Is Manny A HOFer?
caramelcollector
Posts: 185
I am not sure anymore,i dont want my boys to cheat and get in.
What do you all think?
What do you all think?
0
Comments
The bar shouldn't be that only the cheaters that put up the best stats are in. Either you ignore the steroids or you ignore the players that are known or highly assumed to have used them.
I think A-rod and Manny are murking the waters a bit about the steroid users.
<< <i>I suppose the answer starts with are Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Alex Rodriguez, and Roger Clemens hall of famers.
The bar shouldn't be that only the cheaters that put up the best stats are in. Either you ignore the steroids or you ignore the players that are known or highly assumed to have used them. >>
Lets get the facts out. The Hall of Fame has standards, INTEGERITY.
McGwire, Refuses to show any integerity.
Sosa, Refused to show any integerity. Denied.
Bonds, Questionable. Did he know what he was taking? If you say yes, Lets see the proof. You were not their when Anderson talked to Bonds about he substances. Only they know the truth. Bonds could easy have said "I don't want to know what it is, just tell me how to use it"
Clemens, Refuses to show any integerity. Denied.
Rodriguez, has showed total integerity. Came clean.
Manny, waite and see. He has not come clean yet. So far no integerity.
Palmeiro, no integerity. Denies everything then fails a Steroid Test.
Giambi, Complete integerity. No denials.
The answer is simple it's Manny's decision.
All of these players have the numbers, but who has the integrity? Facts: Pete Rose has the numbers but has no inttegerity to the game.
Dave
<< <i>
<< <i>
Rodriguez, has showed total integerity. Came clean.
Dave >>
What? You have to be kidding. He flat out denied it in a live TV interview a few years ago and only came clean when he was outed, otherwise we would have been none the wiser. No integrity shown at all.
unless mattingly gets in
I don't think anyone linked to performance enhancers should get in the HOF. If they keep Pete Rose out, how can they let these guys in?
<< <i>there will be years that nobody gets in then........NO HOF CLASS wow
unless mattingly gets in >>
Could be that if there is such a drought, guys like Santo, Hodges, Blyleven, etc. will see some action from the Veteran's Committee.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Cobb- Racist
Mantle- womanizing drunk
etc.
It is not the fact they did not have integrity, it is the fact that they cheated on the game. Rose and Jackson committed the ultimate sins, they cheated the game. That is what most have deemed the steroid users, as players who cheated the game. Just coming clean is not going to do it. Rose wrote that he was sorry he bet on baseball on a baseball and he still can't get in.
I mention Manny and Arod because Manny has probably had the biggest bounce back ever. I mean he tested positive while active, no speculation, and the fans could not wait for him to get back. The whole thing will completely blow over after his first home game after the All Star break. He is really changing the attitude towards steroid users.
The punishment for drug use is measured in games, the punishment for betting on your own team or accepting money from gamblers is measured in lifetimes. If they cheated the game the same, why such extreme difference?
Bonds and McGwire never failed drug tests. Obviously there is enough evidence to conclude that they were drug users, but if the voters really did care, why did they wait years and decades before asking the league to do anything?
Why do we have these same discussions without any new insight every week?
"Molon Labe"
<< <i>Yankees011, Since when is ignorance an excuse? "Don't tell me whats in this". That's a new one. Let's see any other person try using that as an excuse on a drug test. >>
This is true ignorance. Who is Yankees011?
If you don't know what you are taking, are you lieing? No, you don't have all the facts you should.
Like I said with Bonds, we will see. I believe he will have his day in court.
Like I said before you must show integerity. If Bonds is telling the truth, he has integrity. Like it or not
Dave
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Rodriguez, has showed total integerity. Came clean.
Dave >>
What? You have to be kidding. He flat out denied it in a live TV interview a few years ago and only came clean when he was outed, otherwise we would have been none the wiser. No integrity shown at all. >>
I would say he has integerity. When the report came out, he admitted it.
That interview years ago is invalid. The 2003 test was never suppose to be released. Their for anything involving it is invalid. When it came out he came clean.
Palmiero, Clemens and Sosa still says they never did steroids.
A-Rod restored his integerity.
Dave
<< <i>No, no, no and no.
I don't think anyone linked to performance enhancers should get in the HOF. If they keep Pete Rose out, how can they let these guys in? >>
Easy. What Rose did was against the rules of the game.
1884-2003 steroids were not against the rules of the game. Their is a big difference.
1 broke the rules, the others played by the rules.
I don't support steroids, but if it is allowed use them.
Dave
<< <i>Yankees001 based on that we could add to the list:
Cobb- Racist
Mantle- womanizing drunk
etc.
It is not the fact they did not have integrity, it is the fact that they cheated on the game. Rose and Jackson committed the ultimate sins, they cheated the game. That is what most have deemed the steroid users, as players who cheated the game. Just coming clean is not going to do it. Rose wrote that he was sorry he bet on baseball on a baseball and he still can't get in.
I mention Manny and Arod because Manny has probably had the biggest bounce back ever. I mean he tested positive while active, no speculation, and the fans could not wait for him to get back. The whole thing will completely blow over after his first home game after the All Star break. He is really changing the attitude towards steroid users. >>
You just showed ingorance. You must consider players in the era they palyed. Who in the US was not a racist in the early 1900's? I guess anyone playing from 1884 till the 1950's-1960's (according to history) needs to be thrown out of the Hall.
Mantle a drunk and womanizer? I guess we need to toss everyone out of the Hall again that played from 1884-1980's who was a drunk or a womanizer.
Congradulations everyone, the Hall of Fame is full of Sports Writers and Announcers. No players.
Dave
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Will 75% of the voting members of the BBWAA vote for Manny on their Hall of Fame ballot? I don't think so as some voters have gone on record as saying they will never vote for a player who has tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs or was suspected of using them during his career.
/s/ JackWESQ
<< <i>Ok, so who is the troll back under the alt. ID Yankees001? It has to be Mintacular or illinifan. There cannot be someone actually this stupid. >>
You are not talking to Mintacular.
It's about the rules.
If the rules are not broken. Then their was no cheating.
No one likes it, it's just the way it is. If you do something today, and a law gets passed tomorrow making it illegal are you a criminal?
Personally I'm against Steroids. BUT, as long as MLB rules are not broken it was approved by the comminish.
Dave
<< <i>
<< <i>No, no, no and no.
I don't think anyone linked to performance enhancers should get in the HOF. If they keep Pete Rose out, how can they let these guys in? >>
Easy. What Rose did was against the rules of the game.
1884-2003 steroids were not against the rules of the game. Their is a big difference.
1 broke the rules, the others played by the rules.
I don't support steroids, but if it is allowed use them.
Dave >>
I don't think steroids were ever legal to use in the game. There just weren't any rules against it.
Didn't Fay Vincent make them illegal in 1993? The testing didn't start until 2003.
<< <i>If you do something today, and a law gets passed tomorrow making it illegal are you a criminal? >>
You could be. Such a law would be an ex post facto law and you could be criminally prosecuted as long as the law were not held unconstitutional.
/s/ JackWESQ
<< <i>Does an apology validate tainted accomplishments? >>
NO!
<< <i>
<< <i>
Easy. What Rose did was against the rules of the game.
1884-2003 steroids were not against the rules of the game. Their is a big difference.
1 broke the rules, the others played by the rules.
I don't support steroids, but if it is allowed use them.
Dave >>
I don't think steroids were ever legal to use in the game. There just weren't any rules against it.
Didn't Fay Vincent make them illegal in 1993? The testing didn't start until 2003. >>
This is correct and Mintacular is 100% wrong. The use of PED's was banned in the early 1990's. There was no testing because the MLBPA was against it and threatened to walk.
So it was against the rules = cheating. And as mentioned, against the law.
"Commissioner Vincent's memorandum contained the following provisions:
• The possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by major league players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Those involved in the possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game."
Source
I think Bonds will get in eventually. The roids players that never tested positive will have an edge over the other tainted players.
<< <i>Does an apology validate tainted accomplishments? >>
/////////////////////
The apologies are good, but maybe not good enough to get the needed votes.
It's not just about "cheating," or "law breaking," or "rule breaking." It's also,
maybe most importantly, an issue of "tainted accomplishments."
An apology cannot undo the screwed-up record books. Those books are a
great part of what baseball is all about.
........
Because my moral compass is what it is, I would certainly support the needed
"waivers" to the steroid gang, IF Pete Rose was allowed in the HOF during
his lifetime.
..................
About 10% of top-players today have Ritalin waivers. If you want to know
if Ritalin - SPEED - is a performance enhancing drug, pop just ONE and go
play a round of golf.
America spends $Billions fighting the "war on meth," but MLB grants waivers
to the players who get a letter from a QUACK that says "the guy needs it."
Mickey Mantle and many of his drunken contemporaries actually DID "need
it" to get sober enough to play, on many occasions.
............
<< <i>
<< <i>I suppose the answer starts with are Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Alex Rodriguez, and Roger Clemens hall of famers.
The bar shouldn't be that only the cheaters that put up the best stats are in. Either you ignore the steroids or you ignore the players that are known or highly assumed to have used them. >>
Lets get the facts out. The Hall of Fame has standards, INTEGERITY.
McGwire, Refuses to show any integerity.
Sosa, Refused to show any integerity. Denied.
Bonds, Questionable. Did he know what he was taking? If you say yes, Lets see the proof. You were not their when Anderson talked to Bonds about he substances. Only they know the truth. Bonds could easy have said "I don't want to know what it is, just tell me how to use it"
Clemens, Refuses to show any integerity. Denied.
Rodriguez, has showed total integerity. Came clean.
>>
Rodriguez, has showed total integerity. Came clean. >>
I guess you missed the part where during a nationally televised interview with Katie Couric, he LIED about ever using steroids, HGH, or any other banned substance. Here's a link in case you missed it. Total Integrity.
That's "total integrity?" Time to take off those Yankee blinders.
<< <i>The use of PED's was banned in the early 1990's. There was no testing because the MLBPA was against it and threatened to walk.
So it was against the rules = cheating. And as mentioned, against the law. >>
Imagine if the Olympics said there would be no testing and everyone in 100 meter finals or the weightlifting medalists were held to the honor standards
Actually they did try that over 40 years ago and guys were walking around at the events with their drugs virtually out in the open
The fact that baseball tried the same approach so many decades later when it is so obviously a failure severly blurs the code the sport and fans were asking its players to follow
<< <i> Those books are a
great part of what baseball is all about. >>
The books are nothing more than black ink on white paper. It is our interpretation of what it means and what it represents that makes it so great.
<< <i>Also you do know they are illegal right? >>
Do you know that there are already illegal drug users in the Hall-of-Fame? Voted in by the same writers who refuse to vote for McGwire
Probably not.
Steve
(Great hitter + great production) - (piss poor attitude at times + positive drug test )= toss up IMO.
would he have been a HOFer based upon his pre-steroid numbers/extrapolated? If so, he's in.
Therefore: Bonds, Clemens, Manny and ARod are in
Sosa, Palmeiro, McGwire are not
Based on the treatment McGwire has received, Manny will not get in.
His performance, compared to his peers, he has certain merit...
Which begs the question. If nearly all his peers were doing it too, is measuring vs. one's peers just as valid here as it is in other era's(well at least 85% as valid).
These guys are no longer comparable to the other era's, well at least not with the methods used now(yes, even the advanced current sabermetric measurements don't account properly), but they may be comparable enough to each other to proclaim the best of the best from this era.
What kind of Hall of Fame is it going to be when this era only includes a handful of players who are supposed clean(probably just not caught).
"Molon Labe"