<< <i>If Pete Rose can't get in just because he had a gambling problem, then these juiced up losers shouldn't either. >>
Though I don't condone what Pete did, I tend to agree with this.
Pete's stats were NOT padded, unlike these guys taking HGH and steriods. Furthermore, as far as I know (and I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong), when Pete did bet on baseball, he never bet against his team, always for his team to win. There's a big difference, in my opinion, because that would mean Pete never tanked a game.
I think there is one player that never gets mentioned and in my opinion was definitely a "Juicer".
He was the face of the franchise for years.
He was in a huge market.
He was barely drafted, as a favor to the family.
He was the greatest offensive player at his position.
He was know has a weird guy that didn't have a great work ethic.
His name never surfaced because of his injuries (possibly juice related) and he quick taper and the end of his career.
His name.........MIKE PIAZZA....................
His numbers make him a HOFer but looking at him, is injuries, his body, and the time he played with the other players in similair situation makes look like a JUICER.
PS******* its not fair what congress did to those players, congress and bud selig have lost integrity as well.
I have a greater respect for McGwire because he didn't go up there and lie like raffie or pretend he was lost like Sosa.
McGwire simply said, what and why are you doing this? how does this help?
and a bunch of old time political figures try to justify "its for the good of america"
can we pull up every public offical in front of congress and ask in they are cheating on their wife? because that may not be in the best interest of America? and the past has shown that this happens regularly.
let them all into the Hall of Fame. (period).
Buying: Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon 80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name" 90 ProSet Dexter Manley error 90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back 1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”) 81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat) 91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
I love it. Manny and Arod have integrity because they came clean. They came clean only after they got caught red handed. And as mentioned, Arod denied it initially. Then realized he was busted and admitted it. Anybody with "real" integrity would have never juiced in the first place. No way these guys deserve to be in the HOF. Never.
After all the recent revelations of players using HGH and the like, it's hard not to dismiss the accomplishments of current players.
Take Albert Pujols, for instance. Love watching him play, and I really hope he's clean. First player EVER to hit 30 HRs in first 8 seasons! Too good to be true? I have my doubts at this point.
<< <i>After all the recent revelations of players using HGH and the like, it's hard not to dismiss the accomplishments of current players.
Take Albert Pujols, for instance. Love watching him play, and I really hope he's clean. First player EVER to hit 30 HRs in first 8 seasons! Too good to be true? I have my doubts at this point. >>
I agree. I'm in no way claiming Pujols is using. I do hope is is clean. Baseball needs that. But in this era everybody is suspected. Plus Pujols broke in when steroids where widely used. A physical Bonds/Sosa "then and now" were easy to compare because they were so skinny when they broke in and so ripped later. This is purely thinking out loud, but what if Pujols was already juicing before he broke in? He was already big as a rookie, so the physical then and now comparison is harder to use. Just saying and not accusing.
I want to defend Rafael Palmeiro, since we all seem to make a blanket statement over who did what, when, etc. Yes Raffy had a positive test. So why did he go before Congress and blatently lie, so defiantly 6 months prior? It makes no sense, what so ever. Palmeiro paid for his sins more dearly than Manny or Arod did, which is unfair, but that's how it goes sometimes. If you've been tuned into the sports world you know Mr. Palmeiro was in Lubbock over the 4th of July for the College Baseball Hall of Fame Induction. Pedro Gomez was there too. You saw bits and pieces of the interview on SportsCenter. You saw Raffy wants the list of 103 because he's not on it. Would that not vindicate him and support his story he received something tainted? The dude didn't waste his money, he was not hanging on to collect another million dollar contract.
I was out there in Lubbock, as I am a volunteer with the College Baseball Foundation. I've been doing this for 5 years and each year we have pretty close access to these guys (driving them to events, hanging out at the receiptions, sitting by them at the autograph signings, etc) and Raffy was sincere the entire time. What you didn't see air was his acceptance speech (hopefully it will be on the website soon) where he broke and cried, thanked the HOF board, and appreciated everything that we'd done for him.
I tend to believe the guy and hope the truth comes out. Do we hold anything against Gaylord Perry because he'd Vasoline up a ball to make it move? To me that challenges the integrity of the game as well. Its just somehow accepted. It will be very interesting to see how this all plays out as these guys from this era start to retire and reach the 5 year waiting period to become HOF eligible.
There are some good points here. My question is, how long from now, if at all, will all of these players be forgiven? If performance enhancers weren't "against MLB rules" until 2004, will that help these cases out? I don't think Manny gets in and I don't think any of the others who tested will in the next 10 years. I think you'll find players like Dale Murphy, Andre Dawson and other players that are close, get in this next decade.
I tend to believe the guy and hope the truth comes out. Do we hold anything against Gaylord Perry because he'd Vasoline up a ball to make it move? To me that challenges the integrity of the game as well. Its just somehow accepted. It will be very interesting to see how this all plays out as these guys from this era start to retire and reach the 5 year waiting period to become HOF eligible.
<< <i>Do you know that there are already illegal drug users in the Hall-of-Fame? Voted in by the same writers who refuse to vote for McGwire >>
A line was drawn between recreational drug use and "performance enhancing" drug use.
Whether that perception is an educated one or not is beside the point, but that's how it is.
So, while you think that all drugs are the same, others consider that as off the mark as saying "all plants are the same" or "all colors are the same."
Drug addictions, gambling/betting addictions can be considered an illness, or even a disease, like alcoholism! And big sports should allow their players, coaches and managers a chance at recovery. And if an individual's drug/gambling treatment recovery program is indeed deemed a success, "...a place in the Hall", ..."could be in the cards", ...if deserved.
While performance enhancing drugs, like steroids, gives players that are "users", unfair advantages, and in my opinion, is cheating and is far worse than betting or drug addiction, or recreational illegal drug usage in sports.
That's why I believe even a Pete Rose should be reconsidered by baseball, for entry into the HOF, as gambling has long been considered an addiction, and Pete's unreal record speaks for itself!!! He is worthy for the HOF, and after all this time, should be forgiven by MLB for his gambling/betting issues!
<< <i>Drug addictions, gambling/betting addictions can be considered an illness, or even a disease, like alcoholism! And big sports should allow their players, coaches and managers a chance at recovery. And if an individual's drug/gambling treatment recovery program is indeed deemed a success, "...a place in the Hall", ..."could be in the cards", ...if deserved.
While performance enhancing drugs, like steroids, gives players that are "users", unfair advantages, and in my opinion, is cheating and is far worse than betting or drug addiction, or recreational illegal drug usage in sports.
That's why I believe even a Pete Rose should be reconsidered by baseball, for entry into the HOF, as gambling has long been considered an addiction, and Pete's unreal record speaks for itself!!! He is worthy for the HOF, and after all this time, should be forgiven by MLB for his gambling/betting issues!
rd (Pete Rose fan! LOL!)
>>
I think Pete is worthy of reconsideration as well. You can't argue with his career numbers. They are nothing short of amazing, personal flaws notwithstanding. Somebody mentioned Gaylord Perry and Vaseline, which absolutely constitutes cheating. To think that Gaylord Perry is in the HOF and not Rose seems counter intuitive to me.
and for the 2 examples often used in this post of a clean player...
Cobb and all his 19th Century/deadball friends (Lajoie, Wagner, Speaker, Kelly, Anson, Collins, Brouthers, etc. etc.) were often high on cocaine "Coke" the day of the game (not the drink, or maybe the drink too?? since Cobb owned much of the company/stock back then)
Mantle (especially), Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Koufax, Gibson, Ford, Killebrew, etc. etc. were almost all on speed/meth called "greenies"..... a very easy little pill to take to get some pep for the game that day. Most players from the 1960s-70s know all about these little magic pills.
Bonds (2nd greatest hitter of all time), Manny, Pujols, ARod, and all the others with their million $$ home gyms and protein supplements are all part of the steroid era, and all are HOFers.... period! Greatest players of ea. era get in!
The best of ea. era gets in..... thats what the Hall is about, not some church room full of goody goodys...... otherwise Dale Murphy would be in there with Christy Mathewson.
and for the 2 examples often used in this post of a clean player...
Cobb and all his 19th Century/deadball friends (Lajoie, Wagner, Speaker, Kelly, Anson, Collins, Brouthers, etc. etc.) were often high on cocaine "Coke" the day of the game (not the drink, or maybe the drink too?? since Cobb owned much of the company/stock back then)
Mantle (especially), Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Koufax, Gibson, Ford, Killebrew, etc. etc. were almost all on speed/meth called "greenies"..... a very easy little pill to take to get some pep for the game that day. Most players from the 1960s-70s know all about these little magic pills.
Bonds (2nd greatest hitter of all time), Manny, Pujols, ARod, and all the others with their million $$ home gyms and protein supplements are all part of the steroid era, and all are HOFers.... period! Greatest players of ea. era get in!
The best of ea. era gets in..... thats what the Hall is about, not some church room full of goody goodys...... otherwise Dale Murphy would be in there with Christy Mathewson.
You can draw all the paralells you want between players who used speed (cocaine, speed, etc.) and the steroid users, but there is a fundamental difference between a player who's looking to get wired for a few hours and a player who methodically injects himself with substances which will build muscle and body mass as well as enable said player to recover from injury faster and train harder. Coke and speed allow for none of these advantages. In fact, it may be argued that such recreational drugs will actually IMPEDE a player's performance over the long term, or in other words, have the exact opposite effect of HGH or anabolic steroids. Just ask Doc Gooden or Darryl Strawberry...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I have not taken the time to read this whole thread but want to chime in-
I admit for purely entertainment I wlove seeing guys hit monsterous HR and put up "Playsation #'s" and no matter what I absolutely LOVED the McGwire & Sosa Hr chase of '98 and even more the Barry Bonds record season!
That being said I will say for a HOF standpoint and record standpoint it is absolutely unfair to give these guys credit in comparison to non steroid players, there is no doubt in my mind that these numbers will be forever tarnished.
I think without PEDs it would have been possible to break the 60 & 755 marks but unfortunately I dont believe there will ever be a ballplayer that will be 100% clean, science will find away for these guys to continue to cheat in some way without being detected. If you put these guys in the HOF will not be the same, I dont know the answer- its an ugly situation for baseball.
there will be years that nobody gets in then........NO HOF CLASS wow
Hopefully before that happens someone like Barry Larkin would get in.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
there will be years that nobody gets in then........NO HOF CLASS wow
Hopefully before that happens someone like Barry Larkin would get in. >>
Got a chance to drive around with Barry and his wife when they were in Lubbock last week for the College HOF, what a class act. Real personable guy, him and his wife boy. No trace of big league-itis what so ever. Signed and signed for anyone who wanted something. I sure hope he makes the MLB HOF because he is the definition of a class act in my book.
Comments
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<< <i>If Pete Rose can't get in just because he had a gambling problem, then these juiced up losers shouldn't either. >>
Though I don't condone what Pete did, I tend to agree with this.
Pete's stats were NOT padded, unlike these guys taking HGH and steriods. Furthermore, as far as I know (and I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong), when Pete did bet on baseball, he never bet against his team, always for his team to win. There's a big difference, in my opinion, because that would mean Pete never tanked a game.
He was the face of the franchise for years.
He was in a huge market.
He was barely drafted, as a favor to the family.
He was the greatest offensive player at his position.
He was know has a weird guy that didn't have a great work ethic.
His name never surfaced because of his injuries (possibly juice related) and he quick taper and the end of his career.
His name.........MIKE PIAZZA....................
His numbers make him a HOFer but looking at him, is injuries, his body, and the time he played with the other players in similair situation makes look like a JUICER.
PS*******
its not fair what congress did to those players, congress and bud selig have lost integrity as well.
I have a greater respect for McGwire because he didn't go up there and lie like raffie or pretend he was lost like Sosa.
McGwire simply said, what and why are you doing this? how does this help?
and a bunch of old time political figures try to justify "its for the good of america"
can we pull up every public offical in front of congress and ask in they are cheating on their wife? because that may not be in the best interest of America? and the past has shown that this happens regularly.
let them all into the Hall of Fame. (period).
Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
<< <i>Manny= Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Clemens, Ect..Ect..Ect..Ect..Ect..Ect..Ect..Ect..Ect..Ect.Ect..Ect..Ect..Ect..Ect...Ect..Ect..Ect..Ect..Ect.. >>
It's "etc" not "ect".
Tabe
Take Albert Pujols, for instance. Love watching him play, and I really hope he's clean. First player EVER to hit 30 HRs in first 8 seasons! Too good to be true? I have my doubts at this point.
McGwire doesn't belong anyway. A roided up one trick pony.
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<< <i>After all the recent revelations of players using HGH and the like, it's hard not to dismiss the accomplishments of current players.
Take Albert Pujols, for instance. Love watching him play, and I really hope he's clean. First player EVER to hit 30 HRs in first 8 seasons! Too good to be true? I have my doubts at this point. >>
I agree. I'm in no way claiming Pujols is using. I do hope is is clean. Baseball needs that. But in this era everybody is suspected. Plus Pujols broke in when steroids where widely used. A physical Bonds/Sosa "then and now" were easy to compare because they were so skinny when they broke in and so ripped later. This is purely thinking out loud, but what if Pujols was already juicing before he broke in? He was already big as a rookie, so the physical then and now comparison is harder to use. Just saying and not accusing.
I was out there in Lubbock, as I am a volunteer with the College Baseball Foundation. I've been doing this for 5 years and each year we have pretty close access to these guys (driving them to events, hanging out at the receiptions, sitting by them at the autograph signings, etc) and Raffy was sincere the entire time. What you didn't see air was his acceptance speech (hopefully it will be on the website soon) where he broke and cried, thanked the HOF board, and appreciated everything that we'd done for him.
I tend to believe the guy and hope the truth comes out. Do we hold anything against Gaylord Perry because he'd Vasoline up a ball to make it move? To me that challenges the integrity of the game as well. Its just somehow accepted. It will be very interesting to see how this all plays out as these guys from this era start to retire and reach the 5 year waiting period to become HOF eligible.
College Baseball Foundation Home Page
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College Baseball Foundation Home Page >>
Another great point. Should Gaylord Perry be kicked out of the HOF? Seems to me he was "cheating" and probably would not have the numbers otherwise.
<< <i>Do you know that there are already illegal drug users in the Hall-of-Fame? Voted in by the same writers who refuse to vote for McGwire >>
A line was drawn between recreational drug use and "performance enhancing" drug use.
Whether that perception is an educated one or not is beside the point, but that's how it is.
So, while you think that all drugs are the same, others consider that as off the mark as saying "all plants are the same" or "all colors are the same."
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
McGwire doesn't belong anyway. A roided up one trick pony. >>
Aw come on, he won a Gold Glove. Sure, it was completely undeserved and only won because Don Mattingly was injured, but he's got one!
Tabe
Drug addictions, gambling/betting addictions can be considered an illness, or even a disease, like alcoholism! And big sports should allow their players, coaches and managers a chance at recovery. And if an individual's drug/gambling treatment recovery program is indeed deemed a success, "...a place in the Hall", ..."could be in the cards", ...if deserved.
While performance enhancing drugs, like steroids, gives players that are "users", unfair advantages, and in my opinion, is cheating and is far worse than betting or drug addiction, or recreational illegal drug usage in sports.
That's why I believe even a Pete Rose should be reconsidered by baseball, for entry into the HOF, as gambling has long been considered an addiction, and Pete's unreal record speaks for itself!!! He is worthy for the HOF, and after all this time, should be forgiven by MLB for his gambling/betting issues!
rd (Pete Rose fan! LOL!)
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My prediction is that Manny doesn't get 75% from the writers. Whether the Veterans Committee eventually chooses him is a different matter.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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<< <i>Drug addictions, gambling/betting addictions can be considered an illness, or even a disease, like alcoholism! And big sports should allow their players, coaches and managers a chance at recovery. And if an individual's drug/gambling treatment recovery program is indeed deemed a success, "...a place in the Hall", ..."could be in the cards", ...if deserved.
While performance enhancing drugs, like steroids, gives players that are "users", unfair advantages, and in my opinion, is cheating and is far worse than betting or drug addiction, or recreational illegal drug usage in sports.
That's why I believe even a Pete Rose should be reconsidered by baseball, for entry into the HOF, as gambling has long been considered an addiction, and Pete's unreal record speaks for itself!!! He is worthy for the HOF, and after all this time, should be forgiven by MLB for his gambling/betting issues!
rd (Pete Rose fan! LOL!)
I think Pete is worthy of reconsideration as well. You can't argue with his career numbers. They are nothing short of amazing, personal flaws notwithstanding. Somebody mentioned Gaylord Perry and Vaseline, which absolutely constitutes cheating. To think that Gaylord Perry is in the HOF and not Rose seems counter intuitive to me.
and for the 2 examples often used in this post of a clean player...
Cobb and all his 19th Century/deadball friends (Lajoie, Wagner, Speaker, Kelly, Anson, Collins, Brouthers, etc. etc.) were often high on cocaine "Coke" the day of the game (not the drink, or maybe the drink too?? since Cobb owned much of the company/stock back then)
Mantle (especially), Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Koufax, Gibson, Ford, Killebrew, etc. etc. were almost all on speed/meth called "greenies"..... a very easy little pill to take to get some pep for the game that day. Most players from the 1960s-70s know all about these little magic pills.
Bonds (2nd greatest hitter of all time), Manny, Pujols, ARod, and all the others with their million $$ home gyms and protein supplements are all part of the steroid era, and all are HOFers.... period! Greatest players of ea. era get in!
The best of ea. era gets in..... thats what the Hall is about, not some church room full of goody goodys...... otherwise Dale Murphy would be in there with Christy Mathewson.
and for the 2 examples often used in this post of a clean player...
Cobb and all his 19th Century/deadball friends (Lajoie, Wagner, Speaker, Kelly, Anson, Collins, Brouthers, etc. etc.) were often high on cocaine "Coke" the day of the game (not the drink, or maybe the drink too?? since Cobb owned much of the company/stock back then)
Mantle (especially), Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Koufax, Gibson, Ford, Killebrew, etc. etc. were almost all on speed/meth called "greenies"..... a very easy little pill to take to get some pep for the game that day. Most players from the 1960s-70s know all about these little magic pills.
Bonds (2nd greatest hitter of all time), Manny, Pujols, ARod, and all the others with their million $$ home gyms and protein supplements are all part of the steroid era, and all are HOFers.... period! Greatest players of ea. era get in!
The best of ea. era gets in..... thats what the Hall is about, not some church room full of goody goodys...... otherwise Dale Murphy would be in there with Christy Mathewson.
You can draw all the paralells you want between players who used speed (cocaine, speed, etc.) and the steroid users, but there is a fundamental difference between a player who's looking to get wired for a few hours and a player who methodically injects himself with substances which will build muscle and body mass as well as enable said player to recover from injury faster and train harder. Coke and speed allow for none of these advantages. In fact, it may be argued that such recreational drugs will actually IMPEDE a player's performance over the long term, or in other words, have the exact opposite effect of HGH or anabolic steroids. Just ask Doc Gooden or Darryl Strawberry...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I admit for purely entertainment I wlove seeing guys hit monsterous HR and put up "Playsation #'s" and no matter what I absolutely LOVED the McGwire & Sosa Hr chase of '98 and even more the Barry Bonds record season!
That being said I will say for a HOF standpoint and record standpoint it is absolutely unfair to give these guys credit in comparison to non steroid players, there is no doubt in my mind that these numbers will be forever tarnished.
I think without PEDs it would have been possible to break the 60 & 755 marks but unfortunately I dont believe there will ever be a ballplayer that will be 100% clean, science will find away for these guys to continue to cheat in some way without being detected. If you put these guys in the HOF will not be the same, I dont know the answer- its an ugly situation for baseball.
there will be years that nobody gets in then........NO HOF CLASS wow
Hopefully before that happens someone like Barry Larkin would get in.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
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<< <i><<<<<<<Reds Fan
there will be years that nobody gets in then........NO HOF CLASS wow
Hopefully before that happens someone like Barry Larkin would get in. >>
Got a chance to drive around with Barry and his wife when they were in Lubbock last week for the College HOF, what a class act. Real personable guy, him and his wife boy. No trace of big league-itis what so ever. Signed and signed for anyone who wanted something. I sure hope he makes the MLB HOF because he is the definition of a class act in my book.
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<< <i>I am not sure anymore,i dont want my boys to cheat and get in.
What do you all think? >>
I say no, because he was caught...no suspecting, flat out busted...plus I like Manny as much as I do Bonds which is nada