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The absurdity of plastic - New NGC Black slab

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  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Amazingly, this slab has gone down in price only once in 22 years and that was right after 9/11/2001 when I was able to swoop and buy two $20 1924 Saints in MS-61 and MS-62 (one gold stickered and one green stickered) at only $700 each which was still way over the gold coin price at the time.

    Is that the case in 1990-1993 went the market tanked and things like PF65 Mercs went down hard. This was on blue sheet in May 1989 for $700. It was worth more than that in 1991-93?

    Prediction; you will not be able to buy anything in a black NGC slab for under $2000 within two years or less. Even if the NGC slab is partially damaged as long as it is clearly original. The buyers simply don't care.

    Over time, whether it be several years, 10 years, 20 years or 100 years, that the premium assigned to these black slabs will eventually shrink to zero. That is, the value will be dependent on the coin itself. I could easily see this with the demise of the TPG's and some other type of grading system altogether. It's only a matter of time because the spread between plastic and coin has to retrace back to 0%. Are there any other US coins/sets where the original packaging can add up 50X to 100X to the value of the coin? Off the top of my head I can think of the King of Siam proof set holder, orig Pan Pac set holders, orig classic commem packing, etc. but in none of those historic cases does the holder add much more that 10-100%.

    As far as markets always being right.....I give you Dutch tulips in 1634 and USA beanie babies to counter that argument. Those "markets" were somewhat real for a while, were merely manias or fads. As long as there is another to carry the torch, it lives on.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • As far as markets always being right.....I give you Dutch tulips in 1634 and USA beanie babies to counter that argument. Those "markets" were somewhat real for a while, were merely manias or fads. As long as there is another to carry the torch, it lives on.

    Exactly. There was a bustling market for Dutch tulips and beanie babies but then the market weakened (and basically died). That's the market. Now, speculators and such are another animal altogether.

    i can compare it to a needle of a spedometer. The needle is the market. Where the needle points is determined by dealers, investors (speculators), and collectors.
    A lie told often enough becomes the truth. ~Vladimir Lenin
  • TrainNutTrainNut Posts: 140 ✭✭


    << <i>That, my friend, is one of the OLDEST NGC slabs you can find.

    Folks pay HEALTHY premiums for coins within those slabs.

    NGC Slab Generations >>

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,771 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> Are there any other US coins/sets where the original packaging can add up 50X to 100X to the value of the coin? Off the top of my head I can think of the King of Siam proof set holder, orig Pan Pac set holders, orig classic commem packing, etc. but in none of those historic cases does the holder add much more that 10-100%. >>



    (1) GSA silver dollars in the unopened sealed white boxes? They go for about 300% over the probable coin value.
    (2) Many obw rolls in tougher dates/mm - some over 100%
    (3) 1982 and 1983 souvenir mint like sets sold at the US mint stores in 1982 and 1983 - well above 400% over the individual coin values
    (4) another item which is well over 300% to 400% over the coin value but I will disclose real soon.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500
    Thats awful nice, but I would have a difficult time pulling the trigger at a couple grand (but I passed on 2 rolls of pennies from the mint at $7)
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oreville, those items you list sort of support my view. I was hoping someone could come up with an example where a 50-100X ratio exists somewhere else in modern day US coins. That would be similar to putting a common coin worth $10-$30 coin into a black slab and increasing its value to $1500+. A premium of 2X to 4X falls within reason depending on what you have. Even monster toned commems and Morgans fall into that range...but they get that value for eye appeal and not for the old, scratched, scuffed, and faded plastic surrounding them.

    I could see a 100X premium for say the Civil War double eagle that saved the life of the ironclad gun ship Captain when it deflected a bullet.....as long as the entire gun ship came with the coin.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Oreville, those items you list sort of support my view. I was hoping someone could come up with an example where a 50-100X ratio exists somewhere else in modern day US coins. That would be similar to putting a common coin worth $10-$30 coin into a black slab and increasing its value to $1500+. A premium of 2X to 4X falls within reason depending on what you have. Even monster toned commems and Morgans fall into that range...but they get that value for eye appeal and not for the old, scratched, scuffed, and faded plastic surrounding them.

    I could see a 100X premium for say the Civil War double eagle that saved the life of the ironclad gun ship Captain when it deflected a bullet.....as long as the entire gun ship came with the coin.

    roadrunner >>



    And if that Double Eagle was in an NGC Black slab... image

    Actually, I cannot think of any coin where with general packaging (as opposed to a one-off, special, unique presentation case, etc.) there is a 50-100x premium. Then again, one does come to mind, namely the Danny Kaye coins in PCGS Regency holders. I think those are $25-50 [I am not sure of their value] coins in slabs that usually sell for $300-400 each. Even with more valuable coins, the holders tend to start at $300-400.

    Perhaps a more accurate way of describing the circumstance is that those who collect "rare" slabs are not buying the coin, but the holder. Whether or not somebody chooses to place a value of, say $1500, on a holder and make the purchase is a different market that another who places the value on the coin alone. In other words...they collect plastic holders and not coins. Heck...people collect barbed wire! To each his or her own.

    Your point about toned Morgans is a great example. The caveat being that the market for them can change to where wild toning is no longer in favor and the coin's value falls as nobody wants to collect tarnished coins when bright white ones are so pretty. Been there...dipped those.

    Lane
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • DRUNNERDRUNNER Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just became the new custodian of the NGC Black 1922 Peace Dollar (MS63). See the astrorat thread on "NGC Black" and you'll actually see it.

    Wow. . . never thought plastic could sell for so much, but like astrorat said in his thread, I'm not about to embarrass myself by disclosing the price. But, I am very happy. As of Mid-August, 13 known in total in NGC Black.

    I am primarily a PCGS Doily collector, but the lure of owning an NGC Black was just too strong. These are elements of history, in a hobby that has grown stronger every generation, unlike almost any other collectible except rare art. I couldn't pass up the chance to own a piece of history.

    Also have a few Doilies on the way . . . if you have any, report them to billet7's Census!

    Drunner
  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Buy the slab, not the coin >>

    It's a R7 slab! Rarer than the coin! >>



    Not quite that rare but I would estimate there are fewer than 200 surviving and they are in very strong hands. >>



    How about NGC 2.1? The all white one with the logo applied INSIDE the slab? Weren't those used for an even shorter time?


    -Paul
  • DRUNNERDRUNNER Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Realone has a particularly good point.

    But . . . my desire to own one (or more) of these is from a historical and rarity standpoint. When I hold a slab like that in my hand I see a time in the hobby when a couple fledgling companies struck out on a new direction to try to wrest control of those who were overgrading, misrepresenting, and in other ways, destroying the hobby. The fact that only 13 examples of this slab continue to be known further clarifies my point . . . they are a rare window into a timeframe when this hobby was undergoing (perhaps) the greatest turmoil it has ever seen. The reason I post it here and continue the discussion is this is the guts of where we came from . . . the Regencies, Doiles, and yes, NGC Blacks are the root of the actual Board we now post on, regardless of the coin within.

    I do collect the coin. I have many Registries, and continue to look at the coin as opposed to the holder, but regardless of that, I also enjoy the history, rarity, and cachet of the very beginnings of our hobby, when a bizarre idea to encase a coin in plastic took hold, and changed the landscape of what we did as collectors forever.

    Drunner
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Drunner---Well said!!!image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,771 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> How about NGC 2.1? The all white one with the logo applied INSIDE the slab? Weren't those used for an even shorter time? -Paul >>



    As I recall from my interview with JA, the black slabs were produced for approximately 2 WEEKS to 20 days.

    The NGC 2.1 slabs (the one with logo applied INSIDE the slab) were produced for 1 WEEK to 10 days but the rate of slabbing was double that of the NGC black slab so the quantity slabbed was about the same as that of the black NGC slab.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i> How about NGC 2.1? The all white one with the logo applied INSIDE the slab? Weren't those used for an even shorter time? -Paul >>



    As I recall from my interview with JA, the black slabs were produced for approximately 2 WEEKS to 20 days.

    The NGC 2.1 slabs (the one with logo applied INSIDE the slab) were produced for 1 WEEK to 10 days but the rate of slabbing was double that of the NGC black slab so the quantity slabbed was about the same as that of the black NGC slab. >>





    Wow. That's crazy. I didn't realize it was THAT short of a time....I bet ya less survived though because there's simply not as much novelty with the white slab...



    -Paul
  • ChrisRxChrisRx Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭✭
    You will need to slab the slab.
    image
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,771 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> Wow. That's crazy. I didn't realize it was THAT short of a time....I bet ya less survived though because there's simply not as much novelty with the white slab... >>



    That is probably true as I have personally seen more black NGC slabs than the NGC 2.1 all white slabs.

    However, the NGC 2.1 slab does not have the distinctive look as the NGC black slab or the PCGS Regency or doily slabs so it is not as much in demand.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    pics please of the NGC 2.1 slab as I have seen several all white NGC fatty slabs at the local coin store and want to know if its the rare white slab.
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  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The few NGC black slabs I've seen have carried a double whammy when it came to price. You have to pay a premium for the slab because it is a collectors' item in its own right, and quite often the coin in the slab was conservatively or under graded. The under grading part partially explains for the black slab rarity along with the fact that NGC used this format for a very short time.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?


  • << <i>pics please of the NGC 2.1 slab as I have seen several all white NGC fatty slabs at the local coin store and want to know if its the rare white slab. >>



    Here ya go:
    NGC Slab Varities

    http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2248404&page=1#Post2248404
  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,579 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ill tall ya, I would LOVE to get all 45 of my gold dollars into matching slabs like that!

    ....and no doubt, black slabs WILL come back.
  • GreeniejrGreeniejr Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭
    White Saint we just bought in image
    image
  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭
    Thant doesn't look like a 2.1 to me. The logo is on the INSIDE on the 2.1, not the outside like that one. Here's one of my 2.1's. Notice there's no shadow underneath the logo.


    image

    image



    -Paul
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,771 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Coinkid855 is correct.

    The 1924 $20 in MS-64 is the much more common (but still reasonably scarce) newer NGC all white holder. You can see the shadow as the gold foil is on the outside of the outer shell.


    image
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭
    That one was used after the one with the logo inside the slab (2.1), but is labeled 2.0 because 2.1 wasn't known until after the numbering system was put in place, apparently.



    -Paul
  • I wonder why they switched to white? I think a matte black background would show off the coin a lot better. One of the first things that drew me to PCGS over NGC was the aesthetics of the holder itself. I know, not a particularly brilliant reason to prefer one certifier over another, but good looks did make for a good first date before we got serious.
    Improperly Cleaned, Our passion for numismatics is Genuine! Now featuring correct spelling.
  • 123cents123cents Posts: 7,178 ✭✭✭
    Here's another fairly early NGC slab.

    image
    image
    image
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,771 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> wonder why they switched to white? I think a matte black background would show off the coin a lot better. One of the first things that drew me to PCGS over NGC was the aesthetics of the holder itself. I know, not a particularly brilliant reason to prefer one certifier over another, but good looks did make for a good first date before we got serious. >>



    Dealers and collectors complained that the slab was too dark which made presenting toned coins as well as red-brown and brown copper coins difficult to examine and look at in general. The contrast was very poor for such coins.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,771 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> So when was this NGC holder used? >>



    The NGC 2 (newer all white slab) was probably made between ABOUT November 15, 1987 and January 5, 1988, plus or minus.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • HussuloHussulo Posts: 2,953 ✭✭✭
    White Saint we just bought in

    That Saint looks great in that slab. The gold NGC writing and basic looking black text really compliments the gold coin.

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1) GSA silver dollars in the unopened sealed white boxes? They go for about 300% over the probable coin value.
    (2) Many obw rolls in tougher dates/mm - some over 100%
    (3) 1982 and 1983 souvenir mint like sets sold at the US mint stores in 1982 and 1983 - well above 400% over the individual coin values
    (4) another item which is well over 300% to 400% over the coin value but I will disclose real soon.


    Oreville, with the continued downturn in the coin market over the past year do all of these items still carry the same premium, or higher?

    roadrunner


    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • DRUNNERDRUNNER Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just was able to pick up a Merc 2.1 off of the 'Bay, but someone beat me to the Frankie in the 2.0 as I held off on that one until today.

    Oh . . . . .the evils of plastic!

    Drunner

    (edited for spelling . . an English teacher just can't stand it---apologies to Laura)
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,771 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>1) GSA silver dollars in the unopened sealed white boxes? They go for about 300% over the probable coin value.
    (2) Many obw rolls in tougher dates/mm - some over 100%
    (3) 1982 and 1983 souvenir mint like sets sold at the US mint stores in 1982 and 1983 - well above 400% over the individual coin values
    (4) another item which is well over 300% to 400% over the coin value but I will disclose real soon.
    Oreville, with the continued downturn in the coin market over the past year do all of these items still carry the same premium, or higher? roadrunner >>



    They have been pretty stable. Of course, some of the less expensive silver obw rolls have seen some modest declines in premiums as the silver bullion prices approach the 2008 springtime inter-decade highs.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • morgansforevermorgansforever Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I too collect these early slabs, to each his own.
    $23 on Ebid, I was the only bidder.
    image
    World coins FSHO Hundreds of successful BST transactions U.S. coins FSHO
  • DRUNNERDRUNNER Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is a super looking Walker in the 2.1 NGC!

    I'd like to run into those too, but the Doily fetish is consuming me. Years of collecting acumen pissed away on plastic!

    Drunner
  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭


    << <i>That is a super looking Walker in the 2.1 NGC!

    I'd like to run into those too, but the Doily fetish is consuming me. Years of collecting acumen pissed away on plastic!

    Drunner >>



    That's not a 2.1. It's a 2. Notice the shadow underneath the gold label because the label is applied to the OUTSIDE of the slab.



    -Paul

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