece will be on the market at 8-12 mil...hoping to capitualte on what will be coming in the very near future.
good for the Langbords- bad for the guberment...
Who gets to grade them when they get sent to PCGS for grading? (I am assuming they are all raw now and that they will be all slabbed and graded)
Do they go to the 'next grader in line' or do these get special treatment as far as who examines the coin? (followed by an article about what it was like to grade the coins)
Camelot
<< <i>Specifically a discussion among counsel for the parties and the negotiation of a settlement [maybe along the lines of the Fenton case with the Langbords ackowledging the government's ownership of the coins, the formal issuance of same (for $20.00 each), with a sale of same to third parties, or a division of same between the government and the Langbords and with the Fenton buyer being brought in and being made part of the settlement. >>
If they're selling the damn things for $20 apiece then I want one.
...Maybe even two.
<< <i>Funny and ever so curious to me, it is, that the court found that by failing to return the coins or file a forefeiture proceeding against the coins the government illegally "seized" the coins in violation of the 4th and 5th amendment rights of the Langbords; yet this same illegal "seizure" does not rise to the level of and constitute an "administrative forefeiture" by the government to which the penalties in Section 983(a) would apply. >>
In other words, there are apparently worse things the government can do to you than violate your Constitutional rights under the 4th and 5th amendments. Yup. Strange.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>Fascinating stuff. SanctionII, thanks again for the latest coverage. >>
What's fascinating about it? The rulings today will be appealed, before the trial can even start. As I predicted, the Judge would rule in favor of a torturous legal outcome, solving nothing, but handing the lawyers a victory. I see about 5 more years of BLA-BLA litigation and millions in generated
fees, while reasonable people could resolve this in 5 minutes.
Free Trial
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I hope i'm not getting ahead of myself here:
Who gets to grade them when they get sent to PCGS for grading? (I am assuming they are all raw now and that they will be all slabbed and graded)
Do they go to the 'next grader in line' or do these get special treatment as far as who examines the coin? (followed by an article about what it was like to grade the coins) >>
Well, let's see........
they get four rarity points each.
they get five notariety points each.
That will make the pocket piece specimen an MS-64, and the others MS-70's to MS-75's.
TD
There will probably be a mandatory compromise to where neither side will win it all.
As I said, and Sanction II later said, "Stay Tuned".
<< <i>
<< <i>
Who gets to grade them when they get sent to PCGS for grading? (I am assuming they are all raw now and that they will be all slabbed and graded)
Do they go to the 'next grader in line' or do these get special treatment as far as who examines the coin? (followed by an article about what it was like to grade the coins) >>
>>
I'm guessing the grading room shuts down for that one. Probably not too many things could get the PCGS assembly line to grind to a halt, but a stack of 1933 $20s would do the trick, I think.
Actually, the thing to do would be to hold an auction for the right to grade the coins. If PCGS or the distinguished competition refused to play ball (and I could certainly understand they wouldn't want to set a precedent), you can be sure that there would be plenty of other folks in line. And it's not like these things will be worth more or less based on the plastic anyway.
<< <i>What are the possibilities that the government has destroyed these coins? Maybe not "destroyed" them, but hidden them nonetheless. But could the government come back to the court, if they lose and are required to return the coins to the Langbords, and say that they 10 coins no longer exist? what happens then? >>
`
Is there a point in the proceedings at which the judge will want to view the actual coins?
What if the mint was to strike 100,000 copies?
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Ive seen you post this comment on several threads. Why do you wish go to prison?
perhaps we should melt the pieces like should have happened in 1933...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I'll wait until the 1964 Peace dollars are cheap before buying a roll.
Hold onto your hats... this could be fun.
Steve
P.S. For those of you asking about grade of these things... I think all ten of these coins were photographed and an article was published in CW with potential grades listed a few years ago... anybody got a link to that article?
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sorry for the cynicism but I wish they could both lose. I believe (without evidence) that Switt new they were hot or they would have been on the market 30 years ago. From my perspective it would be cool if 25 rolls hit the market as soon as the ink dries on the court decision. >>
I'm with you on this >>
Actually, I suspect the mints in China are already at work stamping away those 25 rolls to hit the market.
Sanction, you deserve a lot of applause for keeping us in the loop with this case, how its proceeded, and such since the beginning.
<< <i>
<< <i>Fascinating stuff. SanctionII, thanks again for the latest coverage. >>
What's fascinating about it? The rulings today will be appealed, before the trial can even start. As I predicted, the Judge would rule in favor of a torturous legal outcome, solving nothing, but handing the lawyers a victory. I see about 5 more years of BLA-BLA litigation and millions in generated
fees, while reasonable people could resolve this in 5 minutes. >>
Actually, it is the exception rather than the rule that a lower court's rulings would be accepted for appeal prior to the trial. As for the Fenton coin who is to say its value hasn't plummeted or even increased independent of the Langbord coins coming to light. It seems those nickels didn't lose any value when an additional one was authenticated.
Larry
Mr. Swift was not the first collector/dealer to have a "special" relationship with mint employees. There are many coins of dubious nature that the government has not confiscated.
If there was indeed a window of opportunity to purchase these coins and he did legally, then they should be returned. As for them being "underground" for many years, can you blame anyone for not bringing them to light given the governments intention to confiscate them.
Someone should have auctioned off the extra $20 bill for charity, but it was probably included in the $7M check. Too bad, it would have been a cool artifact to go with the whole story.
Also wondering if the Mint will be more reticent to put the $20s on display, now that round 1 has gone to the Langbords.
<< <i>I don't believe the government can settle in this instance - they've already agreed not to monetize any more of the darn things and they've boxed themselves into a corner with that big dramatic $20 bill thingy. >>
In theory they might have "wiggle room" if they could cut a side deal with the owner of the Fenton piece, but at this point they may be "all in" for the legal battle.
Free Trial
With respect to settlement prospects, it is much greater with the government having to file a forefeiture action in which it has the burden of proof. It settlement is discussed, the only way I could see it realistically happening is if the buyer of the Fenton coin participates in same. In that manner, the Langbord case can be resolved without the government then having to worry about becoming involved in a separate lawsuit with the Fenton buyer.
Wolf359:
I hope the case does not get diverted from the court into binding arbitration. If it did, that would end my postings about the case since aribitration proceedings are not "public" and thus not part of the court file that I can access from my desk top.
For those of you who have read the entire court's ruling, from your reading of same what is your opinion on how the court views the government and its conduct; and how the court views the Langbords and their conduct?
<< <i>Whawehave to do is dig up all of the dead people involved >>
Sorry wise old bear. Dead people are only lawfully allowed to vote, not to give depositions or testimony.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Thanks again and again for the update!!!
^lies. all lies- my two cents: smelt all ten and give the brick to the Langboards
PROBLEM SOLVED
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>The Government did make the statement during the Fenton-coin sale that it will be the only one ever "monetized". Does that leave open the prospect that the Langboard 10 are already monetized? Is there a loop-hole there? >>
The loophole is that the whole "monetization" fandango of the Fenton coin was utter hogwash on the part of the U.S. Treasury. It looked good on paper. So did the League of Nations. Neither means anything today.
TD
<< <i>"As for the Fenton coin who is to say its value hasn't plummeted or even increased independent of the Langbord coins coming to light. It seems those nickels didn't lose any value when an additional one was authenticated". When a coin goes from 3 known to 13 known it's going to have an adverse effect on its value. The nickel I assume you are referring (1913) has always had 5 known and this "additional one" was not a new discovery, but one that had gone "missing" for a few years.
Mr. Swift was not the first collector/dealer to have a "special" relationship with mint employees. There are many coins of dubious nature that the government has not confiscated.
If there was indeed a window of opportunity to purchase these coins and he did legally, then they should be returned. As for them being "underground" for many years, can you blame anyone for not bringing them to light given the governments intention to confiscate them. >>
Good points but we forget that there are a lot of rarities and patterns which have limited or no market (i.e. demand) whatsoever because there are too few of them. I suspect there are at least a dozen buyers out there who would be ready and willing to get one of those 1933 Double Eagles for moon money.
<< <i>
<< <i>The Government did make the statement during the Fenton-coin sale that it will be the only one ever "monetized". Does that leave open the prospect that the Langboard 10 are already monetized? Is there a loop-hole there? >>
The loophole is that the whole "monetization" fandango of the Fenton coin was utter hogwash on the part of the U.S. Treasury. It looked good on paper. So did the League of Nations. Neither means anything today.
TD >>
What branch of the goverment promised that and under what authority?
It couldnt have been a judge since they cant make laws so it must have been the congress because only they can create federal laws.
it always comes down to an interpretation of worded law or what would/should be
blind justice
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The Government did make the statement during the Fenton-coin sale that it will be the only one ever "monetized". Does that leave open the prospect that the Langboard 10 are already monetized? Is there a loop-hole there? >>
The loophole is that the whole "monetization" fandango of the Fenton coin was utter hogwash on the part of the U.S. Treasury. It looked good on paper. So did the League of Nations. Neither means anything today.
TD >>
What branch of the goverment promised that and under what authority?
It couldnt have been a judge since they cant make laws so it must have been the congress because only they can create federal laws.
Its likely that the Mint or Treasury can likely do that as a matter of course. I doubt that Congress will have to make and ratify a special motion/regulation monetizing/legitimizing any 2010 nickels which get struck.
<< <i>Bajjerfan, you are a genius. The mint should mint 100,000 and give the Langbord's first pick of any ten. Problem solved and case closed. And if I were the head of the Chinese group I'd have blow-ups of the Fenton coin and a computer-controlled lathe and hit PCGS with a couple rolls before the Langbord coins show up. It might not be worth it for a few 09-SVDB's but $20 million in one swoop sure would. Yummy! This just gets better and better. >>
Does anyone think that the mint could actually strike 100,000 copies of the 1933 DEs that are indistinguishable from the Langbord 10?
Ed. S.
(EJS)