Is this trade dollar real?

FEC · June 21, 2009 12:51PM

I have this along with several other coins listed for sale on the BST. Another member emailed me and said that the T$1 is fake. I bought this on ebay in a PCGS slab in January, so I am very surprised if it is.

IT weighs: 27.1 Grams

Opinions?

SeattleSlammer · June 21, 2009 1:03PM

It sure looks okay to me.....should be 27.2 grams...but your weight I'd say is acceptable due to wear.
What was the other member seeing that he disliked?

FEC · June 21, 2009 1:06PM

He said "Overall, it is not right - lettering, design elements, etc. Also, Ms Liberty has a bare breast exposed - certainly not on a genuine coin"

I think its real. The slab looked fine. I dont think there is a "bare boob" showing. But, he was seemed so certain, that I want to make sure.

abitofthisabitofthat · June 21, 2009 1:07PM

Hi - I let FEC know that I thought the trade dollar was fake. It just looks off to me all over, but at a minimum miss Liberty's breast is tooled to be exposed. I started a similar thread (my mixup on communication) with the PCGS holder which also seems off to me.

Chris

MidLifeCrisis · June 21, 2009 1:12PM

I recommend you look here.

Then contact TradeDollarNut for his opinion.

Edit: Oops, wrong link. Fixed now.

78750Aggie · June 21, 2009 1:14PM

Your coin looks good to me. The die crack on the reverse between E & D should assist in authentication.

You should hope 'tradedollarnut' chimes in on this thread. He's helped me before.

FEC · June 21, 2009 1:16PM

Thanks, I PMed Trade Dollar nut. I think the coin is real also. But, the guy who messaged me was so adament that I wanted to investigate. I know these are heavily forged. But, since it came in a slab, and weighs correctly, I think its fine.

FEC · June 21, 2009 1:17PM

kaz · June 21, 2009 1:19PM

The coin itself looks genuine to me... but I wonder if an early coin doctor did some augmentation work that slipped past the graders?

Stupid · June 21, 2009 1:21PM

Dang, thats a huge coin! Is the weight, 27.1 grams, including the slab? Just wondering.

I don't know if the slab weight makes much of a difference.

123cents · June 21, 2009 1:22PM

I think the coin is legit. I just wasn't sure about the holder. Now I see that some coins around 1994-95 had the barcode on the reverse of the holder.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · June 21, 2009 1:27PM

yes

fruitloops · June 21, 2009 1:29PM

Looks geniune to me, then again trade dollars aren't my series. Denticals are formed nicely and even as well

Has the coin been cleaned? There's some halo effects around the stars..but this could be from semi PL surfaces. I'm not sure if this series has that though

FEC · June 21, 2009 1:31PM

<< Dang, thats a huge coin! Is the weight, 27.1 grams, including the slab? Just wondering.

I don't know if the slab weight makes much of a difference. >>

The coin isnt in a slab anymore. I bought it for my 7070 which I am liquidating. But, I kept a photo!

TomB · June 21, 2009 1:34PM

This cert number was sold previously by Heritage as lot 13324 on 12/11/07 and the coin in the Heritage archives does not appear to match this coin. Therefore, this piece might be a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit holder.

Bear · June 21, 2009 1:37PM

The foot showing, looks very funny. Perhaps it has been re engraved

however, I would not touch the coin. Too many questionable areas.

FEC · June 21, 2009 1:37PM

I am going to put this coin into a shipment I have going to PCGS tommorow, just because there are too many weird factors. I am going to find out for certain one way or another. Damn, why do so many people spend so much time faking T1$'s?

kaz · June 21, 2009 1:56PM

That is an awesome huge photo! To the left of star 3 one of the denticles has a pit in it and it is "bridged" to the adjacent denticle. I have only seen that on fakes. I revise my opinion to "very suspicious." From what I can see on the reverse, the eagle's pupil looks like a pinpoint, a big no-no. Throw in the 'bare boob' and add 2 more very's to "very suspicious."

tradedollarnut · June 21, 2009 2:04PM

FEC · June 21, 2009 2:07PM

<< That is an awesome huge photo! To the left of star 3 one of the denticles has a pit in it and it is "bridged" to the adjacent denticle. I have only seen that on fakes. I revise my opinion to "very suspicious." From what I can see on the reverse, the eagle's pupil looks like a pinpoint, a big no-no. Throw in the 'bare boob' and add 2 more very's to "very suspicious." >>

Here is a closeup of the area you are refrring to:

tradedollarnut · June 21, 2009 2:08PM

kaz · June 21, 2009 2:09PM

I think TomB has nailed this one-- see his link to the Heritage auction of the same slab number-- not the same.

FEC · June 21, 2009 2:09PM

Wanna trade?

Come on, stop teasing us. We have been waiting for you to chime in. Is it real or not?

tradedollarnut · June 21, 2009 2:10PM

kaz · June 21, 2009 2:16PM

Really no comparison when you look at the denticle shapes. Also, on the suspect coin the stars appear to be formed of 5 separate "petals" rather than a single unit. TDN, that has to be the biggest TD image I have ever seen.... can I get that on a T-shirt?

FEC · June 21, 2009 2:19PM

<< Really no comparison when you look at the denticle shapes. Also, on the suspect coin the stars appear to be formed of 5 separate "petals" rather than a single unit. TDN, that has to be the biggest TD image I have ever seen.... can I get that on a T-shirt?

>>

Compare stars 4 5 6 of the last one he posted with mine. They are the same. 4 has petal seperation. 5 has a little. 6 has none. Mine is the same.

tradedollarnut · June 21, 2009 2:22PM

The denticles look funny to me... and some of the drapery folds look off .... but I just can't point to any one thing that calls the coin a fake for sure.

MsMorrisine · June 21, 2009 2:25PM

this person has the same problem with an 1877-S

tradedollarnut · June 21, 2009 2:25PM

Oh, my - I just saw the denticles on the lower reverse. I'm gonna have to say the coin is verrrrry suspicious.

MsMorrisine · June 21, 2009 2:29PM

how about the "S" in "TRUST" compared with TDN's ??

FEC · June 21, 2009 2:39PM

Just FYI to anyone who buys coins on ebay, it came from "lenshirl3vpv"

ProofArtworkonCircs · June 21, 2009 2:40PM

And how about that little bridge between 1 and 8 that is not on TDN's.

DUIGUY · June 21, 2009 2:56PM

MsMorrisine · June 21, 2009 3:07PM

I'd be interested in hearing the ring of a real one and compared to a known fake.

MsMorrisine · June 21, 2009 3:10PM

<< And how about that little bridge between 1 and 8 that is not on TDN's. >>

Hmmm... I guess your point and my point about the "S" could be explained by the lack of Computer Aided Machining back then...

fruitloops · June 21, 2009 3:23PM

Interesting, there's a spike from the dentical right next to the 6th star in that close up photo. Definitely suspicious

MsMorrisine · June 21, 2009 4:39PM

<< how about the "S" in "TRUST" compared with TDN's ?? >>

the bottom of the "S" falls higher on the U than the 2 from TDN while the top of the "S" seems to be in the right ball park.
{compare with the better photos in the thread.}

abitofthisabitofthat · June 21, 2009 9:22PM

Hi All - thanks to everyone who posted on this coin. A fake that is better than most, I guess. I took another look - trying to find the smoking gun as opposed to everything just seeming a tad off - like the feet or the breast.

One area that I would draw attention to is the area between the eagle's legs. Especially the area and talons around the claw holding the branch. I think that they missed this area.

FEC - best of luck on getting a refund. Keep us posted.

keoj · June 21, 2009 9:27PM

For what its worth...the coin looks real to me. Well worn and possibly retooled but looks okay. I'd have to see the coin in person to assess correctly. If it is a fake, it's a pretty good one. There were many obverse and reverse dies used in 77. There are many varients that have full stars and almost no stars so doing a star disgnostics comparison is pretty tough and can be misleading. I own a couple of 77's and they all are different (a full stars, a DDO and another minor DDO).

keoj

kaz · June 21, 2009 10:16PM

Thanks keoj, the stars may be a weak leg to stand on. I would like to see more of a closeup of the eagle's eye- on the reverse image it looks like a pinpoint, and that is an element that forgers hardly ever get right. I don't know if fec has an enlargement of the reverse, but if he does perhaps he could post it?

Does anyone have a comment wrt TomB's finding the same slab with a different-looking coin in the Heritage archives?

Unknown · June 21, 2009 10:22PM

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crypto79 · June 21, 2009 11:00PM

I would say yes. Nothing even hints at fake to me. Looks like every vf-xf weekly struck 77 I have seen. I guess it could be a perfect electrotype off of a real vf77 but why would they?

greghansen · June 21, 2009 11:27PM

Fascinating. The reverse shows die cracks below TRADE and the first few letters of DOLLAR. The crack also runs along the rim to the left of TRADE up towards the U of UNITED. This series of cracks is known to exist on a genuine 1877 reverse die. The other coin with same slab number sold by Heritage in Dec. 2007, does not display these die cracks and was obviously not made from the same reverse die. I would love to know the acquisition history of the present coin.

BillJones · June 21, 2009 11:50PM

I vote counterfeit, but it’s a darn good counterfeit. Ms. Liberty’s foot and the dentiles on the reverse do it for me. I also don’t care for the lettering for “In God we trust.” It’s looks a bit crude.

vplite · June 21, 2009 11:53PM

Pardon my ignorance, but I have to wonder with virtually every TD under a cloud, who does anyone bother to collect them? Even an expert collector will sell into a market still under a cloud.

Our friends in China are making our hobby more and more difficult. I wonder what our "not exactly" friends in N Korea have planned for us.

jesbroken · June 22, 2009 12:16AM

It would be simple enough to send to PCGS for a reholder due to the previous Heritage anomaly-they would then either certify it as legit and the other coin as a fake or deny it as a counterfeit holder/coin. Then you would have more ammunition to go to your ebay seller with. Personally, if the ebay seller is willing to refund, that is the route I would take, as the coin does appear to, at the least, have some retooling. JMO
Jim

BillJones · June 22, 2009 12:18AM

<< Pardon my ignorance, but I have to wonder with virtually every TD under a cloud, who does anyone bother to collect them? Even an expert collector will sell into a market still under a cloud.

Our friends in China are making our hobby more and more difficult. I wonder what our "not exactly" friends in N Korea have planned for us. >>

You are right. Counterfeiting is a problem. The trouble with Trade Dollars is that they have counterfeiting these coins since the time the U.S. mint system was making them. There are lots of old and new fakes on the market.

And yes the Chinese counterfeiters are a pain the butt, and I totally support a TOTAL boycott of ALL of their counterfeit coins. Across the street someone posted pictures of a off-center “4 leaf clover set” of 1909-S-VDB cents. The San Francisco mint never made a set of errors like that. This is a total concoction of the Chinese. A few collectors thought it would be “cool” to own something like this.

I posted, "PLEASE! Don't feed the animals!" That message seems to have fallen on deaf ears because more lemmings are posting messages that they would like to own one of these damned sets.

MsMorrisine · June 22, 2009 12:22AM

I'm a total n00b and collect "modern crap" so anything I say is "with a huge, huge, huge grain of salt," FEC. ok?

even TDN is stopping at "verrrrrry suspicious."

patience.

When you get a determination, keep us posted. O! The Intrigue! (O! The Joy! reference/joke)

IF it comes back "questionable authenticity" ... maybe the seller didn't know... tell the seller you wanted it re-graded, tell them you posted a picture here and got some doubt, supply the Heritage info and PCGS' new info and see if you can get a refund.
{perhaps the seller was fooled, too. and not everyone has access to Heritage.}

As for why anyone would collect T$1 with them under a cloud... well.... the more I see them the more I like them... especially the chop marked ones as my wife is "Made In Taiwan." (another joke) although it seems one definitely needs to know something about them before starting. But, when they are under a cloud is a great time to collect them if you know what you are doing.

{Her father left mainland China during the revolution. None of his family knew where he was. when he died her mother went back to find them and tell them. Many on the Taiwanese Mother's side have business ventures in Mainland China, as well.}

tradedollarnut · June 22, 2009 12:45AM

If you buy certified coins from reputable dealers, then you have nothing to worry about. If it's found to be a fake later, they will stand behind it and refund your money.

If you buy raw coins off ebay - or even from your local B&M, you're playing with fire.

mrpotatoheadd · June 22, 2009 12:49AM

<< It would be simple enough to send to PCGS for a reholder due to the previous Heritage anomaly-they would then either certify it as legit and the other coin as a fake or deny it as a counterfeit holder/coin. >>

The OP already stated that the coin was cracked out.

This presents an interesting situation. Suppose you have a slabbed coin which you suspect might be counterfeit. You can send it back for review, and if it's determined to actually be a counterfeit, the TPG would then compensate you under their guarantee of authenticity. Pretty straightforward.

However, suppose instead, that you sell the coin to another person without suspecting that there's anything wrong with it. Your buyer cracks it out and puts it in his type set album. When he goes to sell it some time later, it's determined to be counterfeit. He contacts you wanting a refund, as you were the seller of the coin. But by destroying the slab, he has materially changed the item you originally sold him, and in so doing, voided the TPG guarantee of authenticity which was origianlly included in the sale.

What do you think should happen then? Who's responsible for taking the loss?

tradedollarnut · June 22, 2009 12:53AM

What do you think should happen then? Who's responsible for taking the loss?

Good question. At first blush, a coin removed from a holder is not returnable. But if there are images that prove it's the same coin, then the authenticity guaranty should kick in after all. But by removing the coin, the seller no longer has recourse against the TPG.

Hmmmm.

Is this trade dollar real?

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