This is a tough one. If you don't know anything about the guy, there isn't much you can do. Since you also handed the quarter over to the boss, there isn't much you can do. Unless the boss wants to make it right if the guy ever comes back, I would do nothing if the guy shows up again. It's better not to let him know of the mistake. If it was me, I'd be heartbroken because here is a guy trying to make things right and nothing can be done.
You are in a catch twenty two with doing what should be done and what you actually can do, which is probably nothing.
You may not be able to do anything for this gentleman, but there are some things you might do in the future:
1. If things are too busy, make and appointment for a later date;
2. Have a Red Book handy for those coins that you are not familiar with;
3. Make it a point to get a customer's name and number for future follow-up, etc.;
4. Expect many customers to not know anything about coins and be prepared to walk them through the selling process. If they have a lot of coins, perhaps suggesting that they purchase a Red Book and do a little research on their own.
your mistake of buying it as "junk" silver was an honest one...no dealer (even the best) can memorize every date,variety, mintmark, double die, vam #, rpm...etc. for every series and list of paterns that were EVER made...not enough room in anyones head.
this mistake DOES NOT make you a bad person...and if you can contact the man...its fixable.
this bell has been rung ...can't un-ring it.
these options are available off the top of my head...certainly there are more but its 6:49 am and as an insomniac...i'm not really too on top of things right now.
your bosses ethics will be part of the equation and might affect your employment status.
BUT!...
if the coin shop were yours...AND...YOU WERE TOP MAN....AND...you could contact this guy...
you could: explain your honest mistake to him AND. explain its rarity to him, and that it should be graded if its to be sold. explain that you wish to be fair to him....this will come back to you through new customers...(i'm a service oriented business...I know this to be true.) offer to get it graded for him at his expense...explain how this will net larger profits...(some never get this.)
graded or not...all the info is out there to him...
graded or not...
1. offer him a fair "buyers" price for the coin.
2. explain its rarity to him and sell it back to him for what he was paid for it...you bought it as "junk" sell it as junk back to him....balls in his court.
you'll feel better better no matter what he does...your conscience was clear before...and now you'll get some satisfaction knowing your conscience was not ONLY clear... BUT that you've actually helped some old guy out thats MAYBE selling his last valuables to live on.
"There by the grace of GOD goes I"... i try to live like that...and i too make many mistakes and fail many times in my walk.
Keets...you're not a bad person...i say this from your thought processes of the many things you've written here...i know if the right thing can be done... you'll do it.
edit:
if he can't be contacted...
maybe he's happy with what he got...but now you've learned a bit of something...refer to it next time this opportunity arises.
<< <i>lots of questions floating around in between the imagined scenarios, so i cam up with a question and its answer myself. here it is: can anyone tell me the definition of self-righteous?? -----confident of one's own righteousness, esp. when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.
there now, this thread is really educational at last!! >>
I think the above post relates some rather unflattering implications. My only thought is that "self-righteous" and "honest" are two very different descriptors. You made a poll on how to make it right, but, by the above post, seem to imply that anyone suggesting actually making it right, is "self-righteous". My opinion is that it's time to let this subject fade away. If, as you've said, your "sleeping good", it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
Since you don't have the opportunity to change the current scenario......
from now on...
do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Put yourself in the other guy's shoes.
Do your best to avoid circular arguments, as it will help you reason better, because better reasoning is often a result of avoiding circular arguments.
I know this has been said before, but I think it really depends on how much junk we're talking about. If it is 5 bucks worth, I think a dealer should be expected to go through it while the customer is there and at least notice the rare dates (not necessarily dd's and VAM's) If there is 40 or 50 bucks worth, I wouldn't, as a seller, expect the dealer to look through it all.
There is probably not a whole lot to be done in this case. What's done is done.
As I said to you privately, you should consider changing the store policy and procedures such that the next person who walks in with a 1901-S quarter does not get treated the same way. Hiding behind "that's not the way we do things" does not cut it. If the store procedures penalize people who bring in valuable coins to sell, they are not honorable. The cynic in me thinks that the modus operandi is the way it is to justify these fortuitous occasions, should they occur. ("We're too busy, can't look at each coin, don't want to bother people getting contact information, blah, blah, blah...)
If you are busy, you can even tell people up front: "We are too busy to look at each individual coin, and our offer is based on what typical examples are worth. When we have more time, we will study the coins more carefully. If we find that any of the coins are considerably more valuable than our initial assessment, we will contact you about getting more money to you."
<< <i>Since you don't have the opportunity to change the current scenario......
from now on...
do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Put yourself in the other guy's shoes. >>
Not bad, but in cases like this, I actually prefer to think of it more personally, as: "Do unto others as you would want your own father/mother/grandfather/grandmother treated"
If you are busy, you can even tell people up front: "We are too busy to look at each individual coin, and our offer is based on what typical examples are worth. When we have more time, we will study the coins more carefully. If we find that any of the coins are considerably more valuable than our initial assessment, we will contact you about getting more money to you." >>
Nothing keets. You asked for the phone number and couldn't get it. I was in yee ole coin shoppe yesterday. A nice lady brought in about 1000-1200 nickels in a box. All were pre 60's. The owner was waiting on several customers at once. He bought the nickels at a bulk price. Now what if he (or his vendor) finds a 42 D/D Horizontal in AU? Was she ripped. Hell no! The posters that call that a rip don't buy large bulk each day that usually goes to the wholesaler without being searched. If a shop owner has the time and staff to do lenghty searches for cherrys they should be paid well for the time invested.
<< <i>It's likely a moot point...it is probably fake anyway...most uncertified 1901-S are. Sorry to burst your bubble. >>
Not entirely true, but it brings up an interesting question, and I'll pose it to the people who want OP to track down the guy and immediately pay him all the money minus 15% (because, evidently, that's all any dealer should be allowed to make on something-but that's another issue)...
What if OP does as you suggest, then sends in the piece and it's bad? Tough cookies?
I am really surprised at the number of states that do not require Pawn or coins and jewelery shops to get ID when buying, what if the collector around the corner had just been robbed? Personally I think whenever buying coins or jewelery and shop does not ask for ID, it is because they don't want to miss the deal when the person walks out. What other reason would there be for not asking?
Customers at my shop are required to have a valid state Drivers lic or state photo ID to do business. The information is then transfered to the sales slip.
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211
In our city we have to pay for a second hand dealer license just like a pawn shop does, get ID, and fill out a form, then hold the stuff for 7 days. City ordinance. Tell me that's not restraint of trade, when a dealer just outside the city limits or across the river can sell stuff 5 seconds after he buys it.
FWIW, but speaking from a front-of-the-counter perspective only: I'd try to track him down, but only after I'd determined if it was legit. I'd feel pretty foolish if I searched then found a guy and told him his coin was worth big $$ then it turned out it wasn't...not that that's never happened to me or anything!
But for me, the fun part would be to finally contact the guy and say: "Man, you had a coin that was worth major $$!!" That would make my day...dunno, maybe that perspective would change if I were behind the counter.
<< <i>Nothing keets. You asked for the phone number and couldn't get it. I was in yee ole coin shoppe yesterday. A nice lady brought in about 1000-1200 nickels in a box. All were pre 60's. The owner was waiting on several customers at once. He bought the nickels at a bulk price. Now what if he (or his vendor) finds a 42 D/D Horizontal in AU? Was she ripped. Hell no! The posters that call that a rip don't buy large bulk each day that usually goes to the wholesaler without being searched. If a shop owner has the time and staff to do lenghty searches for cherrys they should be paid well for the time invested. >>
That's not quite the same thing as a known keydate/mm like the 1901-S quarter.
Come on now....this isn't a VAM/slight overdate/variety/etc....this is a pretty well known issue that is key. I would HOPE that anyone with ANY time working in a coin shop would know the key dates for the common denominations......if not, I hope they learn them but I hope it isn't at the expense of unknowledgable folks that think they can trust the dealer.
Learn to read, telephoto. The obvious thing to do is tell the seller it's POTENTIALLY worth a lot -- "gamble" $30 to get it certified -- and if it comes back genuine, split 50-50 with them. Not too difficult. Not at all.
What, bochiman, this 1909-S VDB I just bought over the counter from Joe Public is worth more than the 5 cents I paid for it as a common wheatie? Hmmm. Well, who can keep all those dates in one's head, anyhow?
Learn to read, telephoto. The obvious thing to do is tell the seller it's POTENTIALLY worth a lot -- "gamble" $30 to get it certified -- and if it comes back genuine, split 50-50 with them. Not too difficult. Not at all.
First off, your little "learn to read" comment is inflammatory and unnecessary. And I'm really glad you're here to point out the "obvious thing to do" for the rest of us. It appears you are the one who is challenged in reading comprehension. My question was a hypothetical assuming the money was paid prior to slabbing; I was simply curious to hear some responses.
I for one detect more than just a smidge of hypocrisy by some on this thread who, if they had lucked into something similar, would rush to this board to crow about their rip. I commend the OP for seeking opinions, and FWIW here's my opinion...since evidently you've already attempted to contact the guy and had no luck (correct?), then I'd sleep easy knowing you gave it a shot. If the guy comes back, kick him something extra on the next deal. He'll be happy and so will you.
I'm not a dealer but about 1-2 years ago, a fellow, older collector was showing me a few things he wanted to sell. One was a 1896-S quarter. I don't know much about quarters but I kind of knew that date/mm was ringing in my ears for some reason so I took a minute to open the redbook.
I then, because I couldn't grade these, took pictures, let him know my plans, posted them here, got thoughts on it, and eventually had it slabbed (ANACS...it was cleaned), and sold as such on ebay. Gave him all the money (he did give me some money for my time/effort, but I asked for none and refused...I do understand a business should be compensated though, so a business doing what I did should be expected to get some funds).
So, all I am trying to say by the above is that, even I, who I consider a HUGE novice in most series, recognize many of the key dates/mint marks and, if I can, I would hope someone "in the business" can as well.
<< <i>That's not quite the same thing as a known keydate/mm like the 1901-S quarter. >>
Your right of course Bochiman it's not the same. However, any high dollar coin that is picked up in a bulk buy, unsearched by buyer and unknown by seller is the point. Maybe the shop keets works at has a policy to search or try to search each coin in a bulk buy. If that is a policy of the shop owner I think RYK's post would be the most valid. Even though the original post no longer is in this thread keets did mention he had asked the bulk seller for a phone number and it was not offered. 1. The seller didn't invest any time or effort apparently in researching his holdings or their value. 2. A fair offer of a bulk transaction was offered and accepted. 3. The seller was asked for information that could have allowed the shop to contact him after a detailed search of the bulk had been conducted, but the seller didn't want to offer such info. 4. This thread has gone on ad-nausium.
Interesting that there's more than one person willing to bet that it's fake, without ever having seen it...we sure seem to have a lot of clairvoyants on these boards...
...anyone want to give me the winning Mega Millions numbers for Friday? I'll give you the winnings, minus 15%... honest...
well Keets, first off....no guilt on this one. You did nothing wrong.
BUT, I will tell you what I did 20 years ago on a situation not quite like this but ....
I had a building in the Bay Area....next to a church....who never gave me a bad time when my commercial tenant parking spilled over onto their property because I jammed too many hi use tenants into my tilt up so I could get more rent. Churchs only need parking one or two days a week....so they just were exceptionally lenient neighbors. After several years....I sold the building and reaped a couple of dollars.
I went to the Pastor and donated several thousand dollars to the church to be used for their senior food program. That was the only program they had that appealed to me. Never saw the Pastor again and never inquired further about the program.
I believe it's called Quid pro Quo.....this for that. My latin is stale.
Why are you so sure the coin is genuine, oh wise sage?
Never said I was "sure" either way...however, unlike others here I won't proclaim something real or fake without at least seeing a pic first. I will say that I've never understood the logic (or lack thereof) behind inferring that all rare/key date items that haven't yet been slabbed must be garbage or fake. Believe it or not there are still a few people out there that don't need or want to have everything in a plastic coffin. Plus, it's certainly not a stretch to say that Barber coinage was well circulated as a rule- so it's entirely possible that a rare date could conceivably be in a random circ. mix from a fresh deal. And, the older the deal, the higher the chance it's real.
I'm not entirely sure of the authenticity of the coin, since you had to look up the date to realize it was something special. Is the mintmark correct, etc? There are some poorly done fakes, and some nicely done ones as well. Being that the date is so desireable, there's a lot of motivation for people to make counterfeits, and there should be a corresponding motivation to get any given example certified as the real deal.
I'm not convinced that you did anything wrong. The store I frequent is often busy. Workers scramble to meet the needs of buying customers and the sometimes-steady stream of sellers with a bag of gold/silver odds and ends. If they have time to look, they do; if not, they offer to look later. If the seller wants an immediate transaction, they count 'em up, remark on anything special enough to catch their eye, then offer them a blue book if they'd like to move to a quiet space to check out their coins and make an offer. That's about all you can do with the stuff most people bring in. I imagine things are different in stores offering lots of high-end material.
I'm not entirely sure of the authenticity of the coin, since you had to look up the date to realize it was something special.
OK...This has my vote for dumbest statement of the thread.
Enlighten me...How exactly does someone having to look something up to see if it's a better date... have anything, ANYTHING to do with the AUTHENTICITY of the item?
Comments
I voted. Now it's time for a Poll dance.
The entertainment can never be overdressed....except in burlesque
You are in a catch twenty two with doing what should be done and what you actually can do, which is probably nothing.
1. If things are too busy, make and appointment for a later date;
2. Have a Red Book handy for those coins that you are not familiar with;
3. Make it a point to get a customer's name and number for future follow-up, etc.;
4. Expect many customers to not know anything about coins and be prepared to walk them through the selling process.
If they have a lot of coins, perhaps suggesting that they purchase a Red Book and do a little research on their own.
<< <i>#1
I voted. Now it's time for a Poll dance.
Ummmm, that would be a "pole" dance, and, ummm....no thank you
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
YouTube pole dance gone bad
with 8 choices, I would think there'd be one I could jump on ...
1879-O{Rev}: 1st coin of my "secret set"
can memorize every date,variety, mintmark, double die, vam #, rpm...etc.
for every series and list of paterns that were EVER made...not enough room in anyones head.
this mistake DOES NOT make you a bad person...and if you can contact the man...its fixable.
this bell has been rung ...can't un-ring it.
these options are available off the top of my head...certainly there are more but its 6:49 am
and as an insomniac...i'm not really too on top of things right now.
your bosses ethics will be part of the equation and might affect your employment status.
BUT!...
if the coin shop were yours...AND...YOU WERE TOP MAN....AND...you could contact this guy...
you could:
explain your honest mistake to him AND.
explain its rarity to him, and that it should be graded if its to be sold.
explain that you wish to be fair to him....this will come back to you through new customers...(i'm a service oriented business...I know this to be true.)
offer to get it graded for him at his expense...explain how this will net larger profits...(some never get this.)
graded or not...all the info is out there to him...
graded or not...
1. offer him a fair "buyers" price for the coin.
2. explain its rarity to him and sell it back to him for what he was paid for it...you bought it as "junk" sell it as junk back to him....balls in his court.
you'll feel better better no matter what he does...your conscience was clear before...and now you'll get some satisfaction knowing your conscience was not ONLY clear...
BUT that you've actually helped some old guy out thats MAYBE selling his last valuables to live on.
"There by the grace of GOD goes I"... i try to live like that...and i too make many mistakes and fail many times in my walk.
Keets...you're not a bad person...i say this from your thought processes of the many things you've written here...i know if the right thing can be done... you'll do it.
edit:
if he can't be contacted...
maybe he's happy with what he got...but now you've learned a bit of something...refer to it next time this opportunity arises.
mike
<< <i>lots of questions floating around in between the imagined scenarios, so i cam up with a question and its answer myself. here it is: can anyone tell me the definition of self-righteous??
-----confident of one's own righteousness, esp. when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.
there now, this thread is really educational at last!!
I think the above post relates some rather unflattering implications. My only thought is that "self-righteous" and "honest" are two very different descriptors. You made a poll on how to make it right, but, by the above post, seem to imply that anyone suggesting actually making it right, is "self-righteous". My opinion is that it's time to let this subject fade away. If, as you've said, your "sleeping good", it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
from now on...
do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Put yourself in the other guy's shoes.
As I said to you privately, you should consider changing the store policy and procedures such that the next person who walks in with a 1901-S quarter does not get treated the same way. Hiding behind "that's not the way we do things" does not cut it. If the store procedures penalize people who bring in valuable coins to sell, they are not honorable. The cynic in me thinks that the modus operandi is the way it is to justify these fortuitous occasions, should they occur. ("We're too busy, can't look at each coin, don't want to bother people getting contact information, blah, blah, blah...)
If you are busy, you can even tell people up front: "We are too busy to look at each individual coin, and our offer is based on what typical examples are worth. When we have more time, we will study the coins more carefully. If we find that any of the coins are considerably more valuable than our initial assessment, we will contact you about getting more money to you."
<< <i>Since you don't have the opportunity to change the current scenario......
from now on...
do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Put yourself in the other guy's shoes. >>
Not bad, but in cases like this, I actually prefer to think of it more personally, as:
"Do unto others as you would want your own father/mother/grandfather/grandmother treated"
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
If you are busy, you can even tell people up front: "We are too busy to look at each individual coin, and our offer is based on what typical examples are worth. When we have more time, we will study the coins more carefully. If we find that any of the coins are considerably more valuable than our initial assessment, we will contact you about getting more money to you." >>
Hit on his grand-daughter (assuming she is legal).
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I was in yee ole coin shoppe yesterday. A nice lady brought in about 1000-1200 nickels in a box. All were pre 60's. The owner was waiting on several customers at once. He bought the nickels at a bulk price. Now what if he (or his vendor) finds a 42 D/D Horizontal in AU? Was she ripped. Hell no! The posters that call that a rip don't buy large bulk each day that usually goes to the wholesaler without being searched. If a shop owner has the time and staff to do lenghty searches for cherrys they should be paid well for the time invested.
<< <i>It's likely a moot point...it is probably fake anyway...most uncertified 1901-S are. Sorry to burst your bubble. >>
Not entirely true, but it brings up an interesting question, and I'll pose it to the people who want OP to track down the guy and immediately pay him all the money minus 15% (because, evidently, that's all any dealer should be allowed to make on something-but that's another issue)...
What if OP does as you suggest, then sends in the piece and it's bad? Tough cookies?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
AL
The information is then transfered to the sales slip.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
But for me, the fun part would be to finally contact the guy and say: "Man, you had a coin that was worth major $$!!" That would make my day...dunno, maybe that perspective would change if I were behind the counter.
<< <i>Nothing keets. You asked for the phone number and couldn't get it.
I was in yee ole coin shoppe yesterday. A nice lady brought in about 1000-1200 nickels in a box. All were pre 60's. The owner was waiting on several customers at once. He bought the nickels at a bulk price. Now what if he (or his vendor) finds a 42 D/D Horizontal in AU? Was she ripped. Hell no! The posters that call that a rip don't buy large bulk each day that usually goes to the wholesaler without being searched. If a shop owner has the time and staff to do lenghty searches for cherrys they should be paid well for the time invested. >>
That's not quite the same thing as a known keydate/mm like the 1901-S quarter.
Come on now....this isn't a VAM/slight overdate/variety/etc....this is a pretty well known issue that is key. I would HOPE that anyone with ANY time working in a coin shop would know the key dates for the common denominations......if not, I hope they learn them but I hope it isn't at the expense of unknowledgable folks that think they can trust the dealer.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
First off, your little "learn to read" comment is inflammatory and unnecessary. And I'm really glad you're here to point out the "obvious thing to do" for the rest of us. It appears you are the one who is challenged in reading comprehension. My question was a hypothetical assuming the money was paid prior to slabbing; I was simply curious to hear some responses.
I for one detect more than just a smidge of hypocrisy by some on this thread who, if they had lucked into something similar, would rush to this board to crow about their rip. I commend the OP for seeking opinions, and FWIW here's my opinion...since evidently you've already attempted to contact the guy and had no luck (correct?), then I'd sleep easy knowing you gave it a shot. If the guy comes back, kick him something extra on the next deal. He'll be happy and so will you.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
One was a 1896-S quarter. I don't know much about quarters but I kind of knew that date/mm was ringing in my ears for some reason so I took a minute to open the redbook.
I then, because I couldn't grade these, took pictures, let him know my plans, posted them here, got thoughts on it, and eventually had it slabbed (ANACS...it was cleaned), and sold as such on ebay.
Gave him all the money (he did give me some money for my time/effort, but I asked for none and refused...I do understand a business should be compensated though, so a business doing what I did should be expected to get some funds).
So, all I am trying to say by the above is that, even I, who I consider a HUGE novice in most series, recognize many of the key dates/mint marks and, if I can, I would hope someone "in the business" can as well.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>That's not quite the same thing as a known keydate/mm like the 1901-S quarter. >>
Your right of course Bochiman it's not the same. However, any high dollar coin that is picked up in a bulk buy, unsearched by buyer and unknown by seller is the point. Maybe the shop keets works at has a policy to search or try to search each coin in a bulk buy. If that is a policy of the shop owner I think RYK's post would be the most valid.
Even though the original post no longer is in this thread keets did mention he had asked the bulk seller for a phone number and it was not offered. 1. The seller didn't invest any time or effort apparently in researching his holdings or their value. 2. A fair offer of a bulk transaction was offered and accepted. 3. The seller was asked for information that could have allowed the shop to contact him after a detailed search of the bulk had been conducted, but the seller didn't want to offer such info. 4. This thread has gone on ad-nausium.
...anyone want to give me the winning Mega Millions numbers for Friday? I'll give you the winnings, minus 15%... honest...
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
He knew he had a counterfit coin and is sitting back laughing his azz off reading all the comments he has stirred up on this Forum
GrandAm
BUT, I will tell you what I did 20 years ago on a situation not quite like this but ....
I had a building in the Bay Area....next to a church....who never gave me a bad time when my commercial tenant parking spilled over onto their property because I jammed too many hi use tenants into my tilt up so I could get more rent. Churchs only need parking one or two days a week....so they just were exceptionally lenient neighbors. After several years....I sold the building and reaped a couple of dollars.
I went to the Pastor and donated several thousand dollars to the church to be used for their senior food program. That was the only program they had that appealed to me. Never saw the Pastor again and never inquired further about the program.
I believe it's called Quid pro Quo.....this for that. My latin is stale.
DO whatever makes you feel good. No guilt.
Never said I was "sure" either way...however, unlike others here I won't proclaim something real or fake without at least seeing a pic first. I will say that I've never understood the logic (or lack thereof) behind inferring that all rare/key date items that haven't yet been slabbed must be garbage or fake. Believe it or not there are still a few people out there that don't need or want to have everything in a plastic coffin. Plus, it's certainly not a stretch to say that Barber coinage was well circulated as a rule- so it's entirely possible that a rare date could conceivably be in a random circ. mix from a fresh deal. And, the older the deal, the higher the chance it's real.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
what's wrong, don't you trust my opinion??
--Franz Kafka
OK...This has my vote for dumbest statement of the thread.
Enlighten me...How exactly does someone having to look something up to see if it's a better date... have anything, ANYTHING to do with the AUTHENTICITY of the item?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
bring 4 barber quarters (including this one) to see what they are worth
after they give you an offer, you will find you overpaid the old man already
(probably just keep the quarters)