I give up - pr69 vs pr70 08w Buffalo - whats the difference????

drfish

I have purchased quite a few of these and have studied them with and without magnification and under different lighting-I just can't find a difference.I give up-You guys with experience -what are you looking for?...I have about a dozen buffalos still in mint packaging and at this point will probably leave them as is rather than risk a bunch of 69s(or if I'm real unlucky a 68 or two).....Also does anyone have ratios for PCGS vs NGC 68/69/70's for this series?Now for the pure speculation question-If you sent a dozen PCGS 69 to NGC how many would cross at 70-a dozen NGC 70 to PCGS how many would cross at 70? Thanks,Steve

RYK

I give up - pr69 vs pr70 08w Buffalo - whats the difference????

A few hundred dollars...unless, of course, you have the coveted First Shipped™, and then it's a few hundred more dollars.

Most collectors will tell you there is no difference. Some will tell you that they can see the difference. I am in the former camp.

ericj96

Not much...

RyGuy

I think the only difference is a roll of the dice. I too, have looked at examples of both with/without magnification and couldn't find any differences.

Ryan

2manycoins2fewfunds

Difference is usually very small....a rub here, a break in the frost there.

Best seen if coin is rolled side to side with a off angle light source.

Most common difference can be the rims where modern proofs often have ejection damage.

Kaelasdad

I had some coins last year that I refused to search through, because I had advertised them as unsearched. After i was flamed, because the flamer could not believe i would knowingly not search coins, I went and submitted them in a bulk order to PCGS. 20% came back as 70s. When i compared them against each other, it was clear that a 69 usually had something--anything--a flashy spot, a speck,--anything that I determined caught a graders eye and immediately made it a 69. The coins that didnt immediately stand out were then 70s--just my observation on that one order, but they were a large grouping of modern widgets, and it seemed logical to compare.

YaHa

Depends on the time of the morning your coin is graded. I heard a story that most graders are drinkers and inbetween the eye crust or focal problems early in the morning usally after more drinks during lunch you will have a shot a 70 grade.

ozzyfan269

<< <i>Difference is usually very small....a rub here, a break in the frost there.

Best seen if coin is rolled side to side with a off angle light source.

Most common difference can be the rims where modern proofs often have ejection damage. >>



100% correct!

"Best seen if coin is rolled side to side with a off angle light source." - ANY imperfection seen in this manner will normally knock it down to PCGS 69.

Bcsican

I think many times PCGS uses the "S.W.A.G." system when grading these coins...

"STUPID WILD ASS GUESS"...... exactly why I now stay away from MS 70 and DCAM 70 coins after owning many DCAM 70 Kennedys too many I owned should not be in 70 DCAM holders, back in early 2000s no one wanted to take a chance losing big money paid paid on these coins in question and were sold to others just looking for the grade i.e. 70 IGC, ANACS and early days of PCGS...I still see PCGS 70 coins I really question the grade is worthy...does PCGS stand behind over graded coins and pay back dollars spent if it is a 69 grade??? The bottom line it is subjective from one opinion to anothers worthy of thousands more for one grade point is in the eye of the beholder....

TwoSides2aCoin

These are too new and I haven't seen any proofs in hand. Send me a couple and I will assess them and give you a full written report.

sfs2002usa

Nothing visible to the naked eye!
Definitely noticeable in your wallet

MidLifeCrisis

There's not enough of a difference to pay for...or to matter, IMO.

Nice sig line RYK!

FatMan

Maybe wondercoin can give us a definitive answer. My guess is it has to do with minute strike differences.

BECOKA

There is a difference to a degree and some folks can pick them out and with a high % rate get them into 70 holders. Talk to wondercoin he might be able to explain.

jmski52

Now let me get this straight. Has PCGS never said what they consider to be the difference?

Treeman

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... Take 5 random "70's" and 5 random "69's", mix them up (with grades covered), and nobody, not even the graders at PCGS or NGC, will pick the 5 "70's". I've looked at a lot of these (Kennedys, ASE's, ect.), and the "69's" are sometimes better than the "70's". It's all hype, and it's mostly luck of the draw. Test yourself with random samples, then tell me about these microscopic differences. Besides, "perfect" coins do not exist, so why use "70" as a grade? "69" should be the ultimate....

ozzyfan269

<< <i>I've said it before, and I'll say it again... Take 5 random "70's" and 5 random "69's", mix them up (with grades covered), and nobody, not even the graders at PCGS or NGC, will pick the 5 "70's". I've looked at a lot of these (Kennedys, ASE's, ect.), and the "69's" are sometimes better than the "70's". It's all hype, and it's mostly luck of the draw. Test yourself with random samples, then tell me about these microscopic differences. Besides, "perfect" coins do not exist, so why use "70" as a grade? "69" should be the ultimate.... >>



WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

GFourDriver

When I returned to coin collecting a few years ago, my main interest was in PCGS only PR 70DCAM Gold AGE's and Silver ASE's especially the lower pop (7-30) early ASE's. Since then I have sold off almost all my PR 70DCAM ASE's and AGE's not because of the grading differences between 69 and 70 but because they are so volatile. The pop can only go up and as new 70's are found, the value can plummet for some of the smaller pop 70's. It's for that reason I now like older type coins. It's a good place to be sitting right now investment-wise not to mention the intrinsic value of hours of enjoyment finding the right coins.

John

Treeman

"WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!"

Clarify on which point this "dork" is wrong. You've never seen "69's" that were nicer than "70's" for the same coin? I've seen it from both sevices. Look at a bunch of these coins.....

IrishMike

As you listen to someone explain to you how they can tell the difference be sure you are holding onto your wallet. Its a grade driven by the distribution channel and the human desire to having something that someone considers the best. I'll leave it up to Freud to explain that desire.

OPA

<< <i>

<< <i>I've said it before, and I'll say it again... Take 5 random "70's" and 5 random "69's", mix them up (with grades covered), and nobody, not even the graders at PCGS or NGC, will pick the 5 "70's". I've looked at a lot of these (Kennedys, ASE's, ect.), and the "69's" are sometimes better than the "70's". It's all hype, and it's mostly luck of the draw. Test yourself with random samples, then tell me about these microscopic differences. Besides, "perfect" coins do not exist, so why use "70" as a grade? "69" should be the ultimate.... >>



WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

>>





Total nonsensical statement. If you can't pick out a "modern 70" from a 69 ... stick to the classic coins. Even with my poor eyesight and with some magnification, they are quite distinguishable.

Treeman

"My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts."

The signature fits....

Placid

<< <i>Now let me get this straight. Has PCGS never said what they consider to be the difference? >>



A 70 is supposed to be "perfect" at 5x magnification and a 69 is not.
I sent a modern coin to pcgs that I thought would get a 68 maybe a 69 if lucky and pcgs graded it 70.

2manycoins2fewfunds

There will always be some subjective elements to grading.

The difference between a MS69 and MS70 is little different from difference between a MS67 and MS68 and just as subjective at times.


One thing to always remember is when you are comparing coins in slabs you are only seeing 2 of the 3 surfaces.

An interesting experiment is to take a roll of any type of coins and see if you can tell any of the coins apart just looking at edges.

TwoSides2aCoin

Grading is subjective and with new issues, where tens of thousands are minted and only a fraction of them are submitted, a scale has to start somewhere. The thread title is specific on BUFFALOES so most of us are not even qualified to have much of an opinion on them until we've seen hundreds. I may not agree with your opinion, treeman, but I don't think you're a dork.

I have one Buffalo from the double colonoscopy set, and it's uncirculated.
I would tend to trust Kaelasdad or to defer to FatMan's post.

COINB0Y

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>The difference between a MS69 and MS70 is little different from difference between a MS67 and MS68 and just as subjective at times. >>


People usually see what they want to see...

Type2

<< <i>Depends on the time of the morning your coin is graded. I heard a story that most graders are drinkers and inbetween the eye crust or focal problems early in the morning usally after more drinks during lunch you will have a shot a 70 grade.

>>

My next sub I'll put a 12 pack in with it may help.

GUINZO1975

I sent several coins in for grading. The ones I thougt would get a 69 got a 70. The ones I thought were a sure 70 got a 69. I think if the graders got laid the night before you will get a 70, if not you will get a 69. That's my theory.

YaHa

<< <i>

<< <i>Depends on the time of the morning your coin is graded. I heard a story that most graders are drinkers and inbetween the eye crust or focal problems early in the morning usally after more drinks during lunch you will have a shot a 70 grade.

>>

My next sub I'll put a 12 pack in with it may help. >>



They still sell 12pks? I see these mini kegs nowadays, pretty cool but what would I know about spirts. I get high on life.

JoeForex

eye appeal wont be much different. maybe a small nick on the rim etc. however it seems to have become the evolution of coin collecting. people seem willing to pay a premium for a label but it really comes down to the old principal of supply and demand. first strike labels are the best example of this. same coin, same grade, 2 different labels, two different $$. collect and buy what makes you happy

golfer72

My own opinion is if you cant see a noticeable difference in grade without magnification than the grade differential should be worth 10% maximum. Having 50%, 200% price differentials between grades like 69 and 70 is nuts. If you look at the actual differences between lower MS grades on coins that have received the same grade you see that grading these coins 69 vs 70 really does not make any sense. You can look at several MS65's side by side and see differences but see essentially no difference between different graded coins like 68,69,70. Why pay for it then?

JohnMaben

The first thing you have to realize is there is no "perfect" coin. If you think you have one, send it to me and I will find the flaws for you.
If you agree with me, then you probably also agree the word should not be included in any published definitions of what constitutes a 70 grade.

Use of the word is idealistic and based on inaccurate perceptions of decades past that maturation of the modern coin market has rendered inaccurate.

It is VERY subjective and coins will be graded differently if you cracked your 70's and resubmitted them (but who would do this?) even more so than in lower grades or with classic coinage.

Some things that drop a coin from 70 to 69:

spots
hairlines (not die lines)
too many tiny struck thru's (notice I say "too many" because a few if small will still be given the 70 grade, some call these "shiny spots" as they often but not always appear shiny)
toning (depends on the toning, a coin can still get a 70 with toning if light and attractive)
rim defects (I believe NGC may be a hair more tolerant in this area)
surface irregularities deemed detrimental to appearance (as an example about 30-40% of all 2006-W $50 proof buffalo's have a milky haze usually around the periphery)
marks
contact friction on high points (as an example, many proof gold eagles look 70 but if you tilt and use maginification you will see a flat spot or what appears to be rub on the knee, breast area, torch, or eagle)
strike quality and completeness

If I took more time to think about it I could probably come up with at least five to ten more....

As for the premiums, that's a function of supply and demand and individual taste.

Happy New Year to all!

John

EvilEmpire

GUINZO hit the nail on the head, IMHO. If you have a great nite, and have to work the next day, you are going to tend to be in a good mood at work, that good time still in your head...until the boss breaks 'em on you, ruining your day.

silvergoldnut

i got in at the right time with collecting the buffalos. started from the begining.2006-2008 proofs

i thought paying $1280.00 for a 2008 first strike pr70 dcam was high,but if you break it down its a hair over 100.00 for a first strike 70.

if I put this on e-bay i think i would at least get my money back. and this would be before the sell out.

can i tell from a 69 and a 70 .... HELL NO !!!!

CertifiedGoldCoins

A lot of discussion here about what makes the difference between a 69 and a 70. But not much on whether the sometimes huge price difference is worth it. And in the long run, it might not be.

As GFourDriver observed,

<< <i>"The pop can only go up and as new 70's are found, the value can plummet for some of the smaller pop 70's." >>

... except for First Strike, that is.

derryb

"I give up - pr69 vs pr70 08w Buffalo - whats the difference????"

You keep the 69's and sell the 70's.

notwilight

You guys should learn to grade moderns, just like one should learn to grade classics. It's as easy as that. If you can't grade them, don't insist that nobody else can either. It is not witchcraft. Here is the real difference: it is stylish to claim you can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 but embarassing to admit you can't tell the difference between a 64 and a 65. But if you look at our "grade the coin" threads there is always a huge spread in the guesses. Most forum members can't grade. --Jerry

Swampboy

<< <i>Some things that drop a coin from 70 to 69:
spots
hairlines (not die lines)
too many tiny struck thru's (notice I say "too many" because a few if small will still be given the 70 grade, some call these "shiny spots" as they often but not always appear shiny)
toning (depends on the toning, a coin can still get a 70 with toning if light and attractive)
rim defects (I believe NGC may be a hair more tolerant in this area)
surface irregularities deemed detrimental to appearance (as an example about 30-40% of all 2006-W $50 proof buffalo's have a milky haze usually around the periphery)
marks
contact friction on high points (as an example, many proof gold eagles look 70 but if you tilt and use maginification you will see a flat spot or what appears to be rub on the knee, breast area, torch, or eagle)
strike quality and completeness
>>



Thanks John, and Happy New Year to you too!

oldwestgold

I have 69's that are flawless under 10X mag and have seen 70's with minute flaws such as microscopic nicks or slight inner rim ejection damage, so in my book at least, there is no difference and will never "pay up" for a 70 grade. However, I will gladly sell my 70's for a premium if someone is willing to pay.

CertifiedGoldCoins

<< <i>But if you look at our "grade the coin" threads there is always a huge spread in the guesses. Most forum members can't grade. >>

Beg to differ. The problem is that grading (or authenticating) a three dimensional coin from two dimensional photographs of varying quality (and with no opportunity to see the edge) leads to differences of opinion. I avoid most such threads, for that reason.

Coxe

Even if there is a technical and even reliable way of distinguishing a 69 form a 70, I don't think the speculation that the valuation difference will be maintained longer term. Do note that any improperly holdered 70 is in a tomb that will not be cracked. There is a necessary dilution of quality as those tombstone numbers increase. If you believe PCGS never made a mistake in a 70 grade, will never do so, and that there is 100% QA that will ensure grading standards never drift, I sure would like to kow what flavor kool-ade you are drinking. Also don't thnk the dismissal of the notion that resubmitted (with impeccably careful handling) 70s will fractionally come back as 69s is valid. It might happen, and I expect it would, but I don't know of anyone who has tested it. There should be a relatively common 70 coin that doesn't command huge money that could be used in a completely blind and random way. Collect and value what you collect as you like. There certainly is a longer term risk in holding 70 material. And there is no way to mitigate that risk.

notwilight

Coxe, Your arguments apply even moreso to dozens to top pop morgans, buffalso, trade dollars and every other classic coin. Look at the difference in price between a 31-S buffalo in 66 and 67. Many multiples as opposed to percent in the case of the 69 and 70 buffalo gold.

--Jerry

notwilight

<< <i>i got in at the right time with collecting the buffalos. started from the begining.2006-2008 proofs

i thought paying $1280.00 for a 2008 first strike pr70 dcam was high,but if you break it down its a hair over 100.00 for a first strike 70.

if I put this on e-bay i think i would at least get my money back. and this would be before the sell out.

can i tell from a 69 and a 70 .... HELL NO !!!! >>



If you bought a 2008 PR70DCAM FS for $1280 I'll give you a 50% profit right now. --Jerry

Bikingnut

The difference is what it will cost you. I would bet that if you took a Pf 69 and submitted it enough times, eventually it would come back in a 70 holder. JMO

Dennis

RYK

I would bet that if you took a Pf 69 and submitted it enough times, eventually it would come back in a 70 holder. JMO

I would take you up on this. Perhaps some 69's would eventually 70, but many would not. However, I would bet that if you cracked a 70 from its holder and submitted it enough times (and in many cases one more time), it would 69. Has anyone ever cracked out a 70 to test this?

TwoSides2aCoin

Sir RYK, I know it's illegal and all and the odds can be 1/1 , or 9/5
I'll be taking those same bets. I'd give 5 to one

I reserve the right to increase the odds in order to hedge.

Coxe

<< <i>Coxe, Your arguments apply even moreso to dozens to top pop morgans, buffalso, trade dollars and every other classic coin. Look at the difference in price between a 31-S buffalo in 66 and 67. Many multiples as opposed to percent in the case of the 69 and 70 buffalo gold.

--Jerry >>



Of course it can apply anywhere in the hobby where adjacent grades present a huge jump in valuation. Big difference though is that more collectors will discriminate say an 1887-S gem Morgan than some grade 70 coin. Dilution by gradeflation will bring MS64 up to MS65, but in doing so the real gem gets a boost to MS66, really just a valuation adjustment. There is no head room for 70 grades to do that. Dilution is inherenly distructive to the community of 70 graded coins. What you see today with ICG or NGC 70 you will, most assuredly, see with PCGS 70 at some point in the future. While I am sure there are some fantstic specimens among those nominally perfect pieces, denying risk is denying an entropy analogy. No matter what you colelct, always judge based on your own instincts, appeal, and importantly developed understanding. That applies everywhere in the hobby, becasue money is its backbone.

notwilight

<< <i>The difference is what it will cost you. I would bet that if you took a Pf 69 and submitted it enough times, eventually it would come back in a 70 holder. JMO

Dennis >>



If it was that easy don't you think we would line up to do it? --Jerry

Treeman

The MAIN difference between a "69" and a "70" is REGISTRY POINTS, not eye appeal, and not perfection.
By the way, I have read on this board, repeatedly, that NGC 70 = PCGS 69, and also that NGC ALWAYS grades a point higher than PCGS, so it stands to reason that a PCGS 70 submitted to NGC would result in an NGC "71" !!!!!

Okay, I'm a Dork, no fair using logic, no fair bringing up Kool-Aid statements from previous threads, no fair looking at a lot of coins and noticing that some 69's are better than some 70's.......

Coxe

<< <i>The MAIN difference between a "69" and a "70" is REGISTRY POINTS, not eye appeal, and not perfection.
By the way, I have read on this board, repeatedly, that NGC 70 = PCGS 69, and also that NGC ALWAYS grades a point higher than PCGS, so it stands to reason that a PCGS 70 submitted to NGC would result in an NGC "71" !!!!!

Okay, I'm a Dork, no fair using logic, no fair bringing up Kool-Aid statements from previous threads, no fair looking at a lot of coins and noticing that some 69's are better than some 70's....... >>



That was my point. There is no way that a kool-ade claim is true that there are no 70s (per PCGS criteria) among the NGC and other peer 70 populations. This is further exacerbated by the, admittedly important, fact that PCGS won't evaluate a 70 for crossover. I'm sure there are folks among us that target precisely those deeply discounted NGC and ICG 70 slabs that look like they'd make the crackout grade at PCGS for some big scores. In time, the PCGS 70 pops are going to be a mix too, no matter how careful they seem to be.