So, after reading a recent post, I guess a lot of people think Classis Commems are not worth buying.
Kdog08
Posts: 771
What is the going rate right now for these "they're not really coins" pieces??? Is there is serious discounting going on at shows for the Bay Bridge, California, Texas and Pilgrims? I don't really follow them too close, but I love the history. Enlighten me if you can!!!
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We can always hope!
<< <i>What is the going rate right now for these "they're not really coins" pieces??? Is there is serious discounting going on at shows for the Bay Bridge, California, Texas and Pilgrims? I don't really follow them too close, but I love the history. Enlighten me if you can!!! >>
I don't expect these "they're not really coins" to fall much in price. The reason is that they have not risen in price over the past 7 years with the rest of the market. There are tons of barking dogs in plastic that can bought on the cheap, but the nice appealing commens are priced at stronger levels.
It is kind of hard being a commem collector, because you have to make your own rules. It is insane to do the whole 144 piece set. Even the 50 piece type set seems crazy given that some of the designs are hideous (Wisconsin??!!) and some of the "events" are ridiculous (Cincinatti). So, everyone decides what they want, what they like, what is relevant to them, and buys that. And these things stay fairly stable. Oregon is beautiful, so everyone with an interest in commems wants one. There are plenty to go around. There aren't that many nice Vermonts, but aside from hard core commem collectors, guess who wants them? The coin collecting citizens of Vermont (hello!), the 2nd least populous state in the nation! Ergo, price stays flat. Et cetera, et cetera.
There is demand. It just isn't growing. It could even be that some of the price in the last few years has been predicated on the notion that demand would increase; it is becoming apparent that it has not done so, so prices might even be declining a little.
I first started buying classic commems in gem around 1994 and soon found out how truly common most pieces are on the bourse. Most issues can be found by the score and, perhaps because of this, the grading services have a long history of lax grading of these coins. Therefore, many so-called gems are either overgraded or are simply nasty coins. I sold off my classic commems in the late 1990s and have watched as this niche market has lagged relative to most other areas of US numismatics.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
In the "old days", prior to 1998 or so, commems were held to a higher standard when graded at the services. They are common in gem when graded to the standards of regular issues. This change inflated pops and got us to where we are today.
Killer commems are just as scarce as they ever were. You just have to sort through the 67's and 68's for the real, or should I say "old time", 66's and 67's.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
As for mortgaging the house, there are may be only a couple of opportunities in a lifetime where that might be worthwhile, such as the Eliasberg dispersion or Farouk sale. And then only if one is a superior collector with one of the best eye's in the hobby, on the par with Pittman. 90% of collectors are not anywhere near that level. Buying classic commems at current prices are not remotely close to that kind of opportunity. In my opinion, borrowing money to buy classic commems at full retail prices would be an incredibly stupid move. Now for someone well connected like a young David Hall was, perhaps buying at below wholesale, with a possibility of promotion, it might make some sense. For an average collector paying full price, with no special connections when it comes to selling, it makes zero sense.
There is a big difference between collecting them, investing in them, and borrowing money to invest in them. For the average collector, the latter is almost always a stupid move. There might be special circumstances where it might make sense, but not for the average unconnected collector.
<< <i>There is a big difference between "not worth buying," and mortgaging the house to buy them. As always, collect them if you like them. Buy for cash (not on credit) with hobby money. Enjoy the hobby.
As for mortgaging the house, there are may be only a couple of opportunities in a lifetime where that might be worthwhile, such as the Eliasberg dispersion or Farouk sale. And then only if one is a superior collector with one of the best eye's in the hobby, on the par with Pittman. 90% of collectors are not anywhere near that level. Buying classic commems at current prices are not remotely close to that kind of opportunity. In my opinion, borrowing money to buy classic commems at full retail prices would be an incredibly stupid move. Now for someone well connected like a young David Hall was, perhaps buying at below wholesale, with a possibility of promotion, it might make some sense. For an average collector paying full price, with no special connections when it comes to selling, it makes zero sense.
There is a big difference between collecting them, investing in them, and borrowing money to invest in them. For the average collector, the latter is almost always a stupid move. There might be special circumstances where it might make sense, but not for the average unconnected collector. >>
Great post!
they seem to be out of favor
therefore the pricing has been heading lower
buy low, buy more lower??
The up cycles that normally last as long as the down cycles. But they
are very cheap in my opinion at the moment. Good time to Buy.
Al
<< <i>There is a big difference between "not worth buying," and mortgaging the house to buy them. As always, collect them if you like them. Buy for cash (not on credit) with hobby money. Enjoy the hobby.
As for mortgaging the house, there are may be only a couple of opportunities in a lifetime where that might be worthwhile, such as the Eliasberg dispersion or Farouk sale. And then only if one is a superior collector with one of the best eye's in the hobby, on the par with Pittman. 90% of collectors are not anywhere near that level. Buying classic commems at current prices are not remotely close to that kind of opportunity. In my opinion, borrowing money to buy classic commems at full retail prices would be an incredibly stupid move. Now for someone well connected like a young David Hall was, perhaps buying at below wholesale, with a possibility of promotion, it might make some sense. For an average collector paying full price, with no special connections when it comes to selling, it makes zero sense.
There is a big difference between collecting them, investing in them, and borrowing money to invest in them. For the average collector, the latter is almost always a stupid move. There might be special circumstances where it might make sense, but not for the average unconnected collector. >>
Well said, and I agree with every word.
Word.
<< <i>It's not like nobody wants them. After all, compare a 1920 Pilgrim in 64, for instance, to other coins of the same era that are as readily obtainable, and you'll see that in fact it is fairly expensive. They grow on trees, just about, yet they sell between $100 and $140. The thing is, demand for them stays steady. They are a collecting niche, and they'll probably stay just that.
It is kind of hard being a commem collector, because you have to make your own rules. It is insane to do the whole 144 piece set. Even the 50 piece type set seems crazy given that some of the designs are hideous (Wisconsin??!!) and some of the "events" are ridiculous (Cincinatti). So, everyone decides what they want, what they like, what is relevant to them, and buys that. And these things stay fairly stable. Oregon is beautiful, so everyone with an interest in commems wants one. There are plenty to go around. There aren't that many nice Vermonts, but aside from hard core commem collectors, guess who wants them? The coin collecting citizens of Vermont (hello!), the 2nd least populous state in the nation! Ergo, price stays flat. Et cetera, et cetera.
There is demand. It just isn't growing. It could even be that some of the price in the last few years has been predicated on the notion that demand would increase; it is becoming apparent that it has not done so, so prices might even be declining a little. >>
Excellent commentary
roadrunner
<< <i>these issues are readily available at any show/in any auction and the secret to collecting them is simple-----find the designs/theme you like and the "look" that you want for your collection, then settle for nothing else. some diligent searching and prudent bargaining will build you a nice set, although it won't happen overnight. >>
I agree.
I currently own two of my favorite designs, Oregon and Texas.
I don't see myself buying any more in the future.
<< <i>a lot of commems can currently be had for 25%-60% back of CDN bid if you know where to look. >>
Not the budget eating top of the line toners, that's for sure. You want a plain white commem, sure you can get that back of bid. You want a high end, high equality colorful one...expect to pay moon money and expect to get moon money if/when you sell one.
<< <i> Even the 50 piece type set seems crazy given that some of the designs are hideous (Wisconsin??!!) and some of the "events" are ridiculous (Cincinatti). >>
Some are ugly and some clearly were invented to make money. Nevertheless as a set collector once I started them I had to do the 50 piece type set. It has been 15 years or so since I did them and even then I was warned that they were not "hot". The set was done in MS 63-64 with a couple of MS 60's (yes, Virginia, there were actually MS 60's) of the more expensive ones. Some coins still cost roughly what I paid for them. Others have doubled and tripled. I never expected them to be an investment and for all I know as a whole they might have only kept up with inflation. Still, I liked collecting them and having them.
<< <i>a lot of commems can currently be had for 25%-60% back of CDN bid if you know where to look. >>
Sure, and those are the barking dogs in plastic. Dipped out lifeless coins that the TPGs have been grading as high as 66 over the years. It is these barking dogs that keep the commem pricing down. For every nice commem sold at higher and higher prices there are 90 other dogs sitting in dealer's cases or being traded between dealers at way behind bid pricing.
If you are buying them as the beautiful collectible commems they are then it
is a great time to be adding them to your collection.
<< <i>It disappoints me that so many appear to choose their coin collection interest based on how much money they can sell it for in near future. To paraphrase QDB, the people who do the best in coins financially are the ones that study them, enjoy them, appreciate them, hold them for a long period of time, and are not concerned about the market for them on a day-to-day basis. Buying coins to sell them, in my mind, is not collecting. Buying coins to enjoy them is collecting. >>
i agree with the above, but just to muddy the water a bit, if you read one of QDBs "Adventures in Rare Coins" books, (forget which one), he says the only coin series he thinks it is OK to buy low, and then sell high as the market goes through its cycles is Classic Commems. This is because off the large supply of gem and better coins, make them replaceable once you sell them and the market comes down.
Two comments to this: There has been no"up" in the classic commem market in a long time to sell into (10, 15 years?), and if you are in the Monster Toner section of this market, they are not as replaceable as QDB says.
Classic Commem's are certainly worth buying ... if that's where your pursuit takes you. Commem's are a fascinating,
historically important and a very artistic series. They have a lot to love.
In the long run, I believe it is much more enjoyable to follow a collecting path, and try to remove the speculating and
investing quotient from your pursuit.
Take the time to learn the value (not the "price") of your pursuits, and then use that knowledge to purchase them wisely to
build your collection. By learning about the coins that interest you, and what the best of those coins are in terms of surface
quality, eye-appeal, grade, etc., I also believe you will probably make out okay over time financially.
Learn what you possibly can, only buy what you can afford to keep, and take care of your coins. And have fun, this is a hobby!
oh, and just because I can't resist ...
25 to 60% back of bid ...
ha ... 99 times out of 100 that is a barking dog in a coffin hoping to God for deaf owner with a deep hole and no shovel.
And that isn't just for commem's
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
<< <i>I Like Them
Lee,
Outstanding job on putting that material together. I really enjoyed reading it and appreciate the time you put into doing it.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"