<< <i>unlike Montana or Elway or Brady or Manning, Brett Favre has A LOT of critics. >>
First...Elway had TONS of critics until he won 2 SBs.
Second, when you win 2 or more Super Bowls, it's ok to be exempted from criticism.
Third, Favre is nowhere near a Top 10 QB of all time. The REASON he's overrated is because people would dare to put him on that list in the first place. If you told me he was a top 30 QB of all time, I wouldn't say he was overrated.
Fourth, Favre won the same amount of Super Bowls as Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler (and to be fair, Steve Young and Peyton Manning).
I certainly put Favre behind Joe Montana, John Elway, Troy Aikman, Tom Brady, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Otto Graham, Sammy Baugh, Johnny Unitas and Bart Starr at the very least, and can definitely name 7-10 more guys that I'd rather have start a game for me (Young and Manning would definitely be on that list). Anyone that would take him over any of those 12 is seriously overrating him. >>
If Farve would not have played all these years, his stats would not be hardly as good. The guy does not know when to retire! He is just making hisself look worse and worse!
If Farve would not have played all these years, his stats would not be hardly as good. The guy does not know when to retire! He is just making hisself look worse and worse!
Yeah he had an absolutely awful season last year, throwing for 4,200 yards, 28 TDs and 15 INTs, while leading the Pack to a 13-3 record, a divisional title and the NFC Championship game. How could he even consider returning for another year after a season like that one!!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>mm24, In all seriousness, are you offended by Favre playing just because it puts possibly and probably out of reach Manning's chance of catching his records? Because Favre is only one year older than Montana, Elway and Marino when they retired, and his arm and durability look fine to me. His decision making is another story, but that has been an issue his entire career save but a couple of years. >>
I can bet that manning will beat farves records, Manning is one of the greatest to ever play and has many years to go. I would take manning now over Farve when he actually was in his prime like 10 years ago. The point is that Farve is only playing now so Manning can not catch him in the record books. He is actually making himself look worse and worse every time he goes on the field!
<< <i>Favre over his career has averaged about as many yards per year and TDs per year as has Peyton Manning. If and when Manning gets to Favre's numbers when Manning is 39, are you going to say that Manning only got there because he played so many years? >>
No, I am going to say that because Manning is a better QB
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I agree that Manning is better but that doesn't mean that Favre is not a great QB or is overrated because Manning is better. Geesh, do you even care about football outside of Manning? >>
I am not saying Farve is bad, just not as good as Manning!
i don't know if the most overrated but he stunk out loud down the streach this year.
Fred
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This post is interesting and reading it leads me to wonder:
1. Which NFL quarterback has played in the most Superbowls?
Montana played (and won) four. Elway played in five (and won 2 out of 5) and came up three points short (in 1991? when the Bills won 10-7 in the AFC Championship game) from playing in 6. Aikmen played in three? Bradshaw played in four? Otto Graham played before the Superbowl but I recall played in 10 NFL Championship games.
Yes overated..The bad thing is during the offseason all we will here is will Brett retire or come back.I guess he will announce his retirement then change his mind in July.
I am a Denver fan and thus an Elway fan, so I am biased.
Elway lead three very medicore Denver teams to the 1987, 1988 and 1990 Superbowls. His team lost the 1991 AFC Championship game by 3 points to the Bills and could have easily made it to the 1991 Superbowl (which probably would have been another loss). Denver's team was very good and should have made it to the 1997 Superbowl, however they blew a playoff game they should have won. Denver's 1998 and 1999 Superbowl teams were very good and Elway lead the teams to victories in the Superbowls those two years.
He also had multiple 4th quarter comebacks to lead his team to victory in the regular season and in the playoffs (remember Cleveland). No matter how medicore the Denver teams he took the field with one could always expect that Elway could pull a rabbit out of a hat and obtain a win.
Favre is nowhere near a Top 10 QB of all time. The REASON he's overrated is because people would dare to put him on that list in the first place. If you told me he was a top 30 QB of all time, I wouldn't say he was overrated.
Fourth, Favre won the same amount of Super Bowls as Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler (and to be fair, Steve Young and Peyton Manning).
I certainly put Favre behind Joe Montana, John Elway, Troy Aikman, Tom Brady, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Otto Graham, Sammy Baugh, Johnny Unitas and Bart Starr at the very least, and can definitely name 7-10 more guys that I'd rather have start a game for me (Young and Manning would definitely be on that list). Anyone that would take him over any of those 12 is seriously overrating him. >>
I couldn't put it any better than that myself. I love Brett Facre and he was always fun to watch. But he is on my short list as one of the All-Time most over rated QB's. Its a toss up between him and Marino. I always thought Elway was an overrated choker as well.
As for the guy with all the Man Love for Peyton Manning? True he is one of the best in the game today ( Brady being his only peer), But lets not get carried away. ALL the Modern day QB's and their big numbers and records are more due to the rule changes that were made to promote more scoring and passing in the NFL, than anything else. Many if not most of these "Cream Puff" Modern day QB's would NEVER have those kind of numbers and stats in the "Dead Ball " era of pro football.
Hell, even the nobody QB's can throw for 3000 yards when you tie the hands of the defense in order to give a decissive edge to the offense.
While Manning may be in the Top 10 Modern Day QB list. He is far from making my my top 10 All-Time list. ONLY one Modern day QB even make the top 10 All-Time list in my book and Thats Joe Montana. When manning has four rings and makes the game winning drives in the big games like Montana then you might be able to mention his name in the same Breath. Right now he's just one of the better QB's in the league. Hype, numbers(Stats) and TV commercials don't cut it in my book.
Either way ain't none of them no Roger Staubach, the greatest I ever saw play.
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Brett Favre has had a great career. One of the best. Not as good as Montana or Marino; but really good. He needs to stop being above the game with his prolonged playing/retirement periods. It's not fair to the teams he plays for. I know one thing for sure. Elway got his rings because of longevity. You can say Reggie White or whatever for Favre, but one thing is for sure- Elway doesn't sniff the trophy if it was not for the league dominating play of Terrell Davis.... Just to add; I am a big John Elway fan. Some of his comebacks in the 4th QTR were fantastic. Just to stir the pot--take away Peyton Manning's super bowl ring and his playoffs have not been very good in his career at all- borderline terrible. He still has something to prove in my mind. I'm sure someone on these boards can pull up Manning's awesome career playoff numbers. Mickey71
Elway got his rings because of a 2000 yard rusher. Which is not to say Elway was not a great QB, he was.
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<< <i>For the member who asked, Peyton Manning I believe is 7-7 in the post season.
As for those who wouldn't dare put Favre in a Top 20 list, I would kindly request that each of you man up and name all 20 on your list and stop writing in vague generalities. I am not a Favre fan by any means and when I spent many hours pouring through the records some time ago, I had a very hard time pushing him out of the Top 12, though I convinced myself using qualitative factors that he didn't belong that high. In fact, he probably does. He is NOT in any way shape or form a Top 5 QB in my opinion and that personal perspective will never change. But it was in 2004 (I think) that ESPN listed him as the 4th best of all time, having consulted with their entire staff.
In any event, please name the names. For those of you unaware of the site, use pro-football-reference.com to comb through the statistical history of QBs. >>
I have little to no problem with him at #13 as I listed him above (and named who should be ahead of him). I started this thread because people keep saying one of the best ever...which is not the case.
Third, Favre is nowhere near a Top 10 QB of all time. The REASON he's overrated is because people would dare to put him on that list in the first place. If you told me he was a top 30 QB of all time, I wouldn't say he was overrated.
Vito,
Your previous statement above, though, would seem to indicate that you wouldn't consider Favre anywhere near a #13 QB either...if as you now say you think he merits a ranking somewhere between #10 and #15 all time, then we agree after all. Your statement above seemed raher confusing, though, with regard to your previous post, as it implied that you considered Favre far closer to #30 than to #10 (or 13th) all time.
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<< <i>Third, Favre is nowhere near a Top 10 QB of all time. The REASON he's overrated is because people would dare to put him on that list in the first place. If you told me he was a top 30 QB of all time, I wouldn't say he was overrated.
Vito,
Your previous statement above, though, would seem to indicate that you wouldn't consider Favre anywhere near a #13 QB either...if as you now say you think he merits a ranking somewhere between #10 and #15 all time, then we agree after all. Your statement above seemed raher confusing, though, with regard to your previous post, as it implied that you considered Favre far closer to #30 than to #10 (or 13th) all time. >>
I could go anywhere from 13 down to near 30...but certainly not top 10. In order to be overrated, people must consistently talk about you being better than you are. I hear everywhere that Favre is one of the best of all time and I think that's somewhat ridiculous.
I could go anywhere from 13 down to near 30...but certainly not top 10. In order to be overrated, people must consistently talk about you being better than you are. I hear everywhere that Favre is one of the best of all time and I think that's somewhat ridiculous.
There is a BIG difference between being ranked #13 or being ranked #30. And if, in your own words, you have no problem with ranking Favre #13 ALL TIME, then you are, in effect, saying he IS one of the best all time QBs..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I could go anywhere from 13 down to near 30...but certainly not top 10. In order to be overrated, people must consistently talk about you being better than you are. I hear everywhere that Favre is one of the best of all time and I think that's somewhat ridiculous.
There is a BIG difference between being ranked #13 or being ranked #30. And if, in your own words, you have no problem with ranking Favre #13 ALL TIME, then you are, in effect, saying he IS one of the best all time QBs.. >>
I disagree. People say to me "best ever" and "best I ever saw" or "gutsiest" etc. He is none of those things in my opinion. Thus, people overrate him. I'm done fighting Grote Let's be friends LOL.
< I could go anywhere from 13 down to near 30...but certainly not top 10. In order to be overrated, people must consistently talk about you being better than you are. I hear everywhere that Favre is one of the best of all time and I think that's somewhat ridiculous.
There is a BIG difference between being ranked #13 or being ranked #30. And if, in your own words, you have no problem with ranking Favre #13 ALL TIME, then you are, in effect, saying he IS one of the best all time QBs.. >>
I disagree. People say to me "best ever" and "best I ever saw" or "gutsiest" etc. He is none of those things in my opinion. Thus, people overrate him. I'm done fighting Grote Let's be friends LOL.
I wouldn't classify him as best ever, either, more like top 12-15, IMHO. When he was in his prime, he was special to watch.
No hard feelings at all, Mike..I always enjoy some good sports talk, and enjoy the friendly banter. I don't take any of this personal..happy new year, man...
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<< <i>For the member who asked, Peyton Manning I believe is 7-7 in the post season.
As for those who wouldn't dare put Favre in a Top 20 list, I would kindly request that each of you man up and name all 20 on your list and stop writing in vague generalities. I am not a Favre fan by any means and when I spent many hours pouring through the records some time ago, I had a very hard time pushing him out of the Top 12, though I convinced myself using qualitative factors that he didn't belong that high. In fact, he probably does. He is NOT in any way shape or form a Top 5 QB in my opinion and that personal perspective will never change. But it was in 2004 (I think) that ESPN listed him as the 4th best of all time, having consulted with their entire staff.
In any event, please name the names. For those of you unaware of the site, use pro-football-reference.com to comb through the statistical history of QBs. >>
Here you go. No certain order of QB's I would rather have on the field to consistantly get me deep into the playoffs and championship games. Stats and numbers are nice on paper but are as overrated as Favre when it comes to me picking a Field General that gives me the best chance to reach the promise land year after year.
Sammy Baugh Johnny Unitas Roger Staubach Otto Graham Bart Starr YA Tittle Kenny Stabler Terry Bradshaw Joe Montana Troy Aikman Jim Kelly Tom Brady Steve Young
I wonder if the speed of the game is so different, the play calling and complexity of things, the more spread out formations, the bigger (taller) lineman, would prevent players like Baugh and Graham and etc from excelling in today's game. Not their fault, but who knows if the competitiveness of making the league now as opposed to 50 years ago wouldn't squeeze a number of these guys out of the league if they were coming up today.
I'm not sure I wouldn't take most modern day QB's over a Baugh or Graham to run today's spread offenses.
Since no one can agree, I'm going to bring everyone together. Michael Vick was a dog killer and a bad quarterback and Favre was better than Neil O'Donnell.
<< <i>Farve is the most over rated player ever to play football. >>
Funny...I was about to say the same thing about Peyton Manning.
mickeymantle24, your obsession with Manning, coupled with your inability to even spell the name of the player you're bashing correctly really makes you lose all credibility here.
Look at the talent that Manning has had around him during his career. Then compare it to Favre.
No comparison.
I'm not saying that Favre is the best ever...but if you can name 29 other QB's who you'd rank higher ... with a straight face ... I'll give you a cookie. Discuss.
<< <i>Farve is the most over rated player ever to play football. >>
Funny...I was about to say the same thing about Peyton Manning.
mickeymantle24, your obsession with Manning, coupled with your inability to even spell the name of the player you're bashing correctly really makes you lose all credibility here.
Look at the talent that Manning has had around him during his career. Then compare it to Favre.
No comparison.
I'm not saying that Favre is the best ever...but if you can name 29 other QB's who you'd rank higher ... with a straight face ... I'll give you a cookie. Discuss. >>
Well said Craig. I agree. If someone is gonna hate on someone, at least spell their name right. I get the same ting from all the Emmitt haters. They love to hate and detract but spell his name Emmit or Emitt...what a joke lol
Jason Garrett did as well as Aikman on those teams.
Bigreddog, how many of those guys consistently got deeper in the playoffs, compared to Favre? Seems you are giving them all the credit, and neglecting the impact of their teammates.
Favre did more than some of those guys, despite having less talent around him.
Terry Bradshaw? You are smoking something. Yeah, they got to the SUper Bowl four times, but with the best defense ever, HOF RB, and HOF receiver.
I know you are a Cowboy fan, so it blurs your judgement, but...
Jason Garrett had a 6-3 record as a starter with the Cowboys, which is a higher W% than Aikman's.
Of course, NINE games is a small sample size, but then you use a similar sample size when looking at playoff records. Either both those sample sizes are flawed, or neither are. Using Garrett's W/L compared to Aikman's is about as valid as using's Aikman's playoff record compared to Favre. It can't be both ways.
Favre's primary playoff failures came on the road, or as an elderly player. He was 3-6 on the road, three of those losses coming at Dallas when Dallas was clearly a better team, and one at St. Louis when St. Louis was the greatest show on turf. It is difficult for ANY QB to come into circumstances like that and walk away with a win.
Aikman couldn't do it either in tough circumstances. He was 1-4 on the road in the playoffs. It just happens that he had a better team around him and they had home field and thus had easier match ups. He should have a better playoff record.
I would have loved to see Aikman continue to play with those Cowboy teams at the end. Any time they would have squeaked into the playoffs, he would have MORE playoff losses. He never did anything with his team when his supporting cast dwindled.
In his prime Brett Farve was a fantastic quarterback with a rifle arm and tremendous leadership qualities. The only reason that his pick total is slightly elevated is that he's always been a risk taker frequently throwing the ball in traffic.
There is no modern day quarterback I would rather have in his prime under center than Brett Farve.
In my opinion Manning is the most over rated. During his career he's thrived because of the Colts phenominal supporting cast and solid offensive line play. When he has to move his plodding feet at all in the pocket he becomes an above average quarterback.
Favre is a great QB as far as durability and being a "Gamer" goes, he is a gunslinger who withstood the test of time in the NFL nothing more nothing less.
He will go out and throw for 300+ and 3Td's but will also throw you 3 int's as well, anyone that says they would take Favre as their go to guy to lead a late 4th quarter drive to win the game is on crack.
I disagree with your assessment. Favre was excellent in late drives. When things broke down he was good at picking up the key first down on either a run or pass. He got the job done. He took some chances, and they paid off much more than not. He could do more with less than almost any QB on that list.
You are remembering him more for his last six years, instead of his prime years.
Favre is going to end his career with never having had a HOF RB, TE, or WR. I don't think he will have a HOF offensive lineman either.
Despite the lack of elite skill at those key offensive positions, how could his teams have won that many games if he was 'giving' so many games away with INT's, and was bad late in the game? He must not have been costing them too much.
Remember, some picks are as effective as punting.
His greatest crime was that he was unfortunate enough to be playing at the same time as the best team in the league(Dallas), and not being able to beat the vastly superior team on the road in the playoffs.
He will end his career having never thrown a TD pass to a HOF receiver, nor with a HOF RB in the backfield. How many other all time QB's can say that?
<< <i>The dude is the Nolan Ryan of football. People love him because he has some impressive stats (all time yardage leader etc) but like Ryan (most walks in MLB history to go along with most strikeouts), I could name plenty of people that I would take to start a meaningful game before Brett Favre. >>
Ridiculous comparison.
Sure Ryan had the most BB's to go along with the most K's. How many other pitchers threw as many complete game no-hitters? Let me say again....complete game (9 innings). While other pitchers were in the dugout after 6, Ryan threw a ton of complete games. You stay in as long as he did, and pitch what....24 season? like he did...you're bound to compile a load of walks, regardless of how good you are.
As for Favre...he's s gun slinger. Same as Ryan....you throw that many passes, over that length of a career...you're bound to throw a ton of INT's to go along with your ton of TD's.
It's basic common sense. Something I see failed many here.
So he didnt have a HOF WR or RB behind him, big deal. Brady won his Super Bowls without a HOF WR or RB behind him either, sure he had solid offensive and defensive players around him as did Favre.
Sterling Sharpe? Antonio Freeman? Donald Driver?
And Im not buying into this crap-
" you throw that many passes, over that length of a career...you're bound to throw a ton of INT's to go along with your ton of TD's."
So he threw alot of passes and that gives him a free pass on INT? Gimme a break, how many times have you seen him just throw the ball up and it being a crap shoot wether a WR will make a play or it gets picked?
<< <i>I wonder if the speed of the game is so different, the play calling and complexity of things, the more spread out formations, the bigger (taller) lineman, would prevent players like Baugh and Graham and etc from excelling in today's game. Not their fault, but who knows if the competitiveness of making the league now as opposed to 50 years ago wouldn't squeeze a number of these guys out of the league if they were coming up today.
I'm not sure I wouldn't take most modern day QB's over a Baugh or Graham to run today's spread offenses.
John >>
John, in my opinion I think those guys would do just fine as their "natural ability" was there and give them the training and chance to learn these offenses of todays game and I believe they would do OK.
If you took Baugh & Graham right out of 1940 or 1950 and dropped them right into a game without the training they would get eaten alive, if however if you took Brady or Manning and dumped them right into a 1940 game they would do just fine- if they could get used to the brutality.
<< <i>If you took Baugh & Graham right out of 1940 or 1950 and dropped them right into a game without the training they would get eaten alive, if however if you took Brady or Manning and dumped them right into a 1940 game they would do just fine- if they could get used to the brutality. >>
and if they could play quarterback, defensive back and punter at the same time
<< <i>If you took Baugh & Graham right out of 1940 or 1950 and dropped them right into a game without the training they would get eaten alive, if however if you took Brady or Manning and dumped them right into a 1940 game they would do just fine- if they could get used to the brutality. >>
and if they could play quarterback, defensive back and punter at the same time >>
I love the guy and the Steelers but Bradshaw was the most overated QB of all time. He did play well in THE big game but he was maybe #10 on the reasons why they team won. The D and skill players they had were some of the best assembled ever.
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He threw INT's, but those INT's are far outweighed on the ledger with all the other good things he did. I disagreed with your assessment on him not being good on late drives, when he was actually darn good at that(especially when he was more mobile).
Perk, you are putting Brady and Montana into the mix directly now. Much of that post I wrote is in comparison to guys like Aikman(who by the way is much more overrated than Favre, especially by Cowboy fans).
Favre had some decent receivers. Freeman and Driver were punt returners to start out with. They were not in the mold of Rice, Moss, largent, Lofton, Irvin, Stallworth, etc... Favre didn't have a guy like that.
His RB's were average, and much of what they got was the result of Favre's presence and the strong passing game.
Favre's skill position guys are inferior to many of the other top QB's, and that is quite true!
Brady didn't have much to work with either, I have no disagreement there(Aikman is a far different story).
If you are asking specifically in a last drive between Montana, Brady, and Favre...I would take Montana. Brady may be ahead too, I just want to see him a little longer. Of course, last minute drives are often only necesarry if the QB wasn't doing his job good enough in the first 58 minutes. Not that Brady or Montana fall into that category, but a guy like Aikman might(who was bailed out by the best supporting cast of the past 20 years).
History : Namath (one big win, not much else, tons of INT's, 50% completion, his team's W-L record is below .500 as a starter).
Modern : Romo (he's terrible in December games when they count the most). Great fantasy QB however!
Favre's INT's should be looked at in the right context. His career int % rate is somewhat low in comparision to other QB's in the same era.
He threw a lot of career INT's but he also had the most pass attempts too, along with the most yardage, most TD's, most starts, etc...
The volume of passing attempts creates the chance for more INT's. You really need to look at the INT ratio to better judge a passer.
Favre did throw quite a lot of passes up for grabs downfield, but not anymore than Elway, Bradshaw, Hadl, Marino, Fouts, etc....
Favre has played more games at QB in bad weather, than any other QB in history too.
I do think some sportwriters and announcers rate Favre too high all-time based purely on his career longevity and the gunslinger persona they are always trying to exploit.
To me, he's not overrated, I know exactly what I'm getting if I'm watching him play... the good, the bad, and the sometimes ugly.
Overall, I'd put Favre about 8th all-time on my greatest QB list. It's hard to call any player overrated that's won three MVP's. Is Favre the greatest QB ever, NO, not by a long shot.
Favre has played more games at QB in bad weather, than any other QB in history too.
An excellent point that has not been previously brought up. And while I'd personally rank Peyton Manning higher than Favre on the all-time list, he's also had the benefit of playing all his home games inside a comfy dome, sort of like the football equivalent of Jim Rice playing at Fenway Park.
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The Weather! The biggest weather factor is the wind, then the wet stuff. People forget how much havoc the wind can play on passing attempts.
People hail the overrated Troy Aikman's accuracy....sure when the elements are not in the way, and of course when you have the best supporting cast in the last 25 years.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>unlike Montana or Elway or Brady or Manning, Brett Favre has A LOT of critics. >>
First...Elway had TONS of critics until he won 2 SBs.
Second, when you win 2 or more Super Bowls, it's ok to be exempted from criticism.
Third, Favre is nowhere near a Top 10 QB of all time. The REASON he's overrated is because people would dare to put him on that list in the first place. If you told me he was a top 30 QB of all time, I wouldn't say he was overrated.
Fourth, Favre won the same amount of Super Bowls as Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler (and to be fair, Steve Young and Peyton Manning).
I certainly put Favre behind Joe Montana, John Elway, Troy Aikman, Tom Brady, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Otto Graham, Sammy Baugh, Johnny Unitas and Bart Starr at the very least, and can definitely name 7-10 more guys that I'd rather have start a game for me (Young and Manning would definitely be on that list). Anyone that would take him over any of those 12 is seriously overrating him. >>
If Farve would not have played all these years, his stats would not be hardly as good. The guy does not know when to retire! He is just making hisself look worse and worse!
Yeah he had an absolutely awful season last year, throwing for 4,200 yards, 28 TDs and 15 INTs, while leading the Pack to a 13-3 record, a divisional title and the NFC Championship game. How could he even consider returning for another year after a season like that one!!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>mm24,
In all seriousness, are you offended by Favre playing just because it puts possibly and probably out of reach Manning's chance of catching his records? Because Favre is only one year older than Montana, Elway and Marino when they retired, and his arm and durability look fine to me. His decision making is another story, but that has been an issue his entire career save but a couple of years. >>
I can bet that manning will beat farves records, Manning is one of the greatest to ever play and has many years to go. I would take manning now over Farve when he actually was in his prime like 10 years ago. The point is that Farve is only playing now so Manning can not catch him in the record books. He is actually making himself look worse and worse every time he goes on the field!
<< <i>Favre over his career has averaged about as many yards per year and TDs per year as has Peyton Manning. If and when Manning gets to Favre's numbers when Manning is 39, are you going to say that Manning only got there because he played so many years? >>
No, I am going to say that because Manning is a better QB
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I agree that Manning is better but that doesn't mean that Favre is not a great QB or is overrated because Manning is better. Geesh, do you even care about football outside of Manning? >>
I am not saying Farve is bad, just not as good as Manning!
discuss.
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looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
1. Which NFL quarterback has played in the most Superbowls?
Montana played (and won) four. Elway played in five (and won 2 out of 5) and came up three points short (in 1991? when the Bills won 10-7 in the AFC Championship game) from playing in 6. Aikmen played in three? Bradshaw played in four? Otto Graham played before the Superbowl but I recall played in 10 NFL Championship games.
So who has played in the most?
we will here is will Brett retire or come back.I guess he will
announce his retirement then change his mind in July.
I am a Denver fan and thus an Elway fan, so I am biased.
Elway lead three very medicore Denver teams to the 1987, 1988 and 1990 Superbowls. His team lost the 1991 AFC Championship game by 3 points to the Bills and could have easily made it to the 1991 Superbowl (which probably would have been another loss). Denver's team was very good and should have made it to the 1997 Superbowl, however they blew a playoff game they should have won. Denver's 1998 and 1999 Superbowl teams were very good and Elway lead the teams to victories in the Superbowls those two years.
He also had multiple 4th quarter comebacks to lead his team to victory in the regular season and in the playoffs (remember Cleveland). No matter how medicore the Denver teams he took the field with one could always expect that Elway could pull a rabbit out of a hat and obtain a win.
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Favre is nowhere near a Top 10 QB of all time. The REASON he's overrated is because people would dare to put him on that list in the first place. If you told me he was a top 30 QB of all time, I wouldn't say he was overrated.
Fourth, Favre won the same amount of Super Bowls as Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler (and to be fair, Steve Young and Peyton Manning).
I certainly put Favre behind Joe Montana, John Elway, Troy Aikman, Tom Brady, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Otto Graham, Sammy Baugh, Johnny Unitas and Bart Starr at the very least, and can definitely name 7-10 more guys that I'd rather have start a game for me (Young and Manning would definitely be on that list). Anyone that would take him over any of those 12 is seriously overrating him. >>
I couldn't put it any better than that myself. I love Brett Facre and he was always fun to watch. But he is on my short list as one of the All-Time most over rated QB's. Its a toss up between him and Marino. I always thought Elway was an overrated choker as well.
As for the guy with all the Man Love for Peyton Manning? True he is one of the best in the game today ( Brady being his only peer), But lets not get carried away. ALL the Modern day QB's and their big numbers and records are more due to the rule changes that were made to promote more scoring and passing in the NFL, than anything else. Many if not most of these "Cream Puff" Modern day QB's would NEVER have those kind of numbers and stats in the "Dead Ball " era of pro football.
Hell, even the nobody QB's can throw for 3000 yards when you tie the hands of the defense in order to give a decissive edge to the offense.
While Manning may be in the Top 10 Modern Day QB list. He is far from making my my top 10 All-Time list. ONLY one Modern day QB even make the top 10 All-Time list in my book and Thats Joe Montana. When manning has four rings and makes the game winning drives in the big games like Montana then you might be able to mention his name in the same Breath. Right now he's just one of the better QB's in the league. Hype, numbers(Stats) and TV commercials don't cut it in my book.
Either way ain't none of them no Roger Staubach, the greatest I ever saw play.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Mickey71
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>For the member who asked, Peyton Manning I believe is 7-7 in the post season.
As for those who wouldn't dare put Favre in a Top 20 list, I would kindly request that each of you man up and name all 20 on your list and stop writing in vague generalities. I am not a Favre fan by any means and when I spent many hours pouring through the records some time ago, I had a very hard time pushing him out of the Top 12, though I convinced myself using qualitative factors that he didn't belong that high. In fact, he probably does. He is NOT in any way shape or form a Top 5 QB in my opinion and that personal perspective will never change. But it was in 2004 (I think) that ESPN listed him as the 4th best of all time, having consulted with their entire staff.
In any event, please name the names. For those of you unaware of the site, use pro-football-reference.com to comb through the statistical history of QBs. >>
I have little to no problem with him at #13 as I listed him above (and named who should be ahead of him). I started this thread because people keep saying one of the best ever...which is not the case.
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Vito,
Your previous statement above, though, would seem to indicate that you wouldn't consider Favre anywhere near a #13 QB either...if as you now say you think he merits a ranking somewhere between #10 and #15 all time, then we agree after all. Your statement above seemed raher confusing, though, with regard to your previous post, as it implied that you considered Favre far closer to #30 than to #10 (or 13th) all time.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Third, Favre is nowhere near a Top 10 QB of all time. The REASON he's overrated is because people would dare to put him on that list in the first place. If you told me he was a top 30 QB of all time, I wouldn't say he was overrated.
Vito,
Your previous statement above, though, would seem to indicate that you wouldn't consider Favre anywhere near a #13 QB either...if as you now say you think he merits a ranking somewhere between #10 and #15 all time, then we agree after all. Your statement above seemed raher confusing, though, with regard to your previous post, as it implied that you considered Favre far closer to #30 than to #10 (or 13th) all time. >>
I could go anywhere from 13 down to near 30...but certainly not top 10. In order to be overrated, people must consistently talk about you being better than you are. I hear everywhere that Favre is one of the best of all time and I think that's somewhat ridiculous.
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There is a BIG difference between being ranked #13 or being ranked #30. And if, in your own words, you have no problem with ranking Favre #13 ALL TIME, then you are, in effect, saying he IS one of the best all time QBs..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I could go anywhere from 13 down to near 30...but certainly not top 10. In order to be overrated, people must consistently talk about you being better than you are. I hear everywhere that Favre is one of the best of all time and I think that's somewhat ridiculous.
There is a BIG difference between being ranked #13 or being ranked #30. And if, in your own words, you have no problem with ranking Favre #13 ALL TIME, then you are, in effect, saying he IS one of the best all time QBs.. >>
I disagree. People say to me "best ever" and "best I ever saw" or "gutsiest" etc. He is none of those things in my opinion. Thus, people overrate him. I'm done fighting Grote
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There is a BIG difference between being ranked #13 or being ranked #30. And if, in your own words, you have no problem with ranking Favre #13 ALL TIME, then you are, in effect, saying he IS one of the best all time QBs.. >>
I disagree. People say to me "best ever" and "best I ever saw" or "gutsiest" etc. He is none of those things in my opinion. Thus, people overrate him. I'm done fighting Grote Let's be friends LOL.
I wouldn't classify him as best ever, either, more like top 12-15, IMHO. When he was in his prime, he was special to watch.
No hard feelings at all, Mike..I always enjoy some good sports talk, and enjoy the friendly banter. I don't take any of this personal..happy new year, man...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>For the member who asked, Peyton Manning I believe is 7-7 in the post season.
As for those who wouldn't dare put Favre in a Top 20 list, I would kindly request that each of you man up and name all 20 on your list and stop writing in vague generalities. I am not a Favre fan by any means and when I spent many hours pouring through the records some time ago, I had a very hard time pushing him out of the Top 12, though I convinced myself using qualitative factors that he didn't belong that high. In fact, he probably does. He is NOT in any way shape or form a Top 5 QB in my opinion and that personal perspective will never change. But it was in 2004 (I think) that ESPN listed him as the 4th best of all time, having consulted with their entire staff.
In any event, please name the names. For those of you unaware of the site, use pro-football-reference.com to comb through the statistical history of QBs. >>
Here you go. No certain order of QB's I would rather have on the field to consistantly get me deep into the playoffs and championship games. Stats and numbers are nice on paper but are as overrated as Favre when it comes to me picking a Field General that gives me the best chance to reach the promise land year after year.
Sammy Baugh
Johnny Unitas
Roger Staubach
Otto Graham
Bart Starr
YA Tittle
Kenny Stabler
Terry Bradshaw
Joe Montana
Troy Aikman
Jim Kelly
Tom Brady
Steve Young
I'm not sure I wouldn't take most modern day QB's over a Baugh or Graham to run today's spread offenses.
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
<< <i>Farve is the most over rated player ever to play football. >>
Funny...I was about to say the same thing about Peyton Manning.
mickeymantle24, your obsession with Manning, coupled with your inability to even spell the name of the player you're bashing correctly really makes you lose all credibility here.
Look at the talent that Manning has had around him during his career. Then compare it to Favre.
No comparison.
I'm not saying that Favre is the best ever...but if you can name 29 other QB's who you'd rank higher ... with a straight face ... I'll give you a cookie.
Discuss.
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<< <i>Farve is the most over rated player ever to play football. >>
Funny...I was about to say the same thing about Peyton Manning.
mickeymantle24, your obsession with Manning, coupled with your inability to even spell the name of the player you're bashing correctly really makes you lose all credibility here.
Look at the talent that Manning has had around him during his career. Then compare it to Favre.
No comparison.
I'm not saying that Favre is the best ever...but if you can name 29 other QB's who you'd rank higher ... with a straight face ... I'll give you a cookie.
Discuss. >>
Well said Craig. I agree. If someone is gonna hate on someone, at least spell their name right. I get the same ting from all the Emmitt haters. They love to hate and detract but spell his name Emmit or Emitt...what a joke lol
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Bigreddog, how many of those guys consistently got deeper in the playoffs, compared to Favre? Seems you are giving them all the credit, and neglecting the impact of their teammates.
Favre did more than some of those guys, despite having less talent around him.
Terry Bradshaw? You are smoking something. Yeah, they got to the SUper Bowl four times, but with the best defense ever, HOF RB, and HOF receiver.
I know you are a Cowboy fan, so it blurs your judgement, but...
Jason Garrett had a 6-3 record as a starter with the Cowboys, which is a higher W% than Aikman's.
Of course, NINE games is a small sample size, but then you use a similar sample size when looking at playoff records. Either both those sample sizes are flawed, or neither are. Using Garrett's W/L compared to Aikman's is about as valid as using's Aikman's playoff record compared to Favre. It can't be both ways.
Favre's primary playoff failures came on the road, or as an elderly player. He was 3-6 on the road, three of those losses coming at Dallas when Dallas was clearly a better team, and one at St. Louis when St. Louis was the greatest show on turf. It is difficult for ANY QB to come into circumstances like that and walk away with a win.
Aikman couldn't do it either in tough circumstances. He was 1-4 on the road in the playoffs. It just happens that he had a better team around him and they had home field and thus had easier match ups. He should have a better playoff record.
I would have loved to see Aikman continue to play with those Cowboy teams at the end. Any time they would have squeaked into the playoffs, he would have MORE playoff losses. He never did anything with his team when his supporting cast dwindled.
There is no modern day quarterback I would rather have in his prime under center than Brett Farve.
In my opinion Manning is the most over rated. During his career he's thrived because of the Colts phenominal supporting cast and solid offensive line play. When he has to move his plodding feet at all in the pocket he becomes an above average quarterback.
Sorry, gotta go with Joe Montana on this one.
He will go out and throw for 300+ and 3Td's but will also throw you 3 int's as well, anyone that says they would take Favre as their go to guy to lead a late 4th quarter drive to win the game is on crack.
I disagree with your assessment. Favre was excellent in late drives. When things broke down he was good at picking up the key first down on either a run or pass. He got the job done. He took some chances, and they paid off much more than not. He could do more with less than almost any QB on that list.
You are remembering him more for his last six years, instead of his prime years.
Favre is going to end his career with never having had a HOF RB, TE, or WR. I don't think he will have a HOF offensive lineman either.
Despite the lack of elite skill at those key offensive positions, how could his teams have won that many games if he was 'giving' so many games away with INT's, and was bad late in the game? He must not have been costing them too much.
Remember, some picks are as effective as punting.
His greatest crime was that he was unfortunate enough to be playing at the same time as the best team in the league(Dallas), and not being able to beat the vastly superior team on the road in the playoffs.
He will end his career having never thrown a TD pass to a HOF receiver, nor with a HOF RB in the backfield. How many other all time QB's can say that?
He will end his career having never thrown a TD pass to a HOF receiver, nor with a HOF RB in the backfield. How many other all time QB's can say that?
That fact is incredible.
Almost always stats are inflated by the top-tier HOF players that play with you (Emmitt Smith come to mind??)
<< <i>The dude is the Nolan Ryan of football. People love him because he has some impressive stats (all time yardage leader etc) but like Ryan (most walks in MLB history to go along with most strikeouts), I could name plenty of people that I would take to start a meaningful game before Brett Favre. >>
Ridiculous comparison.
Sure Ryan had the most BB's to go along with the most K's. How many other pitchers threw as many complete game no-hitters? Let me say again....complete game (9 innings). While other pitchers were in the dugout after 6, Ryan threw a ton of complete games. You stay in as long as he did, and pitch what....24 season? like he did...you're bound to compile a load of walks, regardless of how good you are.
As for Favre...he's s gun slinger. Same as Ryan....you throw that many passes, over that length of a career...you're bound to throw a ton of INT's to go along with your ton of TD's.
It's basic common sense. Something I see failed many here.
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Sterling Sharpe? Antonio Freeman? Donald Driver?
And Im not buying into this crap-
" you throw that many passes, over that length of a career...you're bound to throw a ton of INT's to go along with your ton of TD's."
So he threw alot of passes and that gives him a free pass on INT? Gimme a break, how many times have you seen him just throw the ball up and it being a crap shoot wether a WR will make a play or it gets picked?
Only twice in his lengthy career has he thrown fewer than 14 INT's and it was close- 13
Comparing that to Tom Brady who has never thrown more than 14 in a season.
Skin- game on the line and you need to drive 80 yards for a TD to win it would you take Favre over Tom Brady? Joe Montana?
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
<< <i>I wonder if the speed of the game is so different, the play calling and complexity of things, the more spread out formations, the bigger (taller) lineman, would prevent players like Baugh and Graham and etc from excelling in today's game. Not their fault, but who knows if the competitiveness of making the league now as opposed to 50 years ago wouldn't squeeze a number of these guys out of the league if they were coming up today.
I'm not sure I wouldn't take most modern day QB's over a Baugh or Graham to run today's spread offenses.
John >>
John, in my opinion I think those guys would do just fine as their "natural ability" was there and give them the training and chance to learn these offenses of todays game and I believe they would do OK.
If you took Baugh & Graham right out of 1940 or 1950 and dropped them right into a game without the training they would get eaten alive, if however if you took Brady or Manning and dumped them right into a 1940 game they would do just fine- if they could get used to the brutality.
<< <i>If you took Baugh & Graham right out of 1940 or 1950 and dropped them right into a game without the training they would get eaten alive, if however if you took Brady or Manning and dumped them right into a 1940 game they would do just fine- if they could get used to the brutality. >>
and if they could play quarterback, defensive back and punter at the same time
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Bill Walton in the NBA...by a long shot...
Erik
<< <i>
<< <i>If you took Baugh & Graham right out of 1940 or 1950 and dropped them right into a game without the training they would get eaten alive, if however if you took Brady or Manning and dumped them right into a 1940 game they would do just fine- if they could get used to the brutality. >>
and if they could play quarterback, defensive back and punter at the same time
Correct!
He threw INT's, but those INT's are far outweighed on the ledger with all the other good things he did. I disagreed with your assessment on him not being good on late drives, when he was actually darn good at that(especially when he was more mobile).
Perk, you are putting Brady and Montana into the mix directly now. Much of that post I wrote is in comparison to guys like Aikman(who by the way is much more overrated than Favre, especially by Cowboy fans).
Favre had some decent receivers. Freeman and Driver were punt returners to start out with. They were not in the mold of Rice, Moss, largent, Lofton, Irvin, Stallworth, etc... Favre didn't have a guy like that.
His RB's were average, and much of what they got was the result of Favre's presence and the strong passing game.
Favre's skill position guys are inferior to many of the other top QB's, and that is quite true!
Brady didn't have much to work with either, I have no disagreement there(Aikman is a far different story).
If you are asking specifically in a last drive between Montana, Brady, and Favre...I would take Montana. Brady may be ahead too, I just want to see him a little longer. Of course, last minute drives are often only necesarry if the QB wasn't doing his job good enough in the first 58 minutes. Not that Brady or Montana fall into that category, but a guy like Aikman might(who was bailed out by the best supporting cast of the past 20 years).
Modern : Romo (he's terrible in December games when they count the most). Great fantasy QB however!
Favre's INT's should be looked at in the right context. His career int % rate is somewhat low in comparision to other QB's in the same era.
He threw a lot of career INT's but he also had the most pass attempts too, along with the most yardage, most TD's, most starts, etc...
The volume of passing attempts creates the chance for more INT's.
You really need to look at the INT ratio to better judge a passer.
Favre did throw quite a lot of passes up for grabs downfield, but not anymore than Elway, Bradshaw, Hadl, Marino, Fouts, etc....
Favre has played more games at QB in bad weather, than any other QB in history too.
I do think some sportwriters and announcers rate Favre too high all-time based purely on his career longevity and the gunslinger persona they are always trying to exploit.
To me, he's not overrated, I know exactly what I'm getting if I'm watching him play... the good, the bad, and the sometimes ugly.
Overall, I'd put Favre about 8th all-time on my greatest QB list.
It's hard to call any player overrated that's won three MVP's.
Is Favre the greatest QB ever, NO, not by a long shot.
Favre has played more games at QB in bad weather, than any other QB in history too.
An excellent point that has not been previously brought up. And while I'd personally rank Peyton Manning higher than Favre on the all-time list, he's also had the benefit of playing all his home games inside a comfy dome, sort of like the football equivalent of Jim Rice playing at Fenway Park.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
People hail the overrated Troy Aikman's accuracy....sure when the elements are not in the way, and of course when you have the best supporting cast in the last 25 years.