<< <i>What do you think should happen then? Who's responsible for taking the loss?
Good question. At first blush, a coin removed from a holder is not returnable. But if there are images that prove it's the same coin, then the authenticity guaranty should kick in after all. But by removing the coin, the seller no longer has recourse against the TPG.
Hmmmm. >>
Once a coin is removed from a slab, it should not be returnable. Period. Are you listening, dorkkarl?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
perhaps the cracked up pieces of the holder and label should also be sent into PCGS for inspection???
hmmmm forgot about the cracked out issue.... hmmmm .... that's definitely going to cause problems with the return as you cracked it before sending it into pcgs.
<< <i>Good question. At first blush, a coin removed from a holder is not returnable. But if there are images that prove it's the same coin, then the authenticity guaranty should kick in after all. But by removing the coin, the seller no longer has recourse against the TPG.
Hmmmm. >>
That's just what I was getting at.
You hear it all the time... "Only buy trade dollars in slabs because there are so many counterfeits out there." When you sell a slabbed coin, the TPG guarantee is an included part of the sale (and indeed, is one of the TPSs big selling points for using their service in the first place). If your buyer cracks the coin out and then wants to return it without the TPG guarantee intact, he is trying to return something materially different than what was sold to him.
<< <i>Good question. At first blush, a coin removed from a holder is not returnable. But if there are images that prove it's the same coin, then the authenticity guaranty should kick in after all. But by removing the coin, the seller no longer has recourse against the TPG.
Hmmmm. >>
That's just what I was getting at.
You hear it all the time... "Only buy trade dollars in slabs because there are so many counterfeits out there." When you sell a slabbed coin, the TPG guarantee is an included part of the sale (and indeed, is one of the TPSs big selling points for using their service in the first place). If your buyer cracks the coin out and then wants to return it without the TPG guarantee intact, he is trying to return something materially different than what was sold to him. >>
true true
however, perhaps the slab was fake, too??
could sending in the pieces for inspection be a plus?
Still, the previous seller could give you flack for sending in "a" coin and "a holder in pieces" to PCGS.
All return policies are based on building a customer relationships. A sellers willingness to take a return is often based on the "value of the buyer vs the value of the item vs the value of their reputation".
A seller with a solid gold reputation(like a Julian) would take a coin back under just about any circumstances form a long time customer if it was proven to be a fake, Esp if it was a low value item like a cir 77 trade. The further you get away for those criteria the less likely you are of a return.
Also the weak denticles on the Rev are fine. I would buy that coin no problems off of Ebay raw if I wanted it. You can never know 100% out of hand but that would be the best TD fake to date, better than the 73cc chops or the 76cc DDR that fooled everybody. It is a museum quality electrotype which would cost more than the coin is worth to make and the Chinese have yet to show any fakes other than die struck and cast copies. Everybody is running scared in here.
As I've said here on a number of occasions, when I was in Vietnam, I bought a fake TD which fooled most dealers. The only thing which gave it away was that it didn't "ring true" when dropped on a table. I wouldn't buy one of these from anyone other than a dealer I knew who had a stellar reputation and said coin was in a first tier TPG slab, as it's an insurance policy.
When you're going outside and there's a chance it may snow, you dress accordingly.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>As I've said here on a number of occasions, when I was in Vietnam, I bought a fake TD which fooled most dealers. The only thing which gave it away was that it didn't "ring true" when dropped on a table. >>
still have it? can you record the fake's ring and post a link?
I have always believed that a counterfeit coin is the one item that was always returnable. Just because you crack it out of a legitimate PCGS slab, does not void the warranty on it being genuine.
But you do have an argument for not cracking it out of the slab.
I "cracked" a known good Trade Dollar. Later, I showed it to the ANACS screener at a show (this was just a few years ago. He was looking at it with his 10x or 20x microscope. He said it looked OK, but that there were so many good fake Trade Dollars that weight was critical and that it had to be submitted to be sure.
Wasn't this coin the subject of another thread? I said it was real on that thread and I still say it's real. TDN may not buy raw Trade Dollars off ebay but I sure will and have yet to get stung with a fake. I've had all three of my raw purchases graded by PCGS. The problem with ebay is that you have lousy pics. Plain and simple. If you can see the ebay coin it's not too hard to determine real or fake. bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
<< <i>Just because you crack it out of a legitimate PCGS slab, does not void the warranty on it being genuine. >>
But the seller sold you a coin with a PCGS warranty of authenticity and you voided it by cracking the coin out of the holder. Do you not bear any responsibility here?
Comparing the labels on the subject slab (viewable on the other thread Here there are identical small spots on the label, so it appears the inserts are one and the same. So, is it a slab with the original coin removed and another inserted, or a fake slab with the retained insert put into it along with another coin?
still have it? can you record the fake's ring and post a link?
No, I sold it to a guy who was buying well-made counterfeits of type coins eleven years ago. Besides, I don't have the capability to digitally record something in digital format & put it on the computer. What was scary was if the metallic content was right on that TD (not enough silver in that one), it would have fooled everyone.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I took this coin to a guy today whose coin knowledge is unquestionable, Jerry Brown of Browns Coins in Oklahoma City. His father whose name I cannot remember wrote a famous grading book. Anyways, Jerry said it was real, and to me that is as good as PCGS.
<< <i>This cert number was sold previously by Heritage as lot 13324 on 12/11/07 and the coin in the Heritage archives does not appear to match this coin. Therefore, this piece might be a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit holder. >>
The thing is. . .yes, the cert numbers are the same. But the entire certification tag is identical. By that i mean, the font is right on. Also check out the faded spot above the second "s" in "Series:". Check out the faded grey spot above the first digit in the seven digit cert number. Even the squiggly faded grey lines at the very far right side of the cert tag are present on the OP coin and the Heritage coin. All PCGS generation holders of the type do not bear these same faded grey dates on the cert tag as the example in the Conder PCGS generation topic does not bear these faded grey spots. Here is the example from the Conder topic:
All this being said, these are two undeniably different coins. i do not know what has happened in this situation, if both are real or if one is bogus. i did think the faded grey spots being the exact same on both inserts was worth pointing out.
A lie told often enough becomes the truth. ~Vladimir Lenin
Yes, but it is the same insert. There are some random small gray dots on the paper, and the right hand edge has faint but distinctive marks as well. I wasn't aware that PCGS would reuse the actual insert itself.
I also think that this points to another problem in collecting today. PCGS and the likes are a 3rd party opinion, and should be considered after your own. I rank them just ahead of most dealers and we all know not to trust everything out of their mouths. People were so worried about what was on HA.com, the state of the slab or the cert number that they forgot to look at the coin. If they had they would have seen it was a known die pair with a decent patina which is pretty hard to fake.
<< <i>Wasn't this coin the subject of another thread? I said it was real on that thread and I still say it's real. TDN may not buy raw Trade Dollars off ebay but I sure will and have yet to get stung with a fake. I've had all three of my raw purchases graded by PCGS. The problem with ebay is that you have lousy pics. Plain and simple. If you can see the ebay coin it's not too hard to determine real or fake. bob >>
I am with him. If you know your stuff the fakes are not that good. The problem is when people think they know or put all there faith in other people or plastic
Comments
<< <i>What do you think should happen then? Who's responsible for taking the loss?
Good question. At first blush, a coin removed from a holder is not returnable. But if there are images that prove it's the same coin, then the authenticity guaranty should kick in after all. But by removing the coin, the seller no longer has recourse against the TPG.
Hmmmm. >>
Once a coin is removed from a slab, it should not be returnable. Period. Are you listening, dorkkarl?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
hmmmm forgot about the cracked out issue.... hmmmm .... that's definitely going to cause problems with the return as you cracked it before sending it into pcgs.
<< <i>Good question. At first blush, a coin removed from a holder is not returnable. But if there are images that prove it's the same coin, then the authenticity guaranty should kick in after all. But by removing the coin, the seller no longer has recourse against the TPG.
Hmmmm. >>
That's just what I was getting at.
You hear it all the time... "Only buy trade dollars in slabs because there are so many counterfeits out there." When you sell a slabbed coin, the TPG guarantee is an included part of the sale (and indeed, is one of the TPSs big selling points for using their service in the first place). If your buyer cracks the coin out and then wants to return it without the TPG guarantee intact, he is trying to return something materially different than what was sold to him.
<< <i>
<< <i>Good question. At first blush, a coin removed from a holder is not returnable. But if there are images that prove it's the same coin, then the authenticity guaranty should kick in after all. But by removing the coin, the seller no longer has recourse against the TPG.
Hmmmm. >>
That's just what I was getting at.
You hear it all the time... "Only buy trade dollars in slabs because there are so many counterfeits out there." When you sell a slabbed coin, the TPG guarantee is an included part of the sale (and indeed, is one of the TPSs big selling points for using their service in the first place). If your buyer cracks the coin out and then wants to return it without the TPG guarantee intact, he is trying to return something materially different than what was sold to him. >>
true true
however, perhaps the slab was fake, too??
could sending in the pieces for inspection be a plus?
Still, the previous seller could give you flack for sending in "a" coin and "a holder in pieces" to PCGS.
patience, FEC... patience.
was the slab cert or picture shown somewhere?
the Heritage coin with cert 5508063 is a different coin
your coin looks fake to me - weakness in the leaves and webbed foot
die-struck copies made from real coins have been around awhile
good ones in good fake slabs will become a major problem in this industry
Lol - good point! If the slab was fake and there's an image that proves it, then nothing has materially changed by cracking it out.
My head hurts.
<< <i>My head hurts.
This whole issue does take the fun out of collecting, doesn't it?
A seller with a solid gold reputation(like a Julian) would take a coin back under just about any circumstances form a long time customer if it was proven to be a fake, Esp if it was a low value item like a cir 77 trade. The further you get away for those criteria the less likely you are of a return.
Also the weak denticles on the Rev are fine. I would buy that coin no problems off of Ebay raw if I wanted it. You can never know 100% out of hand but that would be the best TD fake to date, better than the 73cc chops or the 76cc DDR that fooled everybody. It is a museum quality electrotype which would cost more than the coin is worth to make and the Chinese have yet to show any fakes other than die struck and cast copies. Everybody is running scared in here.
When you're going outside and there's a chance it may snow, you dress accordingly.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>where's the picture of the coin in the slab before crack-out? >>
or just the label, if you have that left.
<< <i>As I've said here on a number of occasions, when I was in Vietnam, I bought a fake TD which fooled most dealers. The only thing which gave it away was that it didn't "ring true" when dropped on a table. >>
still have it? can you record the fake's ring and post a link?
But you do have an argument for not cracking it out of the slab.
Interesting....
Later, I showed it to the ANACS screener at a show (this was just a few years ago.
He was looking at it with his 10x or 20x microscope.
He said it looked OK, but that there were so many good fake Trade Dollars that weight was critical and that it had to be submitted to be sure.
I said it was real on that thread and I still say it's real.
TDN may not buy raw Trade Dollars off ebay but I sure
will and have yet to get stung with a fake. I've had all
three of my raw purchases graded by PCGS.
The problem with ebay is that you have lousy pics. Plain and
simple. If you can see the ebay coin it's not too hard to determine
real or fake.
bob
<< <i>Just because you crack it out of a legitimate PCGS slab, does not void the warranty on it being genuine. >>
But the seller sold you a coin with a PCGS warranty of authenticity and you voided it by cracking the coin out of the holder. Do you not bear any responsibility here?
No, I sold it to a guy who was buying well-made counterfeits of type coins eleven years ago. Besides, I don't have the capability to digitally record something in digital format & put it on the computer. What was scary was if the metallic content was right on that TD (not enough silver in that one), it would have fooled everyone.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>This cert number was sold previously by Heritage as lot 13324 on 12/11/07 and the coin in the Heritage archives does not appear to match this coin. Therefore, this piece might be a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit holder. >>
The thing is. . .yes, the cert numbers are the same. But the entire certification tag is identical. By that i mean, the font is right on. Also check out the faded spot above the second "s" in "Series:". Check out the faded grey spot above the first digit in the seven digit cert number. Even the squiggly faded grey lines at the very far right side of the cert tag are present on the OP coin and the Heritage coin. All PCGS generation holders of the type do not bear these same faded grey dates on the cert tag as the example in the Conder PCGS generation topic does not bear these faded grey spots. Here is the example from the Conder topic:
All this being said, these are two undeniably different coins. i do not know what has happened in this situation, if both are real or if one is bogus. i did think the faded grey spots being the exact same on both inserts was worth pointing out.
BTW, There was a thread not too long ago where one single cert number was used on two different slabs. So, that is not an impossibility.
<< <i>Wasn't this coin the subject of another thread?
I said it was real on that thread and I still say it's real.
TDN may not buy raw Trade Dollars off ebay but I sure
will and have yet to get stung with a fake. I've had all
three of my raw purchases graded by PCGS.
The problem with ebay is that you have lousy pics. Plain and
simple. If you can see the ebay coin it's not too hard to determine
real or fake.
bob >>
I am with him. If you know your stuff the fakes are not that good. The problem is when people think they know or put all there faith in other people or plastic