Looks like the guy who sold me the big collection pulled the switcheroo on me.........
RonBurgundy
Posts: 5,491 ✭✭✭
Part of the collection I bought was a complete 1954 Bowman set. When I was looking through it at the guy's house, I noticed the Mantle and pulled it out. It was a nicely centered, EX-MT to EX-MT + card with a small wax stain on the back. He made it a point to ask me how I thought the Mantle was in that set, and I said it was nice.
A little while later, I left the room the cards were in to take a call from my wife. When I returned, we completed the deal and I came home with the cards. Upon inspection, I noticed the Mantle wasn't the same one I looked at - it magically morphed into a centered VG-Ex card with soft corners. The wax stain on the back had disappeared.
No doubt the guy pulled the switcheroo on me. Shame on me for not looking carefully through the whole group one last time before I left, but good grief is there trust left to extend in this world?
I'm wondering whether I should say anything to him. I still owe him one-half of the agreed upon price, and part of me is tempted to short pay him and tell him to pound sand. But Burgundy's angelic half says to let bygones be bygones and be a little more careful next time.
It is really sad the greed and dishonesty that pervades this hobby.
A little while later, I left the room the cards were in to take a call from my wife. When I returned, we completed the deal and I came home with the cards. Upon inspection, I noticed the Mantle wasn't the same one I looked at - it magically morphed into a centered VG-Ex card with soft corners. The wax stain on the back had disappeared.
No doubt the guy pulled the switcheroo on me. Shame on me for not looking carefully through the whole group one last time before I left, but good grief is there trust left to extend in this world?
I'm wondering whether I should say anything to him. I still owe him one-half of the agreed upon price, and part of me is tempted to short pay him and tell him to pound sand. But Burgundy's angelic half says to let bygones be bygones and be a little more careful next time.
It is really sad the greed and dishonesty that pervades this hobby.
Ron Burgundy
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
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the entire deal. Seriously, who does he think you are? If you let him get away with
this, he'll think it's OK to scam the next guy. I would DEFINITELY bring it up, and don't
back down if he denies it (give him a chance to save face and admit it). Since you're
asking for opinions, were I in your shoes I'd cancel the entire deal. Plenty of '54 Bowman
sets out there.....
<< <i>I think you need to say something - if he made took the time to mention the Mantle and ask your opinion, you need to call him on the fact that it isn't the same one. >>
I agree, say something... he'll say it's the same card... but if you can describe the card in detail (with the stain), don't back down from his lie. Withhold $$ if he doesn't give up the original Mantle. It sucks to do business like that, but you have to confront him.
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Nothing new under the sun.
About 1975 +/-, the following went down in one of my stores.
I was out and a fairly experienced associate was working.
Two guys came in and wanted to sell a bag of loose stones.
My worker weighed them up, measured them, louped them and made an offer.
He then placed the stones back in the bag and placed the bag on the counter.
!st guy: "That's a good offer, we'll take it."
2nd guy: "BS that's not enough," and he grabbed the bag from the counter and put it in his coat pocket.
1st guy: "Come on man, gimme 'em we gots to sell 'em today."
2ng guy: Grumbles and says, "Alright but he's rippin us off," and he takes the bag from his coat pocket and places it back on the counter.
The worker counted out $4K in cash, gave the money to the seller, and placed the bag in the box under the counter.
The sellers left the store.
The worker got the bag out of the box, opened it, and found about $100 worth of CZs.
The 2nd guy had swithced the pouches.
When I returned, my associate was freaked. He told me the story of the $30K that he
bought for $4K that turned into $100.
In my biznez, it is customary that the ONLY way an employee can prove he did not
steal "lost money," is to pay it back. The worker repaid the money.
That man worked with me for 25 more years and NEVER made another mistake.
.......
The way I was trained, there was never a time that such a scam would have worked
on me, but sundry variations of it are being practiced everyday in every inner-city in
America.
RULE 17:
Never allow a seller to touch the merch after you have made an offer.
If a seller touches the merch after you have made an offer, you must
fully examine the merch again and secure it before payment is made.
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When buying collections - stamps/cards/coins - the buyer should segregate
the "money items" from the bulk of the collection.
The segregated pile should be examined again, just b4 payment is made.
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MANY people are thieving scumbuckets and they WILL steal from you, IF you allow it.
Such is life.
I'd be so pissed, he'd have to pay $$$ for that dirty trick.
<< <i>Who's to say there aren't other cards that he switched out and you just haven't noticed yet. All credibility was thrown out the window when he did that. >>
agreed.
I would have been at his doorstep within minutes of discovering what a scumbag he was.
<< <i>Unfortunately if he's a true scumbag, he'll turn it around on you and say "How do I know YOU didn't switch the card". You may be screwed. >>
Two can play that game, if this guy does that then tell him he wont get another penny out of you and thats the end of it. Ron owing him more money for this deal has the upper hand IMO.
I agree with Perkdog. Go to his house TODAY with THE MICK in hand, show it to him without saying a word and see his reaction. If he does not fess up, call him out on it. If he insists on not giving you the original one then MAKE NO MORE PAYMENTS. You will be doing NOTHING WRONG!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>Unfortunately if he's a true scumbag, he'll turn it around on you and say "How do I know YOU didn't switch the card". You may be screwed. >>
This is true!!
That stinks!
I'd confront the guy, (based on you being 100% certain of the switcheroo, which I believe you are), to give him a chance to redeem himself.
Hopefully, yet doubtfully, the guy made a mistake.
If not, this guy must have some big cajones, to pull something like this, in his own home.
I'd be knocking on his door with merchandise in hand. If he's uncooperative, I'd take his ass to court just for the sake of giving him something to think about. (You probably won't win of course ... but who knows, maybe he's done this before and has a previous!)
I hope everything works out for you. Good luck!
PoppaJ
Actually, I think he did switch two other cards but I'm not 100% certain of those two. The '54 Mantle I have no doubt about. The guy is big into Mantle, which is why I didn't get the 53 Bowman Color Mantle with the rest of the set I bought. He wouldn't part with it. So he figured he'd keep the nicer '54 too.
The hard part is the guy has some more good stuff that I think he'll eventually sell soon but principle is telling me to forget all of that and confront the bastage.
And also, I think Storm is right. I think a detailed inspection is necessary if the seller rehandles the merch...........that doesn't justify what he did but it does need to be done.
In a twist of irony that only the board could appreciate, the dude's name is Gary.
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Am I understanding Stevek?
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>Who's to say there aren't other cards that he switched out and you just haven't noticed yet. All credibility was thrown out the window when he did that. >>
agreed.
I would have been at his doorstep within minutes of discovering what a scumbag he was. >>
I agree with all the above.
That's pretty pathetic.
Pull your own switcheroo and pay the balance in Monopoly $.
<< <i>I'd say something and deduct the amount that I felt was in order.
Am I understanding Stevek?
Steve >>
When it comes to business, I don't believe in "playing games" - What, the seller thought Ron was going to miss the difference in the key card in the set? Ron knows the seller switched the card, and the seller knows Ron knows he switched the card - What's the point of arguing about it and wasting time?...just contact the seller and say something like "Upon closer inspection of the cards I'm changing my offer, and here is the new offer"...the seller can either take it or leave it, and Ron can then pay him the final amount that is agreed on, or return the cards for a refund. And next time if Ron wants to deal with this seller again, he can heed Storm's good advice.
Those are fair points. It was an interesting negotiation, to say the least. The guy really didn't want to part with most of the stuff, but his wife wanted the stuff GONE. So I'm not surprised he's trying underhanded stuff to hang on to what he really wanted to keep. One of the items I didn't buy was a "Hall of Fame" binder he had full of vintage HOF'ers, many of which were dupes from the sets he had made. I didn't look at it beyond the first couple pages because he said he wanted to keep it. So I suspect the "new" Mantle I got came from that binder, and he probably switched out other cards he didn't like or were suspect in his opinion.
The good news is this caused me to go through every card again, including all the commons. It's still a nice old collection, this has just left a bad taste in my mouth.
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
That is really low of the guy who did that to you. I think you obviously have to call him on the switch, but I think one option I would entertain is to tell the guy that you want to return the cards to him and get a refund. How mad do you think his wife will be when she finds out: A. Her husband is a cheat; B. The cards that she wanted gone are now coming back; C. The money that you gave him (and is possibly spent by now) has to be returned to you. I think that if you raise those points with the guy, he will be more than willing to work with you if you still want to keep the cards. Never under estimate the power of the wife! We like to "think" we are in charge but in "real life" we all know that our wives are. Good luck to you.
Tom
I used to hate confrontations when I was younger but now I'm more confident I've found that the best approach in a situation like this is to act like Columbo -
I'd politely go back over there or call and say something like "gosh, I'm confused and I need your help. When I was fondling your Mantle I could have sworn that it was well centered and with a wax stain on the back. Now the one I've got is off center and the wax stain is gone. Do you have two Mantles and did you put the wrong one in my box by mistake?"
and go from there. You're not accusing him and you're holding your cards close to your shirt by not telling him everything you know.
Ripken, Brooks & Frank Robinson, Old Orioles, Sweet Spot Autos, older Redskins - Riggins, Sonny, Baugh etc and anything that catches my eye.
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Either that or demand your money back. Whatever you feel most comfortable with.
tell him how difficult it is to drive w/ a plastic bag around your head,
seller is slipping left & right anyway,
what a foo'
j
RIP GURU
<< <i>The great part about this situation is that you have all the cards and he only has half the money. You basically caught him trying to steal from you, and now you hold all the cards (both literally and figuratively). Personally, I would tell him something along the lines of: "I know you switched out the Mantle and I'm just wondering what else you switched out. I made my offer based on the cards you showed me and I'm insulted that you would try and steal from me like this. I'm willing to give you $XX and that's it. If not, give me my money back and I'll give you the cards back." Make sure the $XX is extremely advantageous to you.
Either that or demand your money back. Whatever you feel most comfortable with. >>
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That pretty much comports with my feelings.
BUT, I would not be inclined to undo the deal. Having put time
into the transaction, I must be compensated.
I would make it clear that the guy's conduct was not acceptable
and that there had to be some consequence in exchange for my
letting it slide.
A "fair" price reduction is appropriate.
Almost everything you need to know about dealing with FILTH is
covered in a few movies:
.....................................
After the public ceremony, Senator Geary meets with Michael in his office. The Corleone family had obtained control of several casinos in Nevada. However, with respect to one of the casinos, Michael was having trouble obtaining a gambling license from the state authorities. Geary offers to help Michael obtain the license in exchange for an exorbitant bribe ($250,000 up front, and 5% of the gross monthly revenues from all Corleone casinos). Michael asks Geary why he should pay so much money when the license fee is only $20,000.
Geary responds by launching into a vitriolic attack on Michael, the Corleone family, and Italian-Americans in general, calling them "oily-haired" and "dirty." He says that he despises Michael and all he stands for and that he "intend[s] to squeeze" the Corleone family for all he can get. He also demonstrates that he is capable of pronouncing the "Corleone" name reasonably well in the Italian manner, even adding a trill to the R ([kor li 'o ne]), in contrast with his previous public performance. He gives Michael a day to respond to his offer.
As Geary heads for the door, Michael offers his response: Geary will obtain the gambling license for the Corleones for free, with no bribe. Indeed, Michael expects Geary to pay the $20,000 licensing fee out of his own pocket. Geary laughs and leaves, referring to Michael as "Mr. Core-lee-OWN-ee."
Some time later, Geary spends the night with a prostitute in a brothel run by Fredo, Michael's brother. Having suffered from an alcoholic blackout, he awakens in a bed covered in blood next to the woman, who is dead. The dead prostitute's wrists are handcuffed; her legs spread wide. Geary has no memory of what happened, and is frantic with horror and worry. Tom Hagen arrives on the scene and tells Geary that since the woman has no family, the matter can be safely covered up. Hagen promises Geary, "All that will be left is our friendship." It is implied that the Corleones have engineered this situation, perhaps through drugging the senator. Michael's capo Al Neri is seen in the bathroom wiping his hands with a towel, indicating that it was he who murdered the prostitute.
Subsequently, it appears that the Corleones' "help" with the incident (in other words, their blackmail of the senator) sways Geary to the family's side. When Michael goes to Havana for a meeting with Hyman Roth and other crime bosses, he also takes the time to associate with several influential figures in government, law, and business. Geary is among this latter group; he greets Michael warmly during a New Year's Eve party held by the Cuban dictator, and later joins them in going to see a live sex show.
Later in the movie, when a U.S. Senate committee is investigating organized crime and subpoenas Michael and others to answer to charges of criminal activity, Geary speaks in defense of Italian-Americans, deploring the stereotyping of them as criminals. However, he also leaves the hearing before Michael testifies.
......................
But seriously, I love storm's idea. Either make the guy XX offer for the rest of the cards, or you can return the cards for your money back plus $XX for the crap that he put you through and wasting your time. If he threatens to call the police/his lawyer, tell him go ahead; he's the one who tried to steal from you in the first place.
Greg M.
References:
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If there are no further opportunity then I would confront him, but why not swing this knowledge to your advantage.
T222's PSA 1 or better
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There always "seems" to be some merit in that kind of thinking.
I have found, though others may find differently, that if somebody
shafts me, or tries to, it is almost impossible to rehab the relationship
to a point that I am much advantaged in subsequent transactions.
My deal-making life has been based on the simple notion that:
"You Cannot Do Good Business With A Bad Man."
<< <i>What's the big deal looks like you shouldve been more careful >>
Another stupid response
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
Or perhaps I can just inform his wife about what he did. She might just give me the rest of his collection.
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
I must have misunderstood your first comment.
I was thinking you were telling Ron not to worry about it.
My mistake.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>The great part about this situation is that you have all the cards and he only has half the money. You basically caught him trying to steal from you, and now you hold all the cards (both literally and figuratively). Personally, I would tell him something along the lines of: "I know you switched out the Mantle and I'm just wondering what else you switched out. I made my offer based on the cards you showed me and I'm insulted that you would try and steal from me like this. I'm willing to give you $XX and that's it. If not, give me my money back and I'll give you the cards back." Make sure the $XX is extremely advantageous to you.
Either that or demand your money back. Whatever you feel most comfortable with. >>
///////////////////////
That pretty much comports with my feelings.
BUT, I would not be inclined to undo the deal. Having put time
into the transaction, I must be compensated.
I would make it clear that the guy's conduct was not acceptable
and that there had to be some consequence in exchange for my
letting it slide.
A "fair" price reduction is appropriate.
Almost everything you need to know about dealing with FILTH is
covered in a few movies:
.....................................
After the public ceremony, Senator Geary meets with Michael in his office. The Corleone family had obtained control of several casinos in Nevada. However, with respect to one of the casinos, Michael was having trouble obtaining a gambling license from the state authorities. Geary offers to help Michael obtain the license in exchange for an exorbitant bribe ($250,000 up front, and 5% of the gross monthly revenues from all Corleone casinos). Michael asks Geary why he should pay so much money when the license fee is only $20,000.
Geary responds by launching into a vitriolic attack on Michael, the Corleone family, and Italian-Americans in general, calling them "oily-haired" and "dirty." He says that he despises Michael and all he stands for and that he "intend[s] to squeeze" the Corleone family for all he can get. He also demonstrates that he is capable of pronouncing the "Corleone" name reasonably well in the Italian manner, even adding a trill to the R ([kor li 'o ne]), in contrast with his previous public performance. He gives Michael a day to respond to his offer.
As Geary heads for the door, Michael offers his response: Geary will obtain the gambling license for the Corleones for free, with no bribe. Indeed, Michael expects Geary to pay the $20,000 licensing fee out of his own pocket. Geary laughs and leaves, referring to Michael as "Mr. Core-lee-OWN-ee."
Some time later, Geary spends the night with a prostitute in a brothel run by Fredo, Michael's brother. Having suffered from an alcoholic blackout, he awakens in a bed covered in blood next to the woman, who is dead. The dead prostitute's wrists are handcuffed; her legs spread wide. Geary has no memory of what happened, and is frantic with horror and worry. Tom Hagen arrives on the scene and tells Geary that since the woman has no family, the matter can be safely covered up. Hagen promises Geary, "All that will be left is our friendship." It is implied that the Corleones have engineered this situation, perhaps through drugging the senator. Michael's capo Al Neri is seen in the bathroom wiping his hands with a towel, indicating that it was he who murdered the prostitute.
Subsequently, it appears that the Corleones' "help" with the incident (in other words, their blackmail of the senator) sways Geary to the family's side. When Michael goes to Havana for a meeting with Hyman Roth and other crime bosses, he also takes the time to associate with several influential figures in government, law, and business. Geary is among this latter group; he greets Michael warmly during a New Year's Eve party held by the Cuban dictator, and later joins them in going to see a live sex show.
Later in the movie, when a U.S. Senate committee is investigating organized crime and subpoenas Michael and others to answer to charges of criminal activity, Geary speaks in defense of Italian-Americans, deploring the stereotyping of them as criminals. However, he also leaves the hearing before Michael testifies.
...................... >>
"It's nothing personal, just business."
<< <i>I'd give the a*s clown a South Side of Chicago style beat down complete with steel toe boots and a pillow case filled with nickels...
Greg M. >>
Who? BurritoJimmy?
sounds good.
<< <i>It seems as though it might be a good idea to load up the cards in my car, and inform him I'm willing to pay [x] for the balance of the deal given the situation. If he balks I can tell him the I have the cards ready to return to him and he can return my money.
Or perhaps I can just inform his wife about what he did. She might just give me the rest of his collection.
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Assuming that I want the cards and NOT the money:
Under NO circumstances would I take the product with me when
I confront the guy.
I would go there, make whatever pitch I decided on, and let the
guy make the decision.
If he wants the cards back, I would make a second trip to return
them OR - better yet - have him come to my public space to pick
them up.
This gives the guy a chance to think about it and decide to complete
the deal.
I would want a discount to complete the deal, BUT if there was enough
profit in the deal, I might let the discount slide.
I would pay any balance due by check or get a nice looking signed receipt.
If the guy gave me a refund it would be CASH ONLY. I would
sign his receipt. I would not accept a check from him and allow
him to take the cards away.
..................
Chatting up his spouse is a tactical decision, but I would hold
it in DEEP reserve.
She is likely NG too, BUT she could be a sterling person trapped
and tortured into a life of misery by a screwball crook.
Your a stand up guy...Just take care of it...Sleep on it one more night if confused
Steve
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
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RIP GURU