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Do "non-dealers" deserve to buy at grey sheet ?
TwoSides2aCoin
Posts: 44,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
Should collectors expect dealer prices because they're armed with "dealer guides" ?
Let's rule out "HIGH DOLLAR" and "junk". Speaking to the"run of the mill" , common date coins that fall into the "generic pricing" lists.
What is a fair mark-up above grey sheet when buying these type of coins ? What should 'in the know' collectors expect at a show regarding "prices" and his own "negotiating prowess" ?
Pricing is a funny thing in this business and I think very few people really understand how and why the grey sheet is used.
Would some experts chime in, and help collectors understand the concept so that outsiders won't be so afraid to take up the hobby and think they're getting "ripped" just because the "grey sheet says" ?
Let's rule out "HIGH DOLLAR" and "junk". Speaking to the"run of the mill" , common date coins that fall into the "generic pricing" lists.
What is a fair mark-up above grey sheet when buying these type of coins ? What should 'in the know' collectors expect at a show regarding "prices" and his own "negotiating prowess" ?
Pricing is a funny thing in this business and I think very few people really understand how and why the grey sheet is used.
Would some experts chime in, and help collectors understand the concept so that outsiders won't be so afraid to take up the hobby and think they're getting "ripped" just because the "grey sheet says" ?
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Comments
Doesn't mean I'm going to sell a car for a lot less than I own it for.
My answer is "Sort Of".
Ken
You can't make a dealer buy for more than he wants to or sell for less than he wants to, you can only find the people (dealers or collectors) who have the coins you want at the prices you want to pay or who will buy your coins at the prices you want.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
Do dealers deserve to buy at 20% back of bid?
<< <i>Personally, "deserve" and "should" got nothing to do with it.
You can't make a dealer buy for more than he wants to or sell for less than he wants to, you can only find the people (dealers or collectors) who have the coins you want at the prices you want to pay or who will buy your coins at the prices you want. >>
Thanks Dave. I was looking for an open ended discussion on it. Some percentage numbers above or below ... A "common" ground, if you "will''. I won't go back to ammend the verbage, though
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I've seen gold take some quick up moves where the greysheet was left in the dust before the next one came out (same comment on the down side too). If you are a non-dealer paying greysheet bid for a coin that is worth 20-30% less at the wholesale level, you are getting no bargain. Buy the coin based on the value it represents, not the grey sheet, not Coin Values, not PCGS price guide, etc. I have to think that in today's tighter market, that dealers are probably licking their chops when they see collectors coming at them "armed" with greysheets.
roadrunner
<< <i>In a rapidly changing market the greysheet has less and less importance. As many here have noted, you can buy something at 20% back of bid and get your a$$ handed to you when you find out the coin is worth 50% back of bid. And there are great coins that if you pay 20% over bid, you're stealing it. The range of grading is wide enough where there are basically no set rules when it comes to coins.
I've seen gold take some quick up moves where the greysheet was left in the dust before the next one came out (same comment on the down side too). If you are a non-dealer paying greysheet bid for a coin that is worth 20-30% less at the wholesale level, you are getting no bargain. Buy the coin based on the value it represents, not the grey sheet, not Coin Values, not PCGS price guide, etc. I have to think that in today's tighter market, that dealers are probably licking their chops when they see collectors coming at them "armed" with greysheets.
roadrunner >>
Good points
Then how do you know the true market value for items? FeeBay? Auctions?
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<< <i>I could care less what the grey sheet says.. I determine what I believe the coin to be worth and what I will pay for it. If a dealer does not want to sell at that price... screw them... I will find another.. just a matter of time. I have no use for profiteers.. and those that say they deserve a profit - fine, let them pay the profit. My money does not get thrown mindlessly at the scavengers so hungrily barking for it. There are always deals available.. just expand your horizons. Cheers, RickO >>
Grey Sheet is simply a guide... much in the same way that a grade is simply an opinion... both become meaningless unless there is a consensus agreement between all interested parties.
If one is to use Grey Sheet as a reference then they might take a moment to read the "fine print" at the bottom of page one...go ahead...pull out your sheet and read it...
As Roadrunner pointed out... it IS just a guide and has no bearing at all on many coins. Take a 1908-O Barber Quarter as an example... it often goes for 3x sheet and yet CDN has not made any effort to reflect this.
And as Gave G aptly points out... it is up to the "potential" seller and buyer to either reach an agreement or not.
As for me... I will offer what I feel is fair... based on experience, knowledge and research... sometimes I do well and sometimes I make mistakes... such is the fate of being human...
If you have a wish to buy a coin I offer, I will offer a price based on what I feel it is worth... if you agree, we have a deal ... if not, we don't... and I do not care what price guide (if any) you choose to carry around or put in my face... I set my price... play or pass...
Sure, if I find myself not selling anything, it would behoove me to rethink my pricing (on the buy and sell sides)... on the other hand... if I find myself getting "fleeced" by dealers and collectors alike, I might want to consider raising my prices...
In summation... there is no "cut and dried" answer to the OP's question... I have bought and sold coins at far below bid and some have gone at prices well above any retail price guide... and a good many trade right around the bid/ask range (such as generic Morgans)...
Then you come across a unique piece and it's time to toss all the guides to the side...
(just like RYK likes to say... "it depends..."
Scarce/rare coins, for the most part, are not going to be obtainable at wholesale levels.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
I think these days too many collectors think they should get great coins at "sheet" prices. I'll just speak for Bust material, I,ve seen many images posted of their "sheet"
deals and I think they got what they asked for and what they deserved.
I think what the OP is asking is should collectors be able to purchase coins at dealer to dealer pricing. I say sure, as long as the collector and dealer have a relationship and an understanding that the coins are being sold as dealer to dealer coins get sold. That is that the collector is willing to give up all the rights that collectors expect in a transaction, ie: return privileges, expert opinion, education, etc.
<< <i>The premise is flawed. Greysheet is price guide, and does not reflect true value of an individual coin. There are many coins that can be purchased retail at a price equal to greysheet because the individual coin is worth much less than greysheet in the wholesale market. There are many coins that cannot be purchased at greysheet because they cost substantially more in the wholesale market. And now we can argue the definition of "wholesale market"
I think what the OP is asking is should collectors be able to purchase coins at dealer to dealer pricing. I say sure, as long as the collector and dealer have a relationship and an understanding that the coins are being sold as dealer to dealer coins get sold. That is that the collector is willing to give up all the rights that collectors expect in a transaction, ie: return privileges, expert opinion, education, etc. >>
The problem is mentioned in your last line Fatman.
I agree 100% with you by the way.
Many want their cake to remain whole while they still get to eat it.
Who cares what Greysheet is? A coin is worth only what someone will pay for it. I use price guides, as I said earlier, Galves is, in the northeast, the "Bible" of used car values. Now, go to an auction... some cars bring less, some THOUSANDS more than "book".
What will a true original skin XF Barber Half bring in comparison to Greysheet? WAY over from what I understand. Same thing with a Toyota Sienna... find me a clean 2006 LE 8 passenger with 35k on it in, say, Silver Pearl... it'll do $14,500 and Galves calls it at $11,500. Less if it's been painted, much as the Barber is worth less if it's been dipped.
Market dictates pricing, guides are merely that, guides.
Bill
Some coins in inventory I will not sell even to another dealer at ASK because I know that I can sell it at retail (ASK + a variable premium.) I often do this on New Toys for 30 days or so, just to give our retail customers first chance at them. Some coins I will sell at ASK to a dealer, or to a customer. It depends.
Some coins I will sell at BID because I have too many of them. Recently we bought a collection with four complete sets of Morgan dollars lacking only the 1895-P's. I didn't need four each 1889-CC, 1893-S, 1894-P, etc. We kept some and let the rest go away, giving our regular customers first shot at them.
In other words, we operate under the Law Of Supply And Demand, not the Law Of The Greysheet. It doesn't hurt to ask us to sell Item X at Price Y, but please do not be offended if we say no.
TD
<< <i>The premise is flawed. Greysheet is price guide, and does not reflect true value of an individual coin. There are many coins that can be purchased retail at a price equal to greysheet because the individual coin is worth much less than greysheet in the wholesale market. There are many coins that cannot be purchased at greysheet because they cost substantially more in the wholesale market. And now we can argue the definition of "wholesale market"
I think what the OP is asking is should collectors be able to purchase coins at dealer to dealer pricing. I say sure, as long as the collector and dealer have a relationship and an understanding that the coins are being sold as dealer to dealer coins get sold. That is that the collector is willing to give up all the rights that collectors expect in a transaction, ie: return privileges, expert opinion, education, etc. >>
Fatman and Roadrunner get to the heart of the issue. Greysheet is only a guide, and only occasionally reflects wholesale pricing. Some sellers routinely list many of their Ebay coins at greysheet bid or ask--for those common coins, greysheet is closer to retail price, and 20% back of bid or 40% back of bid might be the wholesale offer if the coin is walked around at a show.
As to whether a collector "deserves" something, no one "deserves" anything. For coins every price is negotiable. The price someone gets when buying or selling, depends on the strength of their relationships, their numismatic knowledge, and their negotiating skill. Want better prices? Get better at grading, develop better relationships with those with coins for sale, or those buying coins, negotiate better. End of issue. No one "deserves" anything in terms of pricing.
And more importantly what differentiates a dealer from a collector in the venue in which the transaction is to transpire?
Is it having a Grey Sheet in the back pocket?
Is it saying "I'm a dealer?"
Is it having a business card?
Is it having a B&M (or photo of a B&M)?
Is it having a business license?
Is it having an eBay store front?
Is it being able to point to a classified advert in CW and saying "That's me?"
Is it being able to point to a 1/4 page or larger ad in CW?
Is it being able to produce an inventory sheet?
Is it being able to produce a schedule C for 1 or more years indicating self employment?
Is it being able to produce a tax ID number?
Other B2B transactions occur at wholesale with retail pricing reserved for fleecing the Proletariat. Why would numismatic transactions be any different?
........best way. buy your coins at the prices the dealers buy them for and sell them at the prices HSN sells theirs for!
<< <i>The premise is flawed. Greysheet is price guide, and does not reflect true value of an individual coin. There are many coins that can be purchased retail at a price equal to greysheet because the individual coin is worth much less than greysheet in the wholesale market. There are many coins that cannot be purchased at greysheet because they cost substantially more in the wholesale market. And now we can argue the definition of "wholesale market"
I think what the OP is asking is should collectors be able to purchase coins at dealer to dealer pricing. I say sure, as long as the collector and dealer have a relationship and an understanding that the coins are being sold as dealer to dealer coins get sold. That is that the collector is willing to give up all the rights that collectors expect in a transaction, ie: return privileges, expert opinion, education, etc. >>
I agree with FatMan re: the price guides. I will disagree only in that sometimes, as a collector, when you have a good relationship with a dealer, you can get coins for less than what he will sell to other dealers. I have seen it happen. At the 2007 ANA, a coin was offered to me for "x", I waffled and passed, the dealer who was competing with me for the coin walked up and bought the coin for "x+$2000", right before my eyes.
I have seen very few coins that I would add to my collection at anywhere near Greysheet levels. I have also seen very few coins that my favorite dealers could add to their inventories at anywhere near Greysheet levels.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>Do non-grey sheet subscribers deserve a free quote? >>
I'd think the correct response is... "It depends."
like maybe bullion
the more I learn about coins, the more I realize that there is
much more to a coins worth, than a simple integral grade
<< <i>
<< <i>The premise is flawed. Greysheet is price guide, and does not reflect true value of an individual coin. There are many coins that can be purchased retail at a price equal to greysheet because the individual coin is worth much less than greysheet in the wholesale market. There are many coins that cannot be purchased at greysheet because they cost substantially more in the wholesale market. And now we can argue the definition of "wholesale market"
I think what the OP is asking is should collectors be able to purchase coins at dealer to dealer pricing. I say sure, as long as the collector and dealer have a relationship and an understanding that the coins are being sold as dealer to dealer coins get sold. That is that the collector is willing to give up all the rights that collectors expect in a transaction, ie: return privileges, expert opinion, education, etc. >>
The problem is mentioned in your last line Fatman.
I agree 100% with you by the way.
Many want their cake to remain whole while they still get to eat it. >>
Unless its an explicit part of the deal why should one give up rights just cuz he pays less? To me if a dealer is willing to sell at a set price why should he care who pays it as long as their money is green? What gets me is those collectors who demand sheet prices or lower. Poop on em.
<< <i>Should collectors expect dealer prices because they're armed with "dealer guides" ?
Let's rule out "HIGH DOLLAR" and "junk". Speaking to the"run of the mill" , common date coins that fall into the "generic pricing" lists.
What is a fair mark-up above grey sheet when buying these type of coins ? What should 'in the know' collectors expect at a show regarding "prices" and his own "negotiating prowess" ?
Pricing is a funny thing in this business and I think very few people really understand how and why the grey sheet is used.
Would some experts chime in, and help collectors understand the concept so that outsiders won't be so afraid to take up the hobby and think they're getting "ripped" just because the "grey sheet says" ? >>
My local dealer is open and honest with greysheet and allows customers free access to it. He sells at greysheet and buys at 5-15% back of greysheet, depending on the piece. But other scumba... err, "dealers" approach this differently. There is the other local shop that I refuse to go into, where the owner buys at 10-20% behind greysheet claiming to sellers that greysheet is retail pricing, but if you go in to purchase, he whips out Coin World Trends/Red Book and up for pricing.
The whole notion that "only dealers deserve to buy at greysheet" is offensive. It's just another price guide, and it is not inherently "reserved" for a special elite class.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
"...{the Greysheet} reports the national Dealer-to-Dealer wholesale coin market, monitoring all possible transactions and offers to buy coins SIGHT-SEEN. The coins may be certified or "raw" (uncertified), but MUST ADHERE to the current leading standard..."
(it also goes on to say that "these prices are for Dealer-to-Dealer transactions and that all collectors and investors should expect to pay a premium above these prices"...)
...but hey...who takes the time to read all that silly fine print anyway?
<< <i>From the bottom of the front page of the grey sheet... "the fine print"...
"...{the Greysheet} reports the national Dealer-to-Dealer wholesale coin market, monitoring all possible transactions and offers to buy coins SIGHT-SEEN. The coins may be certified or "raw" (uncertified), but MUST ADHERE to the current leading standard..."
(it also goes on to say that "these prices are for Dealer-to-Dealer transactions and that all collectors and investors should expect to pay a premium above these prices"...)
...but hey...who takes the time to read all that silly fine print anyway? >>
And that somehow makes it "binding"?
I can publish a price guide on beanie babies and loudly proclaim that "only redheaded women between the ages of 20 and 30 can expect to pay these prices; everyone else pays a premium" and it pretty much means diddly squat.
It's just another price guide.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>
<< <i>Should collectors expect dealer prices because they're armed with "dealer guides" ?
Let's rule out "HIGH DOLLAR" and "junk". Speaking to the"run of the mill" , common date coins that fall into the "generic pricing" lists.
What is a fair mark-up above grey sheet when buying these type of coins ? What should 'in the know' collectors expect at a show regarding "prices" and his own "negotiating prowess" ?
Pricing is a funny thing in this business and I think very few people really understand how and why the grey sheet is used.
Would some experts chime in, and help collectors understand the concept so that outsiders won't be so afraid to take up the hobby and think they're getting "ripped" just because the "grey sheet says" ? >>
My local dealer is open and honest with greysheet and allows customers free access to it. He sells at greysheet and buys at 5-15% back of greysheet, depending on the piece. But other scumba... err, "dealers" approach this differently. There is the other local shop that I refuse to go into, where the owner buys at 10-20% behind greysheet claiming to sellers that greysheet is retail pricing, but if you go in to purchase, he whips out Coin World Trends/Red Book and up for pricing.
The whole notion that "only dealers deserve to buy at greysheet" is offensive. It's just another price guide, and it is not inherently "reserved" for a special elite class. >>
Is that GS bid or ask?
<< <i>...but hey...who takes the time to read all that silly fine print anyway? >>
My loupe is for coins, not fine print
Yours is a great post.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
A : NO
B : Become a 'dealer'
C : YES , but tack on about 15 % to cover my table fee ,
state and federal taxes and misc expences .
<< <i>And that somehow makes it "binding"? >>
Of course it doesn't make it binding.
But then again, if you use a tool for a purpose unintended by the tool's creator, your results may be unpredictable. Think screwdriver/chisel- you can certainly try to use one for the other, but they might not work as well as they would, had you chosen the appropriate tool for the job.
<< <i>The whole notion that "only dealers deserve to buy at greysheet" is offensive. It's just another price guide, and it is not inherently "reserved" for a special elite class. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The real questions are, "How do you differentiate between retail and wholesale customers?", and "How do you value retail versus wholesale business?"
It seems obvious to me that if the customer is purchasing material for essentially immediate resale, then they are a dealer.
At a show, we'll sell generic coins at the same price to dealers or public. If you call the office and ask to buy a single Saint in 64, we're going to add something to our wholesale quote to cover the cost of picking up the phone and shipping a single coin, when the alternative is to hit a button and include the coin in a daily generic gold invoice. The value of creating a relationship with an apparent buyer of 64 Saints is, unfortunately, not all that high. :-)
On the other hand, if you want to buy something special, we'll quote at or below wholesale, because we want to earn customers who might in the future sell us the fresh coins we place with them today. While it's faster, cheaper, and easier to do wholesale business, cutting out any middle-men is obviously advantageous to both parties for price reasons.
Finally, we price some coins at a slightly reduced level to dealers in order to give them an incentive to market our coins to their customers. Some people would rather leverage an existing relationship with one dealer to buy another dealer's coins, even at the same or greater cost.
877-DISRPTK
<< <i>To us, the issue has nothing to do with one source of pricing data or another. Anyone familiar with the market can provide a long list of coins that are over or under-priced in the greysheet, based on what those coins really trade for.
The real questions are, "How do you differentiate between retail and wholesale customers?", and "How do you value retail versus wholesale business?"
It seems obvious to me that if the customer is purchasing material for essentially immediate resale, then they are a dealer.
At a show, we'll sell generic coins at the same price to dealers or public. If you call the office and ask to buy a single Saint in 64, we're going to add something to our wholesale quote to cover the cost of picking up the phone and shipping a single coin, when the alternative is to hit a button and include the coin in a daily generic gold invoice. The value of creating a relationship with an apparent buyer of 64 Saints is, unfortunately, not all that high. :-)
On the other hand, if you want to buy something special, we'll quote at or below wholesale, because we want to earn customers who might in the future sell us the fresh coins we place with them today. While it's faster, cheaper, and easier to do wholesale business, cutting out any middle-men is obviously advantageous to both parties for price reasons.
Finally, we price some coins at a slightly reduced level to dealers in order to give them an incentive to market our coins to their customers. Some people would rather leverage an existing relationship with one dealer to buy another dealer's coins, even at the same or greater cost. >>
A perfectly logical and reasonable approach.
When someone tries to apply generalities like "only dealers should be able to buy at greysheet prices" it gets my hackles up, because it's a stupid and flawed premise.
Why?
Because there are so many other variables that can and should affect a dealer/dealer or dealer/collector transaction:
the individual coin in question
the certification of said coin or lack thereof
the relationship between the two parties
the cashflow status of the dealer in question
the inventory status of the dealer in question
the magnitude of the transaction
the payment terms
the return provisions
etc., etc.
Any number of variables can affect prices above or down from any given price guide, so trying to apply flat "rules" or "privileges" is just dumb.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
I thought the grey referred to the color the seller's skin turns to, after they hear the amount offered for their coins.
Thank you to those who've done a masterful job at helping me , and hopefully a lot of people to understand the basis of retail and wholesale and how transparent our hobby actually is.
There are few things left in the world where we can negotiate the price we pay or receive.
For instance: Who can tell their recycler what aluminum is really worth and squeeze a few extra dollars out of him ?
Who gets to negotiate the price of their groceries or food & services, phone bills and gas ?
Coins are a nice break away and give us some controls. I heard from the Portland show that Julian wouldn't let Realone talk him down on a coin. That made my day
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